Fast-Charging EV Batteries With Nickel Foil (ieee.org) 193
IEEE Spectrum reports that "Standard electric-vehicle batteries can recharge much of their range in just 10 minutes with the addition of a thin sheet of nickel inside them, a new study finds."
This could provide a welcome and economically attractive alternative to expensive EVs that carry massive and massively expensive battery packs. If faster-charging options were available, enabling the EV's sticker price to drop substantially, some researchers suspect consumers' EV phobia and industry dogma against "range anxiety" could be overcome....
In the new study, researchers experimented with a lithium-ion battery with a roughly 560-kilometer range when fully charged. (The battery's energy density was 265 watt-hours-per-kilogram.) By adding an ultrathin nickel foil to its interior [to heat the battery quickly], they could recharge it to 70 percent in 11 minutes for a roughly 400-km range, and 75 percent in 12 minutes for a roughly 440-km range.
"Our technology enables smaller, faster-charging batteries to be deployed for mass adoption of affordable electric cars," says study senior author Chao-Yang Wang, a battery engineer at Pennsylvania State University....
The scientists detailed their findings online in the journal Nature.
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader gunner2028 for sharing the story.
In the new study, researchers experimented with a lithium-ion battery with a roughly 560-kilometer range when fully charged. (The battery's energy density was 265 watt-hours-per-kilogram.) By adding an ultrathin nickel foil to its interior [to heat the battery quickly], they could recharge it to 70 percent in 11 minutes for a roughly 400-km range, and 75 percent in 12 minutes for a roughly 440-km range.
"Our technology enables smaller, faster-charging batteries to be deployed for mass adoption of affordable electric cars," says study senior author Chao-Yang Wang, a battery engineer at Pennsylvania State University....
The scientists detailed their findings online in the journal Nature.
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader gunner2028 for sharing the story.
I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "phobia" (Score:2, Interesting)
while at the same time you mention a pretty valid shortcoming of existing battery solutions.
Re:I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "phobi (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Most people who live in apartment buildings or private homes with older wiring cannot charge at home. For those people, going to a charging station and waiting an hour or two to charge is a problem. It may be doable once a week but not more often than that. People work until they drop nowadays so even a half hour extra to charge is too much for most, other than on a day off.
So let's say your commute is 50 miles per day. Now you need 7*50=350 miles to go through the week. But of course batteries degrade fast
Re: (Score:2)
Everyone's a fan of faster charging and longer ranges, but your maths is way off the real world.
To make your maths work, you:
- Assumed a 50 mile commute (average distance driven in US is about 36 miles per day, 20 in UK; https://www.kbb.com/car-advice... [kbb.com] for US data from DoT)
- Assumed a seven day working week, or that weekend driving was the same distance as weekday driving
- Assumed regular charging to 100% is a bad idea (not true at all: BMS manages charging, you don't actually reach 100% bc of buffering,
Re: (Score:2)
Phobia refers to the fact that for most people with normal usage patterns, range is not an issue at all.
But just don't you dare be abnormal or you're fucked.
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "phob (Score:5, Insightful)
So when our neighborhoods power distribution area was hit by a car and taken out leaving us without power for 2 weeks, what does that 100 mile range do for me then?
What about random long traffic jams when I dunno, something like a bridge falls on I75 leaving people stuck in 95 degree heat for 4 hours unable to get off the freeway or "charge". What if they were 80 miles into that range?
Generally its not a great idea to base broad public policy off once in every 20 year or once in 100 year events.
Re: (Score:2)
Wait, what? It is indeed imperative to base policy off rare events. For example if you build a bridge without considering rare wind events you get Tacoma Narrows disaster. Our very notion of "quality equipment" in almost every area of technology is based off the ability to perform far outside the norm. We absolutely do want a significant margin of error in every human endeavor, especially as a matter of broad public policy.
Re: (Score:2)
design for rare wind events is a very specific policy, not a broad social direction. the broad policy is "build bridges despite the risk off 100 year events", the specific policy for 20 or 100 year events is "build them this way"
the broad polocy is "build EVs as they are better on several metrics for society as a whole" the specifcs are just that, specific. if we want to set minimum ranges or operating conditions for certain environments lets do that but those problems should not stop the general broad di
Re: (Score:3)
You have it backwards. Nobody is against EVs. We need more charging infrastructure, faster charging cars and bigger batteries and the only way to get there is for people who can afford these cars and who have the infrastructure to use them to pave the way.
The issue we are discussing is that the vast majority of people are locked out of EVs for legitimate reasons and their use cases must be considered legitimate rather than vilified as phobias. You cannot exclude people who drive a lot or people who want to
Re: (Score:2)
The issue we are discussing is that the vast majority of people are locked out of EVs
That begs the question, are the vast majority of people are locked out of EVs? And the answer is, no they are not at all. Most households have multiple vehicles. Most people's commute is short enough that EVs will do the job. Most people in the market for a new car have a place to plug one in. Most people's commute charging needs can be met with a cheap and not particularly high-current outlet, so it wouldn't be expensive to add one. Most states are planning to add interstate charging eventually, and many a
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
We need more charging infrastructure, faster charging cars and bigger batteries
All of these, every one, are on the horizon with both public subsidies and private market demand. Both the infrastruture bill and the inflationr eduction act have a bunch of things to install more chargers and develop more batteries. 10 battery factories are planned to open in the next 3 years in the US alone,, huge yearly capacity increases.
claim that these are phobic idiots
this is emotional and a strawman as i never said anything of the sort and nor did anyone here as i can tell. what people like me don't appreciate is the using of peo
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
We would be better off switching without solving the charging "problems". Almost nobody I know benefits from faster charging. Over 85% of charging occurs at home and occurs overnight with far less user time invested than going to a gas station and pumping gas. Over half of those who charge at home have never charged anywhere else except for an experimental one just to prove they could do it. This is a problem for a few that can already be equitably solved by having those few pay more instead of the socialis
Re: (Score:2)
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "pho (Score:2)
I think he is referring to this kind of thinking "well since the roads will flood once every 20 years we shouldn't build roads or cars at all."
This is similar to the excuses some people give as to why we shouldn't build electric cars or their infrastructure.
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse sheboons of "p (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
bridge design is a specific policy.
its the difference between saying "dont build bridges because they might get knocked down" to "build them with specific goals"
Re: (Score:2)
It's not equivalent, readiness is subjective.
Net zero is 30 years off, equivalency might simply not be on the cards. Maybe you'll just have to shell out a multiple for synthetic fuel or choose to live with EV to protect your wallet, never again having equivalent use for equivalent cost. Or perhaps liquid hydrogen if you can live with the downsides of that, long haul trucking will likely move to liquid hydrogen so it will be available.
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "phob (Score:5, Interesting)
You forget that every car has a limited range. It makes the scenarios you present ... less than
So when our neighborhoods power distribution area was hit by a car and taken out leaving us without power for 2 weeks, what does that 100 mile range do for me then?
Gas stations don't work when the power is out either. The EV is no less inconvenient in that situation than an ICE engine, though the EV has an extra feature: It can be used to power you home. The sun can do the rest. [electrek.co]
What about random long traffic jams when I dunno, something like a bridge falls on I75 leaving people stuck in 95 degree heat for 4 hours unable to get off the freeway or "fill up". What if they were 200 miles into that range?
With a few quick edits, you'll notice that your ICE driving road mates aren't any better off.
especially when I drive an 1800lb all Aluminum gas car with a 1.0 3cyl and manual transmission averaging 70mpg
What car would that be? I pulled up a list of cars you can still buy with a manual transmission but nothing I found was even close to 70mpg.
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "phob (Score:5, Interesting)
Faster charging is not much of a draw for batteries. Many cars can recover 80% of their range in 20-30 minutes, and when the range is hundreds of kilometres the human passengers need more time than that to take a break.
Most people will just accept very occasionally waiting an extra 10 minutes to charge, rather than paying thousands extra for more range or faster charging.
Manufacturers are currently able to charge a premium because people new to EVs vastly over-estimate distances and their charging needs, so insist that they require 500km and 20 minute recharge times. Once they get to buying their second EV they will be much less willing to pay for miniscule time savings.
Re: (Score:3)
Most people will just accept very occasionally waiting an extra 10 minutes to charge
Good as well. Most people should stop the insanity of attempting long distance road trips with minimal breaks. Basically every EV car on the market can drive well over 2 hours on a single charge. That's the maximum recommended time before you should be taking a 15min break anyway. Beyond that there's ample research that your alertness suffers.
Pull in at a charging station. Go inside, take a piss, maybe grab a snack or a coffee. Stretch your legs, and off you go with your almost fully charged car again.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
The extra 20 mins you spend charging a few times a year is greatly outweighed by the dozens of times you *don't* need to spend 10-15 minutes driving to a gas station and refuelling - because you already recharged your EV at home, while you slept.
Then there's the time saved - and money & convenience - by the much lower maintenance [myev.com] required for mechanically-simple EVs - no need for tune-ups, spark plugs, drive belts, oil changes, coolant flushes, air filters etc. Even brake pads last much longer with rege
Re: (Score:2)
I guess it's easy for Europeans to forget that the US still like the Wild West, with roaming gangs out outlaws sticking up EV chargers.
Re: (Score:2)
Those journeys sounds absolutely awful. Can't imagine ever wanting to do them. How come you had to?
Re: (Score:2)
First gen Honda Insight.
I used to have one and I averaged right at 70mpg over 40k miles I tracked it closely.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
And we all know that gas stations sprung up from the earth like the trees and have always been here and will always be here.
the only reason there are 100k gas stations is the demand was there to build them. As more EV's are sold more chargers will be built o meet demand, there is money to be made.
Also no practical reason in the future tow trucks wouldn't carry extra charging capacity or service calls or cars themselves could do car-to-car emergency charging. this is an argument of "problems now, they will
Re: (Score:2)
The edge cases are just that, edge cases.
But are they the niche or do most people who are buying new cars have edge use cases? If they are niche then the market for gasoline cars is a niche market and there's not really any issue. If the assumptions about the "average commuter" hold then all the "average commuters" will just buy the same car with the same fuel type because they all have the same needs and no edge cases, but most often people have different cars because they have different requirements and some of those requirements are affected by
Re: (Score:2)
From a European perspective, it's so weird to see this argument still being endlessly played out among US slashdotters. Over here, the transition is well underway, with a fifth of new UK car sales being EVs.
The large numbers of EV buyers are just not worried about those edge cases. They're more focused on the advantages of charging at home overnight, linear and instantly responsive acceleration, silence, lack of vibration, etc.
Of course, there's still plenty of ICE buyers who *are* worried about range, edge
Re: (Score:2)
The large numbers of EV buyers are just not worried about those edge cases.
Yeah like I said if they don't affect you and you can afford it then why wouldn't you? If the edge cases are a niche in whatever market you're looking at then ICEVs are a niche product serving that niche market.
Re: (Score:2)
Yep. But it's also about trade-offs of convenience that consumers will make, especially as they become more familiar with the products.
Product A: pro is 5 minutes to fill up and pay, but con is that I can't do that at home
Product B: pro is I can do almost all charging at home, but con is that sometimes I'll have to wait
Obvs if I absolutely cannot ever afford to wait more than five minutes, Product B isn't going to cut the mustard, and I'll be part of the ICE-only niche. But many consumers will not have a *n
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "phob (Score:4, Informative)
wanted something that can seat about eight people
Great, maybe he's not ready for an EV today. In 5 years he probably iwll find what he needs.
buying 4WD trucks so they aren't snowed into their homes wondering if they can get out for food, fuel, and perhaps an emergency trip to a hospital or something.
Cool, if you live the snow belt of America maybe you don't buy an EV today, but in 5 years you will probably find what you need. People in the southern or coastal US don't share that concern to the same degree.
I don't see how people can really make an argument against the internal combustion engine based on maintenance.
Easy, mile for mile they will require more repairs than an EV. There are far too many moving parts and systems that EVs eliminate. A huge failure point on ICE cars are emissions and EVAP systems, all gone in an EV. No 8-12 speed transmissions to meet mileage goals, no GDI and it's carbon buildup issues, no exhaust systems, no oil to maintain. ICE cars have gotten way better in reliability but they will always be less reliable than an EV.
There are also practical reasons that a tow truck isn't going to carry extra batteries for charging up dead cars. There are weight limits on vehicles
Weight limit for tractor trailers is 80k lbs. Tow trucks today are typically less than 15k lbs, plenty of overhead, when the need is there we will adapt the laws to fit. Only thing stopping it is cost of batteries, and again, check back in 5-10 years on that. There will be demand, supply will come to meet it.
Re: (Score:2)
Hell, why not just have a 240v generator on the tow truck engine... 15 minutes of L2 charging at 19.2kw should get you about 4.5kwh, enough to drive 15 miles. Heck, you could get 50kw for faster hvdc charging off a PTO.
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "pho (Score:2)
Also a great idea. We're going to be using diesel for gensets and heavy vehicles for awhile still, tow drivers will adapt to respond to "no charge calls".
Re: (Score:3)
FYI, an EV likely has far better traction in snow and ice than practically any other car out there due to instantly available and infinitely variable torque to each wheel if the motors are designed properly, as well as far better weight distribution. Given proper traction devices (I mean, you are worried about snow and ice when buying the car, so spend $100 on tire chains) you will probably have a better setup than most real 4WD vehicles with open differentials, which is the vast majority of 4WD vehicles u
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I don't see how people can really make an argument against the internal combustion engine based on maintenance. There's no concern about maintenance. I suspect many people are like myself in that they have their vehicle in for maintenance once per year for an oil change, and every 3 to 5 years a new starter battery. For a lot of people that's a trip to the shopping mall, something they do anyway, but they vary from their usual shopping routine by the trip beginning and ending at the automotive service desk.
Yeah, until you have a major service at 30k, 60k, or 90k miles. That's when you get the gearbox flush and refills that require fluids that cost $30 a litre and require 6+ litres, water pump replacement that can require hours of labor, timing chain / belt replacements that require hours of labor, etc. that add up to thousands of dollars depending on the car. And if you don't do them, you ruin drivetrain components that will absolutely cost you thousands of dollars to replace and leave you stranded on the s
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
you'll probably shit yourself after seeing the state of some cars that
Re: (Score:2)
EV trucks are fine for bad weather etc, they are mostly AWD.
The maintenance argument is definitely important as the majority of people do not do their own servicing so they are forced into a continually expensive service cycle, even people who can do their own servicing are finding it more difficult to do with the more on mode
Re: (Score:2)
gas-powered cars are much more practical.
but i notice you didnt make a case against any of my points to the contrary.
Re: (Score:3)
And you forgot that a gasoline-powered car can pull into any of 100,000+ gas stations
When automobiles started filling the roads 110 years ago there were very few gas stations, planning a trip required having a printed gas station guide. But hay was everywhere. This great horse advantage did not seem to hold the car back much, the stations got built.
It is much easier to put in charging spots which can be installed anywhere where you can park a car. Literally. Much easier that the inherent zoning problems of installing huge tanks of toxic volatile flammable liquid chemicals.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
I'll see your 100k gas stations, and raise you several billion electrical outlets deployed throughout modern society. You know, including every single camp site with RV hookups.
What was your point again?
Re: (Score:3)
This is just not the right mental model. Most people (70%+) will do most charging (99%+) at home. My EV has a 240 mile range. I've not charged it anywhere besides home this year. Tomorrow, I visit my parents in Manchester, a 200 mile drive away. If they had an EV charger at home, for sure I'd ask them to plug in overnight before I drive back. They don't yet -- so I'll just use a charger in a local car park instead. They live in a boring suburb a few miles out of the city centre, but there's three public cha
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "pho (Score:2)
That's moving the goalposts. The issue is what happens if you're stuck in traffic for many hours and your EV battery is almost almost dead. Replace "EV battery" with "ICE gas tank" and you have the same problem.
Also, thanks for the links about EV's exploding. It's sure a good thing ICE vehicles and gas filling stations never explo.... oh wait:
https://www.cbsnews.com/baltim... [cbsnews.com]
https://electrek.co/2022/01/12... [electrek.co]
https://www.fox4now.com/collie... [fox4now.com]
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news... [msn.com]
Re: (Score:3)
Yes, and alsoL: being stuck in a traffic jam in an EV is much better than being stuck in an ICE car. There's no noise, vibration or smell, and you use barely any power because you're not moving. Heat pump draws maybe 1kW, so 2% per hour on my car. Lights, radio, wipers -- negligible.
Re: (Score:2)
Right, because plug-in hybrid vehicles are not a thing.
The ICE is going to be with us for a while, don't go making funeral arrangements yet. I don't know of anyone with an oil refinery in their garage either, but that's not the point. I know of people that have cars but no garage, how are they expected to charge their car? With a plug-in hybrid they can run on gasoline while at home, then use EV chargers on long trips. This assumes the chargers are conveniently places along the route, and that is the as
Re: (Score:2)
I know of people that have cars but no garage, how are they expected to charge their car?
You know that outdoor-rated EV chargers have been a thing for years, right? Like, literally all of them?
You have a little bit of a point for apartment complexes, especially with shitty land owners that just want to milk their tenants of every last dime without ever adding amenities, but that's what moving trucks are for. Landlords that get requests for EV chargers from their tenants will either get the hint, or get empty units if they continue to refuse while EVs just become more common with time.
Re: (Score:2)
So when our neighborhoods power distribution area was hit by a car and taken out leaving us without power for 2 weeks, what does that 100 mile range do for me then?
It gives you more than enough range to get your car to a public or commercial charging station. Or anywhere else that still has electricity. You know, just like if you have an ICE car and needed to go to the fuel station, but your favorite fill-up station doesn't have electricity and can't pump fuel. Dear god, the inconvenience of having exactly the same situation as you do today!
What about random long traffic jams when I dunno, something like a bridge falls on I75 leaving people stuck in 95 degree heat for 4 hours unable to get off the freeway or "charge". What if they were 80 miles into that range?
What would you do in that situation with an ICE car running low on fuel? My guess is "put the windows down and turn off the i
Re: (Score:2)
What about random long traffic jams when I dunno, something like a bridge falls on I75 leaving people stuck in 95 degree heat for 4 hours unable to get off the freeway or "charge". What if they were 80 miles into that range?
What if your gasoline indicator was in the red when it happened?
You might have been planning to fill with gas up two miles down the road, then, boom!.
Re: (Score:2)
What about random long traffic jams when I dunno, something like a bridge falls on I75 leaving people stuck in 95 degree heat for 4 hours unable to get off the freeway or "charge". What if they were 80 miles into that range?
What about war breaking out in the Middle East and oil supplies drying up? What about a giant asteroid hitting all the oil pipelines? What about a zombie apocalypse? Any of those could happen at any moment, but since I can hook up solar cells to charge my EV while using my boomstick to fight off hordes of flesh-eating undead while you're being devoured by zombies because you've run out of gas, an EV clearly beats internal-combustion transport in the case of unexpected events.
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "phob (Score:4, Insightful)
If this was the early 20th century one could make the same argument about petrol versus my horse only needing some grain to continue operating.
We solved that problem because it's just a matter of building the infrastructure. There is no technical reason we can't install more chargers, it's just a matter of building and installing them, just like the number of gas station exploded once people were buying cars.
Lot's of EVs mean money to be made selling charging, the demand will be filled.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, once the infrastructure is built and is ubiquitous even in less urban areas, then maybe a dislike for EVs could be classed as a phobia. For now it is not.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
And in the early 20th century, one would be right.
and here we are 100 years later all riding horses still.
the fact that you danced around my entire argument and in the process conceded yours only to make an entirely different one shows me you don't actually believe this. you just really want to avoid the fact that your preconceived bias against anything "green" might have been wrong.
Re: (Score:2)
and here we are 100 years later all riding horses still.
Yep, it's amazing how many horses I still see hitched up in my company's parking lot every morning.
Re: (Score:2)
What in the world makes you think that multi-year billion dollar highway and train infrastructure projects have any bearing on building out EV charging? You're comparing public works projects, some of which are massive 11-figure boondoggles to an existing convenience store adding chargers in their parking lot for orders of magnitude less investment capital, and an actual return on that investment in a single-digit number of years.
Which is why all existing EV chargers are already in place - it's a positive
Re: (Score:3)
How long did that transition take? It took decades. Depending on where someone draws the boundary lines it could be said to take centuries.
Yes, the transition to gas powered cars began with the Newton's discovery of his three laws of motion in 1687, and we still haven't really adequately supplied the infrastructure for fueling gas power cars, yet. Probably not for another 50 years, if then, so about four centuries. Or maybe the transition to gas powered cars "could be said" to not be complete until the very last gas pump is installed somewhere in the world in the next century.
Of course drawing the boundary lines where they make some sort of ac
Re: I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "phob (Score:4, Informative)
Please point out any commercial entity offering a service today where you can go fill your car with "carbon neutral fuels" on a regular basis at any price. Any at all. Or, please point to any large-scale industrial source for "carbon-neutral fuels" that is capable of scaling up and making any statistically significant contribution to transportation.
Meanwhile, I can point several different EV charging networks that are widely available, today, which can be used with vehicles that are widely available, today. And cheaper than traditional transportation fuel.
Why should I place bets on "carbon neutral fuels" when EV charging is doing so well, with actual evidence to back the claim unlike yours? Don't you think that if "carbon neutral fuels" were a thing that was even remotely economical in the near term, we'd be seeing a lot of investment in it rather than begging OPEC+ to keep output up instead of cutting output to protect prices?
After all, I hear there's never been any interest in coming up with an alternative fuel that would allow hundreds of millions of cars to stay on the road with zero behavior changes, and zero distribution network build-out. You've been going on about synfuel for a long time around here, and it's just as much of a pipe dream today as it was a year or more ago. It is more expensive than traditional fuel, and nobody can produce it at a scale that even remotely matters. It's ethanol 2.0. It's as much of a workable solution as "clean coal" - it's an answer to a question nobody asked.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Tell us you have no experience with EVs, without telling us you have no experience with EVs.
Re: (Score:2)
Aha, those mystical chargers people talk about. Park at a charger here all day, and expect to come back to your Tesla in sentry mode, with fresh footage of someone in a hoodie slashing tires and smashing windows, or just decorating the sides with a key.
I guess "parking cars in public" is a new radical, even dangerous. concept where you live. Prior to that nobody ever parked cars thus the sheer novelty of seeing a motionless, unoccupied car in public attracts all manner of vandals which law enforcement is powerless to deal with.
Possibly this "here" is a place inside you head.
No intersection with reality. (Score:2)
I've been driving an EV since 2019. I've made several cross-continent journeys and I've had to wait for a spot at a public charger a total of once, for a total of 15 minutes. What a terrible inconvenience, because in the history of motorized transport, nobody ever had to wait that long for a spot at a fuel pump, right?
Your FUD doesn't intersect with easily observable reality. Yes, there are probably some charging stations that end up with people waiting at them, but that's why we're building lots more ch
Re: (Score:2)
while at the same time you mention a pretty valid shortcoming of existing battery solutions.
Would it be easier for people to accept the label of fucking procrastinator instead, because I know far too many Gen-ignorant who treat their phone battery and gas tank the same; drain it down to zero percent every time and never plan ahead.
Too harsh? It'll be easier to accept this reality than continuing to hear consumers whine and bitch about slow recharge times in their 1500-mile range EV a decade from now.
Blame the customer (Score:4, Funny)
Geek marketing technique.
If my product doesn't meet your needs, it is because you are a whining, bitchy and lazy ingrate of its marvelous tech.
Re: (Score:2)
Geek marketing technique.
If my product doesn't meet your needs, it is because you are a whining, bitchy and lazy ingrate of its marvelous tech.
The "Top 10 worst passwords" list hasn't changed in literally decades regardless of increased risk and harm, proving ignorance hasn't changed. Neither has human procrastination. In fact, tech has made it worse.
Sorry, but your "marketing" arguments don't apply so much anymore. I wish I was more wrong about users today. But sadly, even you know I'm right. We'll eventually make a 3000-mile EV, and STILL have whiny lazy procrastinators bitching about dead batteries and recharge times.
Really? (Score:2)
I doubt it's helpful to accuse people of "phobia" while at the same time you mention a pretty valid shortcoming of existing battery solutions.
Translation: "How dare you accurately describe me!"
Re: (Score:2)
The main shortcoming is the price... not sure if that's what you were referring to. But yeah, phobia is a weird way to put it.
Re: (Score:2)
a pretty valid shortcoming
The shortcoming is only valid for people suffering from a specific phobia. Unless you drive professionally the fear or anxiety of range is very much irrational thinking these days.
"Oh but thegarbz, I do road trips to my meemaws!!!!" Yeah go take a break at a charging station like a normal person.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"homophobia" and "transphobia" are simply people who don't like gays or transsexuals
sure, half correct. colloquial ve definitional
fear has no part in it.
it absolutely does to a degree, if only usually fear borne out of ignorance. people who never met a gay or trans person in their lives is probably in a bit of fear which usually subsides once they actually you know, spend time with either one and see they are still just people.
Re: (Score:2)
There's obviously lots of research being done (Score:4, Insightful)
Hopefully at least a few of the many, many university press releases that have been posted here over the past few years will eventually lead to actual improvements in the batteries made available to us.
Re:There's obviously lots of research being done (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem with gas vehilcles... (Score:3)
The problem with these gas-powered carriages is you have to find oil, refine oil, ship gas; an evaporating explosive liquid thinner than water. Every step involving toxins and massive waste and infrastructure around the world. We need oil for industrial uses, we won't have enough to replace every horse! Plus you need to refuel at special stations that must be located every few miles all over the USA! That is unrealistic and way too expensive to ever replace the horse!
I have doubts we will affordably solv
Re: (Score:2)
All of your examples, except for the rechargeable car, have batteries with a few grams of lithium in them. For a Tesla it is somewhere around 5 to 10 kilograms. That's a problem for the future of BEVs.
Good that you agree with the OPs point - that there have actually been radical advance in battery technology over the years, which still continues.
The doom-mongering about lithium supply follows every resource that ramped up dramatically over decades since the start of the Industrial Revolution. How could we possibly fuel 25 million cars in 1930 when oil production is a tiny fraction of what is needed in 1910? Somehow the production got ramped up so that oil companies could make money.
Given there the USGS c
Re: (Score:2)
Plus lithium can be reused, while fossil fuels cannot
Re: (Score:2)
the beauty of lithium etc is that the batteries are recyclable
"Redwood Materials CEO and former Tesla CTO JB Straubel has told a US Senate hearing that his company already receives approximately 6GWh of end-of-life lithium-ion batteries for recycling annually."
Re: (Score:2)
Hopefully at least a few of the many, many university press releases that have been posted here over the past few years will eventually lead to actual improvements in the batteries made available to us.
Good news for you. ... Well actually good news for everyone except you. Batteries have improved a lot and the modern lithium battery (or other chemistries we have available) are nothing like the batteries of old many thanks university (and private) research into the topics which have led to higher densities, higher ampacity, longer life, safer designs, etc.
Why not good news for you? Well unfortunately it means you're ignorant. And since you've posted the same comment in every Slashdot article and had it's p
Wins on the name (Score:2)
Better Goal: Longer Lasting Battery (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
1. Improvements are happening in both areas
2. Batteries last ages. Here's the calculations once again. I have a Renault Zoe, 52kWh battery, range 245 miles. Battery warranty is 8 years for 80% (ie they give me a new one if it goes below 200 miles range before 2028, I bought in 2020). Am I going to need to use that warranty? Nope. Due to the fancy clever battery management system, the battery lasts somewhere around 750 full discharge cycles before reaching 80% of charge. That's 750 * c230 miles = 172,500 mil
Re:Musk called in "like salt on a salad" (Score:5, Insightful)
Given the advances in synthesized fuels and the seeming dead end reached on batteries I expect to see the BEV fall out of favor.
In years past i would be right on board with this. Synthetic fuels or cellulosic ethanol would have been absolutely great to easily transition from ICE engines but fact is this stuff has stalled pretty hard in the past 10 years. Despite everyone saying "only announcements, no progress" with regard to batteries on every metric have imporved incrementally and consistently for the past 20 years wheras hydrogen, ethanols and synthetics are largely stil left the labs and have continued issues with scaling production.
There are 10 large battery factories going online in the US alone in the next 3 years and even more after that by 2030. Car manufacturers clearly see BEV as the future, is your claim every one of them have done their analysius wrong and all those factories will end up idling due to lack of materials? No car company is betting their future on synthetics for passenger vehichles, not a single one as far as i can tell. How many large scale synthetic fuel factories are coming online in the next 5 years?
Re: (Score:2)
A certain European regime in the 1940's was already capable of turning coal into fuel for their machinery.
That process was very costly in terms of energy, time and quantity. As in a lot of energy had to be spent, the process took a long time and lots of coal needed to spent in order to get fuel of subpar quality, messing up engines that were modified to handle this fuel.
It was a pipe dream then, it hasn't improved significantly since.
Here, in current day South-America, you can get alcohol (from sugar cane)
Re: (Score:2)
Synthetic fuels or cellulosic ethanol would have been absolutely great to easily transition from ICE engines but fact is this stuff has stalled pretty hard in the past 10 years.
With good reason. The oil companies themselves see the writing on the wall for ICE cars. Pretty much all synthetic fuels or bio fuels are currently focused at fixing industry problems where batteries aren't suitable. Lots of R&D in synthetic air fuel, lots of R&D focused on reducing the carbon load of bunker / shipping diesel, lots of R&D in methane capture for renewable natural gas.
Re: (Score:2)
That is a very bad analogy. If I don't have salt on my salad I can still eat a salad. If there is no lithium or cobalt in the battery then it is not a battery. All the energy in that battery is in the chemical bonds between the lithium and cobalt, the rest is just there to provide the structure and electrical conduction.
Actually, you don't need the cobalt - there's LiIon batteries that don't use it: LiFePo4, or "Lithium Ferrous Phosphate", just for one.
https://thenextweb.com/news/th... [thenextweb.com]
Now, obviously, you need the lithium to have a lithium battery, but there are still others out there - NiCd, NiMH, etc...
But then, we can scale up lithium extraction fairly easily. Note "fairly". Odds are the prices are going to rise a bit, in order to justify all the new infrastructure, going after less pure sources, etc... It's also goi
Re: (Score:2)
It fascinates me that the people who claim peak oil is silly because we'll just find more are the same people who wring their hands that oh noes, we're going to run out of lithium because the currently operating mines can't meet our demand.
An absolutely enormous amount of lithium is economical to harvest from seawater at prices only a bit above today's, and that could likely be brought down with a bit of development.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, you don't need the cobalt - there's LiIon batteries that don't use it: LiFePo4, or "Lithium Ferrous Phosphate", just for one.
"Lithium iron phosphate batteries do face one major disadvantage in cold weather; they can't be charged at freezing temperatures. You should never attempt to charge a LiFePO4 battery if the temperature is below 32F. Doing so can cause lithium plating, a process that lowers your battery's capacity and can cause short circuits, damaging it irreparably."
So much for that battery
Re: (Score:3)
You can't charge any of the popular lithium chemistries below freezing. When the vehicle is plugged in, however, you've got plenty of power available to heat the batteries to above freezing, and then you can charge them — and simply charging them will keep them warm thereafter. Around half of the Tesla vehicles sold in the USA have LFP batteries.
Freezing batteries (Score:2)
Might be a good idea to post the source on that quote. I think it's this: https://www.batteriesplus.com/... [batteriesplus.com]
[quote]In order to charge a LiFePO4 battery in below-freezing conditions, you need to raise its temperature first. The easiest way to do this is to simply move the battery to a warmer environment. You can also try wrapping the battery in a thermal blanket, or placing it near a small space heater.[/quote]
This reveals that they aren't talking about car batteries using it. If you're charging a Tesla EV
Re: (Score:2)
NiMH, etc...
Have the blocking patents [wikipedia.org] on this technology expired yet? Or is some oil company still sitting on it?
Re: (Score:2)
Given that the link shows the patents given in 1982, sold in 2000, it's now late 2022, and patents are only good for 15 or 20 years depending upon type, Yeah, they've expired.
Energy Production In Addition to Energy Storage (Score:2)
"We need solutions on producing energy."
A prototype wind turbine with a swept area very nearly the area of a 10 acre field just set a new record for energy production in 24 hours. I'd say that energy production research is being conducted, alright.
Re: (Score:2)
water battery
Where do you get garden hoses that are hundreds of miles long?
Re: (Score:3)
Now only if there were some government incentive to build electrical infrastructure [doe.gov]. Or some kind of incentive to increase the speed at which we deploy electric vehicle charging [dot.gov] - a profitable business even for big oil [reuters.com] that on it's own is expanding at an increasing rate year-over-year [iea.org] without subsidy.
Also the skimming of the rest of your post seems to be equally total nonsense:
- What continent-wide storms have we experienced lately? Spoiler alert: not a single one in observable history, and nothing even
Re: (Score:2)
A major hurricane WILL tear the shit out of any wind or solar farm where current generating stations are quite robust and consolidated (many MWs or GWs from one place make it easier to focus on repairs).
Not necessarily. Babcock Ranch in Florida has made it through two direct hits so far without damage, one from a Category 3 storm, and one from a Category 4. The problem with restoring power after hurricanes isn't on the production side, it's fixing all of the power lines and distribution stations that get
Re: (Score:2)
And when cars were first taking off, there was no refueling infrastructure, or even road infrastructure.
Hell, there was no *reason* to have cars. Manufacturers had to *invent* reasons. Hence things like Michelin, the tire company, invented the world's most famous restaurant rating system.
The infrastructure will catch up.