Michael Abrash Joins Oculus, Calls Facebook 'Final Piece of the Puzzle' 232
trawg writes: "Programming legend Michael Abrash has announced that he has joined the Oculus team to work on the Rift VR headset as Chief Scientist, and will be once again working with John Carmack to bring VR to life. His post covers a lot of ground, including the history of his quest for VR, and ends with his explanation of why he thinks the Facebook acquisition is ultimately a good thing — they have the engineering, resources and long-term commitment 'to solve the hard problems of VR.'"
Abrash has long maintained a blog about VR tech — it's worth reading if the subject matter interests you.
Facebook is written in php (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Facebook is written in php (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think he's going to be dicking around in their web site code. It could be written in Brainfuck for all he cares. What matters is they have MONEY which he can use to fund efforts at using better technology to write it. Somewhere, somebody has some social site written in the cleanest, most beautiful, maintainable, optimized code that ever existed but... they don't have MONEY. Such is the way of the world. Keeping up with the Kardashians (which is all FaceBook really is) rakes it in. By comparison, things of quality might make *some* MONEY but not enough to fund blue sky projects like VR. At least he's not building rockets for the nazis. Things are much better these days for technical people who need a sugar daddy.
Re:Facebook is written in php (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, FB has a lot of technological excellence... it isn't seen:
1: They have done more for biometric security and automated facial recognition than virtually any other company out there.
2: They have a very well made system for hunting down people who are actual people versus dummy/sock puppet accounts that get squashed.
3: They are excellent at geolocation.
4: They created the "commodity hardware, have the backend application do all the redundancy" where the fault tolerance is in the top of the stack, as opposed to the hardware like the IBM mainframes. This allows for the absolute cheapest machines possible, and if they die, things continue on. Even entire data centers can drop off the face of the earth.
5: They have the best behavioral reporting and profiling tech out there. Want to check if people 18-25 are interested in your new widget? Easily done by a FB trial balloon.
6: FB advertising is one of the few channels that work. People turn off their TV, but the FB ads will still come to them no matter what. I've used it to propagate info for a non-profit gathering... and attendance doubled.
7: FB is one of the few enterprises that can actually get btrfs from an early beta state to a finished product that can handle production data. Without Facebook, btrfs would probably spend another five years being semi-ignored.
8: FB is one of the few Internet based companies, who, a year after IPO, has stock prices higher than they were when hitting the market and still solid.
9: FB has very tight security. You never see a note about Facebook being hacked, and in security, no news is good news.
10: FB is platform agnostic.
So, even though people bag FB, it is one of the smartest-run businesses on the face of the planet.
Re:Facebook is written in php (Score:5, Funny)
Please ignore those facts and take your seat on the Facebook Hate Train.
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All Aboard!
Wait, didn't we fight against these dumb fucks in WWII?
1: They had done more for biometric recognition and genealogical research and helped individually identify virtually entire races of people.
2: They had a very well made system for hunting down people who are actual people versus dummy/sock puppet newsletters that get squashed.
3: They were excellent at geolocation.
4: They created the "normalization of production, just ignore its backend application of redundancy and stagnation." where the fault intolerance is in the top of the stack, and blame flows downhill until a few heads roll, just programmers of IBM mainframes. This cost-shifting allows for the absolute cheapest workers possible, and if they die, things continue on. Even entire races can drop off the face of the earth!
5: They had the best behavioral reporting and profiling tech out there. Want to check if people 18-25 are opposed to your new propaganda? Easily done by a trial balloon and witch hunt.
6: They had one of the few propaganda channels that worked too well. People threw away their fliers, but the hateful FUD messages will still come to them no matter what. They used it to propagate info for gathering youths... and attendance soared.
7: They were one of the few enterprises that had a chance of getting filing systems from an early beta to a finished distributed product that can handle distributed datasets. Without their on demand "Papers Please" model, BTRFS's record keeping journal might never have been invented.
8: They were one of the few types of governments, who, years after being defeated, were still operational and not criticized by their citizens openly.
9: They had very tight security. They never let their citizens see a note about them being hacked, and in security, no news is good news.
10: Their economic and religious model is platform agnostic.
So, even though people bag Nazis and the Stasi, they are some of the most efficient oppressive forces on the face of the planet.
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1: They have done more for biometric security and automated facial recognition than virtually any other company out there.
Yes, but by massively invading the privacy of people who genererally thought they were just sending messages to their friends instead of participating in this research. (sure the ToS and disclaimers were in place, and while they covered their legal asses, their ethics leave everything to be desired.)
2: They have a very well made system for hunting down people who are actual people versu
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Like pretty much any website. Ever
If only that were true, I can only conclude that you must be new here.
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If only that were true, I can only conclude that you must be new here.
Your right of course that a shit ton of websites have been single platform / single browser over the years. But by and large the majority of the web has been cross-platform, and the situation today is better than its ever been.
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and the situation today is better than its ever been.
The veracity of this claim is inversely proportional to the veracity of your previous claim.
Try having a self-consistent view of reality for a change.
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"The veracity of this claim is inversely proportional to the veracity of your previous claim."
And?
"Try having a self-consistent view of reality for a change."
You corrected me. Its absurd to then systematically take the evolution of a set of beleifs and then triumphantly claim someone is internally inconsistent after convincing them to change their mind by contrasting the claim they started with to the one they ended with.
My view of reality is entirely consistent. Its just not the same view of reality I had
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If only that were true, I can only conclude that you must be new here.
Your right of course that a shit ton of websites have been single platform / single browser over the years. But by and large the majority of the web has been cross-platform, and the situation today is better than its ever been.
I think the web has been a great leveler platform wise and the situation has improved enormously, but I think the majority being cross-platform is relatively recent. Between 2002 and 2008 or so IE had a stranglehold and there are TONS of IE specific applications out there.
Right now with XP support disappearing the companies that invested heavily in Microsofts platform specific technologies, that Microsoft have now basically abandoned themselves. These companies are now scrambling to either migrate off XP an
Re:Facebook is written in php (Score:4, Insightful)
And one more thing. The basic functions of the site wouldn't be hard to create and run for a 100 people. But do that for a million and things get different. Do it for 1.2 billion and things get fucking weird. They MUST have some serious shit going on to operate at that scale. Yeah, they've got tons of market analysts and designer-types, but somewhere they've got some Ph.D. computer science guys that are making the core of the thing run, inventing technology that doesn't exist anywhere else because this kind of scale just isn't normally done.
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1. Since when are biometric security and facial recognition capabilities that help the current problems society is facing? If anything, they make things worse.
2. Again, another technology that is NOT helping the surveillance problem.. It's making it worse.
3. Ditto.
4. Interesting, but this has been done before.
5. More surveillance and advertising.. I guess this is good if you're a government agent or an advertiser, but it's not good for anyone else.
6. Ditto
7. Maybe. I'd trade btrfs for more privacy on the
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And yet, my chinchilla still has an account. Which has never (age adjusted into human years) lied about its chinchilla-ness. Mighty fine police work there, Zuck!
4: They created the "commodity hardware, have the backend application do all the redundancy" where the fault tolerance is in the top of the stack
Yeah, Google wants a word with you...
5: They have the best
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Jee, how much is FB paying you per hour to post this crap. What, they didn't have any spare /. accounts kicking around so they had to post anon?
Are you one of the same shills that is astroturfing on reddit?
http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/21d2bi/proof_with_absolute_evidence_that_facebook_shills/ [reddit.com]
http://www.infowars.com/facebook-accused-of-astroturfing-reddit-to-silence-criticism/ [infowars.com]
Facebook is essentiall
Re: Facebook is written in php (Score:2)
I don't believe that you can make an honest assessment because you believe every single statement from Facebook to be a bold faced lie.
Do you really believe the only way Facebook can make money from this is to turn it into a Facebook device?
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9: FB has very tight security. You never see a note about Facebook being hacked, and in security, no news is good news.
You don't really pay attention to security do you? Here's a fun video for you. [youtube.com]
Re: Facebook is written in php (Score:2)
What users should Facebook listen to for new features? Majority rules? Who defines the majority? People birching about change always seem more prevalent than those who just roll with it.
Also, the only damage I can see Facebook potentially doing is locking the software distribution channel for the Oculus into an Apple app-store like model. If this thing caught on, there'd be a Facebook app, social apps, ad-supported apps, in-app purchases, etc. regardless. I don't know exactly how those would fit into this V
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I would just put all of that on the list of things that help the oppressive surveillance police state. If it was pure capitalism, facebook would not be legally protected from attacks by those who despise it. Oppressive corporates need strong centralized government in order to corner the market.
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No. You think that Facebook crushed MySpace and Friendster without any sort of technological or software competence? Hundreds of millions of people opened accounts there for absolutely no reason?
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Facebook FIXED PHP! (Score:2)
Facebook is written in php...Keep that in mind. Facebook is not a company of technological excellence
If you look below the annoying surface of the Facebook page, you'll find a very different story. Facebook actually HAS been a company of technical excellence.
On PHP in particular, most technical people look down on PHP... but instead of doing that, Facebook figured out how to fix some of what was broken [techrepublic.com] about PHP so they could still use the good aspects of it.
That's not a company that does not have some tec
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I'm a C/C++/VB.NET/PHP programmer and I can safely say that a good programmer can be a good programmer in PHP, it just takes more effort from the programmer to be discplined about good programming practices. And I totally agree that disrepecting a company or individual for the language their product is developed in is ill informed and shows a lack of experience and understanding of the person forming that opinion.
One of the biggest flaws in PHP is being totally typeless and undeclared - which is a flaw t
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C++ doesn't have any garbage collection. There is an offshoot of C++ used by MS that has managed-code features, but that's not standard C++ (and they're probably not bothering with it much these days in their push to C#).
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to be honest, C++ (not Java) is impressive for not having garbage that needs picking up, so no... he probably doesn't know it :-)
But then, he does Java, so I imagine he knows exactly what garbage is.
Now that the puzzle is complete... (Score:5, Insightful)
You can finally see the picture. It's a giant middle finger. Flipping you off. Forever.
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Back away from it a little more [allpostersimages.com].
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Original ideas can't end in the word "forever" Thanks Orwell.
Irrelevent (Score:2)
You can have all the engineering genius in the world, but when you have famous programmers abandoning the platform because of it's association with Facebook [notch.net], what's the point?
If a tree falls in a forest with nobody to hear it...
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And yes, I can't spell irrelevant. That isn't relevent to my point!
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That's irrelephant! [bing.com]
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I agree and disagree - we should get VR moving, but there are other projects to put resources into that won't have Facebook's history of dumping on their partners.
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Except when there's no evidence of this.
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Though it's plain you didn't read the blog post he wrote (he actually states specifically that VR is ideal for social, he just doesn't trust Facebook to push the platform for games development given their history of arbitrarily changing the playing field), I was using Notch as an example. Try having a browse around, and see if you can find a game developer who is genuinely excited about Facebook's involvement.
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"Myopic geeks"? I can't help thinking I've been trolled.
Anyway, I read the blog post, as the AusGamers article was slashdotted before I got there. It mentioned nothing about what Facebook can bring to the Oculus Rift other than "resources". They also talk about long-term commitment, though I guess you would have to ask Zynga on how Facebook have delivered on their commitment to a stable gaming platform previously.
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Or maybe, in order to play Minecraft, etc with an Occulus Rift, or eventually play them at all, everyone would first need to sign up for a Facebook account. Notch made the right call on this one.
He calls Facebook the final piece of the puzzle (Score:4, Funny)
And I call Facebook the final straw.
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IT'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN!
[ insert epic synthesizer intro here ]
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IT'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN!
[ insert epic synthesizer intro here ]
*The world rumbles as millions of geeks dance badly, scaring pets and spilling drinks the world over.*
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Amazing! I can navigate a menu system IN 3D!
VR is the next big thing (Score:2)
Not. VR is definitely cool for games and art, but in many other cases it is overrated. Data analysis, science, or medicine will not really benefit from it in the form of VR headsets.
This is different with augmented reality. This is can really be helpful for many people.
What's so special... (Score:2)
Does anyone know what's so special about Oculus? Do they have some intellectual property that will make them money, or are they just improving on 30 year old ideas [youtube.com]?
It seems to me that all we're waiting for are component prices(high res, compact LCDs and accurate, fast sensors) to drop. Sure, there will be some software work, but we already have stereoscopic support in game engines and now 3d media content.
Sure, there will be a lot of work crafting new interfaces and presentation schemes, but that's all so
Not much (Score:2)
Does anyone know what's so special about Oculus?
Somewhat like bitcoin it has hit a segment of the geek population that thinks it's something especially cool and they've been selling it at a price point that hard core gamers can afford to give it a spin.
Do they have some intellectual property that will make them money, or are they just improving on 30 year old ideas
The later. Occulus is nifty but it's evolutionary improvement on technology that has existed for a long time. There still appears to be no killer use case for their product outside of a small segment of gamers. Facebook paying $2 billion for this company is an absurd overpayment. I seriously cannot fig
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No, Apple had patents. TiVo had patents. If Oculus doesn't have patents, there's a good chance they'll be only a memory in a few years.
Hopefully this will be the boost eyetap needs (Score:2)
But of course, they won't be able to get funded through kickstarter now. That well has been poisoned for this sort of project, at least.
But maybe this will be what convinces an investor to get on board there. And then hopefully that won't become as contaminated as this. And it's what's really wanted, a good augmented reality display. I don't just want to replace life, I want to augment it :p
Good news everyone (Score:2)
Facebook now has VR googles, so we can go visit the inter webs!
What about InfinitEye? (Score:4, Informative)
After the FB/Oculus news, I looked into alternatives and found about this InfinitEye [roadtovr.com] project from France that claims to do 210 degree of horizontal FOV, fully covering the human peripheral vision (while the Rift only does only 90 degrees). I'd pay attention to this one now.
Writing on the wall (Score:2)
It's sounding a lot like this acquisition really has a lot less to do with Facebook itself, than just to do with Facebook's money. FB is in a business that can only be monetized so much. It's also a nook where many predecessors have suddenly gone from most-popular-site-eva to a discarded remnant. Geocities, Myspace, etc were also very popular in their day but inevitably doomed.
If Microsoft could start a successful game console, perhaps FB can move into the VR market. I see disastrous things if they try to m
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I think that everybody who is against this does... what's more is that the most of the people who are against this believe that FB is liable to try this anyways.
But if they can make an awesome VR system that's reasonably priced without turning it some kind of facebook appliance, that's just great. I hope that's what they do.... it's not, however, what I seriously expect to happen.
Because Oculus HR didn't get the memo yet (Score:4, Insightful)
From the article, Abash has been around for 57 years ?
Oculus HR obviously didn't get the memo yet to ignore guys over 30.
Re:Because Oculus HR didn't get the memo yet (Score:4, Insightful)
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There is no one under 30 that can do what Abrash does.
Oh I'm sure there are, but try hiring one. Those bugger shit pure gold.
Maybe because he's the best there ever was? (Score:2)
Guy is one of, if not the, best at assembly optimization, particularly as it pertains to videogames. So if what you want is something that is fast, stable, and highly optimized, well he's one of the best around.
It is highly unlikely Doom would have ever been able to exist at the time it did, were it not for his expertise in optimizations.
"This is the year..." (Score:3, Funny)
"This is the year that virtual reality becomes mainstream" [1-25]
[1] Some guy, (1964.)
[2] Some guy, (1974.)
[3] Some guy, (1979.)
[4] Some guy, (1981.)
[5] Some guy, (1982.)
[6] Some guy, (1983.)
[7] Some guy, (1984.)
[8] Some guy, (1986.)
[9] Some guy, (1989.)
[10] Some guy, (1994.)
[11] Some guy, (1995.)
[12] Some guy, (1996.)
[13] Some guy, (1997.)
[14] Some guy, (1999.)
[15] Some guy, (2000.)
[16] Some guy, (2002.)
[17] Some guy, (2003.)
[18] Some guy, (2006.)
[19] Some guy, (2007.)
[20] Some guy, (2009.)
[21] Some guy, (2010.)
[22] Some guy, (2011.)
[23] Some guy, (2012.)
[24] Some guy, (2013.)
[25] Some guy at Facebook, (2014.)
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In the past, Virtual Reality did not work because the helmets were too heavy, the graphics were too demanding, the screen resolutions and refresh rates were too low, and the motion sensors w
Why VR sucks, except for games (Score:2)
The trouble with VR is that it's hard to do anything in there except move and shoot. Manipulation sucks without force feedback. When VR was first developed, there was a lot of interest in it for CAD. But it didn't help.
Trying to assemble parts in VR is no better than doing it with a mouse and screen. Legos might work. VR Minecraft is quite possible, because things snap into place in easily implemented ways. Real world parts don't fit together as simply.
(Although, thinking about this, it might be possibl
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I don't agree.
I think that VR is most suited for watching 3D movies (especially 3D rides), chatting with your friends and probably watching porn.
This is not a joke !
VR is a nausea device: when you move, you are disorientated because the visual signal is different from your internal sense of balance (in the ears).
Also moving hands is tiring (trying keeping your hands up during 15 minutes, and you'll see what I mean), a joypad is a much better device to reduce waste on movements.
When I tested VR 15 years ago,
Depends on what the puzzle was (Score:4, Funny)
close (Score:2)
Re:Legendary... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Legendary... (Score:5, Informative)
Also responsible for much of the graphics in NT.
Re: Legendary... (Score:4, Interesting)
That was a good book. I remember getting it at Barnes and Noble back in 1996. Back then AP computer science was taught in Pascal. But his book was in C so I couldn't use any of the code samples. But it was pretty easy to convert to Pascal. Made a rudimentary asteroids game in 320x240 VGA (with page flipping! Although I felt his way of loading VGA latches and then writing was too complicated so I just drew to a memory buffer and copied to alternating video pages with vsync) with prerendered graphics. It was absolutely awesome. And then I accidentally deleted my hard driveâ¦
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I've only ever had the online version [drdobbs.com]. Apparently someone recently converted it to Markdown [github.com] (hopefully the generated epub is better than the one I made from the PDF files a while back).
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Graphics Programming Black Book is like the Dragon Book(s) or Design Patterns by the Gang of Four, but for graphics.
And if you don't know about at least one out of those three you may return your diploma back to your university.
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The hell it is.
The Dragon Book of graphics is Computer Graphics: Principles and Practice by Foley and van Dam (and later Feiner and Hughes too). Like CG:PP, the other two books that you mention are books for scientists and engineers. The Black Book is for hackers of the early 1990s.
It's a book which describes a world that no longer exists. We don't have non-pipelined 80386 CPUs, non-existent or slow floating point, VGA data latches, or pretty much anything that the book describes in depth. I remember that w
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Re:Legendary... (Score:5, Informative)
"Michael Abrash is a game programmer and technical writer specializing in optimization and 80x86 assembly language, game programming, a reputation cemented by his 1990 book Zen of Assembly Language Volume 1: Knowledge. Related issues were covered in his later book Zen of Graphics Programming. [...] After working at Microsoft on graphics and assembly code for Windows NT 3.1, he returned to the game industry in the mid-1990s to work on Quake for id Software. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... [wikipedia.org]
Re:Legendary... (Score:5, Informative)
He's well known if you're into the low-level machinery of game graphics.
Re:Legendary... (Score:5, Insightful)
Would never have been an error in the past sadly.
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That just shows how much the demographics of Slashdot have changed.
Re:Legendary... (Score:5, Insightful)
Turn in your geek card.
In addition to what other people have already said, his columns on graphics in the old dead-tree version of DDJ were a must-read.
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Turn in your geek card.
In addition to what other people have already said, his columns on graphics in the old dead-tree version of DDJ were a must-read.
For people into that sort of thing.
Which is but a select subset of a subset of the Slashdot crowd.
Get over yourself... "turn in your geek card" indeed...
What do we have to to do? Make you an offer you can't refuse?
Kids these days.
Re:Legendary... (Score:5, Informative)
Get over yourself... "turn in your geek card" indeed...
No. Seriously. Turn in your geek card.
A geek would be interested even if they werent interested in graphics programming. Thats why Abrash was a writer for Dr Dobbs Programmers Technical Journal, not Graphics Weekly.
I have no interest in writing an operating system, yet Dr Dobbs also covered the porting of BSD to the 386 architecture culminating in 386BSD [wikipedia.org] which I was an avid follower of.
You sir, are a technology brat, not a geek.
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We called 'em script kiddies back in the day.
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A few weeks ago I was talking to a high school age son of a friend. The kid studies music in school but still had no idea who Bob Dylan was.
This isn't quite that bad but it's close.
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> Except I'm not a fucking programmer, and especially not a game programmer.
Submitted story starts with: Programming legend Michael Abrash...
It's great that you're not a programmer and all, but then why would you come into a story about programmer and act all incensed that YOU didn't know who he was? Did you miss the very first word in the description: 'Programming' ? Did you think that we would NOT be discussing about a very legendary person in the programming world?
If you wanted an explanation, you
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If you wanted an explanation, you could have asked for one.
Or he could have taken the 10 seconds to google it instead of being a dick, but the poor fool didn't realize he was wading into a gunfight with a pencil sharpener.
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Should be pretty easy. I've never seen a pencil sharpener with hands so it wouldn't be able to hold a gun, let alone pull the trigger.
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Also, as others mentioned in his Graphics Programming Black Book (which I have), he led and popularized the use of Mode X in VGA adapter cards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... [wikipedia.org]
Having square pixels at 320x240 was significantly easier than having to deal with the odd 320x200 resolution. ... an' git off my lawn! 8)
Re:Legendary... (Score:5, Informative)
You must be kidding me.
When I was in high school, I discovered Abrash's Zen of Graphics Programming, filled with all kinds of gems. And then, Quake came out and there was his Graphics Programming Black Book.
Between x86 optimization, BSP trees, and assorted C/C++ tricks, Abrash's books were bibles at a time when graphics programming was just taking off.
I remember writing my own ray-tracer and 3d engine based on what I learned in his books.
Then there was his book on Zen of Code Optimization, which was amazing and filled with all kinds of computational optimization techniques for a time when not using a memory register effectively meant your render would stop halfway.
Michael Abrash and John Carmack were legends -- their techniques in optimizing rendering engines and their efforts in making graphics programming accessible to wider audiences were instrumental in enabling high end graphics. In fact, makers of graphics cards were known to design features based on optimization techniques that were used in Quake and other rendering engines.
And there was also something called "demo scene", where people built amazing programming snippets of graphics, media, and art. Between that and Abrash and Carmack's work, graphics got to where we are today.
So, yeah. Your question shows an unfortunate level of ignorance on the origins of the graphics programming industry.
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When Quake was being written using a software renderer running only on the Pentium CPU, he wrote the texture mapping triangle rasterizer function in assembler that took advantage of the parallel nature of the Pentium's integer and floating-point units. This gave them the float-point division calculation required for perspective projection calculations for free. Thus software based texture mapping API's were the state-of-the-art of the time.
That led to a whole cascade sequence of strategic moves by SGI, Micr
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Creator of "Big Top" on original IBM PC (Score:2)
I remember being blown away by this game... basically a Donkey Kong style game but on the original IBM PC hardware. I read the review in PC Magazine and asked for it for my 14th birthday... I couldn't believe that things like swinging and jumping from swinging ropes while 4 other AI sprites chased me around was even possible on that original PC.
He even showed off a little by full screen scrolling in between levels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B... [wikipedia.org]
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You might be surprised, but the scope of "graphics programming" is very limited when compared to the entirerty of the software industry.
Making optimizations on a project and putting out a book of tricks hardly qualifies a person to be a software legend. Especially when those tricks are derived from commonly used techniques in much of the embedded system / signal processing development world where resources are extremely limited.
Doesn't mean he's not experienced/good at what he does, but hardly qualifies to
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While you are right about the limited applicability of Abrash's programming techniques, I think it is unfair to reduce his collective contributions to a "book of tricks".
I think the challenge was not merely optimization but also optimization within the limited realm of graphics programming, which had different challenges. You sound like someone who understands the basics needed to successfully optimize hardware and software performance, so I am sure you can appreciate how using a couple of otherwise vacant
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They have a right to think 'WHO' because of course VR is a bioengineering problem not a programming problem. Once the bioengineering is solved, they can move onto computer engineering and then and only then programming, so programming last cab off the rank. Reality is people are already getting sick of the social invasiveness of Facebook, attempting to push it into a social exclusion environment wont solve that problem it in fact makes it far worse.
Re:Legendary... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Not a great measure there. Since plenty of hookers can say they have been 'courted' by billionair CEOs.
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or, most of the people that are despairing are the ones smart enough to see the writing on the wall, while the happy people let their ignorance run everything right off the cliff.
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modded down!!
at the very least +1 funny if not +1 insightful.
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basement