Raspberry Pi 5 Not Launching Until After 2023 (tomshardware.com) 83
Les Pounder writes via Tom's Hardware: Raspberry Pi CEO Eben Upton announced via a recent blog post that 100,000 units would be making their way into the supply chain, and that the in the latter-half of 2023 we can expect stock levels to return to pre-pandemic normality. That said, the supply chain shortage has impacted the normal cadence of Raspberry Pi releases, and according to Upton in an interview with Christopher Barnatt from Explaining Computers it means we sadly won't be seeing a Raspberry Pi 5 in 2023.
In the interview, Explaining Computers host Barnatt asks Upton about the future of the Raspberry Pi and if there are new models on the horizon. Upton then talks about how the past couple of years have been "weird" (pandemic and global chip shortage) and it has disrupted the cadence of Raspberry Pi development and release. Upton states that "the platform [Raspberry Pi 4] has been around longer than any Raspberry Pi platform has been around before, I think." At 29 minutes and 30 seconds Upton breaks the bad news, "Don't expect a Pi 5 next year [2023]" Upton then expands and explains that 2023 is a "recovery year". The recovery year is there to help Raspberry Pi and the technology industry recover from the double-punch of a pandemic and a global chip shortage which has caused a slowdown across the world.
Upton explains "What would really be a disaster would be if we tried to introduce some kind of Raspberry Pi 5 product" Upton provides a scenario akin to that of the Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W, launched midway through the pandemic. It has been relatively unobtainium since release. Upton said he is very concerned about the consequences "if we introduced a Raspberry Pi 5 product and it couldn't ramp properly because of constraints, or if we introduced some Raspberry Pi 5 product and it somehow cannibalized some supply chain element." Upton then explains how cannibalization could impact the recovery of Raspberry Pi 4 and the 3 / 3+ and that Raspberry Pi has to be "ginger" as they move forward with its recovery. "The good news is the second half of next year, 2024 onwards, some of those things start to abate. And that's the point where we can start to think about what might be a sensible Raspberry Pi 5 platform," Upton said.
In the interview, Explaining Computers host Barnatt asks Upton about the future of the Raspberry Pi and if there are new models on the horizon. Upton then talks about how the past couple of years have been "weird" (pandemic and global chip shortage) and it has disrupted the cadence of Raspberry Pi development and release. Upton states that "the platform [Raspberry Pi 4] has been around longer than any Raspberry Pi platform has been around before, I think." At 29 minutes and 30 seconds Upton breaks the bad news, "Don't expect a Pi 5 next year [2023]" Upton then expands and explains that 2023 is a "recovery year". The recovery year is there to help Raspberry Pi and the technology industry recover from the double-punch of a pandemic and a global chip shortage which has caused a slowdown across the world.
Upton explains "What would really be a disaster would be if we tried to introduce some kind of Raspberry Pi 5 product" Upton provides a scenario akin to that of the Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W, launched midway through the pandemic. It has been relatively unobtainium since release. Upton said he is very concerned about the consequences "if we introduced a Raspberry Pi 5 product and it couldn't ramp properly because of constraints, or if we introduced some Raspberry Pi 5 product and it somehow cannibalized some supply chain element." Upton then explains how cannibalization could impact the recovery of Raspberry Pi 4 and the 3 / 3+ and that Raspberry Pi has to be "ginger" as they move forward with its recovery. "The good news is the second half of next year, 2024 onwards, some of those things start to abate. And that's the point where we can start to think about what might be a sensible Raspberry Pi 5 platform," Upton said.
Added word to spell check? (Score:1)
Re:Added word to spell check? (Score:5, Funny)
Just because you Yanks pronounce it "unobtanum" doesn't mean it's spelt that way.
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Yeah...I don't think that's a "yank" thing...I've never heard it butchered like that. It's such a nerd/geek word...just about everyone that uses it, knows how to pronounce and spell it. However being that "relatively" is an adverb, and "unobtainium" is a noun..."relatively unobtainium" is grammatically incorrect.
Maybe "relative unobtainium" or "relatively unobtainable"
I dunno...I'm not an English teacher.
Re:Added word to spell check? (Score:5, Informative)
He was making a joke about "aluminium" vs "aluminum".
Whoosh.
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Surely you meant "aluminunium".
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Wordplay aside, I have seen the Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W in stock relatively often (more often than the Pi 4). As a matter of fact, I have two in my stash and could buy two more (they are limited to one per customer when in stock, asked my wife to buy one and I bought one), but decided not to, because I didn't need them at the time.
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Unless your wife has a different address or you guys have a P.O. box in addition to receive packages directly at home, you are abusing the "one per customer" policy IMHO.
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The policy is "one per customer", not "one per postal address".
My wife and I are different customers. Furthermore, considering one of those Pis went into a 3D printer I have built for her, we're very much OK with this.
Is it going to be any good? (Score:4)
If they're gonna make us wait until what looks like mid-2024 or even 2025, then it better really knock shit out the park. I'm talking 4K youtube playback with no frame drops, and fanless. The current raspberry pi 4 requirement of having a fan is retarded.
Re:Is it going to be any good? (Score:5, Interesting)
A good heat sink case is sufficient for me with the 4, but YMMV.
Personally though, I think it is time for some good competitors to go mainstream. I want a PoE unit without GPIO pins with a heat-sink case integrated into the initial design.
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I think it is time for some good competitors to go mainstream
Agreed. But the thing that the Pi has going for it, is that you know the software distributions are going to work with it, without a bunch of screwing around. Plus, every how-to, youtube video, maker project, etc is Pi-centric...so people are reluctant to branch out. I think there are some really good alternatives out there...but to buy any of them, feels like "diverging from a standard". Though, I know there are some that are close to drop-in replacements.
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Have a look at thin clients. You can get them used for cheap.
I'd like to see a more efficient model that doesn't use so much power and doesn't get so hot. 3A at 5V is not trivial to supply in many situations.
More RAM would be of more benefit than more CPU power for many applications.
Re: Is it going to be any good? (Score:2)
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They are good for Home Assistant and the like, but not as good as a cheap used thin client. They are sort of too powerful for typical RPi stuff, and not powerful enough for say a low power server with a bunch of VMs.
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3A at 5V is not trivial to supply in many situations.
Like where? You don't even need 2A to drive an RPi 4. The 3A recommendation is for with a bunch of USB peripherals attached. And 3A USB-C power supplies aren't hard to come by.
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I'm working on some battery powered stuff at the moment, and the need to supply that much current, plus losses in the switch mode converter, limits options a bit.
Ideally you could set a power budget for it.
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Yeah OK, the Pi has never been the absolute best choice for battery power, since it's not on the super efficient end. With that said, a Pi-4 draws about 1.8A under full load, less for the slower models. Unless you're also loading it down with USB peripherals then you don't need 3A.
the need to supply that much current, plus losses in the switch mode converter, limits options a bit.
A bit? Not that much. Plenty of ready made modules that will do that for under a tenner in unit quantities. Things like these:
ht [rs-online.com]
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I'm going with a 3A DC-DC module for the Pi and official touchscreen. Main issue was the lithium battery voltage. I'm away at the moment but from memory the converter was 9-36V input, so the battery has to be 4 cell.
There was something else as well... Can't remember.
The modules are not cheap, but quicker than designing a discrete regulator and properly testing it. A 1A regulator isn't too bad, but at 3A you start having to be a bit more careful with the design and layout.
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I'm going with a 3A DC-DC module for the Pi and official touchscreen.
Yeah OK the touchscreen adds a bunch, still not that bad though.
Also, the Linux world seems to have developed a stupid fashion for limiting the smallest size you can resize windows too, because copying the shit bits of commercial software is clearly what's going to make it appeal to "the masses". Quite a lot of software is now becoming unusable on the official touchscreen since the resolution is too low.
I'm away at the moment but from mem
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The GP clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. What he seems to want is a high end PC for $40 which runs off a Amazon special burn-your-house-down-and-electrocute-the-kids grey market USB wall wart. Oh, and coupled with a Samsoong or Sundisk UHS-4, speed class 12, V120 SD card from Banggood. You know the 512GB for $3 deals.
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I want a PoE unit without GPIO pins
You want something completely different than a Pi then. One of these things without GPIO is like ... well ... just a small form factor computer. The whole point of the Pi platform is largely the GPIO header. It's its core reason for existing.
with a heat-sink case integrated into the initial design.
No need. After market heatsinks integrate basically perfectly without any need to modify the design. Here you can even pimp your pi with different colours https://thepihut.com/products/... [thepihut.com]
Given the highly varied workloads these systems find themselves in I don't think i
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There are plenty of competitors. The problem has always been support. Raspberry Pis are not the fastest nor cheapest SBCs available - there are easily a dozen or more competitors that have come out.
The problem is, those competitors just release product and then forget about it - the key to the RPi is the ongoing support you get from th
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There are plenty of competitors. The problem has always been support. Raspberry Pis are not the fastest nor cheapest SBCs available - there are easily a dozen or more competitors that have come out.
Support and availability. Well, pre-pandemic, they were available from a large number of well reputed vendors and of course they keep making them for years, so you won't be left high and dry.
There's also the "cheap enough" factor. If you're only spending $40 on the SBC, you don't have to put in a lot of time with
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The problem is, those competitors just release product and then forget about it - the key to the RPi is the ongoing support you get from the community. Releasing a good product isn't enough, you have to build the community and the way you do that is ongoing support - so software updates and such are critical.
Khadas VIMs are pretty decent in this regard, high performance, low power and fairly well community supported. I have several deployed, including a couple primarily-battery-powered projects. Pricey though.
Granted, Ebon Upton and the RPi Foundation have a bit of an advantage in that Broadcom is supporting their efforts (likely because the efforts also flow back to them - everyone who commits an updated RPi kernel means Broadcom has an updated Linux kernel for that SoC they can use so it's always up to date)
I just wish Broadcom wasn't such a turd with their proprietary blobs and drivers making it difficult or impossible to do, say, OpenWRT on their SoCs.
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Try this video from Jeff Geerling [youtube.com]
Re:Is it going to be any good? (Score:4, Insightful)
The Pi wasn't meant to be a media player. If you need something with that much horsepower then buy it. The fact the Pi performs as well as it does is a miracle.
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So you're saying I shouldn't want it to meet my requirements? They should meet yours instead? Who cares what they "meant it to be."
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So you're saying I shouldn't want it to meet my requirements?
If it doesn't meet your requirements then you have two choice. Complain or use a product that does. Odroid makes some high end ARM boards that will do 4k60 playback of x265 video. Can't vouch for it's Youtube performance though.
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You should review your expectations, then.
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The Pi wasn't meant to be a media player.
I will chime in though that media playing through web browsers is singularly awful in terms of efficiency. My old laptop can barely keep up playing 1080p60 on youtube now. Playing the same video in mplayer barely registers.
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Not really, the GPU has dedicated hardware for decoding video. The very first model had a camera connector too, which accepted compressed video for the GPU to decode.
1080p H.264 was supported from the start, and Kodi was an early port. The hardware was similar to other dedicated media players of the time.
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The Pi wasn't meant to be a media player.
Funny you mention that, it was literally one of the first use cases for the Pi and much was said about the SoC's hardware decoding of video and even more was said about the fact you had to buy an additional license to use said hardware decoder.
But really your comment is silly. The Pi was meant to be anything you could think of using it for and my original Pis found homes as power monitors, games consoles, and yes also a media player. It simply has gotten better at playing media over time. The Pi 2 still str
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The sad part for me is that the later models get more expensive. Sure, they are more powerful, but for me the power of the first model would be enough in most cases. I need USB and Ethernet, so Rpi zero is not useful to me.
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This was inappropriately modded down. The hardware decoder looks incredible too.
Re:Is it going to be any good? (Score:5, Informative)
The current raspberry pi 4 requirement of having a fan is retarded.
The Raspberry Pi 4 doesn't require a fan UNLESS you are trying to overclock it. It works fine at the standard clock speed with just a passive heat sink. You don't even need a heat sink if you are satisfied with the Pi throttling the clock speed to manage the thermal load.
Even if they offered the Pi with an integrated fan and heat sink, someone would still complain. "What? No RGB lighting?" "I wanted a low profile fan!" "Why should I pay for a fan when I'm going to integrate it into my outdoor weather station? What a waste!" "I'm running it off batteries! I don't want the power drain of active cooling I don't need."
The advantage of selling just the SBC with so many customization options is everyone can pay the $3-$15 to get whatever cooling option they want.
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The advantage of selling just the SBC with so many customization options is everyone can pay the $3-$15 to get whatever cooling option they want.
Also, being so customizable and useful for so many things means it gives endless opportunity for whinging from the peanut gallery. It's great and you don't eve need to shell out the $40 to get one!
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I'm running multiple Raspberry 4s without fans, and they work decently. Fans do help, but they are not a must, as a decent heat sink is good enough for a lot of things.
I do admit, it would be nice if cooling/throttling wasn't much of an issue, but it would mean compromises in other items on the board.
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It has a lot of compromises, but there isn't really much money to be made in for a hobbyist-tier SBC platform. At best, it would be something someone would use to breadboard a prototype, then take it to another platform for mass production... which is why the Raspberry Pi Computer Modules are useful, as those can be used for medium scale runs, then large scale runs could just use their SoCs. I don't know how any company could stay afloat just by selling to the maker/hobbyist market, as there isn't an econ
Re: Is it going to be any good? (Score:2)
Playing YouTube is what this box was NOT built for. This is basically on Arduino with a little more standard PC connectivity running Linux (out of necessity with lots more RAM and CPU) and with stellar software support (even the first version is still fully supported).
People trying to make out of this a mediacentre are still living in 2011. Now there are plenty that just work out of the box or if you want something that runs Linux there are second-hand thin clients that are standard Intel x86 machines very
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The current raspberry pi 4 requirement of having a fan is retarded.
Huh? It requires a fan? I must have been using my Pi4s wrong.
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It has plenty of fans. It also has critics.
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I was running OpenCV on it, and it would spazz out without the fan.
What about 4? (Score:2, Insightful)
RPi 5!? I already can't get an RPi 4 and it's been three years! It was supposed to be $45, but they go for $200+ in America. Sometimes you can find the 2 GB model for $130. Even the 3B+ (1GB) goes for $190.
Re: What about 4? (Score:2)
I think the MSRP for Pi4 1GB was even $35 and what's more they upgraded to 2TB later while keeping the price.
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What about the 4? Well that question would be answered if you just RTFS.
Supply not the only reason for the shortage (Score:1)
So they are finally allocating a measly 100,000 units to the supply chain that is accessible to normal people as opposed to their subsidized favored industrial customers.
I haven't watched the video interview, but what I doubt was mentioned is that the powers-that-be at Raspberry Pi have prioritized selling to industrial customers at prices well below fair-market value. So the industrial customers have no motive to find other solutions, and the educational, maker, and hobbyist markets that were the original
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Well, losing one industrial customer is worse than suddenly losing thousands of makers. The effect of losing a major industrial customer is that their competitors will acquire the capital and investment justification to create a competing device. If the competitor tried to cater to the makers, the marketing costs would be too high for them to offer the competing device at an attractive price point. Therefore keeping the industrial customers effectively blocks the makers from finding a competitor. Marketing
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Short and long game. In the long term losing the hobbyist market would be a disaster for the Pi. In the short term keeping the industrial users on board is vital. The problem is the short term has turned into the long term in terms of the availability of devices.
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move onto other solutions
That's the solution. We're well past the point where RP can be forgiven; they're on the fat wallet tip and they're not going to toy with the gravy train.
Look elsewhere.
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but what I doubt was mentioned is that the powers-that-be at Raspberry Pi have prioritized selling to industrial customers at prices well below fair-market value. So the industrial customers have no motive to find other solutions
Correction, the Pi foundation isn't handing us industrial customers a motive on a silver platter.
We buy in the millions, and for customer designs that will be built, deployed, and maintained in the field for 10-20 years into the future.
When you force us manufacturers to spend millions of dollars redesigning a product and paying out broken contract clauses to our customers, you aren't as much "providing motive to find other solutions" as you are getting blackballed from the entire industry.
If they don't fix this soon, the amazing ecosystem developed around Raspberry Pi will rot. Hobbyists don't need the headache and will move onto other solutions.
No, no they will n
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The industrial customers are what pays for the Raspberry Pi foundation to work and be able to sell to individuals. Which is understandable why they are making sure their availability and needs are taken care of. I don't think any SBC maker could exist just on the hobbyist/maker market alone, so it might suck about availability... but better that than no boards, or random boards from China with spotty (if any) documentation, and no real way to upgrade to new Linux kernels due to binary SBC driver blobs use
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The supply problem is aggravated because Raspberry Pi is selling product to favored industrial customers at below market value and in some cases below cost. Upton even admitted in a blog post (https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/supply-chain-update-its-good-news/) that they would be taking a loss on every Pi Zero at the old price. Of course the favored industrial customers love that because they are getting components for an amazing price. If Pi would let the price for everyone drift closer to market value
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If they don't fix this soon, the amazing ecosystem developed around Raspberry Pi will rot. Hobbyists don't need the headache and will move onto other solutions.
No, no they will not. Hobbyists will buy whatever is the cheapest option at that one moment in time.
That wasn't historically true. Most folks bought Raspberry Pi hardware because of its support. But these days, it has become true, largely because the Raspberry Pi foundation has so thoroughly failed at supply chain management.
At this point, I suspect that most of us have already moved on to other solutions. A board that will be back-ordered for an entire year plus three bucks will buy you a small cup of coffee at Starbucks, and no SBC that you can't buy is worth targeting.
At this point, I'm actively try
Orange Pi 5 is Shipping (Score:2)
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Spec wise, yeah. Price wise...meh. The Pi was a cheap computer...but going from ~$35, to $100+ is a pretty big jump. If you have a legit use for it...sure. But, it's no longer in the "grab one to play around with" range. $100 hasn't been devalued that much.
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Agreed. We switched to Orange Pi - and the Mango Pi with RISC-V - because we got sick of Raspberry Pis being unobtainium. And we won't be going back. Having to buy whole Raspberry Pi kits with cases, cables and adapters drives costs up for system installers who only wanted the bare SBCs. Raspberry Pi killed their own market by being greedy bastards.
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If only Orange Pi 5 supported PoE....
Already moved on (Score:1)
I have no faith in RPI foundation and moved on to other platforms that are drop in replacements with no supply chain issues, less cost and more performance
translation: (Score:2)
Too late. (Score:2)
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They're like the Apple of SBCs.
At least Apple can supply product.
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They're like the Apple of SBCs
Cheap, the largest software ecosystem, and with long support windows? That sounds 100% not like Apple at all. RPi are still manufacturing as new a model that would by now landfill for Apple.
Good, perhaps the technology leap will be larger (Score:2)
The Pi4 is good, be difficult to beat it.
Would like AV1 support.
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The pi4 is on a 28 nm CPU. You remember 28nm, right? From like a decade ago? Beating it would be trivial. Switch to 14nm or 7nm and use "big-core" ARM or RISC-V.
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I would like to see the ridiculous power requirements of a 7nm ATmega328...
Who cares (Score:2)
Except for the RP2040, RPi hardware has been consistently badly (and in some cases outright incompetently) designed. Get an alternative.
What am I missing? (Score:2)
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The big boys have more powerful solution, but they cost quite a lot more and hence the community support is much smaller compared to the Raspberry Pi.
Ebon Upton is a liar. (Score:2)
Meanwhile, 64-bit Orange Pi and Banana Pi are fine (Score:2)
Meanwhile, 64-bit Orange Pi and Banana Pi are doing just fine and are readily available.
Even PINE64 is thriving.
What's the Raspberry Pi Foundation's problem?
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What's the Raspberry Pi Foundation's problem?
Broadcom. They aren't manufacturing enough CPUs, and without partially breaking pin compatibility, Raspberry Pi can't switch to a different SoC vendor. Notice what all the manufacturers that are shipping products have in common: they use a non-Broadcom SoC.
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Also, thanks for mentioning Banana Pi. I wasn't aware of that one. Their BPI-M6 actually appears to be almost a true drop-in replacement, complete with MIPI-DSI and PoE pins and a 40-pin connector that's presumably at least close to being pin-compatible. And it should be faster. The only thing missing is an 8 GB version. I think I may order one.
Not good enough (Score:2)
I'm going to wait for a 32-cores Raspberry Pi Pico with 4224 KiB of RAM.