Economist Makes the Case For Slow Level 1 EV Charging (cleantechnica.com) 196
Longtime Slashdot reader Geoffrey.landis writes: Economist Phillip Kobernick makes the case that the emphasis on fast-charging stations for electric vehicles in the U.S. is misplaced. According to an article from CleanTechnica, he argues that, from an economic standpoint, what we should be doing is installing more slow chargers. All thing equal, who wouldn't choose a 10-minute charge over a 3-hour charge or a 10-hour charge? But all things are not equal.
Superfast chargers are far more expensive than Level 2 chargers, and Level 2 chargers are also significantly more expensive than Level 1 charging infrastructure, which consists of normal electricity outlets. He points out that we get 4-7 times more charging capability installed for the same cost by going with Level 1 charging instead of Level 2. And given that people often just plug in their electric vehicles overnight, Level 1 charging can more than adequately provide what is needed in that time. The case is examined in a podcast on the site.
Superfast chargers are far more expensive than Level 2 chargers, and Level 2 chargers are also significantly more expensive than Level 1 charging infrastructure, which consists of normal electricity outlets. He points out that we get 4-7 times more charging capability installed for the same cost by going with Level 1 charging instead of Level 2. And given that people often just plug in their electric vehicles overnight, Level 1 charging can more than adequately provide what is needed in that time. The case is examined in a podcast on the site.
We need both! (Score:5, Informative)
We need both!
Cheap slow chargers near where people live and work.
Fast chargers on travel routes.
nobody needs a fast charger at home, and a slow charger at a highway rest stop is basically useless.
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Review your reasoning with some facts:
>Government requiring no more ICE vehicles, particularly in cities.
>People in cities w/o opportunity to commute via government mass transit are all forced to use vehicles needing charging.
ALL of those people will require access to those slow re-chargers during the workday else they would have been close enough to use the government mass transit.
When in seattle my commute was only 10 miles, an hour+ each way...
You need to run the heater, windshield wipers, and ligh
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Your facts don't in any way refute what the OP was said. The problem is solved with putting slow chargers everywhere and fast chargers in major transit locations.
As for your comment on heaters, windshield wipers, and lights, that was a very good way of telling the world you have zero experience with EVs. Even in the worst case conditions the things you listed being permanently on are a pittance of the energy consumption for an EV. These aren't normal ICE cars with a small 5kg battery. You can run all of the
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The problem with democracy is that people like you exist.
BEVs have batteries with sufficient capacity so that they do not have to be charged during the day.
Re: We need both! (Score:3)
I own a Honda Clarity PHEV. It gets 35-45 miles per charge. Currently reading 200mpg, because I don't have long commutes and an overnight charge (about a buck-seventy here) is sufficient, and if not, I can switch to hybrid mode.
Not for everyone or for every case, but I did my research and it worked out.
Re: We need both! (Score:4)
I own a Honda Clarity PHEV. It gets 35-45 miles per charge. Currently reading 200mpg, because I don't have long commutes and an overnight charge (about a buck-seventy here) is sufficient, and if not, I can switch to hybrid mode.
Not for everyone or for every case, but I did my research and it worked out.
Applied sanity over spontaneous virtue signalling. I like it. I tip my hat to you.
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The downside is that you have the cost of maintaining that ICE. Presumably you have done the maths and decides that the expense is worth the trade off, but for many people the numbers show an EV being cheaper.
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It's hysterical that you talk about the "public good", SuperKendall. You've suddenly turned communist? Only one member of the public gets to use it? How many members of the public get to use your house at night?
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"3-7 times more expensive for a level-2 charger."
That's a lie. Amazing how many people have fallen for that.
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Indeed. Well, as long as you're not entering Level-3 technology, Level 1 and 2 can range from "Free" to a few thousand dollars.
To wit, "free" level 1 charging can be "outlet already in your garage"
Free level 2 charging could be using the pack of adapters that at least used to come with Teslas to plug into an already existing 220V outlet. Perhaps a previous owner installed a welding outlet, for example, or you can also use the dryer outlet.
The only way I get to around 3-7 times the install charge is if we'
A mix is required. (Score:5, Insightful)
In highway services, the faster the charger the better, you want to recharge and be on your way, just like you do with a gas vehicle.
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Exactly. I generally wouldn't care if charging at home takes 10 hours, I'll be eating, sleeping, and relaxing most of that time.
But if charging on the road takes 10 hours, I need to stick with gas or plug-in hybrid.
Slow charging at work might be useful for some, but would mostly be limited to people who work too far from home to make the round trip on a charge. Hopefully that's a small number.
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With L1, charging at home would take days, not hours.
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"So you can calculate wintertime in your EV with a European sized vehicle and you get close to “I need to charge everywhere I stop” problem..."
No you don't, and it's clear you can't "calculate". Also, those "European sized vehicles"! Good thing we've got Trump coming, that'll fix it, right?
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I have a 30 amp 240 V circuit in the carport. And the shop has 240 V circuits as well. They are not that rare.
208 V is common in some apartment buildings, can EV chargers deal with that?
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Yes, these are perfect for level 2 charger.
You could also use single phase-neutral and use level 1 charging too
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"The problem is how many 30A circuits can your house or apartment building support? And if everyone in the neighborhood does that, what can your pole supply do."
But those problems remain constant regardless of the "L1 vs L2" issue that's the subject of this article. The claim is that L1 is cheaper, but L1 and L2 require the exact same hardware, it's only peak demand that changes. For L1 to cost less, total demand for power must remain low enough to avoid upgrading those "poles". In other words, for the a
Re:A mix is required. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think this might be a case where the economist is using different than normal terminology, or may not have actually done the charging math.
He talks about 10 minute, 3 hour, or 10 hour charge. Thing is, with a modern Tesla or similar EV, level 1 charging isn't 10 hours. 60 kWh@1500 watts is 40 hours.
I mean, he has some point - there are certainly EV owners out there who don't bother with anything past level 1 charging at home and do just fine. I just think that for most use cases level 2 charging is a much better choice. Level 2 charging is good for when you have like 1-12 hours to charge up, and don't need or want to be on the road again in the next 15 minutes.
The critical cheapness of level 1 charging is that you don't generally need to install anything. But it isn't going to satisfy range anxiety pretty much anywhere, because who wants to charge for an hour simply to be able to reach the closest charging station? Where your hour long grocery shopping trip might only get you enough charging to reach home? 1.5kWh is ~4.3 miles, given that EVs use about 0.35 kWh per mile.
A level 2 charger also provides interesting possibilities like Vehicle to Home/Grid/Load (V2H,V2G,V2L) options for bidirectional power transfer, the assurance that your vehicle will be at full charge in the morning, that you have the capability to charge enough if you have to do some extra driving, etc...
And "overbuilt" for charging at apartments and condos - the ability to charge faster also allows things like load balancing! If you're stuck with ~1.5kW, you NEED to charge the entire night. What if there's a power outage? What about the power demand spike when everybody is getting home and starting dinner? With 7kW charging, you can wait until people get to bed, THEN charge up the cars and still have them full in the morning.
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I think this might be a case where the economist is using different than normal terminology, or may not have actually done the charging math.
Which is to say he's an economist, he doesn't really know what he is talking about.
The larger point he makes may still be correct. We may be able to get more economic benefit from putting our major effort into making slower chargers ubiquitous. The large of capacity of most EV's goes unused most of the time. A PHEV that gives you 25 miles can easily be charged with a standard outlet overnight and fully charged the next day. That is the typical daily use for many people no matter what vehicle they own. The
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I think he's largely talking about L1 charging at home. Specifically TFS talks about overnight charging. You don't go drive to the supermarket or a truck stop to sleep overnight.
Also "60 kWh@1500 watts is 40 hours." Virtually no one using a L1 charger is loading up their battery from flat. They are topping up their battery post commute. It doesn't matter if your battery is 20kWh, 60kWh or 100kWh, if your commute is only 10 miles each way then you're only putting in 5kWh in your Model 3 at the end of the day
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"...if your commute is only 10 miles each way then you're only putting in 5kWh in your Model 3 at the end of the day from your L1 charger."
If your daily drive is 20 miles, L1 is fine. If only that were the case that got made. Instead, a bunch of lies were told about L1 infrastructure being cheaper without any consideration of what requirements would actually exist.
"Or to put it in average travel terms: If you travel the average 42miles / day that an American does (this stat includes some wildly long commu
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Not when there's so much talk about install costs, and he lists work and apartments as an option. The critical thing about apartments is that they're probably going to want to NOT just install regular outlets, but have something that either restricts the charging to residents(and hits their meter/bill) or charges money. At which point the difference in install costs dwindles to nothing.
I used 60kWh@1500 watts rather than 100 to 1: Keep the math easy, 2: Not assuming flat given that the average of EV batte
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Is in US terminology is "Level 1" specifically 120V? In Europe the slowest chargers we have on 230V are about 2.5kW.
In any case, the point that is being missed is that most people are not charging their battery fully every day. Their daily usage is nowhere near 60kWh, it's less than what even a slow charger can provide overnight.
It's actually not just overnight either. That's typically the cheapest time to charge, unless you have solar, but there is no reason why you can't be charging basically all the time
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~2.5kW is enough to be considered L2 charging. It's close to the bottom for a dedicated EV charger in the USA, which is ~3kW.
It gets to be annoying if you're trying to charge every time you stop, so a L2 charger that allows you to charge up for/from the longer occasional trip without needing to visit a charging station for a fast charge.
It also allows load balancing, and thus cheaper electricity.
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.
There are, of course, people for whom this isn't enough. But for the vast majority whose roun
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The trick here is that you plug in when your car is parked. If you're going to the mall to spend a few hours, a level 1 charger is to replenish the charge it took getting f
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A good point on "lots of chargers" - but I think I'd still want 240V, even if it's only 3kW or so. It gives you enough overhead in case of longer commutes or the need to stop charging for a bit in load leveling strategies.
Re:A mix is required. (Score:5, Insightful)
The trick here is that you plug in when your car is parked. If you're going to the mall to spend a few hours, a level 1 charger is to replenish the charge it took getting from home to the mall.
I'm just gonna assume that by "mall" you meant places people actually go these days. If you have charging at home, dealing with slow chargers is an unnecessary hassle, unless they're providing free juice. Even then, sometimes I'd rather just take a closer parking spot.
If you don't have charging at home, owning an EV is a major hassle that isn't going to be remedied by expecting that people are going to want to deal with constantly plugging in and unplugging their cars everywhere they go. I have an EV because the overwhelming majority of the time I only have to deal with the cord once per day. I unplug the car when I leave and then plug it back in when I'm home for the night. If I had to deal with a routine of plugging in for a few hours everywhere I went, I'd have stuck with gas. Plus, my own experience with public chargers is that people beat them to shit. There's a few free L2 chargers at my local Whole Foods - both of them are broken. The Superchargers near me are regularly subject to collision damage. [x.com] So, the only way you can truly count on that your car will be able to charge every day is knowing you have a charger at home (and unlike the "we have X at home" meme, the charger at home is the one that isn't crap).
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"Remember, you want to charge opportunistically..."
No, I don't. That's just a potential solution when there are not better ones.
Nothing in your babble doesn't also apply to L2 charging. It's also "slow charging", just not as slow. And a million L1 chargers cost more to install, AND MAINTAIN, than 250K L2 chargers, where both might service the same charging rate. Sure, you're a ¼ as likely to get a charging spot "opportunistically", but you charge 4x faster when you do. The battery is there to do t
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Yeah... level 1 chargers are useless for EV's with big battery packs like an Hummer EV or a Tesla Cybertruck. The total charge time from 20% to 100% would be measured in days, not hours.
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The goal isn't a full charge from 20% though, it's intended to be more like a top-off. IE you have a 10 mile commute to work, do you really need a level 2 charger? 1kWh ~ 3 miles. 8 hour shift should be enough for around 12 kWh, or 36 miles. More than enough.
My concern is that I spent time in Alaska and North Dakota - where we plugged in block heaters regularly. I'll admit that plugging in at above zero temperatures isn't the same level as plugging in at -30, but it still adds up to annoyance if you ha
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A Cybertruck or Hummer is more like 2 miles for 1KWh, so 12 kWh is 24 miles, barely enough. Also, public L1 charging, particularly at scale, will not occur at 120V, there will be a lot of sag. You won't get 1.5 KW, you'll get 1.2. Hell, in my L1 spot I get only 1.0. Finally, my Model Y consumes over 200 watts continuously when it is parked but active, as is the case when it charges. When I charge at my saggy outlet, I get only 800 W into the battery, and this would be common at mass L1 stations. Sudde
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Yeah, we need a mix.
But indeed there is a case, let's say at target for 5 fast charger and 50 slow chargers. If slow chargers are that cheap to install, then having many can be useful. Essentially, anywhere you stop, you plug in while you shop. Unless you are particularly low on battery, slow charge is probably fine.
The question is how much cheaper are they? My guess is that a significant cost in installing L1 charger is to dig for wirering, to set up the commercial station and things of that sort. These co
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Level 1 is a bit too low powered for modern battery packs of 70kWh+.
It is not because the size of the battery pack has nothing to do with vehicle consumption. You can have a 100kWh+ battery pack and it makes no difference to your commute than a 20kWh pack. The L1 charger will give you the same range in the same time. Virtually all commuters do not even remotely consume enough power to need more than L1 charging, regardless of their battery size because they still only commute to and from work.
L1 street chargers however would be pointless. You don't want to tie people to str
no fast chargers (Score:2)
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People driving gas vehicles will NOT put up with waiting hours to charge their vehicle.
See, this is where EVs *could* have an edge - slow chargers are helpful in places where people are doing something other than charging their car, and don't need a full tank. Movie theaters, malls, houses of worship, theme parks, laundromats, gyms, concert venues, sports stadiums...if they're going to be there for an hour anyway and they can add an extra hundred miles to their range, that's a nifty bonus.
Now, you're absolutely right that a dedicated EV charging location isn't going to do itself any favors by
My case for slow chargers (Score:3)
I want a fast charger when I am on a road trip.
I want a slow charger when I am close to home.
Here is why. When I go to Target, I hook up to a charger that will fill my car in less than 15 minutes. After that, it is something like a $1 a minute to just park there. The charge station is too expensive for people just sitting there so they have to charge that to keep availability high. 15 minutes barely enough time to get through the checkout line let alone a 2 hour shop. And have you ever taken the wife to Target?
My best case is that the whole lot is filled with slow chargers that don't charge much if anything for post-charge parking time. That would be the same for office parking lots and such. I have seen some cities talk about adding charge stations to parking meter sites on a large scale (tap local lamp-post for power and make revenue from the infrastructure). That's the right direction.
Parsing (Score:3)
My best case is that the whole lot is filled with slow chargers that don't charge much if anything for post-charge parking time.
Had to read it three times.
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Yeah, it's a bit hard to read.
Th example is like an inner-city parking schemes: Due to the extreme lack of availability, they charge a lot to make sure you don't keep parking when you are not charging. This makes sense when you have like 2-4 charging spots in the whole parking lot.
The proposed fix is to take the same wattage of charging and spread it out to most of the parking lot.
If, say, 80% of the parking lot has available charging spots, especially if they're relatively slow so that most people who pa
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Sounds like the only reason you actually “want” a slow charger, is because Greed in society is charging too much for the alternative.
Imagine if the electric company could tell when you were fast charging your smartphone at home and suddenly started charging a $20 fee every time it detected fast-charging. Do you think society would have welcomed the idea of “just get a slow charger and plug in your smartphone for hours instead”, or do you think society would have had a fucking revolt
It's all statistics. Parkmeter == chargers. (Score:2)
It is scary to take your EV or a long trip. A trip that takes you outsize it's range. This is where a system of fast charger is needed.
But if the most of the driving is home-work-home with occasional home-shopping/entertainment than you need charges at home and at work and these can perhaps be slow as you have whole night or work day to charge. You just need them at every parking place, just like parkmeters the city.
In other news, economist is idiot. (Score:2)
Slow charging is good, yes, and you should use it whenever practical. I always try to charge at the lowest practical current during the daytime when I have excess solar. It is only really a practical solution at home or at work though.
But there are times where I need the full 240V/48A, even at home. And, when driving more than 400 miles in a day you really need over 100kW chargers available for mid-trip charging.
240VAC single phase is a "normal" outlet! (Score:3)
30A 240VAC circuits are nothing special: it's what electric clothes dryers plug into, among other things. I installed one for maybe $50 in parts including circuit breakers, and the Level 2 EVSE ("charger", which it isn't) came with my car.
120VAC household circuits are too slow and it's not a great idea to run any circuit at capacity for a heavy duty application like this: stuff gets hot and maybe does Bad Things in the middle of the night.
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If I were to setup an apartment complex with chargers for tenants, I would go with installing a level 1 charger at around 12 amps. The 120VAC single phase circuit is going to be a lot cheaper to bring into a panel service of each tenant, which a sized for an oven and not usually a dryer. As dryer circuits are not typically on the tenant panel but on the complex's larger panel.
Not that I know of any apartment complexes installing EV chargers in every space. But I think they should. Or rather EV technology ne
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6/3 romex is around $4.00/foot (vs. $1.25/foot for 12/3) at Home Depot, so labor is going to dominate costs.
If I rolled in at 10:00PM with 10% remaining on my 60kWh battery and needed to drive somewhere far in the morning, I'd be bummed to come out at 6:00AM and find only 12kWh had been delivered of the 54kWh needed to fill 'er up. Level 2 @ 6.6kW would probably have it at 95%+ in the same tim
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If I were to setup an apartment complex with chargers for tenants, I would go with installing a level 1 charger at around 12 amps.
Actually, the neat thing about electricity is that if you double the voltage you can push twice the total wattage through the same gauge wire. There's even an outlet standard for 240v at 15A: NEMA 6-15 [homedepot.com] You'd use exactly the same wire as you would for a 120v 15A circuit, so there's no additional costs.
It's not a common plug standard used for EVSEs, but Tesla does sell a NEMA 6-15 adapter for their Mobile Connector.
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But your solution does go a long way toward overcoming objections.
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Finally, someone said it.
L2 is 240V, L1 is 120V. That's the entire difference. There is NO cost advantage to using L1. Everything in the article is contrived by a very ignorant person.
The entire argument presented is that there is somehow value in slowing down charging rate to force the typical commuter to need all 8 hours to charge, then using the increased demand for cabling to add many more charge bays to "save" money. It is as stupid as it can possibly be, and it completely fails to address the real
Who's "we"? (Score:2)
what we should be doing is installing more slow chargers
Does he mean me? Because I'll put in whatever I want and can afford in my own garage. I don't have to go along with some consensus on what society or economists think is best.
Does he mean public chargers? Publicly funded? Because there, he is right. Sort of. If you look solely at the kW delivered per public dollar spent, then Level 1 (slow) chargers are best. But if you add in the opportunity cost of time spent waiting, they are next to worthless. The only place that Level 1 chargers make any sense are in
Opinion (Score:3)
I, personally, would not purchase an EV if I didn't have the ability to charge at home. One of the stronger value propositions of EVs is waking up to a "full tank" every morning.
Level 1 charging *at home* is one of those 80% things. 80% of the time it'll cover my needs just fine. 20% of the time I'll have to go looking for L2 charging. L1 charging when out and about is a hard 100% no. The "miles per hour" you can pump across a 120V circuit is just too low.
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Counter opinion: I don't have the opportunity to charge at home and yet my EV spends it's entire life above 70% battery (unless I do a long trip somewhere). Ubiquitous charging infrastructure is important. My car is always full despite not having the ability to park at my house because I can charge at work. Except last Thursday, all the chargers were full, so I charged at the sport centre while playing squash instead. Oh and on Saturday where I charged in the multi-story parking lot at the cinema.
Probably I
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Unless I'm mistaken, L1 charging, what this advocates, doesn't exist in Europe. Would you see significant value in rolling out a bunch of charging infrastructure that could only put 10 kilometers of range in a battery in 8 hours?
Let me guess, he lives in socal or FL? (Score:3)
You know, where it never gets cold enough that you'd need L2 in order to heat the battery pack and have power leftover to charge it. L1/120V@15A doesn't cut it in winter in the midwest.
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You know, where it never gets cold enough that you'd need L2 in order to heat the battery pack and have power leftover to charge it. L1/120V@15A doesn't cut it in winter in the midwest.
Finding out about the need to warm the battery pack on your new EV car, is like opening up the manual on your new ICE vehicle and reading about your once-a-month obligation to pull-start the fucking thing.
Can’t even begin to describe how much of a fail that is. Worst EV secret ever.
They are both necessary (Score:3)
Slow charging at home or at a place like a motel where you spend a lot of time
Fast charging on the highway for road trips
A slow charger on the road would make road trips impractical
Makes no sense (Score:2)
If charging at home is what is needed, then most homes already support Level 2 because most homes have circuits for electric clothes dryers. The EVSE costs for Level 2 are not more than for Level 1. If Level 2 is available at home, then no one will use Level 1, except for those users who are concerned about long-term battery capacity degradation. Well, no one except people like me. I typically use Level 1 at home because I have an old home with no space to park in the garage, but mostly because I drive
L1 cannot share for multiple cars (Score:2)
We need Level 1 charging at airports (Score:2)
The one place where Level 1 charging makes a lot of sense is airport parking lots.
If I'm on a week-long vacation, then a 40-hour charging time is perfectly acceptable. And the lower cost would allow the airport to install a lot more stations. Level 2 charging at airports is just overkill.
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A very good point. Plus, most EVs have vampiric loads - they consume power even when "off". That was the actual cause for the pileup at a Tesla supercharger station in Chicago that hit the news. Not the cold. What happened is that there was a flight with an unusual number of EV/Tesla drivers. They'd been gone for a week or so, but left their cars in "watch" mode, so extra energy use. So they got back to low batteries, all at more or less the same time, and headed for the same recharge station. Queue
plain lie (Score:2)
"Level 2 chargers are also significantly more expensive than Level 1 charging infrastructure"
False. Level 2 is 240V, Level 1 is 120V. Level 1 infrastructure IS Level 2 infrastructure, just only one leg of it. They cost the same.
Actually both (Score:2)
Slow chargers make sense in homes, on streets and carparks where cars spend a long time idle. Think of people whose routine mostly revolves around driving between home, office, mall and places like that with the car sat there for 22 hours of the day. Fast chargers can go where people are doing longer trips - along highways for example.
So the sensible option would be to oblige all new road & building to install slow charging infrastructure & renewables via regulations and to incentive what already ex
economics models depends on what you value (Score:2)
One can also make a purely "economic case" that we would be "better off" turning the poor into agricultural mulch.
Turns out, economic models depend highly on what you value in the model. Solving for least-cost isn't always the solution the real world needs. Level 1 charging IS the best solution, when time isn't valued (and is currently used for that, e.g.while people are sleeping). Suggesting that level 1 charging is of general use for people during the day who are trying to accomplish things in a world
L2 chargers are NOT significantly more expensive (Score:2)
The author of the article make the claim that Level 2 chargers are significantly more expensive than Level 1 chargers. I disagree. They *can* be significantly more expensive, but they don't have to be.
In the SAE J1772 standard, the charging levels denote voltage, phase, and a few other bits. But in short, Level 1 is 110-120V while Level 2 is 208V and 220-240V.
But when running new branch circuits, current drives cost more than voltage. A higher current circuit requires thicker wire, which in turn require
Re: Fast charging (Score:2)
Most of the expensive charging is a rip-off, someone out to makw fast money and then bail out when it starts to go downhill.
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They're mostly trying to recoup the cost of the installed charger, then get some profit along the way after that. Level 1 is perfect for home, no extra installation needed most of the time (barring making sure you've got the right outlets in the garage).
Level 1 may be ok at work, where' you're parked all day. But with multiple people sharing a limited set of chargers, level 2 is better . Even then Teslas are such battery hogs that it can take 8 hours to charge that way, and they're NOT charging every day
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They're mostly trying to recoup the cost of the installed charger, then get some profit along the way after that. Level 1 is perfect for home, no extra installation needed most of the time (barring making sure you've got the right outlets in the garage).
Level 1 may be ok at work, where' you're parked all day. But with multiple people sharing a limited set of chargers, level 2 is better . Even then Teslas are such battery hogs that it can take 8 hours to charge that way, and they're NOT charging every day I think, they just wait until they're nearly empty then use the work space. (either that, or they're just rude in not sharing?)
Tesla vehicles typically require one or two full charging sessions per week if charged for eight hours at a time. With a Level 2 charger, this adds approximately 170 to 250 miles of range, depending on the charger's specifications.
Level 1 charging, by contrast, is likely insufficient for most driving needs. For instance, if you have a 20-mile daily commute, it would take about 20 hours of charging each day to replenish the battery. This makes it impractical to confine charging to off-peak hours when elect
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Most people drive less than 30 miles a day. This takes less than 10 kWh which can easily be provided in less than 6 hours with a standard 120v socket overnight when electricity is cheaper.
Unstoppable force, meet immovable object... (Score:2)
My concern is this. Without going into politics, we have a very pro cryptocurrency administration, and we have companies betting their soul on high-energy AI matrix multiplication for their LLMs. Both of these are extremely power hungry. If an area manages to get an infrastructure where energy is cheap and the power grid is solid, the Bitcoin mining companies will move in. Compared to the money behind BTC versus people pro-EV, I just don't see why people would go for EVs, especially because the infrastr
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Is more expensive than gasoline right now at current prices.
I just picked the closest level 3 charger to my house.
Level 3 - $0.62 CDN / kWh
My shiny new EV has an 84kWh battery. So $52.08 for a 0 to 100% charge, netting a 365 km distance.
The cheapest regular gas in my city is $1.429/L right now.
To math that out, a 30MPG car is 7.84 L/100km. 365 km is 3.65 times that, or 32L, which is $46.10 worth of gas.
If you've got a car that you're getting 30MPG in and it uses regular, you're marginally ahead with gas. If your car isn't that efficient or uses premium (s
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but making stuff up just makes EV-opposition look... dumb/wrong.
They're probably not making stuff up, it's location dependent.
My Chevy Bolt gets about 3.5 miles per kWh if I keep up with the right lane traffic on the highway, and pretty much nails the EPA rating of 4 miles per kWh with a mix of highway and suburban driving. If I'm generous and go with the EPA rating, that's 12.25 cents per mile at what the Tesla Superchargers cost in my area ($0.49 per kWh). Not too long ago Tesla opened the Supercharger network to GM, so it is actually a valid price point.
Regular gas
Re: Fast charging (Score:2)
Yeah my Insight is all Aluminum, will never rust, and I average well into the 80mpg range with the lowest being in the 60s. Without any battery which died years ago.
I prefer gasoline. 1700lbs of corner carving fun, manual transmission, 160 miles costs me under 2 gallons of gas.
Re:Isn't an issue... (Score:4)
if they don't have a home charger, they need to move somewhere that does.
As someone who has two EVs in my household, if we couldn't charge at home we'd have stuck with ICE. Moving is just not a practical or affordable solution compared against just sticking with cars that run on gas.
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I can't charge at home and I have no problem with my EV. The thing is I live in a place where charging infrastructure is ubiquitous. There's level 2 chargers all over my suburb. We have level 2 chargers at supermarkets, at sport centers, heck we have a bank of 20 of them at my work. When I drive internationally on business I charge at hotels, parking garages, and if I really need to I'll stop at a supercharger.
Yeah most people if they can should be doing L1 charging at home, ideally with a smart system that
Re: Isn't an issue... (Score:2)
I'm in America and I'd say it is an issue but not as much of one as you might think. Yea it takes a little bit of planning but we've taken road trips of >250 miles with our EV. Now that Tesla is opening up the Supercharger network to mother brands, it will get better. I'm even planning a cross country trip in our Tesla, and the charging stops nicely align with my planned rest breaks.
Out of curiosity, where do you live that EV charging seems so easy?
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No, they should be doing L2 charging at home.
Indeed.
L1 is 110v @ 15 amps. That's a normal socket like you use for a lamp.
L2 is 220v @ 30 amps. That's a socket you'd use for an electric dryer or stove.
L2 charges four times as fast.
Many people already have a 220 outlet in their garage. Adding one can cost a few hundred bucks.
If we're gonna install outdoor chargers for people without garages, there's no reason to install 110v instead of 220v.
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No, they should be doing L2 charging at home.
Indeed.
L1 is 110v @ 15 amps. That's a normal socket like you use for a lamp.
L2 is 220v @ 30 amps. That's a socket you'd use for an electric dryer or stove.
L2 charges four times as fast.
Many people already have a 220 outlet in their garage. Adding one can cost a few hundred bucks.
If we're gonna install outdoor chargers for people without garages, there's no reason to install 110v instead of 220v.
Last I checked your "a few hundred bucks" was actually more like $1500.
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Last I checked your "a few hundred bucks" was actually more like $1500.
I paid $200, but my fusebox is in my garage, making it much easier.
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If you only paid $200, you probably got the cheapest (most dangerous) breaker, wire and socket and a cheap electrician who is clueless about the code.
Good luck with that.
Re: Isn't an issue... (Score:3)
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L1 charging (standard 120v 15 amp circuit that everyone has at home) is sufficient for most people for everyday driving. (30 miles a day - 10 kWh)
If you need to install an outlet, it's much cheaper to install a standard 120 outlet than a 240 socket which requires heavy wiring and a dedicated new breaker circuit from the breaker box.
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If you RTFA, you'll find out that most people only drive less than 30 miles a day and that this amount of electricity (about 10 kWh) can be easily obtained from a ubiquitous standard 120v 15 amp circuit in a few hours overnight.
If you're taking a long trip, you can use L2 and L3 chargers.
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A full charge would, but why are you fully draining your battery before recharging?
Because I would decide to go on a weekend driving trip and then realise it's Thursday or Friday and my car isn't charged. If I have to go and hunt for a fast charger at that point, it won't be worth it.
Re: Isn't an issue... (Score:2)
Maybe you could have whined about it in 1572, but illiteracy is your problem, not for the rest of us.
Re: Isn't an issue... (Score:2)
Uhhhh, the word has been around for literally centuries, pass.me.some.of.that shit you're smoking.
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Esp with high interest rates and the housing market being what it is. If you own a home the safe bet is staying put.
Re: Isn't an issue... (Score:2)
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Youre on crack. In 2002 rates were 4.5% and in 2012 they were 3.35%. Now they are 7.5% which makes them similar to the 90s. But at the same time home values inflation has gotten to the point where a 1% increase in interest can mean $500 increase in a mortgage payment. 7.5% isnt anywhere near the same 7.5% it was in the 90s. Those $45k 3BR 1BR ranch homes now cost $180k or more. People are being priced out of new home buying. From what I have read about FL, even millionaires are being priced out of the mark
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"you will buy an EV for your next car, or you will not be buying a new car"
Fortunately that is not actually a thing.
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With EVs becoming, "you will buy an EV for your next car, or you will not be buying a new car", the price will settle down once most of the market is on EVs. Plus, people have chargers at home which makes the need for fast charging not as much, and if they don't have a home charger, they need to move somewhere that does.
This will go away as adoption gets mainstream.
Why do you think the price will “settle down”, especially after pressure comes to eliminate government subsidies? The price of gas or electric has hardly affected the perpetually rising MSRP of any type of car, so that’s basically a non factor. The “low” price for any car is still $35K+ and has barely started to come down from the wholly insane MSRP+20% days.
And believe me people will need EV fast chargers at home for the same reason they need fast chargers now for smartphone
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Fast chargers at home are an impossibility. L2 charging is NOT fast charging.
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L1 charging adds 5 km/hour.
L2 charging adds 20 km/hour.
L2 will almost always be good enough for a full charge when parked overnight.
L1 will be good enough for normal commuting but not always for longer trips.
Disclaimer: My garage has L2.
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"...and if they don't have a home charger, they need to move somewhere that does."
Sounds like the Ben Shapiro solution to sea level rise.
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Premature deterioration can be prevented by two things:
1. Use a 20A circuit rather than a 15A one.
2. Don't use the cheapest sockets available. Use spec/commercial grade or higher. I might spend 10x as much on my outlets, but they're actually easier to install than the cheap ones and I can be absolutely brutal to them and they won't fail. No noticeable heating under load, for one.