Ford Plans to Just Start Selling SUVs Without Some of Their Chips (theverge.com) 165
The Verge reports:
Ford will soon start selling and shipping some Ford Explorers without the chips that power rear air conditioning and heating controls, according to a report from Automotive News. The automaker will instead ship the missing semiconductors to dealers within one year, which they will then install in customers' vehicles after purchase.
Ford spokesperson Said Deep told The Verge that heating and air condition will still be controllable from the front seats, and that customers who choose to purchase a vehicle without the rear controls will receive a price reduction. According to Deep, Ford is doing this as a way to bring new Explorers to customers faster, and that the change is only temporary.
The automaker originally had plans to ship partially-built, undrivable vehicles to dealers last year, but now, the unchipped vehicles will be both driveable and sellable. As pointed out by Automotive News, Ford's decision comes as an attempt to move the partially-built vehicles crowding its factory lots. Last month, hundreds of new Ford Broncos were spotted sitting idly in the snow-covered lots near Ford's Michigan Assembly Plant, all of which await chip-related installations....
Other automakers have also had to make sacrifices due to the chip shortage, with GM dropping wireless charging, HD radios, and a fuel management module that made some pickup trucks operate more efficiently.
Ford spokesperson Said Deep told The Verge that heating and air condition will still be controllable from the front seats, and that customers who choose to purchase a vehicle without the rear controls will receive a price reduction. According to Deep, Ford is doing this as a way to bring new Explorers to customers faster, and that the change is only temporary.
The automaker originally had plans to ship partially-built, undrivable vehicles to dealers last year, but now, the unchipped vehicles will be both driveable and sellable. As pointed out by Automotive News, Ford's decision comes as an attempt to move the partially-built vehicles crowding its factory lots. Last month, hundreds of new Ford Broncos were spotted sitting idly in the snow-covered lots near Ford's Michigan Assembly Plant, all of which await chip-related installations....
Other automakers have also had to make sacrifices due to the chip shortage, with GM dropping wireless charging, HD radios, and a fuel management module that made some pickup trucks operate more efficiently.
The problem of short sighted companies... (Score:2)
Basically the automakers and many other companies panicking and drastically reducing their orders at start of the pandemic and the resulting lowering of production is still felt.
The goal to keep minimal stock at hand and rely on long supply chains will always cause disruptions when something strange happens, but remains unfortunately the favorite of management consultants.
Other companies that have long term supply contracts and long view on things have fared much better.
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Other companies that have long term supply contracts and long view on things have fared much better.
When the boat is late by 6 days, the short-term thinkers are screwed.
When the boat is late by 6 weeks, the long-term thinkers are screwed.
When the boat is late by 6 months, we're all screwed.
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Except plenty of companies with long term supply contracts have suffered massively for it, and in places failed due to them, because demand for their product collapsed but they had long term contracts with suppliers for resources they no longer require so they couldn't cut costs to survive. Obviously in some cases suppliers will vary the contract to keep their customers viable, or because they can't get suppl
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This is not the problem at all. It was arguably the problem in mid 2020 - which is nearly 2 years ago - after the initial end-of-the-world panic around the pandemic had subsided, but it does not explain why the problem is even worse now.
My best guess is that it is hoarding by companies that is feeding in on itself. There is excess end user demand for products, and some suppressed production, but a lot of this could be solved with normal price increases. What has changed though, is everyone is trying to buil
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My best guess is that it is hoarding by companies that is feeding in on itself.
Nail on the head. It's basically Toilet Paper for corporations.
Re: The problem of short sighted companies... (Score:2)
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They didn't just reduce their orders. They *forfeited* their allocated production capacity which was taken up by other customers that needed chips ASAP. Manufacturers of personal computers, parts, and accessories had increased demand due the remote work and remote learn demands. Hindsight being 20/20 maybe the automakers should have worked out an agreement that would ensure their orders would be filled when needed.
Another factor is that automakers heavily use OEMs to outsource many automobile components.
JIT (Score:3)
You keep using that word. I don't think it means would you think it means.
We are long past some temporary disruption in a supply that could have been weathered if the auto companies kept some inventory of parts on hand.
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Excess stock is their 'precious' of things to cut to save $0.05
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Toyota invented it, everyone else followed.
Toyota improved it, almost no one followed.
They realized you do have to stock some things, and you have to have deep relationships with suppliers of the things you don't stock. There's more to successful JIT inventory control than just ordering JIT and crossing fingers.
This is why auto parts chains dominated over independents, they have all kinds of stock across their stores and they share.
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You may have noticed that Toyota and Denso are collaborating with Sony and TSMC to open a new fab in Japan in 2023/2024 (I think?) to make chips presumably for Denso.
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I missed that one, but it makes perfect sense given what Toyota knows and apparently everyone else is just learning.
This is nobody's fault (Score:2)
And no, printing more money to stimulate t
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JIT with zero demand leads to chip manufacturing lines being shut down. It takes more than just a paper contract to keep things moving. Carmakers had to keep having chips made or even stockpiling them to endure the pandemic.
WWWIV (Score:2)
I'm sure there are "reasons", but really??? (Score:2)
Re: I'm sure there are "reasons", but really??? (Score:2)
The problem is mostly VRMs. Theyâ(TM)re a simple little component, but there just arenâ(TM)t enough suppliers.
Even the huge tech companies are struggling to get enough these days.
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Stuff that isn't safety critical still has to outlast the warranty to be viable. Having large numbers of warranty issues is expensive, so they will want to test this code very carefully.
Not that there are alternative microcontrollers available anyway. At the moment anything automotive grade (wider operating temperature range than consumer stuff, obviously quite important for the car's heating system) is unobtainium right now.
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Maybe they should be putting out bounties to suppliers who can step in if this sort of shit happens.
Every single automaker is affected by the lack of chips. Not just American ones. Not just Japanese ones. Not just German ones. You are assuming that all these manufacturers have sat on their butts doing absolutely nothing to alleviate their supply problems. The problem is worldwide not local.
I'm quite certain that the requirements for this subsystem is minimal in terms of function & certification.
And what leads you to this certainty? Are you an automotive engineer that also specializes in safety and reliability? The chips that are generally older as they have been tested for years sometimes a decade old.
Maybe they could even open source the challenge - we need a system that does X, Y & Z from certified components in our inventory, $50,000 prize to the winning entry based on cost, complexity, completeness etc.
And how
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I expect Ford employs a hundred engineers who would have no problem whipping up something that works. The problem is you have to integrate the bodge with the rest of the systems, and support it for the next twenty years.
Simpler to just deliver the kids' air conditioning controls a little late.
Why do you need "chips" to control a heated seat (Score:2)
What's wrong with a relay and a mechanical switch, or in the case of the AC, a rheostat?
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Mechanical systems are more complex and expensive. They could also be more failure prone (at least during the warranty and "average duration of life" for which the manufacturer is forced to provide replacement parts).
Also, mechanical systems can't be "remote started".
In cold mornings (freezing temperatures or less), the "electric seat heating" takes several minutes to "kick in". Yet, a remote could start the engine, internal heating and seat and steering wheel electric heating assuring (at least) a warm sea
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Actually, mechanical systems are less complex and more expensive.
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How is a mechanical system more complex? The relay still needs to exist to direct power to the device you wish to turn on. The wire still needs to exist to power the item. In order to reduce the wiring the system becomes more complex.
For someone who's lived with freezing winters all my life, I can tell you remote starting a car has been around for over 20 years. Before there were chips in cars. A car's heating starts when the engine warms up, unless it's an electric car. The modern remote start is less abou
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The chip doesn't heat the seat. You have an on/off switch and the 12V power cables. End of. No electronics required.
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Re:Why do you need "chips" to control a heated sea (Score:4, Funny)
Why do we even need cars anyway? What's wrong with a horse and cart?!
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Found the buggy whip manufacturer.
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It saves the automaker a lot of costs and trouble when everything is integrated in a single chip. CAN bus interface, controller for the switches that drive the heatingelements, fault handling,
They put crazy stuff on those c
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Horses are a bit slow no?
Holy shit. My mind immediately went to invention mode: a carriage that has a large threadmill in front. The horse can power the threadmill, which transmits the power like a regular engine to a gear box, allowing the carriage to go a lot faster than the horse is able to. If you could cajole the horse into walking even when stopped, you could even add alternator and AC to the carriage, or with a bank of batteries you could even get around the horse not moving while stopped. And you widen and lengthen the
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Control
verb
1. determine the behaviour or supervise the running of.
A relay and switch doesn't supervise anything grandpa. If you're happy with your 1980s era "technology" of manually screwing about with the heating and cooling to try and keep the cabin at your desired temperature, more power to you.
Most people expect more from their cars these days.
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Manually screwing around? You mean setting the thermostat, the same as you have to do now? The same as we did in the 60s? By the way, cars in the 80s did have "chips" for electronic controls, even if not as many and not as sophisticated.
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You mean setting the thermostat, the same as you have to do now?
Cars have never had thermostats that weren't digitally controlled. They had dumb air mixing settings all the way through to the 90s (and beyond for cheaper cars). You don't set a thermostat. You set how much cold and hot air gets mixed. The cabin temperature then changes with sunlight, external air temperature, and even the speed you're going at since that effects engine temperature and thus cabin heating. Very much a feature that you have to manually screw around with.
If you're not manually screwing around
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Control
verb
1. determine the behaviour or supervise the running of.
A relay and switch doesn't supervise anything grandpa. If you're happy with your 1980s era "technology" of manually screwing about with the heating and cooling to try and keep the cabin at your desired temperature, more power to you.
Most people expect more from their cars these days.
I was much happier with my old car that had a manual AC than I have been with any "automatic" system. Basically, with the manual system, I could keep myself comfortable, and none of the fancy automatic ones seem to be able to do that. Not to mention they like to put simple things like changing which vents air comes out of under a level or two of menus or button fiddling, which means I basically have to pull over to do it safely.
Unfortunately, the manual systems are all going away, probably because it costs
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Everything is easer to control by computer. Let me give a quick example... power windows. In my previous car, they ran thick (#10) stranded copper wire to every door, three leads, and all of those ran to the "master door" (driver) so that door could control the windows. so there's this thick bundle of heavy power wire running into that one door. And it's the door that opens and closes the most often by far. Over time the wires bend in the cramped boot and start to break. As strands break, the windo
Re: Why do you need "chips" to control a heated se (Score:3)
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You would still need at least one well jacketed 16ga wire to power the motor in each window. The physics of running the motor doesnt change. Just the control and relay signaling. That part can be done with contact ribbons for sure.
Who needs a motor? A hand crank is less complex and failure prone,, and works even if submerged. Seriously, one advantage to chips is you can build in capabilities, such as sensing obstructions or different functions based on button press that a simple circuit can't. Not that those are needed, but in the race to add features chips proliferate.
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'Nothing of value to the operator'. Except lower cost, availability of features, lower weight (fuel), etc. But what the the Romans ever done for us?
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I've replaced wiring in THREE driver's doors due to breakage. In one of them, over half the wires were broken. Some were making touch-contact, but when I pulled on the wires from both ends, the insulation stretched as the wires inside parted. (this is stranded automotive wire, the individual wires in the #10 bundles were around #18-20)
In my current vehicle, the rear passenger window is moving slow, which has been my indication that the wiring to it is breaking down too.
I have NEVER had to replace a windo
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In my current vehicle, the rear passenger window is moving slow, which has been my indication that the wiring to it is breaking down too.
All the fords I've owned had zero window wiring problems, however the 25year old Mercury did eat some plastic parts in the window motor gearbox ($8 part). Don't grind on the switches when the window gets sluggish. check the gearbox. Never rock a live window motor switch back and forth, the reverse current surges burn out things.
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This is just pushing the buck around... If cars still did that, then there would be a massive component shortage of relays, switches, and rheostats. Then you'd be asking why cars didn't just use plentiful semiconductors to solve the problem instead.
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A microcontroller is cheaper than a pot, more reliable, and lighter.
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That stuff will all work, but it's bigger, heavier and less reliable. When I was a kid, the clock on the dashboard was a huge joke. Every car we ever had, the clock stopped working within a couple years. Other electro-mechanical systems are more reliable, but none of them approach the performance of chips. I must admit there was something satisfying about the way presets worked on those old radios: Tune to station, pull lever out, push lever in. The lever activated a mechanical memory. So satisfying!
has been this way for almost a year (Score:2)
Some options will be missing too. He knew already in August that he wouldn't have the Head On Display he ordered (it's part of an add-on pack). So he paid for it but won't get it. Asking for a refund on the display they refused because there's a line behind him that would gladly take the van AND prices h
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They should restart production of the Model T - I hear it was good and cheap, and got only gooder ( ;) ) and cheaper.
Who needs an electric starter anyway?
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The model T did have an electric starter.
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The car was built between 1908 and 1927.
The electric starter was indeed available (as an option) starting from 1921.
Sorry for being wrong.
De-gunked cars aren't a bug: they're a feature (Score:2)
The recent Canadian government freezing of bank accounts because they didn't fancy some donations is a prime example of an avoidable Orwellian future.
Who wants to have their car frozen because of an errant Slashdot post or tweet?
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I'd totally be in the market for a commuter diesel without a bunch of silicon
I and the rest of the world are thankful that you won't be able to buy one of those horribly polluting pieces of pre-silicon shit.
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Yeah, who wants a vehicle that can do 50mpg and has a ton of low down torque?
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I'd love an electric car, thanks! But nobody in the USA wants a diesel car. Yeah 50mpg, but diesel costs $1 more a gallon than gasoline anyhow so you gained nothing.
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Yeah, who wants a vehicle that can do 50mpg and has a ton of low down torque?
Depends. Does it come with free cancer or lead poisoning? Or do you think pollution is exclusively a measure of mpg? If you do, then I'm guessing you spent a lot of time breathing in those wonderful lead fumes.
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Diesels produce more health-hazardous emissions now than they used to when they had nothing but a CDR, because DPFs turn their big chunky funky greasy soot into fine dry microparticle soot that is more carcinogenic. They also produce more CO2 because some of the soot is burned off, and because DPFs have to regen so if you'd doing anything other than lots of highway miles they have to actually add fuel. The DPFs all eventually clog no matter what and then they have to be pressure washed out, and of course th
Re: De-gunked cars aren't a bug: they're a feature (Score:2)
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Im not even sure gasoline engines have a nox sensor, just an O2 sensor.
As far as I know that's correct. DI gassers probably ought to have one, as they can produce NOx pretty easily.
I was really dissolved that the Chevy Volt and other HEV did not use a diesel generator to power their motor when the batteries ran low.
Even more surprising, they didn't even use the Atkinson cycle. I suppose that's so they could have a pure engine mode that doesn't depend on the electric system, which gives you some idea about how confident they are in it (not very.)
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...Unburned hydrocarbons (raw fuel) are the most toxic automotive emission...
A gasoline engine in good condition shouldn't spew out unburned hydrocarbons. If you smell gas when your car's engine is running, you need to get it serviced.
and fine particulates-- soot-- is probably the number one toxic emission, and you get that from diesels (particularly when starting up, and when accelerating). Yes, in principle a diesel shouldn't be spewing soot. But they sure do.
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A gasoline engine in good condition shouldn't spew out unburned hydrocarbons.
They have to when you start them, they run rich. But frankly literally the only reason that every single gasoline engine doesn't emit unburned HCs is the catalyst. If you have fuel injection then while cruising in closed loop mode the PCM is continually running rich-lean-rich-lean as it watches O2 sensor output and adjusts the mixture. If you don't then your carb will be tuned to run a little rich while under maximum acceleration so as to run cooler and not damage exhaust valves by running lean under maximu
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Diesels produce more health-hazardous emissions now than they used to
No. They produce *different* health-hazardous emissions now. There was nothing healthy about the greasy soot blasting out of the exhaust pipe. It's the reason we put effort into cleaning it up. The fact that we find the results now are also hazardous doesn't change anything. But hey if I'm going to die of cancer at least I can lie in my hospital window and actually see down the road without fucking horrendous smog many major cities of the all-mechanical engine era were known for.
Thank god for chips and engi
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The recent Canadian government freezing of bank accounts because they didn't fancy some donations is a prime example of an avoidable Orwellian future.
Organization announces they intend to commit criminal acts. You give money to said organization. Organization does exactly what they say and do criminal things. You seemed shocked when the government comes knocking.
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I don't know about a commuter but I hear you can import a diesel Jimny for less than ten grand. With current prices in this market it sounds like a bargain and a half... apparently there's some trick where you import them through Canada or something.
Up next (Score:2)
HP to ship machines without chips in an attempt to clear year long backlog. Chips will be sent separately and installed by local techs.
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That's fine. I'll just pay with an NFT.
Hey Ford: Omit the Nut Behind The Wheel (Score:2)
Hey Ford: Omit the Nut Behind The Wheel. And the wingnut in the passenger's seat.
Poor planning from start to finish (Score:2)
A big part of the problem with vehicles is that they depend on specific monolithic modules. Ford can't make substitutions even if there's a workalike part available (which to be fair it's not clear that there is at the moment) because the entire module has to be redesigned to change it.
Re: Poor planning from start to finish (Score:2)
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If it's not a structural or restraint design change then you probably don't need to re-test, especially if you're Ford.
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Does every part in a car have to pass NTSB testing? If so wouldnt that create a backlog trying to retrofit new controllers in a 8yr body style approved car?
Probably every part has to pass some sort of testing. For example the rear controllers are powered by electricity so you want them to pass electrical safety tests. Beyond that every automaker has designed the cars (with thousands of parts) to use specific parts. Changing parts is not as simple as substituting one part for a random one and shipping them to customers. At the present time, it is not as if there are other parts that available as there is a general shortage of chips for every one not just automa
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Using car manufacturing, imagine having new revisions of a part (we see this all the time, part # blah blah supersedes part blah-blah). Only the car plant has to first install the defective part in first, then replace it with the improved revision.
And they have done all the testing for this new part which must be done at record pace with little advanced planning? Also bear in mind, they are making possibly hundreds of thousands to a million of these cars which are waiting for these new revisions. The USS Abraham Lincoln took 4 years to build for one unit. Again revisions happen. They normally do not happen in record time due to shortages of supplies that no one else can get. Imagine if suddenly car manufacturers could not source aluminum and how many
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What kind of crappy cars are you driving that that happens? Every time I have had an O2 sensor go bad the only noticeable effect is that the check engine light comes on.
Trade Secrets (Score:2)
Reminds me of hard drives years ago (Score:2)
Back in the early 90s, hard drives were shipped from the factory with an attached list of known bad sectors. It was up to you to make sure you marked those sectors as bad, so your computer wouldn't try to save data in those locations.
Chip Shortage Does Not Add Up (Score:2)
Video cards are expensive because of the high demand from miners, but cards are still available. They are expensive but you can buy them, such as an: EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 down 9% to $1,314. This card was $2200 a few months ago.
The memory for the cards is also available, and so is ordinary PC/Laptop memory, such as a: Corsair Vengeance 32GB 2x16GB $139.
CPU's pretty reasonable, such as an: AMD 5950x $589, which is lower than the $750 the 3950 was.
Everything other chip on
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It adds up.
Chip shortage is inflicted most on the low-margin. The people willing to pay the least are last in line. That price for an RTX 3080 may be down from a few months ago, it's still 2x what the retail price was originally planned to be.
Embedded applications don't have much room to compete with the more profitable segments when supply is constrained and the supply chain simply must pick winners and losers.
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Video cards are expensive because of the high demand from miners, but cards are still available. They are expensive but you can buy them, such as an: EVGA GeForce RTX 3080 down 9% to $1,314. This card was $2200 a few months ago.
The MSRP of the RTX 3080 was $699 at launch. The fact that it is 2X that price does not mean they are generally available.
The memory for the cards is also available, and so is ordinary PC/Laptop memory, such as a: Corsair Vengeance 32GB 2x16GB $139.
DDR memory manufacturing does not use the same foundries as CPUs.
CPU's pretty reasonable, such as an: AMD 5950x $589, which is lower than the $750 the 3950 was.
And it has taken how long for that chip to be generally available? More than a year from my estimates.
Everything other chip on a motherboard isn't scarce, such as a: MSI MAG B550 for $174.99.
Based on what? Do you work at MSI to know how scarce their sourcing has been for boards that launched in 2020?
You can even preorder the new IPhone SE 28GB $429 available starting 3.18.
And? Apple is notoriously diligent about supply chain with them lending or outright paying suppliers to secure th
How about 'without brakes'? (Score:2)
The desperation is a bit much.
They'll go bankrupt and nobody will get their chips installed.
How 'bout a really complicated, hi-tech solution? (Score:2)
Like, non-electronic controls, the way we used to have them?
End of JIT (Score:2)
This looks to me like the end of JIT (just in time) inventory - at least for a while. When it works it works great, allowing companies to save time and money. But Covid has exposed the weakness of JIT. Any disruption to the supply chain - ships stuck in port, trucks delayed, parts delayed, etc - and JIT is broken.
Even regular households are seeing this happen. It used to be that when you ran out of a certain item you could just go to the store and buy some more. Now people go to the store and are finding em
The sheer amount of Slashdotter who ask for anolog (Score:2)
Without chips we go back to the carburetor era,,, let me tell you, if you think it was good , just look at the average car MPG back in the days.
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You're thinking gasoline. Gasoline cars are night and day to how they were before. But the modern diesels with all the trimmings produce less but finer and more carcinogenic soot and more CO2, less NOx and overall soot, but are way less reliable in the most extreme case. There's no beating an International Dt, Cummins B or C with a P-pump for reliability, they are very efficient so long as they have an aftercooled turbo as most did, and also have very reasonable emissions. And they are every bit as nice to
Arduino needed... (Score:2)
Sounds like an Arduino project to me!?!
fuel economy (Score:2)
The people buying these trucks didn't care about fuel economy anyway. Most of them will end up with ECM mods that would defeat the purpose of any efficiency controls.
All the 'real man' types drive shiny full size pickups with nothing in them but the driver. They care about appearances and not about fuel.
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Pretty sure car aircon was invented before chips were a thing.
Not by much. Except for a couple of fits and starts, automotive air conditioning wasn't a thing until the mid 1950's. The microchip was first patented in 1959, with the first commercial sales in 1961.
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"Chips" for car air conditioning controls was not a thing in the 60s or 70s, and I'm guessing not in the 80s, either.
But, yes, air conditioning for automobiles was an added-cost option well into the 60s. My family didn't have real air conditioning for our car in the 50s even while living in Houston, Texas.
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Why does a car air-conditioner even need a chip?
Why do computers need integrated circuits? You could run several simultaneous users on a PDP/8 and that machine contained nothing but discrete transistors and diodes.
Re: Why chip? (Score:2)
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In order for a car to have more than one zone each area needs a sensor, a chiller, and an expansion valve, minimum.
It was regarding that bit of ridiculous complexity. I doubt any car actually does that. sensor yes, but everything else way too expensive to duplicate and they add weight and failure points.
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It looks good to gullible idiots in the marketing brochure, no other reason. All the air con at the back needs is pipework and a vent with a mechanical open/close.
Re: Why chip? (Score:2)
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Kids cant afford cars.
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What was wrong with Off/Low/Medium/High?
Nothing. The point is the fan being automatic so the temperature can be better maintained. Modern heat pumps are like this too.
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What was wrong with Off/Low/Medium/High?
So the driver can control it up front when the kids set the AC to 60 degrees in the winter and exit the vehicle. Or when the 90 year old MIL in the back can't figure out how to change the temperature.
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What was wrong with Off/Low/Medium/High?
And what kind of signal would be required to communicate this setting to the front panel and the A/C controller? Also the rear controls generally are overriden by the front panel. Please present your ideas to the world's automakers. They are probably interested in your simple solution.