Ford's Stock Drops 20% After $1.1 Billion Loss on EV Business (msn.com) 238
Ford's stock dropped 20% this week — mostly falling off the cliff Wednesday after failing to meet Wall Street's expectations for its quarterly profits, according to MarketWatch — and notching "another billion-dollar loss on EVs."
"The remaking of Ford is not without its growing pains," Ford Chief Executive Jim Farley said on a call with investors after the results. "We look forward to proving our EV strategy out. That has become more realistic and sharpened by the tough environment." Ford is "confident" it can reduce losses and sustain a profitable business in the future, he added. The car maker plans to focus on "very differentiated" EVs priced under $40,000 and $30,000, and on two segments, work and adventure, Farley said.
Larger EVs will be part of the picture, but success there will require more breakthroughs on costs, the CEO said, adding that Ford's EV journey overall has been "humbling...."
The results included an EBIT loss of $1.1 billion for Ford's EV segment, "amid ongoing industrywide pricing pressure on first-generation electric vehicles and lower wholesales," the car maker said... Ford kept its expectations that the EV business will lose between $5.0 billion and $5.5 billion for the year, "with continued pricing pressure and investments in next-generation electric vehicles," it said.
Ford's CEO went on to say that their company is totally open to partnerships for electric vehicles, according to the article. "This is absolutely a flip-the-script moment for our company."
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader sinij for sharing the news.
Larger EVs will be part of the picture, but success there will require more breakthroughs on costs, the CEO said, adding that Ford's EV journey overall has been "humbling...."
The results included an EBIT loss of $1.1 billion for Ford's EV segment, "amid ongoing industrywide pricing pressure on first-generation electric vehicles and lower wholesales," the car maker said... Ford kept its expectations that the EV business will lose between $5.0 billion and $5.5 billion for the year, "with continued pricing pressure and investments in next-generation electric vehicles," it said.
Ford's CEO went on to say that their company is totally open to partnerships for electric vehicles, according to the article. "This is absolutely a flip-the-script moment for our company."
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader sinij for sharing the news.
Running out of EV customers? (Score:5, Interesting)
I suspect that everyone who can afford an EV and doesn't have some irrational dislike of them (or perhaps a legitimate reason they can't use one) already owns one. The average new car buyer now has an income of around $80k, and EVs are more expensive than average.
Re:Running out of EV customers? (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect that everyone who can afford an EV and doesn't have some irrational dislike of them (or perhaps a legitimate reason they can't use one) already owns one.
No, some of us just don't replace our cars every 3-4 years.
My next car will likely be an EV - it may even be an F-150 Lightning - but that purchase is still a few years out.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
That's another way of describing the same issue. As of 2020, the average privately owned commuter vehicle in America aged out at 12 years old (~144,000 miles). Today's newest import ICE sedans can EASILY make it to 200,000 miles with regular maintenance. Hybrids will last longer.
Given the longevity of newer ICE vehicles, the time to fuel an EV, the complexity of finding EV fueling stations, and the price of EVs, we're not going to see people ditching their ICE vehicles for hybrid, PHEV, or pure BEV nearly a
Re: (Score:2)
Hybrids are selling fine. PHEVs are still having teething issues. EVs won't take off until you can go cross country with fast charging and not have to worry about planning out every last stop.
Re:Running out of EV customers? (Score:4, Insightful)
At least with buyers who care about cross country driving. Many purchases, including second cars, are not for long distance travel at all. EV's do not have to be good for "cross country" to take off. If they did, Tesla would have never succeeded.
Re:Running out of EV customers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I've never gotten why some people think the "they don't work well for a trip across the US" argument against EVs makes much sense. It's like arguing that people shouldn't buy sedans because they're no good when you want to buy a new couch.
Re: (Score:3)
There are a LOT of people across the US, that do not make enough money to have 2nd, 3rd and 4th cars around the household.
So, if you have to stretch your dollars at all, you don't buy specialized vehicles...you need ones that will pretty much "do it all" for you, i
Re: (Score:3)
Well put. Even some of us who could technically afford it can't see the sense in a single driver household owning a bunch of vehicles. In my case I have an older F-350 Diesel for those things where I need to haul stuff; it's paid for and it gets the job done reliably. So for my second vehicle I wanted something comfortable, convenient, and capable of everything the big old Ford wasn't going to get pressed into service for. That ended up being a PHEV 7 seater, and I have to say that thing was one of the best
Re: (Score:3)
In this economy where people are having problems buying food....LESS and less of them are buying "second cars".
Re: (Score:2)
Honestly, not Toyota ones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Chinese still have teething issues. And US/European ones are straight up garbage in comparison to both, because they were pushed by their local regulators to jump from ICE to EV, and ignore hybrids "because that's just intermediate stage to EV utopia". Now we're finding out that that was a very expensive mistake.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't know what "proponents" you're talking about. Nobody serious believes that the whole fleet will be transformed overnight. It's hard eough for production just to keep up with the growth delta on the rate of new vehicles entering the fleet.
The average price of a new vehicle sold in the US is over $47k. EVs are on average somewhat more expensive if you only look at purchase prices, but if you look at a long-term lease or loan, plus operations cost, plus residual value at the end of the period, EVs ar
Re: Running out of EV customers? (Score:2)
Yes, there are people, some in government, who expect this kind of thing can be willed into existence with policy and will happen in a few short years if only the right laws were to be passed.
The original version of the AOC/Ed Markey green new deal called for upgrading something like 100 million existing buildings to modern building codes and converting them to electric heat inside of a decade.
Pure fantasy to anyone who's living in a 50's or 60's house with 100 amp service and a gas-fired boiler, stove, hea
Re: (Score:2)
And you think this somehow expresses an interesting perspective. Proper policy can make a big difference, but it does not do everything on its own. Vision is essential, vision isn't provided by the "free market".
"The original version of the AOC/Ed Markey green new deal called for upgrading something like 100 million existing buildings to modern building codes and converting them to electric heat inside of a decade."
Electric heat would be great with entirely renewable energy, but you didn't misrepresent an
Re: (Score:2)
Right. Air travel, semiconductors, personal computers, video games, and smart phones all came about through government mandates and legislative vision.
No? Well, then they must have originated in parts of the world not exercising free market capitalism. Still no?
Well, then, the only other conclusion I can think of is you're wrong.
Re: Running out of EV customers? (Score:5, Informative)
My goodness. If a house was built with 100A service because it was assumed heating, hot water, and the clothes dryer would be gas fired, then no, you can't switch it over to all electrical appliances without doing a full electrical system upgrade.
And if a the electrical service to a neighborhood was sized assuming that heating loads would be borne by gas or oil, then electrifying the neighborhood entails ripping out and replacing all the transformers, many of the transmission lines, all of the electric meters, plus 5k-10k of electrical work (by a licensed electrician) in each building.
It's fantasy to think redoing all the utilities (that took many decades to build out) can be done in a few years, at scale, all at once.
Why? Because shit doesn't materialize out of thin air when a law is passed. Work has to be done by trained people using expensive equipment. And that doesn't materialize into existence all at once either.
In general I find "vision" legislation to be a sign of unserious people who have no appreciation for whether their vision can do anything beyond making them feel good about themselves. That is to say, the sort of people who absolutely have no business being in a position anywhere near government that allows them to fuck up people's lives.
Re: (Score:3)
> My goodness. If a house was built with 100A service because it was assumed heating, hot water, and the clothes dryer would be gas fired, then no, you can't switch it over to all electrical appliances without doing a full electrical system upgrade.
You seem awfully sure about that.
My home is all electric except for the oil fired boiler which also provides domestic hot water (Which I'm keen to replace with a heat pump home heat+ heat pump water heater). I also have an electric car. For full disclosure I d
Re: Running out of EV customers? (Score:2)
What about your oven and cooktop? That's another 40-80 amps, depending on how big your oven and cooktop are. Also add another 15A or so for your dishwasher's dry cycle .
For full disclosure I do have a 200A service in this house, but is it really needed?
I believe NEC says you have to have enough to run all the appliances at once. That's cooktop, oven, fridge, dryer, dishwasher, boiler, HVAC compressor.
I live in an all-electric house and I have two 200A feeds. I think that was done because my house originally had 90A allocated to resistive heating before heat and hot water were switched to o
Re: Running out of EV customers? (Score:3)
I live in a mansion with 2 EV chargers, 2 central AC units, induction cooktop, electric double oven, electric sauna, electric hot tub.
I monitor the power demand in Home Assistant using my Rainforest Eagle 3. The highest peak I have ever seen is about 24,000 W, which is exactly 100 amps. I do have 200 amp service.
Of course, with all those loads, it's possible to exceed the 200 amp rating of the main panel. I would have to intentionally try to do so, however.
It's just not likely that our 2 EVs are charging, a
Re: Running out of EV customers? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Name one.
I think you're confusing "new sales bans" with fleet replacement.
Re: (Score:3)
Either (A) you don't drive much, (B) you didn't price residual value into the picture, or (C) you picked an unusually expensive EV compared to an unusually cheap ICE.
The cost of insuring EVs is similar to ICE vehicles of the same purchase price [moneygeek.com]
You're told nonsense.
The sort of accident it would take to penetr
Re: (Score:3)
In line with what you're saying... when I do buy an EV, I will definitely also be tacking on the additional cost of a home charger. For me, part of the incentive to get an EV is the convenience of being able to charge at home... especially when comparing the relatively inconvenient "refueling time" disadvantage of EVs versus ICE vehicles.
We do have a new charging station about a mile and a half from my house... but coordinating necessary charging time with grocery trips or whatever would be annoying (not th
Re: (Score:2)
For me, part of the incentive to get an EV is the convenience of being able to charge at home... especially when comparing the relatively inconvenient "refueling time" disadvantage of EVs versus ICE vehicles.
That's basically it. People have become so accustomed to having to stop at a gas station for 5 minutes every week that they don't realize how much cumulative time they actually spend dealing with getting gas.
Re:Running out of EV customers? (Score:4, Informative)
That's another way of describing the same issue. As of 2020, the average privately owned commuter vehicle in America aged out at 12 years old (~144,000 miles). Today's newest import ICE sedans can EASILY make it to 200,000 miles with regular maintenance. Hybrids will last longer.
"aged out" implies that that was when they were replaced. No, the average vehicle registered to drive in the USA is 12.6 years. [caranddriver.com] That means that roughly half of them have to be older than that.
Lifespan of light vehicles in the USA is probably closer to 25 years. Which means that even if all new ones sold starting tomorrow were EV, it'd still take over a decade to reach 50% of the actual fleet.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I am currently looking into buying a used EV for around town and my daily commute (which isn't that long). Maybe a 2015 Leaf or something equivalent.
If I were looking for more distance or a decade of ownership, I would be looking at ICE, not EV. The premium for a battery that will get you a decent distance is still far too large, and the charging options are still insufficient for just hopping in your car and turning the key for a long trip.
Re: Running out of EV customers? (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Most EVs get 300-400 miles on the highway.
Which EVs get 300-400 miles of range driving at freeway speeds? I doubt it's "most". For that matter can you name one EV that gets 400 miles of range driving at 70 miles per hour?
I am a big fan of EVs and I drive one, but let's be honest and realistic.
Re: (Score:2)
My additional complaint with that post would be the bit about nobody liking long drives. - I've done 1400 km in a day and while I wouldn't do that every day forever, it didn't bother me at all - I enjoyed it. That's about 870 miles (and in my car at the time, 2.5 tanks of gas) and if my destination has been a bit further away I wouldn't have had an issue continuing.
If I had to select my stops based on rapid charger availability, I probably wouldn't have been able to cover that much distance in a single day
Re: (Score:2)
There are more people who like to "do 1000 miles in a day" than there are EVs that "get 300-400 miles on the highway".
Re: (Score:2)
EV enthusiasts have an unfortunate habit of telling other people how they should conduct their long-distance travel to the smallest detail. And ignoring objections that what works for one may not work for another as wrongheaded and clearly the product of inferior thinking.
It's probably that those people effectively demand said "smallest details" by arrogantly saying that their X travel plans "cannot possibly be done in an EV". When the EV proponent disagrees, they demand more and more detail. Often revealing that they must be leaving trucker bombs all over the place, eating like slobs, because they never stop except to refuel.
Re: (Score:3)
"EV enthusiasts have an unfortunate habit of telling other people how they should ..."
No they don't, it's you that has a habit of misrepresenting what other people say to suit your narrative.
"In any EV on the market I could buy for under 60k (my ICE SUV was 47k a few years back), that would have been two, likely three, one-hour stops and an extra 2 or 3 hours on an already long trip."
That is utter BS, not that you would know or care. Making up facts is your specialty.
The trip you are citing is 600 miles.
Re: (Score:2)
So the point is that the EV trip is longer. Glad we agree.
If you can't sell your idea without resorting to insults and/or coercion, you can't sell your idea.
The actual point is that an EV trip is longer by about 1 hour (assuming basic safety breaks adding up to about 1 hour in the ICE drive). Assuming that you take 15 minutes to refuel your ICE twice a week (5 minute drive there and back + 5 minute filling) and can avoid that by charging at home, that means that you have to take a long distance trip every two weeks to be losing time on using an EV.
So, if you drive long distance (more than 500 miles) twice a week or more, definitely get a hybrid or other ICE veh
Re: Running out of EV customers? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Last time I made a drive like that, from Pittsburgh to Boston, I stopped once to get a coffee, once for a quick bite, and twice to fill up, each stop except lunch being under 15 minutes. Lunch was closer to 30. In any EV on the market I could buy for under 60k (my ICE SUV was 47k a few years back), that would have been two, likely three, one-hour stops and an extra 2 or 3 hours on an already long trip.
You're not far off. ABRP says that making that trip in my Chevy Bolt (using the city centers as the start and end points for lack of an exact address) would require three charging stops, adding an additional 2 hours and 6 minutes to the total travel time. Catch is though, even without the charging (or refueling as the case would be in an ICEV) stops that's a miserably long nine and a half hour drive. We're talking firmly into the realm where it'd be far quicker to take a flight. That being said, it's wo
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe a 2015 Leaf or something equivalent.
Used older Leafs are cheap because the battery degradation on them has been quite significant. In the USA at least, a used Chevy Bolt is a much better buy and some of them even have brand new batteries (with a new warranty on the battery, as well) due to the recall. The only real caveat to watch out for is that DCFC was originally optional on the earlier model years, so check for the presence of the CCS socket on the vehicle before buying.
Re: (Score:2)
Leaf still has passively air cooled batteries. Used Leafs are dirt cheap because of it. Battery degradation on them is hilarious compared to liquid cooled EVs. Especially the older ones, where they didn't massively overspec the battery to account for degradation. Latter models install much bigger batteries, and let you use a much smaller percentage of it (overprovisioning) so degradation is invisible for a few years.
And then it goes off the same cliff that other Leafs experience.
Re:Running out of EV customers? (Score:5, Informative)
>"I suspect that everyone who can afford an EV and doesn't have some irrational dislike of them (or perhaps a legitimate reason they can't use one) already owns one. "
That might explain a lot of it, but certainly not all. And with this list I am not pointing at just Ford, but the whole industry....
1) Many of us want a regular CAR, not an SUV, not a truck, not a van, not a crossover, not some mini thing either. Slim pickings
2) Many of us want something traditional looking and attractive. Not stupid-looking, angular, huge grill, super-strange lighting, and/or otherwise ugly.
3) Many of us want something with a real dashboard in front of the driver and real physical controls or everything important. We don't want a digital-only speed number, a huge TV-on-a-stick protruding from the center of the vehicle.
4) Some of us want options for lower price with LESS range and weight (smaller battery). But not at the cost of performance. Having a choice of performance AND range options would be very helpful.
5) Some of us are waiting for newer/safer battery formulations (which is coming, thankfully).
6) Many, many others are interested but have no realistic way to charge at home and don't want to be tied to going somewhere else to charge. I am not one of them, but I certainly understand that issue.
7) Many are waiting for price parity.
8) Many just aren't in the market to replace their cars yet. My luxury sport sedan, for example, is 15 years old and working perfectly. Although I am open to replacing it, nothing compelling has presented itself yet, so I am happy to wait.
9) Others, like myself, are partial to Japanese-made car design. Again, zero to almost zero EV car options there.
10) And finally, many want to go through a local dealer and will not do the "mailorder" type thing, or single-point 100+ miles away thing that some brands are using. They want to easily see it, test drive it, and know there is local service, support, and parts availability.
Re:Running out of EV customers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Running out of customers period.
The average age of a car on the road is at the highest it has ever been since keeping records. Average hit 12 years old in the United States. [spglobal.com] That means there's people keeping them longer and there are some that are newer than 12 years, but average car that you run into on the streets wasn't even produced this decade.
People are just not buying cars. The US population's income has steadily gone down and there's economic ramifications if just a select number of people in the United States are absorbing the majority of the new wealth created. Restaurants are dying, motorcycles are dying, new cars are dying, and this is just going to keep going for as long as the United States keeps underpaying their citizens. I mean it's pretty simple logic here. If customers have no money to buy at your business, your business isn't going to last very long.
It is clear that there's very little interest in actually helping the United States economy from lawmakers. When companies are posting multi-billion dollar profits and buy back options, and consumer good purchases are shrinking, someone is getting all the new made wealth and someone isn't. This story is just another to add to the pile of Reaganomics distinctly NOT working.
I mean look at your comment.
The average new car buyer now has an income of around $80k
The number of people in that bracket, the number of people who are "your average new car buyer", that number has deceased over the years. There are now fewer absolute number of people in the new car market. Be it an EV or not. And you see markets trying to claw people into that market via insane methods like 84-month and 96-month car loan terms [nerdwallet.com]. They're literally creating ticking time bombs just to keep the absolute number of people in the new car market artificially up.
None of this stuff is happening in isolation, people just DO NOT HAVE MONEY. It is this simple. When nobody has money, nobody buys shit. The end. Thank you all for coming to my TED Talk. All of this is the creation of a few people who just absolutely do not want one cent of their horde of gold to slip through their fingers.
Re: (Score:3)
> EVs are more expensive than average.
Not if you lease. A bz4x is cheaper to lease than a RAV4. An electric F-150 is cheaper to lease than a similar spec'd gas F-150. Hyundai, Nissan, similar.
Re: (Score:2)
Hardly. More likely everyone who can afford and EV and doesn't have some irrational dislike of them, may not actually like what Ford has on offer. I don't understand their products at all. There are plenty of companies in the EV space not posting billion dollar losses.
Re: (Score:2)
Right, because replacing a vehicle only applies to ICE. When you buy an EV, it is forever.
Re: (Score:2)
Can you explain why Tesla is generally is in top 3 (and often on top) in time spent being repaired while under warranty if that is the case?
Re:Running out of EV customers? (Score:5, Interesting)
You could fix this by allowing China's BYD to sell it's Seagull car in the US. The Seagull sells for $10,000 to $12,000 in China. Plans for a version that would meet EU standards will cost $21,500 after tariffs.
This is not a bad little car; in evact US engineers who got their hands one one and tore it down characterized it as a potential "extinction level event" for US EV car manufacturing if allowed into the country.
Re: (Score:2)
I am still looking for my perfect EV.
It must:
*Tow 6,000 lbs
*Have a range of 500 miles
*Must recharge in under 10 minutes
I want a truck I can take on vacation. I want to camp with it - drag a trailer into the bush and relax.
There does not yet exist a vehicle that can do that. If I am on vacation, i don't want to plan it around EV chargers.
This means the a PHEV is the only option for me if I'm going to drive electric. The new Dodge RamCharger coming in 2025 is the first one that checks my boxes. Maybe I'll
Re: (Score:2)
It's the trailer part that's the killer. It's Newtonian physics, no free ride. More mass (metric, please), more power to go. Aerodynamics doesn't help. If you need to pull a trailer, you're going to need the energy density of chemical. Believe me, I'd love a Ford Lightning, except it doesn't do anything I need it to do, just what the marketing droids say it will.
As a consumer, I don't demand as much efficiency on the road; however, I (like you) do want more than is currently possible. For me, that's:
Re: (Score:2)
False, it was 29%. And they were not "planning on making their next vehicle an IC", but merely "likely to switch back".
Here's a link that is not paywalled: https://www.teslarati.com/mcki... [teslarati.com]
Also, 29% switching back is a VASTLY smaller number than 38% of non-EV drivers considering switching to an EV, also a result of the same survey. So NOOOOO! not running out of EV customers.
Re: (Score:2)
This is, by far, the biggest problem with EV adoption and it is getting worse.
While EV owners are consumed with their own entitlement to profit off of their V2G and 100 amp charging connections, young people cannot afford homes and increasingly cannot afford new cars either. While the rich concern themselves with minor impositions on their lifestyle, the rest are faced with no lifestyle at all.
Tesla's view of millionaires charging their Plaids in private garages doesn't translate to apartment dwellers, alr
Not due to EV (Score:4, Insightful)
But due to incapable management. China can do it. Why not Ford?
Re:Not due to EV (Score:5, Insightful)
But due to incapable management. China can do it. Why not Ford?
Because Ford has only limited access to slave labor.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullshit.
Re: (Score:2)
NHK (Japan's equivalent of the BBC) visited recently and their report is pretty accurate.
https://youtu.be/aOuAb2gXC3M [youtu.be]
There has been a cultural genocide, and dissent is oppressed. It's far from a giant work camp producing cheap EVs though.
We need to stop making excuses and step up.
Re: (Score:3)
We need to stop making excuses and step up.
That would be a good idea. But making excuses is so much easier. Excuses mean you do not have to look at what you may be doing wrong and where you would need to fix your act. Of course, long-term that is disastrous as a strategy, but short-term it is warm and cozy.
Re: (Score:3)
Because Ford has only limited access to slave labor.
No they don't. They have the same access as Chinese companies, which is to say just like Tesla they too could open a factory in China.
Re: (Score:3)
Tesla's Chinese factory is for the Chinese market.
You should tell that to Telsa that. The same Tesla that just had EU inspectors certify their Chinese factory supply chain in an attempt to reduce the 20% tariffs they are paying. Currently all Model 3 in Europe come from China. Tesla's EU factory only produce Model Ys.
Re: (Score:2)
They don't have legions of slaves making cars. All you are doing is helping us fall further behind by not learning the lessons.
Instead of developing fossil tech, they went for EVs early. While everyone else was still tweaking combustion engines and hybrid tech, they just started making huge, reliable, cheap batteries, in massive quantities. The best tech, also the cheapest tech, and the drivetrains to match.
In China EVs are affordable because they got battery prices down, and the rest of the car is simpler
Re: (Score:3)
I mean if we are also politically willing to subsidize the entire EV supply chain as China does with it's industrial sectors then sure, fair comparison.
Foul Play? On the Scale and Scope of Industrial Subsidies in China [ifw-kiel.de]
Politically and thus economically the countries operate quite differently. I would agree that we could adapt a thing or two from how China does things, particularly their use of large public infrastructure spending to develop industries.
Re: (Score:3)
But due to incapable management. China can do it. Why not Ford?
Because American workers want a live-able wage ?
Just sayin' that cuz it seems to a common thred in labor news lately.
Re: (Score:3)
Wages are a small fraction of the cost. The main reason is that Chinese batteries are reliable and cheap due to production on scales that dwarf the rest of the world combined.
The same story as wind turbines and solar panels.
Because everything is an SUV (Score:2)
When we went all in on SUVs and big honkin trucks and cars we made cheap EVs basically impossible. We would have to radically change our entire fleet and consumers just don't want to do that.
Honestly I have no idea what's going to happen
Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)
So because assholes want dangerous vehicles they do not need? Yes, makes a ton of sense.
As to the future of the US economy and society? Simple. It does not have one long-term. Too much greed, arrogance and stupidity and no long-term planning.
Re: (Score:3)
They used to buy smaller vehicles, and then the EPA decided to recalculate things so that vehicle footprint in vehicle class mattered. At which point except for in the luxury vehicle class roomy sedans for the family and small trucks were de facto outlawed.
Re: (Score:2)
So not the buyer at fault? Is that what you are saying? Because I do not see it. At all. This is 100% on the buyer.
Re: Because everything is an SUV (Score:5, Interesting)
This all started with safety requirements. Hear me out.
There are two different types of safety. Stuff that protects you (internal). And stuff that is mostly meant to protect other people (external).
Normally it is expected that since these things cost money, you pay for your own safety and other people pay for theirs. If rich people want 20 airbags cool. If a poor person wants to work and can only afford one airbag, good for them. They choose their own internal safety.
The problem came with poor people hitting rich people and rich people complaining that the poor person didnt extravagantly spend on extra external safety which would mostly only benefit others in a wreck.
Their thinking was since they can afford all this stuff, it would be better for poor people to simply be forced into extravagant external safety spending or not drive at all with the privileged rich.
So now as predicted the poor who really can barely afford a single vehicle have to buy lane warning systems, big lcd screens pimp my ride style with big backup cameras, sonic sensors for backing up, cameras to automatically brake, and in case the rich ride with a poor person, the cars must be huge and have 20 airbags.
If the poor cant afford it, well fuck em. That has been the policy of the usa the last 15 years if not more.
Re: (Score:2)
Honestly I have no idea what's going to happen because cars are rapidly becoming unaffordable and our entire civilization is built on them. We are either going to have to start paying people a fuck of a lot more money or we're going to start having to stop using cars and switch to public transit or we're just going to have a massive number of people who are completely unemployable and that never ends well for any country that tries it
My partner and I were downtown to see a concert recently and we saw loads of people zipping around on Bird scooters (and we also witnessed one rider eat shit going off a curb). My guess is that we're heading right for a "you'll own nothing and be happy" future, with cars as a service for those who can't afford private vehicle ownership, and tiny dangerous e-scooters for people who can't even afford that.
Re:Not due to EV (Score:4, Interesting)
Ford should probably partner with BYD, a car company who's actually succeeding at making affordable long range EV's.
It wouldn't be the first time Ford has partnered with an Asian auto manufacturer to produce the lower cost vehicles in their lineup. The Ford Fiesta used to be made by Kia, for example.
They must really be counting on the mandates (Score:2)
Because then they'll won't have to sell EVs at a loss.
Too bad the mandates are already being pushed back and watered down to allow hybrids to count.
You know, about 20 years ago, the big 3 were all selling small sedans and compacts at a loss to meet their cafe quotas too. Then 2 out of 3 of them needed taxpayer bailouts. I guess they're assuming they'll be bailed out again too.
Jim Farley (Score:2)
Seems like he's a better comedian than his cousin Chris. They keep missing the importance of FSD.
Re: (Score:2)
Seems like he's a better comedian than his cousin Chris.
That's been a pretty low bar for two decades or so...
Why money loser? (Score:2)
I thought EVs are pretty simple to construct. At least more so than ICEs or hybrids. Why are they losing so much money on them? Specifically where are the costs coming from?
Re: (Score:2)
It's an entirely different supply chain and assembly process, and a new technology that needs to be developed. Manufacturers need to re-invent a substantial portion of their operations, even Ford who made the very sane decision to use almost everything of their existing F-150 body had to recreate a whole new chassis underneath for the Lightning.
If you were around and paying attention in about 2010, people were saying the same things about Tesla. It would take a fill decade for them to turn a profit and peop
Re: (Score:2)
"Not being actively kept cool creates heat (our planet's surface isn't zero degrees kelvin, anything above 0K means the battery is aging."
You think anyone takes you seriously with a moronic comment like that? Even your mother is ashamed of that comment.
Re: (Score:2)
(Oh, sorry 'bout the hyperbole - but some people just don't understand anything else. People such as yourself, for example)
Ford is a private Company. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You are ignorant (in the literal meaning of the word) regarding publicly-held companies and who owns them.
Ford is a private Company. You must own stock. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
In my humble opinion, keep your opinions to yourselves about Ford.
I hold a few shares of Ford.
Sales based on customer experience (Score:5, Informative)
If Ford is blaming their stock value on "the EV market", their blame is grossly misplaced and they need a bigger mirror.
30-40k segment? (Score:5, Interesting)
IIRC, something like 90% of Ford’s profits come from the F150 alone. Ford’s future rests on the success of the Lightning, or whatever second-gen EV pickup they develop. They might have enough time to develop a 3rd-gen version before the make-or-break point. But if that fails, they’re history.
Re: (Score:2)
I think they'll discover what consumers have. (Score:2)
Re: I think they'll discover what consumers have. (Score:2)
Sorry but the person with the slide rule probably hot rods their own shit at home and cant give you the cool settings due to bureaucracy and bean counters.
I always hate people spewing the whole âoeif engineers thought that change would benefit the car the would have done it at the factoryâ.
No grandpa, the engineers at Ford cant even get a freaking desk until some dude in another division passes his âoework orderâ through five levels of approval before a union electrician can be sent out
Re: (Score:2)
Ford's BlueOval City complex is pretty much centered around their next gen EV truck platform so agree it's a bit premature to call anything a failure or success just yet.
The car market is shifting and changing in some manner right now, that seems undeniable even in the gas car market. EVs however are the future of the car market because the idea of digging up goo and exploding it to move people around is done and dying, the family is just waitng for the call and the orderlies are stealing it's valuables.
Re: (Score:2)
IIRC, something like 90% of Ford’s profits come from the F150 alone.
And their revenue is half that of the next larger car company.
It may surprise you to realise that a company with a $45bn market cap can actually work on multiple products at once. Toyota isn't beating ford because the Hilux is better than the F150, they are beating Ford because they have a highly diverse portfolio appealing in multiple market segments from the cheap econobox to the fancy pickup, all while pushing hydrogen research, being first to market with hybrids, oh and they make robots, sewing machines
Re: (Score:2)
US auto manufacturers abandoned the cheap-car and small-car markets decades ago.
Not quite. They got regulated out of offering small cars at a price point that would be supported by US consumers. For example, did you know why trucks and SUVs exploded in size? Emission regulations.
Re: (Score:2)
Frying pan or fire (Score:5, Insightful)
Ford & GM are screwed. It seems inevitable that the world will eventually switch to mostly EV's. And it seems inevitable that the US will be the last place to transition. Ford & GM make most of their profits in the States. If they transition late, they'll be screwed because everybody else will have more experience and thus better models. If they transition early they'll lose tons of money because the US is still mostly buying ICE while the rest of the world is mostly EV and they won't have good penetration into either market.
Re: (Score:3)
The key is getting a supply chain that will deliver battery packs cheaply enough so that they can sell at prices comparable to similar ICE vehicles. The battery typically represents about 40% of the manufacturing costs of a new EV, and there aren't many other places where you can cut corners, which is why practically the sole remaining affordable EV -- the Nissan Leaf -- comes base with a modest 40 kWh battery that delivers just 150 miles of range.
GM had a market winner with the Chevy Bolt, a popular car
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sure it will cost "less than 30k" the same way the bolt cost less than $30k. With the dealers all marking them up $5-8k over MSRP. I am in a major metro area and I waited for 2 years to try to buy one at MSRP and couldn't find anything until after they abandoned the platform and everyone decided to wait for a Equinox (which surprise surprise they raised the MSRP price $8k over original announcement).
Re: (Score:2)
Buy and older used one that's had the battery replaced under warranty. I just spent 16,500 for a 2017 which had the battery replaced warranty a few weeks before I purchased it. On top of that I got $4000 in federal and $3500 in state tax credits. So I got an EV with an 8 year/100k mile warranty for just 9k.
Dealerships hate EVs (Score:5, Interesting)
Lecce moped (Score:3)
Perhaps... (Score:3)
Unattractive Environment (Score:4, Insightful)
I just drove to an assembly, drove from there to a poker room, and then drove home. This was a distance of about 130 miles. Nowhere on the journey did I see a gasoline-like sign for "EV Charging" with a price per KwH elevated to a height for all to see. 30 miles of my trip was an interstate highway, yet it had no sign that, in addition to "Fuel", "Lodging", and "Food", said "Charging."
What is the general public, uninterested in the EV world, to think? It may be great for someone already tuned to EV's and how to find charging, but for the general public, how are they to imagine that they would have an easy time when needing to charge an EV if they bought one? It is like Dr. Strangelove's analysis that a doomsday machine is useless if you don't tell anyone about it. But inherently, possibly due to the cost of such advertising of availability and price, potential EV buyers are not being told that there even is EV charging anywhere close unless they get on the internet and look for it. Without advertising to inform them, they may maintain an attitude that EV's and their charging infrastructure have not arrived in their area.
I think someone may have to spend a couple nickels and advertise to the apathetic. I think that might boost growth in a surprise to all involved.
Re: (Score:3)
Yeah, sure, but that wasn't the point. The point was Mom and Pop, motoring to church or whatever, driving for miles, passing gas station after gas station, and no visible evidence of a charging station anywhere. The point is the invisibility of the charging network to casual motorists who aren't even thinking about EV's yet.
I think if they went down the road and saw signed directing you to charging points, those with ICE cars, when considering their next car, would be more inclined to think of EV's.
It's not an incandescent light bulb (Score:2)
You simply can't force people to make an expensive, financial picture altering purchase. People swallowed the CFL mandate reluctantly because they had no choice and shortly after, the LED kicked the CFLs ass in lots of ways. Plus, the LED bulb was cheaper to operate, lasted a lot longer, and now gives you lots of color choices. An EV isn't a no-brainer. People get pissed when they find out that their freedom of movement has been curtailed and they're taking it in the shorts financially. Fundamentally,
Re: Ford engines garbage since 2010 (Score:2)
Whats silly is only american cars delete the cam phasers on big power builds. Where as cars like the Evolution X with dohc phasers in 2008 was taken to like 2500hp from a 2.0 and no one ever deleted them on the platform.
Yet the 2005 Mustang GT introduced phasers and the first mods the American guys had to do was delete them haha.
Re: (Score:2)
So you think modders who only care about the drag strip are the epitome of automotive engineering? Who are these "American guys" that you speak of and why do they matter?
It's a crying shame that Ford ruined the engines of SIXTY years ago with VVT. What were they thinking? 12 mpg is good enough for anybody.
Re: (Score:2)
"Maybe if Ford could build an engine that didn't self destruct at 50,000 miles, I'd consider one again."
2019 Ford Edge ST, 169,000+ miles, runs like a top. No problems beyond a stuck emissions system valve needing replacement 2 years ago.