Electric Vehicles Could Match Gas-Powered Cars on Price This Year (seattletimes.com) 199
This year in America some electric cars could become "as cheap as or cheaper than cars with internal combustion engines," reports the New York Times, citing figures from the International Council on Clean Transportation, a research and advocacy group.
Prices are likely to continue trending lower as Tesla, General Motors, Ford Motor and their battery suppliers ramp up new factories, reaping the cost savings that come from mass production. New electric vehicles from companies like Volkswagen, Nissan and Hyundai will add to competitive pressure.... Falling prices for materials like lithium and cobalt have also helped. The price of lithium used in batteries has fallen 20% from its peak in November, though the metal still costs more than twice as much as it did at the end of 2021. Cobalt has fallen by more than half since May, in part because carmakers are selling some models that do not require it, reducing demand. New lithium mines are beginning to produce ore, which could keep a lid on prices...
As electric-vehicle sales soar — rising 66% in the United States last year to 810,000, according to Kelley Blue Book — automakers are getting better at making them.... Auto executives say that they are finding it is easier and cheaper to design and build new electric models than gasoline-powered ones. The battery cells made by Ultium, for example, are part of a collection of components that can be mixed and matched in many types of vehicles. Carmakers have long used the same platforms in multiple models, but the strategy works even better with electric vehicles because the cars have far fewer parts than internal combustion vehicles. The Ultium platform cuts the time needed to develop a new vehicle by almost two years, Dan Nicholson, vice president of electrification at GM, said at a Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago conference in January. As a result, GM will be able to introduce three Chevrolet electric vehicles this year: the Equinox, a Silverado pickup truck and a Blazer SUV. "That's how we get the economies of scale," Nicholson said.
The article cite's legislation passed last year subsidizing battery manufacturers, which "could cut the cost of making electric vehicles by as much as $9,000," as well as the legislation's tax credits for cars priced below $55,000.
But besides making it cheaper to purchase an electric car, "the car will need less maintenance," the article points out, "and the electricity to power it will cost less than the gasoline used by its combustion engine equivalent."
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader 140Mandak262Jamuna for sharing the article.
As electric-vehicle sales soar — rising 66% in the United States last year to 810,000, according to Kelley Blue Book — automakers are getting better at making them.... Auto executives say that they are finding it is easier and cheaper to design and build new electric models than gasoline-powered ones. The battery cells made by Ultium, for example, are part of a collection of components that can be mixed and matched in many types of vehicles. Carmakers have long used the same platforms in multiple models, but the strategy works even better with electric vehicles because the cars have far fewer parts than internal combustion vehicles. The Ultium platform cuts the time needed to develop a new vehicle by almost two years, Dan Nicholson, vice president of electrification at GM, said at a Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago conference in January. As a result, GM will be able to introduce three Chevrolet electric vehicles this year: the Equinox, a Silverado pickup truck and a Blazer SUV. "That's how we get the economies of scale," Nicholson said.
The article cite's legislation passed last year subsidizing battery manufacturers, which "could cut the cost of making electric vehicles by as much as $9,000," as well as the legislation's tax credits for cars priced below $55,000.
But besides making it cheaper to purchase an electric car, "the car will need less maintenance," the article points out, "and the electricity to power it will cost less than the gasoline used by its combustion engine equivalent."
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader 140Mandak262Jamuna for sharing the article.
More lithium enroute (Score:5, Informative)
India just found 6.9M tonnes of the stuff. I gather the lithium for one eV runs about 10kg. So, 100 of them to the tonne, that's almost 700M electric vehicles worth. They have 80M domestically right now, so even given growth (how much can there be, with their traffic?) they'll have a lot left over.
I was baffled by the "running out of lithium" argument last fall. Turns out to be slightly more common in the Earth's crust than lead, and lead-acid batteries need 11kg of lead. So, in resource consumption, an eV is an upgrade before you start saving on fuel.
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most of the lithium in the crust isn't a usable ore. then there are places like in Bolivia where the ore while having impressive number as reserve is spread out over hundreds of square miles in sparse amounts. Lithium shortage is still very real possiblity.
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The oceans contain 230 billion tonnes of lithium.
Extraction from seawater is not cost-effective, but extraction from desalination plant effluent, which doubles salt concentration, is cost-effective.
There is also plenty of lithium in saline lakes, such as the Dead Sea, the Great Salt Lake, and the Salton Sea.
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most of the lithium in the crust isn't a usable ore. then there are places like in Bolivia where the ore while having impressive number as reserve is spread out over hundreds of square miles in sparse amounts. Lithium shortage is still very real possiblity.
https://worldpopulationreview.... [worldpopul...review.com]
Anyhow, We are not remotely constrained to lithium, so if we somehow extract all possible lithium reserves - Sodium Ion batteries and their characteristics as not surprisingly virtually identical to lithium batteries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
A little less energy density, and surprisingly safer. We're not likely to run out of that any time soon.
Re: More lithium enroute (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: More lithium enroute (Score:2)
Re: More lithium enroute (Score:2)
I think the original Tesla Roadster tried to use the main battery for the accessories, but aside from that all EVs use a 12V battery (including other Tesla's).
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Well that's because using the big battery to power everything is really stupid. First, there's the safety aspect - high voltage running around the car adds a lot of insulation weight to the wiring. Second, powering low voltage devices from such a high voltage means you end up with needing a step down converter anyways.
The 12V battery is instead the "main" battery used in the car - if it goes fl
Re: More lithium enroute (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, Tesla at least has switched over to use a small lithium battery to run their low voltage systems. It’s been working very very well for them. Solved a myriad of issues.
That is awesome for 2030 (Score:2)
India just found 6.9M tonnes of the stuff.
That's great! BUT do you know how long it takes to get up a working mine?
Turns out it's 4-7years [linkedin.com]. Maybe on the shorter end if you are willing to cut corners and pollute a lot of native land around the mine.
The problem is the timeline for developing lithium resources (and other needed minerals, it's not just lithium) is really long and existing supplies tap out over time and are simply less productive every year... and there is global growing demand.
Re:If lithium is a metal... (Score:5, Informative)
...then how come every picture we see of it is white piles of powder?
That would be lithium carbonate.
Re:If lithium is a metal... (Score:5, Informative)
https://www.zmescience.com/sci... [zmescience.com]
But the soft, silver-white metal can’t be found in its elemental form, as it’s highly reactive. Instead, it’s present as a constituent of salts or other compounds. Most of the lithium available in the market can be found as lithium carbonate, a more stable compound that can then be transformed into other chemicals or salts.
Re: If lithium is a metal... (Score:2)
I see this as inevitable (Score:3)
At some point BEVs would have to catch up on price with ICEVs to compete. I just thought it would come from market forces and not government subsidies. The early adopters would be willing to pay extra to get in on the fashion of EV ownership. After that market is near saturation then the prices would have to come down to get the more practical buyer.
What I'm hearing with people I know are people seeking plug-in hybrids of some sort. Living in the US Midwest we can get some cold and snow. This means a lot of range in an EV can be lost in cabin heating and slipping and sliding on the road. Then comes the threats of power outages that can make getting a recharge a problem. On long trips there might not be an EV charger but there would be a filling station with some gasoline, diesel fuel, propane, or whatever gets your motor running.
One member of my family has a "light hybrid" Ford truck that runs electric only at low speeds, and then uses the electric motor to provide extra acceleration over what the ICE provides. I don't know if he plugs the truck in to charge with any regularity, it may not even be an option. Another family member has a different kind of "light hybrid" where the internal combustion engine has a gasoline tank that holds only two gallons of gas. It appears the thought it that if the battery runs low then the gasoline engine should get the car something like 50 miles more range. I'm thinking I'd want something in between. Something with enough EV in it to travel short commutes without need for the ICE, but when on a long trip the EV part lets the ICE take over for highway cruising.
With time I expect all cars and trucks to be "hybrid" or "electrified" to some level. The ICE as we know it will fade away. After that the price difference among the different models will fade as well because they will all be slight variations on the same theme. It will be a balance of ICE engine power and fuel tank vs. the electric motor and battery.
What's complicating this is all the complexities on government subsidies. Subsidies are not good for creating the best options. It clouds consumer choices and them being able to make informed and optimal decisions.
People want the government out of oil subsidies? I agree. Let's have the government out of all energy subsidies. Do that and we shall see how these measure up on costs.
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At some point BEVs would have to catch up on price with ICEVs to compete. I just thought it would come from market forces and not government subsidies.
Let me know when ICE vehicles lose the massive subsidies on both fossil fuel security and pollution related costs being written off.
Nope. Not even close. (Score:2)
First, the article includes a detail that (if you're looking for it) exposes part of the fallacy. Here it is:
"Increased competition, government incentives and falling prices for lithium and other battery materials are making electric vehicles noticeably more affordable." I boldfaced the detail that forms one part of the deception. The article is NOT talking about actual prices paid for the cars in question; it's talking about the sticker price the consumer pays directly, AFTER the government has already pa
typo (Score:2)
EV prices may match per rising gas vehicles prices (Score:2)
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Most of what you hear about is from Tesla. Things such as the steering wheel coming off [imgur.com] while driving seem to be the norm [thedrive.com] for them.
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The steering wheel coming off is clearly unacceptable. However, that occurred exactly twice: once in 2020 and the one you cited.
Auto expert Sandy Munro has said that while the early cars had build quality issues, recent cars are "second to none".
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/12/27/sandy-munro-how-tesla-gets-to-the-24000-car/ [cleantechnica.com]
If you think unacceptable incidents are "the norm for them" then please explain why the customer loyalty is so fanatical.
https://electrek.co/2023/02/02/tesla-highest-customer-retention [electrek.co]
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The burden of proof is on you to show that unacceptable actions are common and Tesla customers are just deluded.
The alternate explanation is that Tesla actually makes good products and actually earned the customer loyalty.
I'm a Tesla owner and I say the products are good. My Tesla is the best car I have ever owned.
Re:Reliability vs price (Score:5, Interesting)
> Given the poor reliability of almost all EV makers
The quality if EVs is about the same as any other car, or maybe slightly better. The fact is a problem with an EV is much more likely to make the news cycle, while a massive recall for any other vehicle will get little to no news coverage (except maybe business news if it's bad enough to hurt stock values)
Did you know Volvo is recalling ~27,000 2023 model year vehicles for faulty brake modules that might result in loss of ABS, stability and traction control? Or that a few months ago Subaru recalled over 270.000 vehicles for faulty electrical wiring that could result in a fire? Or that Chrysler recalled over a million pickup trucks because the tailgate can just fall open at any time and dump whatever you might have in the bed all over the highway?
Bet ya didn't! Sure sure as shit if Tesla recalls a few hundred for a wonky headlight or something it'll be viral for weeks.
Automobiles are very complicated things. If you applied that same standards of quality across all vehicles, you'd walk.
=Smidge=
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I wouldn't be surprised if all those recalls you mentioned were due to electrical issues. All that does it reinforce the idea that adding more electronics to ANY car increases problems.
I, for one, don't expect electric cars to be any more reliable, but perhaps the last gasp of ICE vehicles will continue to get worse before they die out.
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Yes, a Tesla has more computing power than most ICE cars but that is for features not found in most ICE cars, such as FSD.
I have owned and operated cars for 45 years and if I was list all of the tings that failed in them most don't exist in BEVs. The last ICE ca
Re:Reliability vs price (Score:5, Informative)
> Please cite your sources that show your statement that "The quality if EVs is about the same as any other car, or maybe slightly better."
My source is this article from this pro-tesla news source Teslarati: https://www.teslarati.com/tesl... [teslarati.com]
"It isn't all bad news for Tesla; its score matches the average for domestic automakers, the company was able to improve its ranking by four places compared to last year, and none of its vehicles made it to the list of 10 least reliable vehicles in America."
Did you even read the article before linking it?
It's also worth noting Consumer Report's methodology; They survey people and ask their experiences, rather than hard data which admittedly would be hard to get. There is almost certainly a sampling bias here, as people will be more likely to report even minor problems with something new than similar problems with something familiar.
=Smidge=
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please cite your sources that show your statement that "The quality if EVs is about the same as any other car, or maybe slightly better."
If only there was a simple way to find out the, "10 least reliable vehicles in America", or something like that.
Or maybe even the "10 most reliable vehicles in America"
Re:Who cares (Score:5, Insightful)
...and spend half of my life charging?
You know, you can do something else while charging. Like, charge it overnight.
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Most people don't need to drive 700 miles at a go.
Agreed.
For that matter, most people don't have bladders that last the 11 or 12 hours it takes to drive 700 miles.
Agreed in a world where people can't stop along the way -- rest stop, gas station, restaurant, etc... -- to pee.
[ You know you can do that, right? You don't *have* to drive straight-thru -- to anywhere -- w/o any breaks. :-) ]
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Most homes don't have chargers here
Google "on street chargers" to see the solution that already exists.
Re:Who cares (Score:4, Insightful)
Not in the UK, you can't. Most homes don't have chargers here and never will because of prevalent terraced housing with no driveway.
Sounds like a you problem.
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The UK is an example of why some government assistance is needed to help people charge at home. If people can't charge at home it will cost them more to use public chargers.
A lot of housing in the UK doesn't have a driveway to park on. The only parking is either on the street, which is basically a free-for-all, or they might have an allocated space some distance from their dwelling. That means that whoever owns the land between their house and where they park their car, usually the local government or incre
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Not in the UK, you can't. Most homes don't have chargers here and never will because of prevalent terraced housing with no driveway.
Don't they have windows?
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Cue, not queue.
Re:Who cares (Score:5, Insightful)
That third of your life is spent asleep while your car charges. Essentially you're eliminating the time you waste going to petrol stations and start each day with a full tank of "gas" which costs you a fraction of the fossil fuel equivalent.
Comparing a 2nd hand car price to a new car price is your own issue you'll need to come to terms with.
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That third of your life is spent asleep while your car charges. Essentially you're eliminating the time you waste going to petrol stations and start each day with a full tank of "gas" which costs you a fraction of the fossil fuel equivalent. Comparing a 2nd hand car price to a new car price is your own issue you'll need to come to terms with.
Exactly this. The whole paradigm for EV's is different. It is a top off often, while petrofueld vehicles tend to go to maybe a quarter tank, then refill. Or my SO claims I like to run on vapors before refueling. In town, your near full all the time.
If a person is traveling there are increasing numbers of hotels that have charging points. https://www.plugshare.com/map/... [plugshare.com] It will soon be a big plus. Plug it in, go sleepy bye, get up, enjoy breccy, and there ya go.
Now, for those who do a lot of - hop i
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Perhaps you should read up about On-Street Residential chargepoints.
Start with this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/... [www.gov.uk]
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Like I said to the other comment, this won't work in the UK where we have prevalent terraced houses with no driveways, where people will never have at-home chargers.
And like I said in the other comment - that's a you problem. If your zoning messed up, and you will never be able to ever have an EV - well, sorry. Your situation does not dictate wht the rest of the world is allowed to do.
Re: Who cares (Score:2)
I wouldn't call allowing medium density housing a zoning problem.
Especially if there's some mixed use allowed. It can actually dramatically reduce the amount of driving needed and it doesn't force space to be taken up for driveways/garages that may not be wanted.
What is needed is street side charging, not mandatory parking minimums.
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I wouldn't call allowing medium density housing a zoning problem
The post you replied to didn't mention medium density housing. It was a direct reply to a preceding post that claimed:
where people will never have at-home chargers.
Now, if "medium density housing" zoning is interpreted by the zoning authority as precisely synonymous with "people will never have at-home chargers" then I would call it a zoning problem. But if the zoning authority doesn't have their heads up their asses then those two statements don't have to be synonymous.
If your local zoning authority has their heads up their asses then that IS a zoning
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Like I said to the other comment, this won't work in the UK where we have prevalent terraced houses with no driveways, where people will never have at-home chargers.
1) Do those people drive their cars 24 hours a day or do they park them somewhere at night?
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No..they do park them overnight.
However, many if not most people do NOT have access to private, off street parking where they can set up and use a charger.
Think large apartment complexes for one example.
Aside from that, lots of cities, especially older ones, that may have private homes, but no off street parking, so, it's a crapshoot where you park on your street on any given evening.
Re:Who cares (Score:5, Informative)
Since you mention GBP, the longest distance in the UK is Land's End to John O'Groats - 603 miles. So what the hell does it matter if a car does 700 miles? Do you think there is ANYBODY who even drives that distance in a single sitting let alone frequently? What even is this car you talk about since most ICE vehicles I've ever owned might do 350-450 miles typically.
And besides that, some people might have jobs and need to drive hundreds of miles a day. But I bet most vehicles do about 20-30 miles a day - school runs, shopping, work. So framing everything in terms of absolute range makes no sense - someone needs to charge their car once a week which is no big deal. Even if someone does need to complete a long journey, chances are they need food, the toilet etc. so providing there is a charging infrastructure with fast chargers along the route then what does that matter either?
As for vehicle costs, EVs are expensive but the price is dropping with economies of scale. You can buy a decent EV for less than £30,000, not £50,000. I imagine as combustion vehicles phase out that the price will drop further. And that includes to the second hand market too. It doesn't mean everyone could avail of an EV right now but the reality is they are here to stay like it or not and within 10 years no ICE cars are going to be for sale.
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For reference, with no stops and no refuelling, Land's End to John O'Groats takes 15 hours. Theoretically possible for an individual or pair of individuals to do in one go, but very unpleasant. Illegal for commercial drivers to do without adequate rest breaks.
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Since you mention GBP, the longest distance in the UK is Land's End to John O'Groats - 603 miles.
What if I want to come back again?
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You have a 700 mile EV, odds are you will make it to your daily destination. Also consider that many people have bike racks, or other drag inducing objects like luggage carriers, on their vehicles. Alternatively, people could be towing trailers, small or large.
This will begin to level out as EV's become more common and people don't really have range issues. On top of that as battery charging improves, and
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I think it's a given that EVs don't cover every potential use case but they already cover the typical use cases and as they become more popular and more models appear they fill the niches left by ICEs going away.
I think when you look at a country like Norway where electric cars account for > 80% of new sales (and ICE models won't be sold at all after 2025), you can see that it's not the big deal people make out. It requires building infrastructure to support EVs, but the transition is relatively painless
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So there's a stop in the middle of the 500 miles. Does that stop have a fast charger yet?
Re:Who cares (Score:5, Informative)
If Plugshare is anything close to accurate, there is a DC-Fast charging station no farther than about 50 miles from any point in the British isles. Excluding Tesla superchargers.
=Smidge=
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The UK has lots of coverage, way more than where I live in Ireland. I can't find the regulations but I know the UK's intent is broadly similar to EU regs that you should be able to just roll up, plug in and pay and not be discriminated against for the make of your vehicle or manner of payment.
This will be welcome news to EV owners because the situation over the last few years is a mess. I remember watching an episode of Fully Charged and Robert Llewellyn opened his wallet and had something like 15 cards jus
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You can't get anywhere near even 500 with most EVs and 500 miles is 250 miles two-way. With my heating, radio on, 4 people on board, at motorway speeds.
Okay - you've been whining about EV's and how they are simply impossible - What is your solution - What do you want to do with EV's since it is proven impossible to deploy in GB, and that they clap out almost immediately - If they don't suit you - don't buy one. It's not like there are not a lo0t of other alternatives. Get gas or diesel, and rejoice in your superiority or whatever is tweaking your nads.
But your incessant whinging just tells us you don't want them to exist. Sorry about that, I guess thei
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Re:Who cares (Score:5, Interesting)
You can't get anywhere near even 500 with most EVs and 500 miles is 250 miles two-way
Mine gets 400 miles. Is that "close"? And it charges at over 1000 miles per hour, so a 10-minute stop to pee and stretch your legs at the turnaround point will get you all the way back home.
With my heating, radio on, 4 people on board, at motorway speeds.
Yep, and all of those. And the electricity to do it will cost maybe half of what you'd spend on gasoline for the same trip.
I've driven my EV on really long trips... in a country where really long trips are actually possible. Thousands of miles, not mere hundreds. It works just fine.
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You can't get anywhere near even 500 with most EVs and 500 miles is 250 miles two-way
Mine gets 400 miles. Is that "close"? And it charges at over 1000 miles per hour, so a 10-minute stop to pee and stretch your legs at the turnaround point will get you all the way back home.
Damn those pesky facts!
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Any vehicle can be consider unsuitable for particular role if you pick the wrong one. BTW my Tesla would be far better suited for the very specific condition you detail than my Suzuki.
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And nor do most people need to go 500 miles either. They want to drive to Tesco, or pick up their kids from school or drive to work. These are not tasks that require [EnormousArbitraryRange] where [EnormousArbitraryRange] is some goal post shifted outside the norm for electric vehicles. For most people and their daily routine they can probably go a week or several weeks between charges in an EV. They don't have to drive to a garage either to fill up, just plug the car in at home every now and then.
But let's
Re:Who cares (Score:5, Insightful)
Currently a 2 000 GBP car can take me 700 miles. Why would I pay 50 000 GBP to get a third of that
Your numbers are wrong and your comparison is flawed. It is meaningless to compare an old (shitty) ICE 2000 GBP and a mid-range EV (50 000 GBP is not entry level).
1) If we talk new cars, then you have to use the price of the least expensive (mainstream) ICE cars like: Dacia Sandero 12 995 GPB or Fiat Panda 14 725 GBP.
2) If you talk used cars, you can find an old Renault ZOE (EV) for 7 299 GBP from the official Renault UK website, 5 990 EUR elsewhere (I only looked for 30 seconds).
3) Anyway what matters is the price difference between equivalent models. For example Peugeot 208 (Petrol) 20 340 GBP vs Peugeot e-208 (Electric) 31 345 GBP. A Renault ZOE (EV) costs 29 995 GBP new while a Clio (ICE) 18 995 GBP.
What TFS claims is that in few years, the price difference between equivalent models, currently about 11 000 GBP, will vanish.
You are totally right that the range is not the same. But cars that cost 2000 GBP that are old, noisy, worn off, failure prone, are not to be trusted for long distances, and therefore have a lower effective range.
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Why switch from a 2,000 GBP car that can take you 700 miles, when a 50,000 GBP EV does half of that (not 1/3)? Other people have done the driver range vs car range common, so how about a free car? What I spent on my daily commute in petrol in that old inefficient car is paying both for the electricity (cheap night rate) to charge the EV and for the loan for the new car itself. If I'd got solar on my roof and a battery, I'd be making money from the switch.
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I'd say a 50k EV is high end, not mid range. Mid range is around the 30k mark. The affordable end is around 20k.
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Seems like something the free market could decide? Oh wait they have and they like electric cars.
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To be practical for my purposes, it needs a 850 mile range, and a charger overnight anywhere I might stop, or, 450 mile range with a 5-10 minute charge where ever I might stop. Both are at ~75-80 mph over western Interstates. This with 3 very large boxes and supplies for 3 people for a week. It can't be done remotely, it requires my physical presence
Say you can maintain the speed limit almost all the way - 850/75. That is a good 11 hours at least...assuming no roadwork/accidents/other delays. Are you saying you do that with at most one break? And you do this regularly? You must have a bladder of steel...
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Looks like this is a fast charger availability concern.
That is only a short-term problem. EVs are 10% of sales but 1% of cars on the road.
When 20% of cars on the road are EVs, superchargers will be far more common. The supply will rise to meet the demand.
Disclaimer: I have an EV, and "range" is a total non-issue for me.
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It's about 11-13 hours/day total depending on the individual legs of the trip. Last weekend, 832 miles on way on Friday, 12:45, 832 back, ~11:45 due to traffic variation in LA and environs. Two stops each way this time due to where the fuel windows fell, I have done it in one stop if I don't get held up in LA too much.
The longest individual leg I do is about 475 miles, that is about the limit, dependent on the terrain, the range on a tank of gas can be anywhere from maybe 395 to 481 be
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It's about 11-13 hours/day total depending on the individual legs of the trip.
Ok.
I will stop as often as necessary.
So, no problem then. You'll soon be able to charge cars wherever there's a diner.
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To be practical for my purposes, it needs a 850 mile range, and a charger overnight anywhere I might stop, or, 450 mile range with a 5-10 minute charge where ever I might stop.
Are you really going to go on the internet and tell everybody those stops can't be 25 minutes instead of 10? Sit and have a coffee and donut.
Because to most people that just sounds like whining and inventing excuses.
Re:Who cares (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as you are thinking how many people can't use my product? you wont make anything. There are people who ask how many people can use my product? There enough people who buy EV, they will sell to them.
Re:Who cares (Score:5, Insightful)
Who cares? I don't give an rat's ass what you drive and what would make you buy EV
As long as you are thinking how many people can't use my product? you wont make anything. There are people who ask how many people can use my product? There enough people who buy EV, they will sell to them.
Exactly this! I need a trail rated 4WD vehicle, and I prefer something on the smaller side. So I drive a go-cart Jeep Renegade. My wife prefers something bigger, and more luxurious, so she drives a Cherokee. I'd never take hers where I go, and she finds the Renegade a bit too go-kart'ish.
There's a whole spectrum of vehicles out there from massive tractors to SUV's to 4WD big and small, to tiny little things like smartcars and Fiats.
The people who seem to be whining avour EV's not fitting their use patterns is weird. Mainly because we seldom see people complaining about the existence of other vehicles that don't fit their use pattern.
Even weirder is a people playing the victim card, like they are forced at gunpoint to buy an EV. It isn't like there are a lot more non-EV alternatives, but their feelings get hurt easily by anyone who impugns whatever it is that makes buying a non-EV so important to them.
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To be practical for my purposes, it needs a 850 mile range, and a charger overnight anywhere I might stop, or, 450 mile range with a 5-10 minute charge where ever I might stop. Both are at ~75-80 mph over western Interstates. This with 3 very large boxes and supplies for 3 people for a week. It can't be done remotely, it requires my physical presence.
We are nowhere near either.
Full stop! Until we get EV's that conforms to what you demand - we must not produce them.
Queue up all the sputtering about not needing to do it, or other side issues. I do not appreciate being either coerced or "socially engineered" into buying this half-baked crap, I actually need/want do do this trip, I don't care if other people don't want or need that, I do. I have a perfectly satisfactory solution now, I don't want or need anything else.
Oh no! A victim - so many are these days. Hey homie - you buy the biggest longest range vehicle that exists, and if that's what makes you happy - I am happy for you. I would suggest a diesel - you can roll coal at those fucking libtards who are victimizing you.
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Apparently, some people can't stand to hear that there are some percentage of use cases for which EVs aren't a great fit, so mod you as troll? How very authoritarian of them.
Some use case not being a good fit doesn't mean that EVs aren't a better fit for MOST cases. Just not ALL cases. I mean, my next car is going to be an EV because I literally never travel more than a couple hundred miles. Most of the time, it's less than a few miles a day, traveling around in urban or suburban environment. But my br
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I wish i was that simple. The problem is that soon the choice will be taken away from me and I'll be forced to drive a car which does not in any way meet my needs. All thanks to "oh my god, all-in on EVs" rich fan boys living in California, who travel a few miles to work tops, who don't know what the working class needs and who convinced the world that EVs work for everyone.
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lol
the average American drives 30 to 40 miles a day. Even the lowest range current Tesla is going to get you 270 miles. The lower F-150 gets 230
Even if you drive 5 times more per day than the average American, you'll be fine.
Even the vast majority of Americans towing things are also fine
Currently road trips are more annoying, but 99% of the time, it is easier to use a BEV.
Sure, some small amount of people need to tow lead blocks up mountains at 80 mph every day, and that is going to be a hard requirement to
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> The problem is that soon...
Not sure if that word means what you think it means.
The California ban on new ICEVs doesn't kick in for another 12 years. It does not prevent you from driving a gasoline car you already own and you will still be able to buy used vehicles.
So much pearl clutching...
=Smidge=
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Apartments, remember when high speed Internet came out but you couldn't have it in most apartments? Is that still a problem? No, because you can't rent out an apartment without high speed Internet any more. Same thing will happen with charging. Street side charging is neither difficult nor expensive and is an extra income stream for car park owners. Not being able to charge at an apartment is a transien
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Wow, where do you live where all apartments, especially older buildings...magically started having high speed internet?
Trust me, not every one has it.
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Was that ever really a thing? I mean, when I lived in an apartment I didn't have any trouble getting ISDN installed, and that was when 128k ISDN was high speed.
But yeah, apartments that have parking without EVSEs are going to be rare in 20 years.
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On the other hand if Tesla doesn't do something they'll be out of business very soon.
Good God Almighty do you guys never get tired of posting this vein of never ending fact-less drivel?
www.fark.com/politics
Oh. I see. My bad carry on.
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On the other hand if Tesla doesn't do something they'll be out of business very soon.
It could happen. Just as soon as one of these other companies figures out how to not have the marketing team and dealerships take an enormous cut of their profits, they'll be able to compete with Telsa.
Now, if only someone were actually trying that.
Tesla can't really compete (Score:2)
Tesla lost money on their cars until very recently. And today they're making money because the pandemic caused a huge shortage of cars and let them
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Oh please, you've been predicting the death of Tesla and anything Elon Musk touched for years at this point, and Tesla is stronger than ever.
On the other hand if Tesla doesn't do something they'll be out of business very soon.
No, they don't. If you want an EV, and want to have a chance of taking anywhere away from your garage, you want a Tesla. No other car company comes even close to matching Tesla, not in features, not in number of cars sold, and most importantly, not in places to charge.
Every other car company is still several years away from even hoping to match Tesla is EV production,
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Every other car company is still several years away from even hoping to match Tesla is EV production, and none of them have a charging network.
This isn't really true any more, not in the US at least. It was just 2-3 years ago, but the Charge America and Electrify America networks have really expanded, to the point that you can get just about anywhere you want on them. Tesla is still ahead but they are today where Tesla was 2-3 years ago.
I own a Tesla and love the Supercharger network (I even lucked out when I bought my car and managed to get free lifetime Supercharging, so I pay nothing for "fuel" on long trips, which is awesome), but I recently
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In Europe the Tesla charging network isn't the biggest or most convenient in many cases. Some of the manufacturers own one of the biggest ones, Ionity. Their chargers are faster than Tesla ones too - 350kW, supporting 800V charging.
The first networks here were built by Nissan and Renault in partnership with energy companies, but that was a long time ago now.
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Except the Tesla network actually works. I have friends that have EV's, and complain about electrify america charging stations - out of order, or slow charging only when they claimed fast charge. Even some of the comparisons that have been done in magazines (Gas vs tesla vs electrify america road trip test to see how long each takes) ran into these problems with the Electrify America chargers. They still have quite a while to go to catch up to Tesla's charging network.
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The big mistake people like rsilvergun make in predicting the pending death of Tesla is failing to understand that market place can support a range of choices. The success of other companies does not mean the failure of others. Most car companies fail from their own bad choices. It gets far more interesting when loo
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As for the Charging network, these are luxury autos. People just buy a second car (usually an Acura or Lexus) for the longer trips.
I greatly prefer my EV for longer trips, especially 1000+ miles.
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Even without the credits, Tesla still makes the largest profit margin per vehicle of mass market cars
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> We're a long ways off from a car priced like a Honda fit or even a Hyundai Elantra.
Chevy Bolt is just $5k more than a base model Elantra, so with federal incentives it's actually cheaper. In fact with the federal incentives it's on par with the Honda Fit. If your state has its own incentives, it'll be a few grand cheaper.
=Smidge=
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Except for that little pesky problem that the incentive comes in the form of a tax credit.
A very easy way to deal with this is to lease. Then the lessor gets the tax credit, and they just apply it up front to reduce the amount that has to be financed.
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They started with _This is an electric car. It does not go fast. It does not go far, ha! haaa!! haaaaa!!!_ as recently as 2018. I think this is called denial stage.
Then FUD, and angry posts all over social media and shorted the company stock, smeared anyone supporting EV. You remember in slashdot there was this idiot with binary number handle who was pissed off by Tesla. This was the anger stage
Then some strange ideas like, "I need 1000 mile in a single charge" "G
Re: This is only on the higher end (Score:2)
I feel like with their recent price cuts they're pretty compelling at price point.
A model Y vs a similar Ioniq 5 for example.
They did have to drop price, and they are facing competition, but they seem to be rising to the occasion.
I was pretty certain I was going to get an ioniq 5 for my next car if the RWD limited ever became available, but the model Y price drop has me reconsidering.
I think the model Y has a larger rear with the seats down for camping in too.
Not really price cuts (Score:2)
They dropped the price because they needed to to qualify for one of the government tax rebates. When you're talking on luxury car though those tax rebates are really just money in Tesla's pocket at this point. The fact that Tesla can price the cars up as high as they can shows that the rebates aren't really needed anymore. But they'll stick around a while longer.
It's frustrating because they're having the exa
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They raised the price by 15K and then cut it by 5. I wouldn't exactly call that a price cut.
Didn't they raise the Model Y prices again once the credits kicked in, as it magically qualified as an SUV.
Speaking of which, having the higher threshold for SUVs is another horrible policy that's just going to continue encouraging massive 3-ton EV trucks and SUVs like the Hummer or Escalade that are actually worse than a small ICE car.
Re:Anything "could" happen. (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey Grandpa, Millennials have college aged children now.
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I "could" wake up tomorrow with Jada Fire. Trump "could" actually tell a truth. A Millennial "could" decide to actually get a job.
"Could" doesn't interest me. Let me know when something does happen.
Better check out Sodium ion battery technology. Thing we're going to run out of sodium? A bit less energy density - and safer to boot.
Is your narrative that we will always find more petrochemicals? We "could" I suppose.