Nissan Is the Next Automaker To Adopt Tesla-Style EV Charging Plugs (arstechnica.com) 71
Today, Nissan announced it's adopting Tesla's North American Charging Standard (NACS) in its electric vehicles, following in the footsteps of Ford, GM, Rivian, Mercedes-Benz, Volvo, and Polestar. Ars Technica reports: "Adopting the NACS standard underlines Nissan's commitment to making electric mobility even more accessible as we follow our Ambition 2030 long-term vision of greater electrification," said Jeremie Papin, chairperson of Nissan Americas. "We are happy to provide access to thousands more fast chargers for Nissan EV drivers, adding confidence and convenience when planning long-distance journeys."
This is actually Nissan's second time changing its DC fast-charging plugs. An early pioneer of EVs with the first- and then second-generation Leaf, it chose the CHAdeMO standard for those models, which is popular in Japan but never really caught on elsewhere. But when Nissan built the Ariya crossover as its third-generation EV, it dropped CHAdeMO for CCS, which appeared like it was going to win the charging standard war by dint of having every OEM onboard other than Tesla. CCS may have had the power of numbers in terms of OEMs, but EVs from all those makes are still heavily outnumbered on the road by the sheer mass of Models 3 and Y, and it's hard to argue with the superiority of Tesla's Supercharger network, either in terms of reliability or number of deployed chargers.
This is actually Nissan's second time changing its DC fast-charging plugs. An early pioneer of EVs with the first- and then second-generation Leaf, it chose the CHAdeMO standard for those models, which is popular in Japan but never really caught on elsewhere. But when Nissan built the Ariya crossover as its third-generation EV, it dropped CHAdeMO for CCS, which appeared like it was going to win the charging standard war by dint of having every OEM onboard other than Tesla. CCS may have had the power of numbers in terms of OEMs, but EVs from all those makes are still heavily outnumbered on the road by the sheer mass of Models 3 and Y, and it's hard to argue with the superiority of Tesla's Supercharger network, either in terms of reliability or number of deployed chargers.
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:lmfao:
Just North America (Score:2)
The rest of the world uses other standards. It would have been good if a single open standard had been adopted.
Most of the worlds vehicles are outside the US.
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Many, many drawbacks make it practically impossible to use on an EV.
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What's wrong with just using the good old three prong plug?
Three? That neutral prong is a fake foisted by the libs. We should go back to old fashioned two prong plugs without polarization. If it was good enough for Grandpa Joe, it's good enough for me.
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Three? That neutral prong is a fake foisted by the libs. We should go back to old fashioned two prong plugs without polarization. If it was good enough for Grandpa Joe, it's good enough for me.
Good news for you then: the Telsa/NACS charger doesn't have a neutral, on neither the charging connector side (what plugs in to the car), nor the wall charger side (what plugs in to your wall -- in this case likely to a NEMA 6-50 receptacle).
Musk stands with Grandpa Joe on this.
*NACS and CCS have grounding pins though, anathema to grandpa, which may be what you meant when you said neutral. Neither you nor Joe really want to fuck around with up to 250kW of juice without a ground.
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The rest of the world uses other standards. It would have been good if a single open standard had been adopted.
Most of the worlds vehicles are outside the US.
Agreed.
I can understand there's historic reasons why different countries use different plugs, why some countries drive left vs right, etc, etc.
But EVs are just now going mainstream, can't we have a single standard for once?
Re:Just North America (Score:5, Informative)
The main reason is Europe commonly has 3 phase AC service even to residential areas, with lower current per phase than North America delivers over a single split phase. To fully utilize what's available for AC charging in Europe, you need 3 AC pins on the charge port, where North America only needs 2 for the high and low side of the one phase.
Europe never used J1772 because they needed 3 pins, in NA when J1772 came out DC charging wasn't yet a thing and when it did start gaining ground, the high voltage pins were undersized for the currents DC fast charging provides without room to make them larger and stay compatible, so both CCS and CHAdeMO utilize a completely separate set of DC pins. NACS was designed with DC fast charging in mind, the high voltage pins are physically bigger and the car can use one set for both AC and DC charging, with a set of contactors inside the car to route it to the right onboard charger module. NACS is less useful in other markets because it doesn't provide the third AC pin, there's no point in every car sold in the US taking on the added expense of supporting 3 phase AC charging when 99.999% of them would never use it, and cars in markets where 3 phase are common need it to support efficient AC charging.
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The main reason is Europe commonly has 3 phase AC service even to residential areas, with lower current per phase than North America delivers over a single split phase. To fully utilize what's available for AC charging in Europe, you need 3 AC pins on the charge port, where North America only needs 2 for the high and low side of the one phase.
WHich is a very foolish argument for why go CCS. Fact is, that 10-14 KW is plenty fast for a home charger. Your 22 kw is a bit faster and NICE for those few EVs that can not use a DC charger. But otherwise, that argument is absolutely worthless.
And as to the rest of the world, most do not have 3 phase going to their homes. In fact, I would guess that for many places, it will be DC charging that will become the norm. As such, NACS has higher power and in a superior HW, combined with superior software contr
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>> DC charging that will become the norm.
Nope. At home, and on slow city chargers for the night, it is definitely AC. (same for upcoming V2G)
DC is practical and economic only for high power fast charger on the side of the highway, which, in number of plugs, is the small minority.
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WHich is a very foolish argument for why go CCS. Fact is, that 10-14 KW is plenty fast for a home charger. Your 22 kw is a bit faster and NICE for those few EVs that can not use a DC charger
CCS actually goes to 43kW.
And as to the rest of the world, most do not have 3 phase going to their homes
Much of the world does have 3 phase going to commercial premises.
As such, NACS has higher power
It does not.
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Up to 22 kW for private charging Up to 43 kW for public charging [evbox.com]
IOW, for home/small businesses, 22 kw. Public Charging is mostly DC fast.
CCS can handle 500 KW, though it was just upgraded to that and there are lots of IFF with it. Instead, 350 KW is the safe max with it
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Nearly ALL nations, including America has 3 phase going to businesses.
Yeah. There's a weird hyperfocus on residential users here who don't need faster charging on the whole anyway.
CCS can handle 500 KW, though it was just upgraded to that and there are lots of IFF with it. Instead, 350 KW is the safe max with it.
NACS can handle 1MW. Safely.
I don't know where you get your numbers from because there are 400kW CCS charging stations actually out there in the wild and there's no evidence they are unsafe. Meanwhi
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CCS can handle 500 KW
The latest revision of the CCS [wikipedia.org] plug standard supports up to 1,500 volts and 800 amps for DC charging [wikipedia.org], which is a maximum of 1.2 megawatts.
NACS can handle 1MW
I'd like to see a charger with a NACS plug delivering 1MW today. Show me one.
If it helps, here's a charger with CCS type 2 combo plugs [willbert.tech] that can deliver 720 kW [willbert.tech].
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You get 7.2 kW at best (230 V * 32 A) using just one phase. Usually half of that because 16 A is far more typical for residential areas. Hence three phases, which also helps with load balancing, same as electric stoves.
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The DC contacts on NACS are too small for very high power charging. CCS2 has larger ones to support higher power charging, up to 750kW (deploying in Belgium right now) and demonstrated at over 1MW.
It's not clear how important that is. There is a separate standard for ultra high power chargers for commercial vehicles. While charging at 750kW+ sounds nice, most consumer cars probably won't bother with it due to cost.
But from a marketing point of view it may be helpful, particularly in the US where many people
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The european plug would not be so bad if they would just use the AC pins for DC as well (like the old european Model S plugs did). But for some reason they decided to go with this ridiculously large double plug with separate parts for AC and DC, it's a total abomination.
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>> it's a total abomination.
Yeah, but it's a working and unified standard.
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And it could have worked just as well with just the top part for AC and DC. Tesla proposed this and implemented it in Model S, it worked great and everybody could adopt it, but nooooo... not invented here, too convenient. So Tesla had to outfit Model 3 with those horrendous double plugs.
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Before that, the US should reform it's electric grid to generalize 230V.
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Uh... But we have? US power is "split phase" - IE 230/240VAC into the home. You use 2 hots, you get 240V, such as for ovens, air conditioners, and water heaters. For regular outlets, you have 2 sides that are in series with each other, with a neutral tap in the center.
IE:
H - N - H
H - N - H
H - N - H
If you remember the basic electrical stuff, if you have, say, a 100 ohm load in series with another 100 ohm load, they each see half the voltage. While it's unlikely that both phases match up exactly, the con
US grid supplies 240V to the home (Score:2)
How do you think we can plug in our 240V stoves, dryers, water heaters, central AC units, and EV chargers?
This YouTube video [youtube.com] goes into how we use a 3 wire split phase connection to the grid to get 120V out of that 240V feed.
The reason we do that is historical. Power plants prior to 1900 supplied 110 volts due to early light bulbs, which would rapidly burn out at higher voltages. We eventually had a large base of equipment using 110 volts. When the grid started supplying 240v, presumably to support newer d
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Most homes in the US are served by electricity carried on one hot line. I worked at a produce packing plant that was serviced by two hot lines. Special transformers were used to create three phase power. A half a mile from my semi rural home the local water service put in a well field. The electric utility doubled the number of power poles and hung three large dynamiter wires to run true three phase power to the pumps.
I am in Florida, I imagine if we lose power those lines will be repaired first.
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That is not the point.
Split phase 120/240 uses much much more copper than 230/400V wiring, and, as a consequence, needs many more smaller transformers with smaller wire runs on the LV side, thus forbids to use the necessary bigger 3-phase transformers -> no 3-phase joy for homes possible in USA as long as 120V is in use.
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5 pins actually - three phases, neutral and protective earth.
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That's not the American way, dammit! You look at what everyone else on the planet is doing and then you do something completely different just because you can, anything else would be un-American!
No, that's the French way. When it comes to the US the usual tactic is to explicitly ban things like moving headlights in order to give US car makers a domestic advantage. I say domestic because the US doesn't actually export many cars... because the ones they make are mostly shit.
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Fascinating. Thanks.
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That's a great idea. However, the standard with the most international support these days is CCS2 - used in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, South East Asia, Australia/New Zealand, and most of South America.
So all you need to do is convince the other half a dozen or so countries to change. That includes the United States, China and Japan - each of which not only uses a different connector to the rest of the world, but also to each other.
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However, the standard with the most international support these days is CCS2 - used in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, South East Asia, Australia/New Zealand, and most of South America.
Outside of Europe, which nations REQUIRE CCS2? none. CCS2 is simply going into places because European LICE makers are pushing a few of their EVs and Tesla has not entered into those markets yet.
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What do you mean? Tesla uses CCS2 in almost every location they operates in. GB/T in China. NACS in five countries. CCS2 in over forty countries (across four continents).
They've used CCS2 in every new market they've entered since 2017. Most of the time CCS2 has only become the standard because Tesla chose to use it.
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Exactly the kind of problem which means we will never have one single world standard.
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The rest of the world uses other standards. It would have been good if a single open standard had been adopted.
Most of the worlds vehicles are outside the US.
And whose flag is on the moon?
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Ah, yes. I remember those days...back before religious fundamentalists took over and turned America into something out of a science fiction dystopia.
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However, you should have completed it and pointed out that the far left is also in this mix working hard to destroy America.
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The far left in the US has very little power. The Christian Taliban, on the other hand, has a remarkable amount of influence, especially considering it's a minority.
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You really don't know? China's flag is on the moon [space.com]
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Re: Just North America (Score:3)
No CCS1 there. (Score:2)
None. There are quite a fev EVs tho.
the LRVs had non-rechargeable silver oxide batteries, no CCS1 there.
All small rovers on the moon are recharged via integrated solar panels, no CCS1 there.
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Megatron's.
Re:Just North America (Score:5, Funny)
The best thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
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From what I have read the communication standard for the chargers is standardized now so they can cross charge with a dongle.
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Here is one article:
https://insideevs.com/news/671... [insideevs.com]
"CharIN is pleased that NACS is using DIN 70121 and ISO 15118 protocols based on power line communication (PLC) enabling CCS functionality. These protocols were created for CCS but are versatile communication standards that could help build bridges across all charging standards in North America. These standards are also deeply rooted in CharIN membership and activities."
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Tesla used to have their own special communication protocol for charging, but dropped it in favour of using the CCS one. Their newer cars use CCS signalling over the NACS connector.
Which is something I guess. At least if the protocol is the same, manufacturers only have to make one charging module and just fit a different connector depending on if the car is destined for a CCS or NACS market. The NACS connector does require extra relays because it has AC and DC on the same pins though. CCS has them on separ
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Yeah since Tesla's have an internal relay/switch so any car getting built with NACS will also have to have that internal relay built in but NACS to CCS adapters will have to have the switch built into the adapter to route the right power to the right pins?
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Interesting point. Most public AC chargers in Europe are just type 2 sockets, you bring your own cable.
Is it different in the US? If not, then a NACS to CCS converter would only need to support DC anyway.
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Most chargers in the US I have seen the cable is attached to the charger, like a petrol spout when you fill up your car.
I don't own an EV so I could be off but every one I've ever seen out in the world or at a persons home works like that.
Considering that automobile import laws in the US are pretty strict I doubt this will anything but a very edge case for a long while and a person who owns such a car in North America would just put a CCS charger in their house and would mainly be concerned with DC out in t
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As to charging standards, since only Europe and China have true charging requirements, all other nations will be free to decide what to install. I would not be surprised to see NACS take the world by storm.
CCS in the US is not the same as CCS in Europe (Score:2)
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Most of the worlds vehicles are outside the US.
Most of the world has a very large sometimes competing set of vehicle standards. A large portion of every car sold is in some fashion customised to a local market. EVERYTHING, from the obvious: Americans flash brakes as turning indicators, or the decades that America had standard headlights or how cars were able to be sold in America without ABS while it was mandated in Europe the decade prior, to the far less obvious: American cars do not need to show the brake lights if an electronic system like regenerat
Does not matter (Score:2)
1 thing I realized about Europe's set up is that I hear from a number of ppl that Europe's connections sux as badly, and then others will say that no they do not. However, it finally dawned on me that Europe's approach
Sorry. (Score:1)
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Yep. don't use adapters.
Not worldwide (Score:1)
Luckily this is just USA and Canada, outside of which Tesla are far from common.
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I'm not sure why you think that anyone reading Slashdot thought that a story about the adoption of the North American Charging Standard had any implications for the rest of the world.
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I'm not sure why youd think they wouldnt...
Meanwhile in the rest of the world.. (Score:2)
Outside the USA/Canada two different connectors are used
There are more EV's in Europe than in the USA - 3 times as many ...
and 56% of the EV's made are made in China who drive nearly 10 times as the whole of the USA
Outside the USA Tesla are not the major player anymore, in China they are a non-entity ...