US-Based EV Battery Recycling Company Predicts Material For 1M EVs a Year (politico.com) 67
Last year Redwood Materials announced a new program recycling EV batteries (including partnerships with Ford and Volvo). Now Politico reports that America's Department of Energy tentatively awarded them a $2 billion loan, "which the company says will allow it to produce enough battery materials to enable the production of more than a million electric vehicles a year."
The Nevada-based company said it plans to ultimately ramp up to producing 100 gigawatt-hours annually of ultra-thin battery-grade materials from both new and recycled sources in the United States for the first time." Redwood founder CEO JB Straubel, who previously worked at Tesla, said at an event announcing the loan that he had a "front row seat" while at the Elon Musk-helmed electric vehicle maker to "some of the bigger challenges the the entire industry would face as it scales," particularly around the battery materials supply chain. "It was somewhat clear even way back then, eight years ago, that this would be a really big bottleneck for the entire industry as it scaled," Straubel said....
Redwood plans to manufacture battery anodes, containing copper and graphite, and cathodes, containing all the critical metals in a battery — like lithium, nickel, and cobalt — amounting to nearly 80 percent of the materials cost of a lithium-ion battery.
A Detroit newspaper reports Ford will also announce plans Monday to help build a $2.5 billion electric-vehicle battery plant in Michigan.
In fact, this year in America some electric cars could become "as cheap as or cheaper than cars with internal combustion engines," reports the New York Times — specifically because of "increased competition, government incentives and falling prices for lithium and other battery materials."
Redwood plans to manufacture battery anodes, containing copper and graphite, and cathodes, containing all the critical metals in a battery — like lithium, nickel, and cobalt — amounting to nearly 80 percent of the materials cost of a lithium-ion battery.
A Detroit newspaper reports Ford will also announce plans Monday to help build a $2.5 billion electric-vehicle battery plant in Michigan.
In fact, this year in America some electric cars could become "as cheap as or cheaper than cars with internal combustion engines," reports the New York Times — specifically because of "increased competition, government incentives and falling prices for lithium and other battery materials."
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That's all fine and dandy, albeit optimistic, but is there a sufficiently large and widely available charging infrastructure?
I'm assuming they figure most people would be charging their vehicle in the garage of a typical suburban home. Installing a vehicle charger at every parking space at every apartment, rental property, and trailer park? Yeah, good luck with that ever happening.
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I was curious more about availability of charging stations along at least most used highways and routes.
When people want to travel, they usually can't take their homes and garages with them.
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There was a big federal infrastructure bill passed last year that specifically addressed this issue -by providing funding for building charging stations along the highways. It was discussed several times on Slashdot.
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I am sorry, I must have missed those. Can't keep up with everything :)
I'm actually glad things are moving forward. All we still need is a way to quickly charge batteries (say, from 20% to 80% in 30 minutes or less).
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Charging infrastructure has been building out for close to a decade but still a long way to go.
One important issue is that most of the networks do a GODAWFUL job of maintenance; only Tesla has been consistently pretty good about keeping their SuperChargers in operation
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I was curious more about availability of charging stations along at least most used highways and routes. When people want to travel, they usually can't take their homes and garages with them.
How many times a year do most people drive 200+ miles in a day? There is obviously a small percentage of people that do this regularly...but I would argue most people would do it only a few times each year, if that.
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I happen to know a couple people who go out every weekend, and yes, they drive 200+ miles in one session (they love the mountainside).
But even "a few times a year" is a problem, because it's inconvenient to plan your trips around charging station availability.
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Re: Charging infrastructure? (Score:2)
Yes, people donâ(TM)t want to buy a very expensive item that only covers 90% of their needs. 90% means 36 days out of the year I need to rent a vehicle which besides the hassle is very expensive (36 * $150/day = $5400) and goes on top of an already very expensive car.
Currently my car covers 99.8% of my requirements, Iâ(TM)ve had to rent 1 or 2 days per year for things my car canâ(TM)t do (haul something). Going on a driving trip for 18 hours, costs me 30 minutes spent in gas stations, even wi
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Itâ(TM)s like saying you buy a house but for a full month every year you have to stay in a hotel because the house doesnâ(TM)t fit your needs.
I do this a couple times a year because I can't bring my house with me when I go on these 200+mi trips.
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You don't understand, EVs have to satisfy _every_ conceivable use case in order to satisfy their critics. From their point of view, whatever range an EV does have will always be not enough. That trip that the couple takes for 200+ miles, even though it means 3+ hours of driving, there is absolutely no room for stopping to charge anywhere in that trip. It might be a pleasure trip to nowhere, but having to stop somewhere will ruin it! Ruined I say!
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It sounds like the building wasn't built to code at all. I'm not the electrician, that's my brother, but he likes to complain about stuff like this.
That said, it could be something as stupid as a corrective transformer not being configured properly to deliver the correct voltage and is instead set too low.
At least in our area EVs are being considered with requiring additional outlets in garages that can be adapted to them.
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https://www.smh.com.au/nationa... [smh.com.au] The company in this article has similar problems in other buildings as have many "developers".
https://www.theguardian.com/au... [theguardian.com]
the defects rates are actually much higher but many are covered by building ma
Built to code (Score:2)
Probably not actually to code, but with a bribe to the inspector, or knowing that the inspector is sloppy...
You see, there's a mandatory 15% "expansion" factor - IE if you calculate that you need 100 amps, for example, you actually need to go to a 125 or 150 amp panel. So that you aren't caught up by unexpected stuff like this, or the moment you discover the need for an additional circuit.
Note: I think it's 15%, not entirely sure.
Re:Charging infrastructure? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Um, relax. I am definitely not against EV, as a matter of fact, I really like them. It was a simple question, not an argument at all, unless you know the answer and you don't like it.
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It was a simple question, not an argument at all, unless you know the answer and you don't like it.
It was a "Tucker Carlson - just asking" (but really trying hard to imply the answer is something bad) submarine attack.
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Not at all.
I don't live in the USA, and I am not familiar with infrastructure there. I do know, however, it's a bloody large country, and I was wondering how does this work with the necessity of having charging stations throughout its territory.
Maybe you should ask yourself why did you interpret my question the way you did.
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California had supply-related rolling blackouts for one day in August 2020, the first since 2001 (which were related to Enron manipulating the market), avoided them in September of last year though it came close to ordering them, and 2021 seems to have been without them. There were other blackouts ordered by PG&E, but that has to do with their decades of underfunding maintenance on their distribution grid and shutting down high-voltage lines when high winds are expected, trying to avoid getting blamed f
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California had supply-related rolling blackouts for one day in August 2020, the first since 2001 (which were related to Enron manipulating the market), avoided them in September of last year though it came close to ordering them, and 2021 seems to have been without them. There were other blackouts ordered by PG&E, but that has to do with their decades of underfunding maintenance on their distribution grid and shutting down high-voltage lines when high winds are expected, trying to avoid getting blamed for even more deaths after their power lines sparked several major fires, including the Camp Fire that destroyed most of Concow and Paradise, taking at least 85 lives and causing $16 billion in damages. (Their gas infrastructure is no better, literally blowing up an entire neighborhood, killing eight and wounding 58 and destroying around three dozen houses.)
A side note: I find it quite funny how the leftists still salivate at the memory of Texas blackout, which was caused by a once-a-decade-type extreme weather event, meanwhile in their vaunted California being in blackout or just on the verge of it is "business as usual", and handwaved away. Yes, sure leftist way of doing things is sooo vastly superior.
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Foot note: Texas's problems are 100% the result of their utility industry, in collusion with the politicians, shunning the advice of scientists and refusing to winterize their infrastructure... up to and including blocking proposed legislation that would have required them to do so. It was well known that their gas supply infrastructure was vulnerable to cold weather but guarding against that would have cut into profits, you see...
Addendum: Literally all of California's woes can be traced directly to ENRON
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Addendum: Literally all of California's woes can be traced directly to ENRON - a Texas based company, if you can believe it
Of course I can believe that California morons can't even figure out electricity on their own, and have to beg Texas for help. Why wouldn't I?
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Yeah, you totally sound like an impartial and fair commentator.
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" leftists still salivate at the memory of Texas blackout, which was caused by a once-a-decade-type extreme weather event, meanwhile in their vaunted California being in blackout or just on the verge of it is "business as usual", and handwaved away"
That's your perception & it's wrong. Lots of "leftists" are very concerned & have been pushing the state gov't & utilities to upgrade.
However that doesn't mean it's all going to go smoothly. I've been told by many there that there's little to worry ab
Re:Charging infrastructure? (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe you should ask yourself why did you interpret my question the way you did.
Because the topic has been covered many times. Someone asking the obvious question "But whatabout this?" when it has been answered several times leads me to believe that they are sandbagging the conversation.
Apologies if this was not your intent.
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It was definitely not.
And while the topic was covered many times, it's a new, developing topic, and 6 months later it might present itself different than it did the last time.
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Well, since it's "US-based EV Battery Recycling Company", I was obviously asking about the US of A.
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As an example of this in a large City. Tesla in Portland, OR just recently opened a new charging station near the airport on the East side (10.1mi by road). From the downtown city center, which is on the West side, all chargers are about 9mi by direct flight, typically around 14mi by road. If I happen to be in the city center it is basically a 9mi radius of no Tesla Superchargers. There are a handful of other fast chargers.
In the last year on a route from Portland, OR to Salt Lake City, UT, there have been
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The availability of public EV chargers for non-Tesla vehicles is still pretty bleak. I don't see that changing in the near term.
Things are significantly better for Tesla owners.
https://www.tesla.com/en_eu/su... [tesla.com]
I mostly charge mine at home on a standard 240v/50A "electric dryer" outlet since it's quite a bit cheaper and more convenient to do so.
Best,
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That's interesting, thank you. Would a Tesla charger work for other EVs, for example for a higher price or something?
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That is something that is coming up, supposedly. Tesla can apparently get some more federal money if they open up their chargers to "all" EVs. They're allowed to charge for the privilege of charging at one of their stations, so all they really need is a billing system (which they already have for Tesla owners not lucky enough to have gotten in on the "Free charging for life" incentive), plus a "standard" plug. Teslas in the USA currently use a proprietary plug. Well, any company can use them for no lice
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That's actually nice of them. And helps everybody in the process.
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yes.
And we keep improving it, so as we need more... we have more! AMAZING! Technology! Building MORE of something!
What do you consider charging infrastructure? (Score:2)
Nearly every detached home (including mobile homes) for example can charge a BEV at a useful level since those have 240V single phase power in the US. Not every home or user requires a fast charger.
New cars are not bought by poor people so the early adopters will have money and their purchases will support public charger expansion. They will buy or refit their homes with chargers.
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I assume everyone who buys an EV would have enough brains to support home charging for them. But when you go on a trip, you need to be able to charge your car every now and then. Therefore, some infrastructure must be available throughout the country, e.g. at motels, hotels, gas stations, or dedicated areas.
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I have to point out that there's still a couple options other than charging your car:
1. Don't drive; fly or whatever.
2. Rent a car.
Though I do agree that it would be very handy to have more chargers out there, and in the USA, the dominant network is currently Tesla.
I think that it is actually a pretty hefty selling point for Teslas, actually. I mean, let's say that you're looking at a gasoline or diesel car. Tesla=gasoline, in this case. You do a survey and find that less than 10% of gas stations have
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I don't "expect" anything, it was a question. The only thing I was expecting were answers to it, that's all.
But it looks like I inadvertently pissed off some people, as they assumed it was a loaded question. It really wasn't.
Oh well.
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but is there a sufficiently large and widely available charging infrastructure?
There are well over fifty-million detached homes in the USA. That's where you start. 95% of my charging happens at home. I wake up each morning to a "full tank."
Understatement of the year ... (Score:5, Informative)
JB Straubel -- "who previously worked at Tesla" ... that might be understatement of the year.
JB Straubel was a co-founder of Tesla, employee #5 and the brainchild behind most of their battery systems and strategy.
So yeah, the guy might know a thing or two about batteries. Supply chains. Materials availability. And most of all, how to build a business around it.
Redwood Materials - IMO - is doing exactly what'll make EVs long-term sustainable.
These are the guys to watch.
What a disingenuous statement (Score:3, Interesting)
In fact, this year in America some electric cars could become "as cheap as or cheaper than cars with internal combustion engines," reports the New York Times
They already are as cheap or cheaper contingent upon what you're comparing them against, since cars with internal combustion engines range in price from the $15.3k Nissan Versa [marketwatch.com] to supercars which can set you back several million dollars.
specifically because of "increased competition, government incentives and falling prices for lithium and other battery materials."
Government incentives, AKA giving people who could otherwise afford a brand new car anyway, a tax break on a BEV. These subsidies just distort the market anyway. Notice how Chevy dropped their prices soon after the tax incentive ran out? It's all the proof you need that BEV subsidies are just a new shine on old fashioned crony capitalism.
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They already are as cheap or cheaper contingent upon what you're comparing them against
Not really. EVs have a price floor that prices them out of the bottom tier. The issue here is that you can only compare them against mid-class cars and that's the fundamental problem. If you're on a tight budget you almost certainly cannot right now afford an EV (which is a real shame given that livecycle costs for EVs are actually lower).
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These subsidies just distort the market anyway.
I agree. Let's remove the environmental subsidies for ICE cars. This means that ICE cars need to meter how much pollution they out and then you get the pay the amount of money needed to remove the pollution from the air.
Yeah, it might cost $5000/yr or more to drive an ICE car but at least the market wouldn't be distorted.
What percent is actually from recycled content? (Score:1)
from both new and recycled sources
If it's not at least 20 percent from the recycled side I would call BS marketing.
do all the EV's need the batteries replaced now? (Score:2)
do we have a million EV's on the road? I think there are 100-200 different battery designs that will make recycling difficult. Did you see where in Europe they want all the EV's to have hot swap batteries? That would be cool for the consumer and a home run for the thieves in the USA.
Re:do all the EV's need the batteries replaced now (Score:4, Informative)
> do we have a million EV's on the road?
There's over 2 million on the road in the US alone, so yes.
> I think there are 100-200 different battery designs that will make recycling difficult
Not really that many, but the only major difference is the outer casing for the most part; There's 2 major chemistries to deal with but depending on the process they might be recycled together. You need someone to dismantle the pack in any case, so the differences in physical construction are not a hurdle.
> Did you see where in Europe they want all the EV's to have hot swap batteries?
You're thinking China. There was also an Israeli company that pioneered the concept over a decade ago but they no longer exist (and you can probably guess why).
> a home run for the thieves in the USA
A typical EV battery is somewhat larger than a shipping pallet and weights north of 600 lbs. so I can't imagine anyone - or a group of people, really - going on a spree stealing them. Not quite the same as using a sawsall to cut a catalytic converter out of a car...
=Smidge=
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Don't forget that the EV could easily be programmed to "scream" if the battery is being removed without doing something inside the car with the key system, and most of them have cell connections these days.
So the cops could stroll up as they're dragging the pallet jack (like you said, 600+ pounds) down the road.
Re: do all the EV's need the batteries replaced no (Score:2)
If itâ(TM)s lucrative enough, people will steal it. Battery packs are about 25-50% the cost of an EV, if they can resell it for half the full cost (~$10k) on the black market, itâ(TM)s a great payday. Getting a pickup with a ramp and a hoist, you can easily pick up 3-5 per night.
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It makes more sense to steal the whole vehicle, roll it into a box truck with foil on the walls of the box (if it's not already full metal) and it's not contacting anybody. Then you can remove the battery at your leisure.
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You could do that ... except the vehicle telemetry (including precise location) is carried back to the server on a regular basis (eg: every few minutes) so if you steal it from somewhere at sometime the when and where have already left the vehicle before you even got it into the foil box.
It is true that you cannot make a car impossible to steal (without a trace) - especially in Johannesburg - but you can make it a lot harder to steal than the car it is parked next to - expecially if it has EV-levels of powe
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Sure, but we're talking about hot-swapping batteries. The batteries itself would be ripe for the picking in a dark, remote, unmanned battery changing station.
Solyndra said something similar (Score:2)
These kinds of statements are SOP for businesses looking for backers.
recycling as in sending it to some other country (Score:2)
for the lowest price possible and let that country deal with recycling the batteries in an environmentally safe way.
Damning with faint praise (Score:2)
"Redwood founder CEO JB Straubel, who previously worked at Tesla"....
Straubel was Tesla's true engineering genius.
Not only did he build - or convert an ICE to - an electric car by himself early on, he's the one who convinced Elon to pursue electric vehicles when Musk was then only narrowly focused on rockets.
And it was also his idea to use standard format laptop battery cells - the 18650 Li-ons - from which to assemble the automotive packs.