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Power Transportation

Tesla Considers Building a Lithium Refinery for EV Batteries in Texas (reuters.com) 86

China remains the world's largest lithium processor, reports Reuters. But Tesla "is considering setting up a lithium refinery on the gulf coast of Texas, as it looks to secure supply of the key component used in batteries amid surging demand for electric vehicles." The potential battery-grade lithium hydroxide refining facility, which Tesla touted as the first of its kind in North America, will process "raw ore material into a usable state for battery production", the company said in an application filed with the Texas Comptroller's Office.

A decision to invest in Texas will also be based on the ability to obtain relief on local property taxes, Tesla said.

Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk has previously said that Tesla may have to enter the mining and refining industry directly at scale as lithium prices surge. Musk has also been vocal about the need for more players in the lithium refining industry.... Securing a steady supply of battery components is seen critical for Tesla as it faces fierce competition in the fast-growing market for electric cars. If approved, construction could begin in the fourth quarter of 2022 and would reach commercial production by the end of 2024, Tesla said in the application dated Aug. 22....

If Tesla's plan goes ahead, the carmaker could become the first in the sector to invest directly in lithium refining as automakers scramble to stitch up deals with miners and refiners.

In addition, the article points out, Tesla "also said it would use less hazardous reagents and create usable byproducts, compared with the conventional process."
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Tesla Considers Building a Lithium Refinery for EV Batteries in Texas

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  • Or (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Whateverthisis ( 7004192 ) on Sunday September 11, 2022 @07:06AM (#62871813)
    Or move to Al-ion batteries. Aluminum is way more abundant and cheaper.

    And yes, I know, the anode is an issue that hasn't been worked out. I happen to know for a fact that Tesla is working on this, so they would have moved if it was an easy fix. But at the scale they use lithium, the supply chain was never going to support the volume necessary for electric cars, and even developing their own refinery won't change that.

    • I'm all for any alternative battery chemistries, but in the 10 years since Tesla's come out with the Model S, the car industry as a whole has Tesla and some fringe models from major car makers that are completely electric and then some variations on the hybrid theme, including some plug ins.

      There's no way to continue to continue expanding electric vehicles with new battery chemistries when most car makers are still kind of figuring out how to produce cars using the pretty much proven lithium chemistries.

      I'd

  • Ore? Fuck You, Elon (Score:3, Informative)

    by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Sunday September 11, 2022 @07:21AM (#62871823) Homepage Journal

    The potential battery-grade lithium hydroxide refining facility, which Tesla touted as the first of its kind in North America, will process "raw ore material into a usable state for battery production"

    Ore? There is only one environmentally safe way to extract lithium deposits, and that is brining. And it doesn't produce "ore" (a naturally occurring solid material from which a metal or valuable mineral can be profitably extracted) but rather pure lithium that has to be refined. You get "ore" from open pit mines.

    Elon is planning for more open pit mining of lithium. He is willing to rape the Earth to any extent to get to Mars.

    • Huh? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Gravis Zero ( 934156 )

      There is only one environmentally safe way to extract lithium deposits, and that is brining.

      You're not wrong but it's also exceptionally slow. This is a HUGE problem because of the whole climate change thing but if we had forty extra years then sure, stick with brine based extraction.

      Elon is planning for more open pit mining of lithium.

      Or maybe he's just planning to refine the stuff from Australia, the world's primary source of extracted lithium.

      He is willing to rape the Earth to any extent to get to Mars.

      How are these two things even connected?

      • Re:Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Sunday September 11, 2022 @07:44AM (#62871859) Homepage Journal

        Elon is planning for more open pit mining of lithium.

        Or maybe he's just planning to refine the stuff from Australia, the world's primary source of extracted lithium.

        The world's primary source of open pit mining extracted lithium, which is already being processed as it is extracted. QED, more open pit mining will occur to feed Elon's plant regardless of whether or not it comes from Oz. So that argument is obviously foolish right on its face.

        He is willing to rape the Earth to any extent to get to Mars.

        How are these two things even connected?

        I applaud you for getting so far without knowing anything about Elon Musk, but I wonder why you think you're qualified to post in this discussion.

        • Re:Huh? (Score:5, Interesting)

          by hdyoung ( 5182939 ) on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:02AM (#62871975)
          This is going to get me downmodded, but we shouldnt delay the worlds energy transition because a few mountains will get wrecked by mining. We’re trying to prevent world-wide civilization-ending climate change, and sacrificing a local mountain or three to get the lithium we need is a no-brainer. I consider myself an environmentalist, but green types suffer from a BAD case of “it must be perfect or it’s evil” and the world just doesn’t work that way. If we keep shoving this problem down the road, entire continents are going to be in trouble.

          The world needs about a million tons of lithium to make the energy transition. The worlds reserves are 14 million. Small price to pay. If Bolivia wants to be a pissy socialist and hold back their reserves, Australia could provide everything the world needs. Mine a few mountains into the ground. The local damage will be bad. And the world might be able to prevent entire civilizations from having to uproot and migrate.
          • This is going to get me downmodded, but we shouldnt delay the worlds energy transition because a few mountains will get wrecked by mining.

            False dichotomy. We should ramp up ecologically friendly mining methods in places where we know they are viable before exploiting more polluting sources.

            • Re:Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)

              by hdyoung ( 5182939 ) on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:53AM (#62872135)
              You're absolutely right. We should call up the guy who knows how to mine 5 million tons of lithium ore in an "ecologically friendly" way. What's his name again? ?

              Oh, right. Michael McDoesntExist.

              Again, this is a problem with environmentalists. It's gotta be perfect or it's evil. I'm absolutely NOT a fan of mining and the damage it causes, but I'd far prefer to see a few mountains in rural Australia leveled as opposed to delaying electrification for decades. While we talk about it, we're pouring greenhouse gases into the atmosphere and the effects are getting better understood every year. And the new is all bad.

              As I've said before, I don't actually have much expectation that we'll mitigate this. As a species, we blew it on this problem. The scientists and engineers need to be ready with geoengineering solutions because we're going to need it
            • Re:Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)

              by Gravis Zero ( 934156 ) on Sunday September 11, 2022 @01:00PM (#62872325)

              We should ramp up ecologically friendly mining methods in places where we know they are viable before exploiting more polluting sources.

              There is a distinct problem with this: ownership and time.
              * Locations where ecologically friendly methods work are owned by different people who have different goals.
              * Ecologically friendly extraction methods are much slower. As a result, ultimately more pollution is released into the atmosphere.

              I am in favor of environmentalism but you pull your hand out of the fire as fast as you can, not slowly while being careful to avoid ripping your sleeve.

            • Translation: You want lithium to magically be mined with no impact is such quantities that you can have every car on Earth be electric in ten years,

              Only problem is, not one aspect of you plan is possible.

              In fact even if we go the most abusive route to extract lithium (and other minerals no-one is even talking about yet) possible we are probably way more than 50 years from every car being electric.

              Fact is, if you wanna save the Earth via electric cars you are going to have to do a lot of damage first.

            • False dichotomy. We should ramp up ecologically friendly mining methods in places where we know they are viable before exploiting more polluting sources.

              Ecologically friendly mining methods are viable everywhere for the right (high) price, but you think nuclear is too expensive (and slow), so you should not be surprised the most ecologically friendly (and slow) methods will not be used for mining either.

          • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            As usual it's a bit more complicated than just good/bad.

            Strip mining is disruptive and emits CO2, but there are many different ways of doing it, some better than others. And when you have finished strip mining an area there is the question of what you do with it. Responsible mining operations would plan to fill the site in as much as possible and re-wild it, or at least turn it into some kind of nature reserve.

            Come to that, there's the question of what you do before you start strip mining. It's possible to

      • Re:Huh? (Score:4, Informative)

        by MacMann ( 7518492 ) on Sunday September 11, 2022 @08:31AM (#62871907)

        How are these two things even connected?

        Elon Musk has been using profits from Tesla to fund SpaceX. Or rather he's been using capital that's been created from Tesla to back up the loans for getting the capital to fund SpaceX. It appears that Starlink is mostly an effort to get funds for more rockets, the ability to get internet globally is just a nice side-effect.

        Or maybe he's just planning to refine the stuff from Australia, the world's primary source of extracted lithium.

        You mean from open pit mines in Australia?

        A quick internet search tells me that much of the lithium out of Australia comes from brine extraction, but not all of it. There's open pit lithium mines in Australia. There's likely to be more open pit lithium mines in Australia if Tesla opens a lithium refinery.

        • There's likely to be more open pit lithium mines in Australia if Tesla opens a lithium refinery.

          Well, for once we are in perfect agreement, even if you haven't quite realized that's what I was saying; if not more mines, then at least more production at the same sites. Most of the world's lithium production comes from open pit mines in Australia. Most of the world's lithium deposits (estimated 53%) are located in salyars in Chile. Some of those are being brined in ecologically friendly ways now. Some of them are also being brined in not so ecologically friendly ways, so it's not an automatic victory. T

        • A quick internet search tells me that much of the lithium out of Australia comes from brine extraction, but not all of it.

          Sure... but Australia’s primary lithium export is spodumene. https://smallcaps.com.au/lithi... [smallcaps.com.au]

          There's likely to be more open pit lithium mines in Australia if Tesla opens a lithium refinery.

          What you're missing is that mining in Australia is expanding with or without Tesla.

      • by Monoman ( 8745 )

        In the last few months I saw an interview with Elon where he stated that the problem with the lithium supply chain is refinement. He indicated that lithium is pretty much available in many places around the globe but only a few areas have refineries. He also indicated Tesla had no intentions of getting into mining unless they really needed to.

        I guess he decided they really needed to make their own refinery.

    • by Mspangler ( 770054 ) on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:18AM (#62872001)

      Brine extraction produces large quantities of brine. After extracting the lithium everything else is still in your salt water. If you pump it back into the ground in the same layer it came from you will eventually dilute your input stream. If you put it into a different layer, that is essentially fracking and it may come out where you didn't expect.

      And you do not get pure lithium out of the brine, you get one of its salts. LiCl or Li2CO3 most likely. So they still need refining to lithium metal.

      One last quibble, you also get ore from underground mines as well.

      Where you are probably right is that the environmental damage from lithium mining will likely be much less than that from the copper mining required to actually make use of the lithium.

      I won't get into the politics of the current administration demanding electrification of the entire economy while blocking the permitting of new copper mines. And if you are about to start going on about how we should use aluminum instead then you just might want to look up how you make aluminum and what they do with "red mud", as well as bauxite resources within the US.

      • And if you are about to start going on about how we should use aluminum instead then you just might want to look up how you make aluminum and what they do with "red mud", as well as bauxite resources within the US.

        It is certainly a big problem, it's one of those things we know how to solve but don't bother. All it really takes is proper settling ponds, with liners. We buy Aluminum (often in finished products) from China which now mines bauxite in Africa, where they can still get away with polluting. But if you compare the ecological impact of steel, the only place aluminum loses out by comparison is in its greater initial energy consumption — and that can be mitigated by increased renewables production, which n

    • The potential battery-grade lithium hydroxide refining facility, which Tesla touted as the first of its kind in North America, will process "raw ore material into a usable state for battery production"

      Ore? There is only one environmentally safe way to extract lithium deposits, and that is brining. And it doesn't produce "ore" (a naturally occurring solid material from which a metal or valuable mineral can be profitably extracted) but rather pure lithium that has to be refined. You get "ore" from open pit mines.

      Elon is planning for more open pit mining of lithium. He is willing to rape the Earth to any extent to get to Mars.

      A) Raping the earth is OK as long as you do it in the name of capitalism and the free market, or are you some kind of the hugger?
      B) Elon can go to Mars, the sooner the better just as long as he stays there.

    • Elon is planning for more open pit mining of lithium. He is willing to rape the Earth to any extent to get to Mars.

      You're giving him too much credit. He is willing to rape the earth to add more billions of dollars to his personal wealth, period.

    • Ore? There is only one environmentally safe way to extract lithium deposits, and that is brining. And it doesn't produce "ore" (a naturally occurring solid material from which a metal or valuable mineral can be profitably extracted) but rather pure lithium that has to be refined.

      Entirely wrong.

      Lithium metal is not stable in the terrestrial environment. There is no mining process that produces pure lithium. All lithium mining is of ores, not of metal. If you're mining it from salt, the ore is a salt-- carbonate, or chloride-- but it's still ore.

    • What does this have to do with Mars?

    • But it's Texas. Is he raping Texas on purpose? Is it ironic? Is it malicious? Is it just evil?
  • Honestly, we need to build a bunch of lithium refineries. Where does the world get their lithium refined? Mostly in China which means they are giving themselves the competitive edge.

  • It takes a lot of raw material to make an EV. Estimates are that it takes 500,000 pounds of the Earth's crust to be mined just for the battery. I've seen some people do the math on how much mining would have to be done for a switch to electric vehicles and it is not trivial.

    We see California mandating EV use in their state, are they going to open up mines in their state also for all the material needed to make these EVs? I doubt it. They will inevitably raise objections to the mining out of concerns for

    • I agree we need nuclear. But synthetic hydrocarbon fuels are never going to be a wide-scale solution. They are horribly inefficient to synthesize. Like, 4 times as energy intensive as current tech, if I recall correctly. Far better to electrify. Battery systems are like 90+ percent efficient once in place(I think). Yes, we can feed the grid with wind, solar, and a hefty amount of nuclear if we’re smart. But electricity is the way to go, even with the problems mining brings.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by MacMann ( 7518492 )

        Where are our electric airplanes? Every time someone claims we can just use electric vehicles instead of hydrocarbon fuels just ask yourself that question. That's just the extreme example, there's far more examples of where batteries will not provide sufficient energy density to be practical. Once we solve the problem of synthesizing fuels for aircraft then it is a relatively small matter of scaling that up so there is enough for every other application.

        The problem with internal combustion engines right

  • by gtall ( 79522 ) on Sunday September 11, 2022 @08:45AM (#62871933)

    Good thinking, Elon. Put a new battery facility on the Texas Gulf Coast, an area known for bad hurricanes.

  • You ever notice (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kpoole55 ( 1102793 ) on Sunday September 11, 2022 @08:57AM (#62871967)

    How many of these wonderful labour producing good for the economy good for the country mega projects start with a request for tax relief from the local agencies? Just another example of how the billionaires and their pet projects are the real welfare addicts in these days.

    • Tesla is a publicly owned company with legal responsibilities to its shareholders. Unless we did something like force a uniform minimum tax nationwide and worldwide to make this impossible, it would be business malpractice to not at least make the request. And they would have to come up with pretty good business reasons for building in a place that doesn't give a break if another one did.
    • If you had a choice to build a billion dollar factory anywhere in the USA then would you not look for the place that offered the lowest operating costs? These tax breaks got to be a thing because the taxes got so high as to be a factor in the decision. Maybe the taxes are just too high in the first place, and then everyone gets a "deal" on the taxes to make the people negotiating the permits believe that they are such awesome negotiators. Kind of like the window sticker price on a car just being a starti

      • Re:You ever notice (Score:4, Interesting)

        by bussdriver ( 620565 ) on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:15AM (#62872171)

        Insignificant Taxes would STILL be a factor for many and it's a popular excuse to extort concessions which is a tired old pattern big corps have been playing localities against each other. The only solution is to out law the perks localities do to bribe the corps to move in. Legit infrastructure benefits more than a single corp and also is a influential factor that is perfectly fine; that is what used to be a bigger influence.

        Tax breaks are corporate welfare; worse it's unfair favoritism because everybody else doesn't get any tax breaks or tax deals and they pick up the costs for the large new neighbor. Indirectly, everybody is paying for the MANY services used by them -- basic infrastructure that if not provided would immediately get them out of consideration. Police, Fire, Roads, Trains, corruption (well, in Texas the heavy corruption nearly always favors those with money so that is appealing to a big corporation,) hell land rights and those basic laws taken for granted are essential for business.

        Tesla should put all their toxic polluting factories like refineries in Texas like the Oil companies have always done. Texans do not fear cancer or mind wrecking the environment so let them... just stop taking my taxes to subsidize that welfare state who can't actually sustain it's own economy.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by MacMann ( 7518492 )

          No corporation can extort tax breaks out of anyone. If the deal is a bad deal then the government can walk away.

          You can't "out law the perks" because those "perks" are set in law in the first place. The people that set the tax rates would have to be the same people that create the "perks". If you remove the "perks" a local government can set by state law then you just have states fighting each other. If the rules are set by the federal government then you just have nations fighting. On top of that you

          • sure they technically have all the power to say no. But in reality we have politicians desperate to tout what jobs they created with deals they can get their name stamped on; we vote for the "job creators" etc. So when big corp says they'll bring in billions and thousands of jobs the politicians fall over themselves for short-term bragging or some real numbers while long term making everybody else pay to subsidize the deal.

            It is an extortion of resident locations where they threaten to leave a place to ren

  • FTA: Musk has also been vocal about the need for more players in the lithium refining industry. "You can't lose. It's licensed to print money,"

    Huh. Wonder why he wants to deprive local government of taxes then (presumably including schools given how American ones are funded)

  • They're gonna jump for this like a hungry fish:

    https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.g... [nih.gov]

    Lithium hydroxide, solution appears as a clear to water-white liquid which may have a pungent odor. Contact may cause severe irritation to skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. It may be toxic by ingestion, inhalation and skin absorption.

    Texas likes hazardous chemicals

    • Unless you put it into water it is just a white powder, or if not grinded to powder gypsum like "rock".

      Of course such a powder would also cause skin irritations as the mineral is alkalic.

      • Ya... and the wind blows on the gulf coast.
        Can you say alkali dust storm? Knew ya could!
        It'll make coal dust look like powered sugar

  • I'm done hearing about the crap that comes out of this clown's mouth. If Tesla was never associated with this buffoon, maybe I would entertain myself and support whatever they do. But I can't, because he makes his cash on taxpayer dollars and is the most childish asshole in public media besides Kanye West.
  • I think maybe one way to deal with lithium battery supply constraints is to consider smaller cars that just need less battery.

    It's often repeated in the arguments about range anxiety that most people don't travel very far in daily commuting. My daily round trip is 12 miles and really I don't think I'd need a range of much more than 60 miles to cover other potential distances I'd actually drive in a day. I know this is not everyone, but it's a lot of people just the same.

    I think small vehicles not much big

    • Bikes are a non-starter for most people in a winter climate, along with a bunch of other infrastructure issues and practicality elements (passenger or cargo capacity, even if that means a second person and groceries).
      That is kind of nonsense. You seem to mix up "sports bikes" with an ordinary bike that has a cargo area, or a basket at the steering handle.
      As long as it does not rain - which is unfortunately now the norm in "winter climate areas" - there is nothing wrong in riding a bike in winter. Actually i

      • Our city has expanded the bike lanes/infrastructure a lot over the last 10 years, but its nearly empty all winter. I just don't see myself commuting 6 miles on a bike when its 20 degrees and the roads have snow and ice on them. Apparently, I'm not alone because I don't see anyone else doing it.

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