Russian Forces Seize Control of Chernobyl Nuclear Plant (cnn.com) 239
"Slashdot has always had an interest in the Chernobyl nuclear power plant, which CNN describes as 'the site of the world's worst nuclear disaster,'" writes Slashdot reader DevNull127. "Today, CNN is reporting that Chernobyl has been captured by Russian troops." From the report: Troops overran the plant on the first day of Russia's multi-pronged invasion of Ukraine, a spokesperson for the State Agency of Ukraine on Exclusion Zone Management, Yevgeniya Kuznetsov, told CNN. "When I came to the office today in the morning (in Kyiv), it turned out that the (Chernobyl nuclear power plant) management had left. So there was no one to give instructions or defend," she said.
Earlier Thursday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky warned that Russian forces were attempting to wrest control of the nuclear plant. "Russian occupation forces are trying to seize the Chernobyl (nuclear power plant). Our defenders are sacrificing their lives so that the tragedy of 1986 will not be repeated," Zelensky tweeted."This is a declaration of war against the whole of Europe." The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry echoed the President's warning, raising the specter of another nuclear disaster in the city. "In 1986, the world saw the biggest technological disaster in Chernobyl," the ministry tweeted. "If Russia continues the war, Chernobyl can happen again in 2022." "A map shows the power plant is nearly adjacent to the northern border of Ukraine -- so when Russian troops began their invasion, it was one of the first things they encountered," adds DevNull127.
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Earlier Thursday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky warned that Russian forces were attempting to wrest control of the nuclear plant. "Russian occupation forces are trying to seize the Chernobyl (nuclear power plant). Our defenders are sacrificing their lives so that the tragedy of 1986 will not be repeated," Zelensky tweeted."This is a declaration of war against the whole of Europe." The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry echoed the President's warning, raising the specter of another nuclear disaster in the city. "In 1986, the world saw the biggest technological disaster in Chernobyl," the ministry tweeted. "If Russia continues the war, Chernobyl can happen again in 2022." "A map shows the power plant is nearly adjacent to the northern border of Ukraine -- so when Russian troops began their invasion, it was one of the first things they encountered," adds DevNull127.
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Staging area (Score:5, Insightful)
This gives them a staging area where there forces will not be bombarded due to the risk of nuclear radiation release from the plant.
sir turn your key! (Score:3)
sir turn your key!
Re:Staging area (Score:4)
I wonder if the Russian solders have had the thought, "We are fighting to restore a system that produced this?"
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The plant design was pretty shit. The AZ5 button, which was supposed to be the button you press to bring the reactor to a safe state, blew up the plant. People knew this button wasn't that safe, but they didn't train them to know when it might not be safe. So a shit reactor and shit training.
Having said that, Russia today is not communist, so no real relatinsihp there.
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It was also a positive coefficiant plant. when those things melt down, very very bad things happen.
Modern negative coefficient plants (like Fukushima) once the reactions out of control, lose reactivity which eventually cancells the meltdown.
The dfifference between the two couldnt be starker. To this day Cheynobyl is still reacting, its under a whole heap of concrete and the like so its contained, but before getting there, it forced millions of people out of their home. Fukushima while immediately bad, Stopp
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The dfifference between the two couldnt be starker. To this day Cheynobyl is still reacting, its under a whole heap of concrete and the like so its contained, but before getting there, it forced millions of people out of their home. Fukushima while immediately bad, Stopped reacting once the core was breached. There was a displacement of people, but it was largely out of sensible caution. The residual radiation is entirely manageable, and life has largely returned to normal in the area.
Really? From googling, it seems like more than 100,000 people have not been able to return home and the Fukushima evacuation zone is still ~300 sq km (I also seem a 12.5 mile radius from the plant).
I don't think that matches up with your take on what's going on there.
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The test itself was actually a good idea. Running it with the personnel they did was the fatal error. At the very least the plan should have called for a shutdown in the case of unexpected behavior, rather than the operators trying to improvise a response to a situation that was outside of their training.
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The AZ5 button that they pressed to blow up the plant IS the shutdown button. The plan WAS to shutdown the plant, that's why they pressed AZ5 and blew it up. The reasons are complicated, the core had "Xenon poisoning" from running on low power for a while, the reactor design meant you had to remove the moderator as you inserted the carbon rods, leaving the lower reactor over reactive. People knew these problems, but the buttons weren't designed for safety, the reactor design was inherently flawed, the peop
Re:Staging area (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, they should have aborted the test when they were at reduced power and the grid operator told them they couldn't shut down as planned because they needed the power to meet monthly manufacturing quotas. So they let it run at minimum power for hours, building a xenon pit that reduced reactivity well below what should have been there for the test to be successful. They cranked all the control rods out to bring up reactivity but it just wasn't working and they didn't know why - until the xenon burned off and they had a runaway reactor that blew the 1000-ton concrete bioshield right off the top of the thing, where it still sits today at a 15 degree angle.
That, of course, let in oxygen so that the superheated graphite could now burn, spreading radioactive shit halfway across Europe.
Any sensical management would have cancelled the rundown test as soon as the schedule was changed. But they had their own quotas to worry about. Central planning at it's finest.
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Re:Staging area (Score:4, Insightful)
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This gives them a staging area where there forces will not be bombarded due to the risk of nuclear radiation release from the plant.
I wonder what would have happened if the Ukrainian forces stationed there? Would Russia have taken the risk?
For whatever is going on the tactical planning is now being revealed. There have been a lot of meetings about how this would play out.
Re:Staging area (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think Russia needs any more staging areas. Chernobyl is only 21km (13 miles) from the Belarus border, where Russian troops have been staging for months.
Mother Russia (Score:2, Insightful)
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What Putin may be intending to do with Chernobyl is scatter radiation from it to render a large swath of Ukrainian land uninhabitable. This may be his plan to keep any Western invaders out.
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Besides which, the remaining nuclear material at Chernobyl is poorly suited for building a dirty bomb with any dispersal. Nearly 100% of the radioisotopes of the 3 elements
Turkey can block Russian access to Med (Score:3)
This push into Ukraine allows them "warm waters" via the Black Sea, which has access to the Med, ...
If NATO member Turkey allows it. Blocking access to the Med could be one of the sanctions.
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They already had Crimea (not to mention other Black sea ports).
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All the way back to the time of Peter the Great, Russia always wants "buffer land", so that if someone comes knocking, they can sacrifice "non" Russian land, and protect the core of Russia.
That's not really practical in the days of stealth bombers and nuclear weapons. Once you've lost air control, your buffer land won't protect you.
This push into Ukraine allows them "warm waters" via the Black Sea, which has access to the Med, and ultimately the Atlantic ocean.
This has been said a lot, but it makes zero sense. In the first place, Russia already controlled Crimea. In the second place, Russia has Sochi on the Black Sea. In the third place, the Black Sea doesn't matter as long as Turkey can block it off at Istanbul.
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next level
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There are these things called "satellites" which have cameras on them. Reactor disasters, especially reactors that are no longer operating, look very different from a nuclear weapon detonation. And, the fission products are very different as well, so there would be physical evidence blowing on the wind over Russia's ally Belarus to put the lie to that.
Also, why nuke an area that by definition has nobody living there, and nothing actually happening there due to the exclusion zone? That's a pretty massive
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No. Nukes have a "double flash" phenomenon which is how yield is estimated from footage. A power plant going tonto would look very different.
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But it's only a couple of miles from the Belarus border, where they are allowed to stage any amount they like. Also, they can be vulnerable to siege and other methods of attack.
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I heard a rumour that the Russian troops would already have blown up a nuclear waste storage facility in Chernobyl.
If that's true and they stay, then joke's on them.
BTW. The weather report for tomorrow says that the wind is blowing towards Belarus and Russia.
Re:Staging area (Score:4, Informative)
Why would they want to blow up nuclear storage, contaminate the land they're trying to take, and probably Russia and their ally Belarus at the same time? Don't put out nonsense.
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Why would Russia want this toxic nuclear waste dump?
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Why would Russia want this toxic nuclear waste dump?
To find the evidence hidden by the illegitimate state of Ukraine that proves the disaster was actually a work of sabotage by the CIA.
That the evidence is still present to be found is a testament to the quality and durability of engineering produced by the workers of the Soviet Union.
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Yes, comrade. I see the plot now.
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Stalker used to be hugely popular in Russia. Playing it IRL is an opportunity they would kill for.
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Great conspiracy theory. Or the reality: It's just an old nuclear plant on the way into Ukraine of no significant strategic value.
You don't think Russians are actually hiding *in* Chernobyl do you? I'm sure they are more willing to die for their country fighting the enemy rather than cancer.
Re:Staging area (Score:4, Insightful)
Well... Chernobyl is actually a city where people live, so yes they could be "in" Chernobyl. The abandoned town where the reactor is, is Pripyat.
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Not really an issue with modern munitions. This isn't WW2, where you had to flatten an entire city to get a factory.
Geneva convention (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Geneva convention (Score:5, Funny)
What the fuck were they thinking?
Maybe someone told Putin that radiation can make you taller.
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Maybe someone told Putin that radiation can make you taller.
Nah; they told him it grows chest hairs.
(shhhh! it really grows tumors!)
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Re:Geneva convention (Score:4, Funny)
Chernobyl as a safe base, well, the reviews were glowing.
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Maybe they plan on disassembling the big ass containment vessel that the world bought for them into spare parts for their 50 year old tanks and frogfoots.
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They didn't "have" to take Chernobyl... But then again, what's "take" mean. Maybe they just flew on through. The shit coming out of Zelenskyy's mouth right now is almost insulting propaganda. He's trying to give Putin a run for his money in that department. Though I'm also not entirely sure I blame him. He's probably shitting his pants right now, as his future is pretty much guaranteed to end in a gulag.
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I don't know a lot about the guy, but his Twitter posts since this shit-storm began have been pretty eye-rolling. But either way, I'm pretty sure a country led by an elected Jew doesn't need "de-nazification" as Putin claims, and Russia isn't known for the great treatment of political prisoners.
There were a lot of Russian troops on the Belarusian border west of Kiev. Hard to say how many went south, and how much of the road west is blocked.
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That's a really stupid reason. Winds change direction, and they currently are blowing anything that would come out of there right over Russia's ally, Belarus.
Pretty sure that they don't need to drop any more Chernobyl fallout on Minsk - they got enough the first time around.
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I'm sure that would have totally restrained Russia.
Keeping Europe safe (Score:3, Insightful)
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Yeah, because people that are fighting for their own homes are likely to spread radioactive waste across large swaths of their own land... because reasons!
Even if Russia was to leave tomorrow, they'd still be left with a shitload of radioactive waste spread across their own country, by them. That's the very definition of "fucking stupid" and could only be conceived on Slashdot.
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Re:Keeping Europe safe (Score:4, Insightful)
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Interest? (Score:2)
Slashdot has always had an interest in the Chernobyl nuclear power plant, ...
I hear it's for sale -- cheap, it's a fixer-upper.
Re: Interest? (Score:2)
The most recent bit of housekeeping, the New Safe Confinement cost 2.1 billion, so cheap fixer upper may not be the right label.
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The most recent bit of housekeeping, the New Safe Confinement cost 2.1 billion, so cheap fixer upper may not be the right label.
True, having a safe room often adds to the value of a property. :-)
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The most recent bit of housekeeping, the New Safe Confinement cost 2.1 billion, so cheap fixer upper may not be the right label.
True, having a safe room often adds to the value of a property. :-)
A safe room that contains an unshielded nuclear reactor?
Realtors call that a "space heater" -- to keep you warm on those cold Ukrainian winter nights ...
(Firefly fans note that Reavers [wikipedia.org] love these.)
Why is Slashdot interested in Chernobyl? (Score:2)
>Slashdot has always had an interest in the Chernobyl nuclear power plant..
All of the Soviet Russia jokes perhaps?
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In soviet russia joke would be on you!
But why? (Score:2)
The reactors were shut down years ago, right? I know there's some control panels still there that route power or something, but nothing particularly strategic. I don't know why you'd bother, other than it's an empty area easy to take.
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A map shows.... (Score:3)
There's not much of strategic value in Pripyat/Chernobyl. There was an over-the-horizon radar installation, but it's long since decommissioned. It's potentially a place where Ukrainian special forces could have hidden, but otherwise it's probably just best to make sure nobody tries anything stupid.
By comparison, Three Mile Island is ~150km from D.C.
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Of course, Londonderry isn't near any international borders. My basic point was that Chernobyl is at best a distraction for people who don't know much about Ukraine. We're literally watching a Western-friendly European democracy get conquered. I'm not saying I want to start WW3, but we r
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Belarus is already a Russian puppet^H^H^H^H^H^H ally that just let a big invasion force rally and stage there before entering Ukraine. Why would they need to do anything there?
Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Romania, and Poland are all NATO members now. Invading them is tantamount to suicide, unless the goal is to cause as much death and destruction as you can on your way out.
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Containment Project (Score:2)
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The good news is that the new structure was moved into place a year or so ago. So unless it's shelled or actively targeted, it should be fine. Obviously this mess is going to delay the ongoing deconstruction and cleanup efforts because the operators of that multi-billion dollar piece of equipment won't really be able to get there to do the work of tearing that fucker down inside the containment, but nobody is interested in letting it just sit for another hundred years.
After the shooting stops, people will
Florida? (Score:2)
Maybe we could offer Florida to Russia. It's kind of like Chernobyl. It's not exactly radioactive, but it is a croc-infested swamp.
Would anything of value really be lost?
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Destroy Russian Military Capacity (Score:2)
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well, you eat what you cook...
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Because Russia, who has the world's largest stockpile of nuclear weapons to the point of actually selling off old plutonium cores to be converted into mixed-oxide reactor fuel, needs nuclear material?
Re:Nuclear material (Score:5, Insightful)
Even if this was true, and even if they could find some fissile material, how many fucking years would it take for Ukraine to actually build a functional nuclear device? Seriously, this has to be one of the more moronic claims. I mean, Iran's been working on it for years, and so far as anyone can tell, still hasn't actually built a bomb, and NK, for all its effort probably doesn't have more than a handful at best, and some pretty shaky delivery systems to boot.
Countries like South Korea, Germany, probably even Canada, could, with a bit of work, probably build a functioning nuclear weapon in a few years. Ukraine is none of those countries. It's hard to even call it a developed state, and if it is, it's at the low end.
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Not to mention that Ukraine VOLUNTARILY gave up the nukes they inherited when the Soviet Union broke up.
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Wasn't that because they couldn't control them?
By that I mean, they had physical access but didn't have the ability to set them off.
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I haven't heard that... but it wouldn't take much to develop some more controllers... not compared to developing a nuke from scratch anyway.
I'm not sure why Russia allowed Ukraine to break away without first retrieving the nukes. I guess at the time it was just chaos.
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Who knows how much knowledge and equipment remains there.
Only one of the reactors at chernobyl was destroyed, the other 3 were intact and remained operational for several years afterwards with the last one being shut down around 2000. There is clearly some level of nuclear expertise and technology still in ukraine, so it would probably take them a lot less time than other countries would need.
Also producing a dirty bomb is *much* easier, they only need to use conventional explosives to scatter radioactive w
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Building a nuke is not such a problem. How it works is basically depicted in every physics book.
Making the fissionable material is.
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Iran's been working on it for years, and so far as anyone can tell, still hasn't actually built a bomb
There is some debate in Iranian leadership as to whether they should build the bomb or not. What they do feel is that they should get close to building it.
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Literally, the only challenging part at all is getting the fissile material.
Sure, if you don't know the definition of "literally" or "only" this comment might make a little bit of sense.
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And what makes you think ukraine doesn't already have fissile material?
Only one of the 4 reactors at chernobyl was destroyed, the other 3 remained operational and the last one was shut down in 2000. What happened to the fuel and waste from those?
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Komrade, what would they have done with this nuclear bomb? Attacked their nice peaceful neighbor, Russia?
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Re:Nuclear material (Score:5, Interesting)
It was captured and secured because Ukrainians were gathering nuclear material from the disaster site to be used for building a nuclear bomb. That is also the main reason for the invasion.
Ukraine was left with a vast nuclear arsenal after the collapse of the USSR. It signed a deal with Russia in 1994 to unilaterally get rid of it, the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. Ukraine publicly reaffirmed its non-nuclear intent in 2014, after (and despite of) Russia's invasion of Crimea.
Why would a country willingly give up nuclear weapons, one of the best guarantees of sovereignty and independency? Here's what Russia signed in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]:
The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
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A fat lot of good that agreement did them. Russia violated both points yesterday. It's not a good argument for non-proliferation.
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You clearly know nothing about the construction of nuclear weapons. Or reactor fuels. Or Chernobyl.
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That's funny, when Chernobyl blew up, all the fallout went west and north-west.
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1. Chernobyl is right in the middle-north of the country. If winds are going to the east, they just irradiated half of their own country. That's a pretty stupid thing to do if you're trying to defend your own land.
2. The winds there don't go east. They go north, and west. Thus, it would have blown into Belarus, and eventually Sweden. That's a pretty stupid thing to do - irradiating one of the nations that has your back (Sweden).
3. You want to see the EU stop supporting Ukraine in this thing? Doing s
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On the flip side, Belarus became Ukraine's enemy when they violated their treaty [wikipedia.org] to assure each other's security by joining Russia in an unprovoked war of aggression. I mean yes, it would be a pretty stupid thing to do because it would cause harm to a lot of folks in Ukraine, but....
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Let Russia have it. Seriously, just declare it a separate russian supported state; but from the Ukrainian side... legitimate.
Re: Trump could have stopped this (Score:2, Informative)
He also allowed a virus, real or fake, on his watch. He also lost to Biden. Chose morons he had to fire from his own cabinet and advisors. FFS how is he the superior to God if he let all that happen?
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Trump failed the world. He allowed Putin, theTaliban, and ISIS to fester. He could have done something but chose not to. He promised to fix a lot of things and he failed badly. He is a multi-billionaire and couldn't block Biden from winning, which points to weakness in him. He got outplayed. Why would you want someone who lacks judgment and is outplayable as president? He failed to predict and block Biden's victory. He failed to predict and block the virus.
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You seem to be a troll account. You can fuck right off from whence you came.