Toyota Claims Solid-State Battery Has 745 Mile Range, 10 Minute Charging Time (cleantechnica.com) 230
After announcing a new electric car strategy last month, Toyota is now claiming it has made a technological breakthrough that will allow it to cut the weight, size, and cost of batteries in half. The company claims it has developed ways to make a solid-state battery with a range of 1,200 km (745 miles) that could charge in 10 minutes or less and would be simpler to manufacture than a conventional lithium-ion battery. CleanTechnica reports: On July 3, the company said it had simplified the production of the material used to make solid-state batteries and hailed the discovery as a significant leap forward that could dramatically cut charging times and increase driving range. "For both our liquid and our solid-state batteries, we are aiming to drastically change the situation where current batteries are too big, heavy and expensive. In terms of potential, we will aim to halve all of these factors." said Keiji Kaita, president of the Toyota research and development center for carbon neutrality. He added that his company has developed ways to make batteries more durable, and believed it could now make a solid-state battery with a range of 1,200 km (745 miles) that could charge in 10 minutes or less and would be simpler to manufacture than a conventional lithium-ion battery.
CleanTechnica readers, being the well-informed people they are, are aware that the leap from the laboratory to commercial production is often long and difficult. If Toyota has made progress in that area, that is indeed something to be celebrated. But once again, we have to emphasize, that is a big "if." Nevertheless, our readers will want to know some specifics, things like energy density, charge and discharge rates, the number of charging cycles possible, how the batteries perform in cold temperatures, what they are made of -- things like that. They have been trained over many years to be skeptical of announcements such as this one. After all, companies like QuantumScape have been making similar promises for almost a decade, and we are all still waiting for that company to get its batteries into production.
David Bailey, a professor of business economics at the University of Birmingham, told The Guardian that if Toyota's claims are accurate, it could be a landmark moment for the future of electric cars. "Often there are breakthroughs at the prototype stage but then scaling it up is difficult. If it is a genuine breakthrough it could be a game changer -- very much the holy grail of battery vehicles." Congratulations to Bailey for using two of the three most trite phrases about new technology in one sentence. Sharp-eyed readers will notice that even with this solid-state battery news, Toyota still has modest goals for its battery-electric cars. It plans to manufacture 3 million of them a year by 2030 -- half with solid-state batteries.
CleanTechnica readers, being the well-informed people they are, are aware that the leap from the laboratory to commercial production is often long and difficult. If Toyota has made progress in that area, that is indeed something to be celebrated. But once again, we have to emphasize, that is a big "if." Nevertheless, our readers will want to know some specifics, things like energy density, charge and discharge rates, the number of charging cycles possible, how the batteries perform in cold temperatures, what they are made of -- things like that. They have been trained over many years to be skeptical of announcements such as this one. After all, companies like QuantumScape have been making similar promises for almost a decade, and we are all still waiting for that company to get its batteries into production.
David Bailey, a professor of business economics at the University of Birmingham, told The Guardian that if Toyota's claims are accurate, it could be a landmark moment for the future of electric cars. "Often there are breakthroughs at the prototype stage but then scaling it up is difficult. If it is a genuine breakthrough it could be a game changer -- very much the holy grail of battery vehicles." Congratulations to Bailey for using two of the three most trite phrases about new technology in one sentence. Sharp-eyed readers will notice that even with this solid-state battery news, Toyota still has modest goals for its battery-electric cars. It plans to manufacture 3 million of them a year by 2030 -- half with solid-state batteries.
Anyone have the full quote/release? (Score:2)
From the quoted bits, it doesn't seem like they've achieved any such breakthrough.
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The source appears to be the Financial Times in direct communication rather than a public press release. They aren't known for blindly making shit up, but likewise there's been no broad public information released here.
Re:Anyone have the full quote/release? (Score:5, Informative)
https://cleantechnica.com/2023... [cleantechnica.com]
The Guardian article referenced is here:
https://www.theguardian.com/bu... [theguardian.com]
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Operative word: "believes"
Can I trade in my thin film solar cells? (Score:2)
As that promise also never materialize after being endlessly hyped in the media.
CleanTechnica comments skeptical (Score:5, Informative)
One commenter there pointed out you just have to go back over their announcements:
In 2017 Toyota announced a Solid State Battery would be on sale in 2020
In 2020 they said it would be here for 2022
2023 they have same announcement again, this time for 2025.
Re:CleanTechnica comments skeptical (Score:5, Informative)
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Good find.
Though, these are not totally out of line with this announcement. There they said prototype by "next year", which they did unveil, and "sell an electric vehicle equipped with a solid-state battery in the early 2020s". So 2026 doesn't fully qualify as early 20s.
Here's another short summary of the state of things, a year ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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https://twitter.com/KetanJ0/st... [twitter.com]
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They sound like Elon Musk.
The numbers are interesting.
600 mile range, say 130kWh based on 65kWh cars hitting 300 miles. Charge time 10 minutes, let's assume that's the standard 10% to 80% charge, so 91kWh into the battery. Say 10% losses, being optimistic.
That's 546kW rapid charging. Not unreasonable, but there are some caveats. To sustain that speed for even 10 minutes you will need a water cooled cable. CCS2 connector, NACS probably won't cut it. And the battery will need to be pre-conditioned to the righ
"could" (Score:4, Insightful)
and believed it could now make a solid-state battery with a range of 1,200 km (745 miles) that could charge in 10 minutes or less and would be simpler to manufacture than a conventional lithium-ion battery.
and believed it could now make a solid-state battery with a range of 1,200 km (745 miles) that could charge in 10 minutes or less and would be simpler to manufacture than a conventional lithium-ion battery.
and believed it COULD now make a solid-state battery with a range of 1,200 km (745 miles) that could charge in 10 minutes or less and would be simpler to manufacture than a conventional lithium-ion battery.
Much like anyone who claims he COULD satisfy three beautiful women in bed at once, "do it or shut the fuck up."
I grew numb to fantastic masturbatory announcements of the next super amazing battery technology that would never materialize around 2010... The only one recently that I have the slightest belief in is the sodium-ion battery, because the manufacturing plant that turns them out in volume actually exists and commercially available products have been announced for sale.
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To be fair, there have been a bunch of battery advancements in the last 15 years which are shipping in products you can actually buy right now. It isn't all vaporware.
Toyota's announcements though, they're always just an excuse for not doing EVs yet. The technology they need is always coming really soon, any day now. And Toyota's imaginary technology is always so much better than everybody else's current technology, so it'd be a shame to switch to EV right now, you should just keep driving on fossil fuels u
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To be fair, there have been a bunch of battery advancements in the last 15 years which are shipping in products you can actually buy right now. It isn't all vaporware.
No single improvement to batteries has given even a 10% gain in capacity or 10% reduction of charge time - and those types of gains usually aren't the stories that news organizations pick up.
It's the claims of 50%+ more capacity and/or 50%+ less charging time that make the news, and so far, those have all been vaporware. This one follows the same pattern as the vaporware - vagueness over what the method is, focus on the advancement in one single aspect without mentioning any of the other massive issues in t
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Much like anyone who claims he COULD satisfy three beautiful women in bed at once, "do it or shut the fuck up."
I once satisfied three ugly ones. Does that count?
New Batteries are coming (Score:3)
Will believe it when I can buy one (Score:2)
We have been hearing about all kinds of "battery breakthrough" in the news around once a few months for years. I will believe it when they actually put such vehicle in the market where people can actually buy one. Everything else is just vaporware.
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We have been hearing about all kinds of "battery breakthrough" in the news around once a few months for years. I will believe it when they actually put such vehicle in the market where people can actually buy one. Everything else is just vaporware.
True, but usually those come from some university lab or a no-name start-up with a process that works fine in a lab but can't be adapted to mass manufacture. This is coming from Toyota so I think that it may warrant a closer look than usual.
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The truth is there have been continuously incremental battery improvements for the past 20 years or more, those added up to the point where electric vehicles are practical and start to become affordable. Today you can buy an EV that, compared to the original Tesla Model S of 10 years ago, drives 50% farther and costs 3 times less.
Reputable (Score:2)
Normally, I would shrug this off as yet another start-up from Silly Valley trying to get funding. But Toyota is a company with a good reputation as being conservative in their development and honest in their proclamations. I believe they can and will do this, and if the world can serve the demand for electricity by building more nuclear power plants, this will be the true threshold of widepsread adoption of electric vehicles.I'd short Tesla if I played that market.
I actually don't care (Score:5, Insightful)
No, really.
I could do with 100km of range. LiFePo4 would be more than adequate for the task, I think. At only 100km of range, it would be much smaller and lighter and wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.
Now before I go to what I really am looking for that isn't available, let me say that I usually am not representative of the average customer... Somehow I manage this in most aspects of my life so yeah, what this basically is is my personal rant because nobody caters to my desires.
What I lack is a simple car. There are a LOT of annoyances with modern cars that my asperger brain just cannot tolerate, especially given the prices of these things. Driving assistants work sometimes better, sometimes worse depending on manufacturer. I want to be able to turn them off individually. I don't want touch controls. I don't want piano black interior. I don't want a ginormous iPad in the center of my car.
I am completely content with a car that has 2010 non-luxury levels of amenities. If the mirrors and seats can be adjusted electrically, that'll be enough. I don't need heated seats. I have never used mine even once. I don't need in car entertainment. If I have a space for my phone with a USB-C charger, in even an AUX port would do. I could attach a Bluetooth bridge myself. I don't want in car navigation that is har dto update. I don't want my car to need or even have GSM connectivity. AT ALL,
What I want from a car is a responsive gas pedal, comfortable and quiet interior, enough space to take the family of four on vacation and sometimes go shopping at the DIY stores. I would like it to be able to haul something too.
I would like bird's eye parking assistance and cruise control. Adaptive? Yeah, could be nice but I won't die without it.
And I want to be able to interact with my entertainment and climate controls with honest to go buttons.
0-100km/h in under 7 seconds is plenty, 100km range is okay. Price far under 60k CHF.
I feel like most newfangled gadgets only inflate the price but do very little to enhance comfort and fun.
Granted, ours is a family car and while the Mazda CX-9 guzzles 14l per 100km, it gets filled up only every two to three weeks. So yeah, certainly not standard usage. And I get that nobody will make a car for just 5000 people worldwide but I hope it's also understandable why I will not spend 60k plus on a car that annoys me when driving.
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In general, daily trips of less than 20 miles to the same places again and again cry for public transport and not for a car.
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A Nissan Leaf might be a good option for you. It seems like they are phasing that model out, as they stopped selling the largest battery version in the UK. But the 40kWh one is more than enough to meet your range needs.
It seems to tick all the other boxes. The infotainment can be ignored and has an off button that blanks the screen. Physical controls for everything. Birds eye parking cameras. Relatively simple and reliable vehicle, easy and cheap to service, and you can do a lot of it yourself.
For hauling y
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Sounds like you could drive a Leaf. They made a car for you already!
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0-100km/h in under 7 seconds is plenty
You kids with your fancy horse powers, in my day we took our time getting up to speed. Why I remember my sporty 84’ Toyota Corolla SR4, which with 100k miles on it was pushing 15 seconds to 100km/hr. I could still drive on freeways and people still love the car for drifting because it’s rear wheel drive. These newfangled electric horseless carriages zip back and forth too fast to see, why id likely snap my neck just hitting the gas. We were made to take our time getting places, just as god
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I own an electric Citroen Berlingo and it's exactly what you describe. Big, very useful interior, only basic like assist you can disable with a button, basic screen for Android auto, everything else controlled with buttons, basic amenities as options but you can get really bare bones models for like 25.000 Euro. 280km range.
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Congrats, I have the perfect car for you:
https://www.caranddriver.com/m... [caranddriver.com]
You'll have a ton of money left over too. Maybe also get a Miata.
From the "can't buy it yet" dept. (Score:2)
Ages ago I said Slahsdot needed that department, or an icon for it. Then at some point I decided that the battery icon was an excellent proxy for that, because almost all the "can't buy it yet" stories were battery related. Alas, no battery icon just a "transportation" one. Did I imagine it existed, or did they stop using it?
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Not just for cars. (Score:2)
Any battery technology that benefits cars would benefit virtually every industry. Even if you couldnâ(TM)t compress the necessary packaging or charge / discharge control circuitry (aka bms), you could revolutionize home, grid, rv, and boat energy storage.
This article fails the basic sniff test: if a new battery technology existed that offered this kind of specific or volumetric energy density, it would be used for almost anything and everything, not just cars.
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Doesn't pass the smell test (Score:2)
People have long said Toyota was so far ahead of Tesla they could take their time in doing BEVs but with Tesla knocking them off the #1 spot this year they have to know they are on track to become an also ran. So they announce serious game changer in battery techno
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>As much as I would love this to be true is has a bad smell to it.
It sounds like Goodenough's solid state glass battery that was announced in 2019. The breakthrough wouldn't be in the fundamental technology - it was working on a lab bench years ago - but in developing a commercially viable production method.
Which gets here first? Battery or fusion? (Score:2)
Breakthroughs in battery tech are announce all the time, offering game-changing specs. So far, we've not seen much in the way of big leap-forward tech actually make it into the world. The promise of these sorts of batteries is always "a few years away". To be fair, this still seems better than fusion's "about 20 years away", which has been the position for about 50 years now.
Re:Which gets here first? Battery or fusion? (Score:5, Informative)
Breakthroughs in battery tech are announce all the time, offering game-changing specs. So far, we've not seen much in the way of big leap-forward tech actually make it into the world.
Really?
In 2012, the "long range" capability of a Tesla Model S was 265 miles.
In 2021, the "long range" capability of a Tesla Model S was 405 miles.
That's what happened in a single company in less than a decade. A company that was also quite busy fighting against an incessant political fight from the rest of the auto industry while creating next-generation space travel.
If you don't want to call that kind of advancement "game changing" on a planet infected with personal transport, then no one else should be gifted that marketing honor either.
Another day (Score:2)
Another revolutionary battery claim. Yawn.
How are you going to charge it in 10 min? (Score:5, Informative)
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People who have difficulty distinguishing between power and energy probably shouldn't crack jokes about the laws of physics.
It is a game changer if it is true. (Score:2)
It makes it possible for condo and apartment dwellers without their own charging stations to own electric cars.
It makes weekend road trips possible and takes care of reasonable work commutes
MANY charging stations will be needed. Can you imagine what things would be like at gas stations if it took each car 10 minutes to fill up?
Perhaps the way to go is to have a charging station in each parking spot at supermarkets, parking garages, and places o
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Can you imagine what things would be like at gas stations if it took each car 10 minutes to fill up?
People would have to figure out how to stagger their recharging times more. It would be a real hassle, but not insurmountable.
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What is the charging rate? (Score:2)
So what's the charging rate? If the reasonable max at the moment is 250kW, can we assume this battery will need at least 1mW?
How will the power grid infrastructure deliver such high levels of usage? We should be upgrading our power lines now if we're expecting to support this type of load.
Why is distance always touted for new battery tech (Score:2)
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Touted range is meaningless - tell us the battery capacity in terms of kwh, not range. I get it, using range is more of an attention grabber, but range is defendant upon so many other factors.
Yeah. Like procrastination.
But who wants to drive an Aptera 1,000 miles in a single go?
The procrastinator who only cares about range because it means they won't have to be bothered with plugging a cable in more than once a month?
You really seem to be overlooking the most obvious with today's generation. I've never seen so many drivers who will literally use their gas tank like they do their cell phone battery.
"What? The dash says I got 7 miles left and Google says I need to go 6...I'm fine..."
Not sure why I'm not already invested in a roadside assistance busine
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They claim (Score:2)
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Solid state batteries exist. They work, they've been replicated, there are still some problems to be worked out.
Multiple car companies have announced they're going to be using them on similar timeframes to what Toyota is talking about.
10 minute charging time? (Score:2)
Let's make some assumptions here... a fairly dinky 50kW motor. Let's say it's consuming full power at 100km/h for 1200km. That's 12 hours of driving for a total energy expenditure of 600kWh. To charge that in 10 minutes means you put in 600kWh in 1/6 of an hour, which means the charging rate is 3.6MW. So what, your charger runs at 3600V at 1000A??
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yea sure why not, seems safe for home use
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The right link (Score:3)
The summary doesn't match the article it links to (e.g. the claims about range and charging time). The second link should actually go to https://cleantechnica.com/2023... [cleantechnica.com]
Re:Doomed (Score:5, Insightful)
I would never assume a company with Toyota's reputation and history of accomplishment is "doomed". Certainly they've got a lot of work to do to catch up.
On the other hand, just about anybody who's owned a Toyota will be in the market for another one, especially if they're looking for a "next generation" vehicle.
Re:Doomed (Score:4, Insightful)
> I would never assume a company with Toyota's reputation and history of accomplishment is "doomed".
History is littered with the corpses of companies people once heaped such praise upon. Just sayin'
=Smidge=
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> I would never assume a company with Toyota's reputation and history of accomplishment is "doomed".
History is littered with the corpses of companies people once heaped such praise upon. Just sayin'
=Smidge=
You mean failed business history is littered with ignorance and arrogance. Also known as unnecessary voids in longstanding companies.
If Toyota can deliver on even half of their claims, it will (once again) be others playing catch-up due to the same arrogance and ignorance that allowed Toyota to come dominate in other countries 40+ years ago. They don't merely still make the Corolla. They still sell the shit out of them. And the reason for that popularity never changed.
If Toyota can actually pull off the
Re:Doomed (Score:4, Insightful)
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But are they true. If the claims are true, then it doesn't matter why they were made. (And you're probably right about that.)
Re:Doomed (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a very long way from battery chemistry proof of concept to affordable product. In order to scale up production and achieve the massive economies of scale necessary you need years of process development and hardcore engineering. Engineering the manufacturing process is likely to be significantly harder than the research which searches for a new battery type.
If that wasn't the case, solid-state batteries would already be the dominant product: they're not exactly a new idea any more.
Toyota has been making these kind of announcements for about a decade. It hasn't brought them any closer to manufacturing a market-leading product.
And I don't expect this announcement to make a difference.
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They were merely creating and perfecting a dominant product...
Where the hell have you been? The "dominant product" in question was a half-assed attempt to participate in the EV market - the wheels were literally alling off.
Maybe read my statement(s) again before spouting assumptions. I said if the full claims here are actually deliverable after years of development, then they have spent those years testing and creating a dominant product. Even an EV releasing 3 years from now with a 700+ mile range and 10-minute charging would still be considered dominant given development speed over the last decade.
All cars represent products with lots of moving parts. Have since horses were replaced with horsepower, so I have no damn idea
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Besides, Toyota's strength, like Honda's, lies mainly in their ability to design and manufacturer products with lots of moving parts.
So manufacturing products with fewer moving parts is somehow a challenge to Toyota and Honda? I do not understand the logic. You could say that EV's with different parts could be a challenge as they have little experience with those different parts.
On the whole, major parts of the car except the engine and transmission is the same between EV and ICE. Parts like doors and windows on an EV are not radically different than on an ICE. The car body being made of steel and aluminum does not change. Honda and Toy
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I would never assume a company with Toyota's reputation
You mean completely incompetent with software [embeddedgurus.com], or some other part of their reputation? I don't want to buy an electric car, whose characteristics are largely controlled by software, from a company that can't get throttle by wire right.
Re:Doomed (Score:5, Informative)
You should probably just stop driving entirely if those are your standards.
Tesla Recalls 130,000 Vehicles in U.S. Over Software Bug [hypebeast.com]
Software Bug May Cause VW ID.4’s Electric Motor To Stop Working While Driving [carscoops.com]
Software Bug On Some 2021 Mustang Mach-Es Causing Unintended Acceleration [carscoops.com]
Nissan Recalls Nearly 1 Million Cars for Air Bag Software Fix [ieee.org]
Re: Doomed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: Doomed (Score:2)
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The Model S was a strategic product for Tesla in the beginning - that's no longer the case. Model 3 and Model Y are Tesla's strategic focus now. That's why they increased the Model S price, to give it some margin head-room.
Model Y is the best-selling vehicle globally so far this year. A bit early to proclaim "Tesla's been dead for quite some time now", don't you think?
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If their claim is true (very big if) every manufacturer will want to use their battery technology.
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Just how are they going to "pulverize" anyone if there stated plan is "It plans to manufacture 3 million of them a year by 2030"?
How impressive is 3 million cars per year? That's way less than the more than 10 millions cars Toyota sells worldwide per year, but that's more than double what Tesla does right now.
3 million cars per year in 5-7 years would a far faster ramp-up than Tesla's 1.3 million in 15 years.
Now, will Toyota be able to hit this target? That remains to be seen. This Toyota announcement includes words like "aims", "potential", and "believe". Even for a PR piece, that doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence.
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Just how are they going to "pulverize" anyone if there stated plan is "It plans to manufacture 3 million of them a year by 2030"?
An EV with a 1200km range and a 10 minute charge will change the industry. Right now range and charging time are two of the limitations that are keeping the average consumer from buying an EV. If Toyota can make it reliable then competitors will be struggling to keep up with them. That includes Tesla.
Re: Doomed (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm skeptical of the claims having heard far, far too many "revolutionary battery" claims for decades.
However if they do deliver what they claim and there isn't a "catch" (such as the battery life is short), I agree it totally changes the equation. Suddenly "home charging" wouldn't really matter much. Sure, for cost and convenience, some people would do it but many people who live in homes that are not already set up for (realistic) home charging would probably opt to charge at a charging station - at least until they next remodel/renovate.
It would also effectively eliminate the barrier to EVs to the ~33% of the households who are renters - the vast majority of which don't have a "home charging" option.
Of course, we would need more "super super chargers" - if a ten minute public charger isn't readily available the ability to charge in ten minutes is of theoretical interest only.
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Uhm, the only innovation of an electric car is it's battery. The electronics are pretty old school. Tesla's been dead for quite some time now. If Toyota did what they claim, they will pulverize the competition, and not only in the car market. But let's wait and see.
To charge a battery with that capacity in ten minutes is very impressive indeed. Gonna be hella current going into it in order to charge a battery with that energy density in that short a time Some serious watts.
We've been inundated with miracle batteries for a long time now. Most of the "Ehrmagherd!" batteries seem to violate things like the electrochemical series Standard Electrode potential or even the conservation of energy. Just one example, the quantum battery.
The self charging quantum battery so
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There have been a bunch of innovations in power electronics, motors, and control schemes.
Re:Doomed (Score:5, Interesting)
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They are now putting more petrol power in their cars and diminishing the role of the battery. They have got it backwards.
That's not entirely wrong, but they're not doing it hard enough. There are only two kinds of hybrids it really makes sense to make: full plug-in, and mild. You get 80+% of the benefit of a full hybrid with a mild one. You get way more benefit with a hybrid if you can run it on electric all the time, except when you make a long trip, hence the benefit of a full hybrid. The only thing that makes no sense is a full hybrid you can't plug in... which they did exclusively for years.
Toyota is dumb AF, which is a g
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There are only two kinds of hybrids it really makes sense to make: full plug-in, and mild. You get 80+% of the benefit of a full hybrid with a mild one. You get way more benefit with a hybrid if you can run it on electric all the time, except when you make a long trip, hence the benefit of a full hybrid. The only thing that makes no sense is a full hybrid you can't plug in... which they did exclusively for years.
This doesn't seem right at all. "Mild" hybrids are basically just start-stop systems with maybe a bit of assist on acceleration and electric accessories.
Normal hybrids like the Prius have significant advantages in city driving conditions. I don't know of any car that has both options but whenever there is a mild hybrid version, it seems to make barely any difference compared to pure ICE.
Now plug-in is "better" but also costs more to buy and you have to recharge it every day. Great option if you can fit your
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They're certainly late to the game but I don't think it's (necessarily) fatal unless they keep doubling down on hydrogen or something.
They have a huge footprint in hybrids and those are basically EV by now and capable of driving on electric only, and new models are often available as plug-ins. As batteries become cheaper and more energy dense, they can slowly put larger and large ones in until the engines aren't necessary.
As for the solid state tech, I trust them a bit more than some random startup claiming
Re: Doomed (Score:2)
Hybrids still use gasoline. They are not EVs. That's what most Prius are.
Maybe you meant plug in hybrids - PHEVs, which possibly can be run on electricity without any gasoline.
In which case only the Prius Prime qualifies. The older Plug in Prius couldn't drive electric on freeway and doesn't really count.
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Any vehicle that uses an electric motor to drive the wheels is an EV (Electric Vehicle). Meaning that the E in EV refers to the electric motor based drivetrain.
In other words, the term EV is a class of electric vehicle but does not specify the power source. The only important criteria is the presence of an electric motor to drive the wheels.
To avoid confusion, use the term BEV to specifically refer to the EV type that has a traction battery to power the electric motor(s) which turn the wheels.
A BEV is an EV
Re:Doomed (Score:5, Funny)
Toyota is much too late, has no real product yet. They are doomed.
Never underestimate a mega-corporation with a superabundance of cash that isn't being run by a complete space cadet with an extremely expensive and unhealthy Twitter obsession.
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Where do you think Toyota are going to get the money to convert their factories from ICEVs to BEVs production?
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Um? You do know Toyota does not actually have "superabundance of cash"? In fact they are the most indebted company in the world? Not the most indebted auto manufacture, but the most indebted company of any type, at $220.57 B owed. Tesla has a $17 B surplus. Where do you think Toyota are going to get the money to convert their factories from ICEVs to BEVs production?
And Toyota booked a net profit of USD 18 billion in 2022. If this pans out for them they should be pretty OK. That being said, even if they mess the ICEVs to BEVs transition up does it matter? Given that Toyota Motors are Japan's most successful business I'm pretty sure that the Japanese government will bail them out of any FUBAR Toyota's leadership manages to construct so long as there is enough Taxpayer money in Japan to pay the bill. That's what politicians around the world always do. Governments around
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Actually I would like to see the Japanese manufacturer succeed, I really want a 4 motor Suzuki Jimny. I have decades of Japanese vehic
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When it comes to profit it is worth researching how much profit each company makes on each car they sell. Tesla are doing well on that metric.
That's like comparing apples and oranges. Tesla makes luxury vehicles. Toyota for the most part makes no-nonsense cars aimed the general public. Toyota makes lower margins but make it up in sales volume. Similarly Apple makes luxury phones with a few not very inspiring medium segment models while Android is aimed at the wide majority of all users outside the luxury market right down to the budget models. Those are two completely different business models. What matters is how much profit a car company makes
Re: (Score:2)
When it comes to profit it is worth researching how much profit each company makes on each car they sell. Tesla are doing well on that metric.
That's like comparing apples and oranges. Tesla makes luxury vehicles. Toyota for the most part makes no-nonsense cars aimed the general public.
Toyota not only makes luxury Toyotas, they have an entirely separate luxury brand, in Lexus. Toyota is no different than any other mega-car company now: they focus on higher-end, higher-profit margin vehicles because no one makes any money off the entry level stuff anymore.
Re: (Score:2)
When it comes to profit it is worth researching how much profit each company makes on each car they sell. Tesla are doing well on that metric.
That's like comparing apples and oranges. Tesla makes luxury vehicles. Toyota for the most part makes no-nonsense cars aimed the general public.
Toyota not only makes luxury Toyotas, they have an entirely separate luxury brand, in Lexus. Toyota is no different than any other mega-car company now: they focus on higher-end, higher-profit margin vehicles because no one makes any money off the entry level stuff anymore.
For one thing, I don't think Toyota will stand and fall with their revenue from luxury vehicles. Given the choice, in an economic depression, I'd rather own Toyota stock than Tesla stock. Toyota at least have market ready options all the way down the budgets scale, Tesla sells nothing but varying degrees of Luxury. Whatever car(s) are going to make EVs a mainstream hit with the general public and dominate the market are going to come from the likes of Toyota not Tesla because Tesla is the Apple of the car i
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Doomed (Score:5, Informative)
Toyota is much too late, has no real product yet. They are doomed.
Toyota does have a range of EVs in Europe - both vans and a small SUV, the brilliantly named bZ4x [toyota.no].
Re:Doomed (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Toyota is much too late, has no real product yet.
They are doomed.
Toyota does have a range of EVs in Europe - both vans and a small SUV, the brilliantly named bZ4x [toyota.no].
I'm presuming Toyota makes their vehicles with right-hand steering for those of you in Europe, unlike Tesla which now makes only left-hand steering but conveniently provides a reacher [electrek.co] for you to use.
most of Europe is right hand drive (Score:4, Interesting)
The only parts of Europe that are left hand drive(right-hand steering as you put it) are The UK, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org].
Tesla make Model 3 and Y in both RHD and LHD but currently only make the Model S and X in RHD(they did LHD versions in the past) so not great for India, UK, Japan, Australia etc.
I would guess that they do not sell enough S+X to justify LHD versions.
Re: (Score:3)
Are you mixing up RHD with RHT?
Re: (Score:2)
I think you have got your LHD and RHD terms swapped over.
RHD means Right Hand Drive so has the steering wheel on the right, vehicle drives on the left eg. UK
LHD means Left Hand Drive so has the steering wheel on the left, vehicle drives on the right eg. France
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Re:Finally Toyota is seeing the light (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Finally Toyota is seeing the light (Score:3)
Did you read the comment? He said hedging their bets, not switching entirely.
Re: (Score:2)
No, this is their continual pitch that you shouldn't buy an EV now because they will have so much better EVs in the near future. Pure marketing.
As the summary states... solid state batteries are coming together, albeit slowly. IMO they are more likely to make it into air taxis before cars though if the gravimetric density is double current advanced production Lithium-ion batteries.