Exploding Batteries: Chevy's 2021 Recall Shows the Challenges of Building Electric Cars (yahoo.com) 137
Electric cars make up less than 5% of new U.S. vehicle sales today — but automakers are betting on increasing demand. Chevy even plans to stop producing gas-powered cars altogether over the next 15 years, according to the Washington Post.
But they also ponder the implications of this year's recall of the Chevy Bolt: The crisis involving the Chevrolet Bolt was a painful reminder for the auto industry that despite treating the electric vehicle era as essentially inevitable — a technical fait accompli — significant obstacles to manufacturing the cars, and especially their batteries, continue to threaten that future. "It's a terrible thing that has happened," Tim Grewe, GM's general director for electrification strategy and cell engineering, said in an interview in September...
The recall of the Bolt covered all of the roughly 141,000 units GM had ever built. The company identified the issue as dual defects that led battery materials to make contact with one another and the components to combust spontaneously. It's a danger that comes directly from the core challenge of creating electric-vehicle batteries: the competition to pack more and more energy into them... Even as automakers seek to phase out gasoline engines en masse, high-voltage car batteries remain in their early stages of mass production. Many manufacturers are experimenting with new technologies and battery chemistries. While they do so, they are discovering defects — some of which can prove catastrophic.... Electric-car-battery explosions can release massive amounts of energy — and the fires can burn for hours, stretching longer and registering hotter than fires in cars with internal-combustion engines...
LG, which has made batteries for the Bolt's entire run, is reimbursing GM for nearly $2 billion of costs associated with the recall.... GM has been hit hardest by fire concerns — but Audi and Hyundai also have recalled EVs over fire risks.
But they also ponder the implications of this year's recall of the Chevy Bolt: The crisis involving the Chevrolet Bolt was a painful reminder for the auto industry that despite treating the electric vehicle era as essentially inevitable — a technical fait accompli — significant obstacles to manufacturing the cars, and especially their batteries, continue to threaten that future. "It's a terrible thing that has happened," Tim Grewe, GM's general director for electrification strategy and cell engineering, said in an interview in September...
The recall of the Bolt covered all of the roughly 141,000 units GM had ever built. The company identified the issue as dual defects that led battery materials to make contact with one another and the components to combust spontaneously. It's a danger that comes directly from the core challenge of creating electric-vehicle batteries: the competition to pack more and more energy into them... Even as automakers seek to phase out gasoline engines en masse, high-voltage car batteries remain in their early stages of mass production. Many manufacturers are experimenting with new technologies and battery chemistries. While they do so, they are discovering defects — some of which can prove catastrophic.... Electric-car-battery explosions can release massive amounts of energy — and the fires can burn for hours, stretching longer and registering hotter than fires in cars with internal-combustion engines...
LG, which has made batteries for the Bolt's entire run, is reimbursing GM for nearly $2 billion of costs associated with the recall.... GM has been hit hardest by fire concerns — but Audi and Hyundai also have recalled EVs over fire risks.
Reigntion risk (Score:5, Insightful)
Another problem with battery fires is the amount of water required to put them out - often much more than a typical firetruck can carry - and that if not cooled sufficiently, there's a high chance of it reigning hours or even days later.
Re: Reigntion risk (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
" the firefighters have to be trained to handle these vehicles, and the wreck shall be stored so that reignition will not cause danger"
such training has already been happening for years but if more water is required than is readily available, it doesn't help. strategies such as having tanks into which a car can be submerged means transporting another large heavy piece of equipment, needing more water, again, and a way to lift the car to drop into the tank.
while I don't anticipate EV battery fires to ever be
Re: Reigntion risk (Score:5, Informative)
You don't need a tank. They make giant fire blankets specifically for EV fires. Fire departments just need to buy them. It should be relatively easy for any municipality to look at how many EVs exist per year (which the DMV knows) and train and supply their fire departments appropriately according to the risks.
https://insideevs.com/news/429... [insideevs.com]
Re: (Score:3)
You don't need a tank. They make giant fire blankets specifically for EV fires. Fire departments just need to buy them. It should be relatively easy for any municipality to look at how many EVs exist per year (which the DMV knows) and train and supply their fire departments appropriately according to the risks.
https://insideevs.com/news/429... [insideevs.com]
I've seen that before and it will *not* work if the battery pack is already burning as it does NOT need supplemental oxygen to burn or reignite
Re: Reigntion risk (Score:2)
Do you have a source for that final claim.
It would seem to defy the general understanding of the fire triangle which is the most basic way to understand fire and fighting fires.
I am guessing some other kind of chemistry could be going on here which is why I would really like a source.
Re: (Score:2)
Not sure about OP source, but Lithium fires are Class D fires and require special handling as they also burn in water: 2 Li + 2 H2O => 2 LiOH + H2
This is exothermic, producing a medium-strong base and H2, which due to it's tiny molecular size can seep out of many many things (particularly if said exothermiciticy has compromised the containing structure directly or indirectly via steam pressure or disassociation of H2 to H, which can seep out of even more places.)
Re: Reigntion risk (Score:2)
This helps a lot. Trying to better relate it to the risk such a fire poses. If the exothermic reaction is strong enough, and there are pressures from a partially compromised battery, you are talking an explosion that is through in heated chemicals everywhere, right? More so the H2 or H could build up and likewise be part of an explosion.
I don't know why you mentioned it being a medium base though? Is there a chain reaction that can happen here? Is there an acid involved in car batteries except lithium which
Re: (Score:2)
Though it's clear the most technical job you will ever be able to handle is that of a Cash Register Jockey- I think you may have a possible career in comedy, because "hit square in the forehead with a tire iron by a guy wearing a boxing glove." was pure fucking gold. I about spit my coffee on my keyboard.
Re: (Score:2)
If you are a person who feels impassioned enough about this situation as you appear, to such an extreme that you strike out as you do (of course anonymously); I promise you, as a person who can't be bothered to waste time on party politics, your issues are not likely what you think they are.
You lashed out about smugness and snideness. This is a common complaint from people raised poorly. It comes as a programmed response from people who believe everyone looks down their nose at th
Re: (Score:2)
Who pays for all that? Why, taxpayers, of course.
Re: (Score:2)
You say that like it's a surprise idea. That somehow you think those liberals are so stupid that they think they can get it for free.
However, you should also realize how much easy funding the fire departments get. Even small towns get an overkill amount of funding for equipment to deal with all sorts of rare issues. Said fire blankets may mean their next set of firetrucks may not get as much chrome on its fenders, or the money of an extra chilli cook-off.
While EV catch on fire less often than car fires, ho
Re: (Score:2)
I pay 49.6 income tax, but I take home about 30% more than I would if I still lived in the states. I pay toll booths, road taxes... This is because I believe nothing should be free. But I know that by paying taxes, my life is better because my neighbor's kids can go to college, earn more money, pay more taxes and eventually pay my retirement.
I know that every time I light a smoke, I'm pissing people off because thanks to BEVs, people smell
Re: Reigntion risk (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
I bought a BMW i3 and regret not buying a Tesla even though they are WAY too big and ugly as hell. BMW who I believe is way better than GM or Audi wouldn't know a computer if someone smacked them with one.
Re: (Score:2)
The EV summit, was with just the unionized automakers.
Detroit voters are heavily influenced the the UAW, Michigan has became a swing State, so politically all parties are going to kiss their asses.
I don't agree with it, but that is how politics work. We don't see the GOP reaching out to Tesla, because they are still pushing EV are bad agenda, and Tesla is still considered a California company, and is moving to Texas, but has little influence there. So it isn't a political target to get new votes yet.
Re: (Score:3)
Foam tends to insulate rather than cool the battery down.
Not really specific to EVs; perspective matters. (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Not really specific to EVs; perspective matters (Score:5, Insightful)
Your first link describes a risk of incorrect airbag deployment, not fire. It's also a design element that would be common to ICE and BEV types -- is your real complaint that we have automobiles?
Similarly for your second link; while "ignition switch" is ICE-specific, the function is not. And how many recalls have Tesla's BEVs had related to Autopilot, which has caused a similar number of deaths from far fewer total cars?
The real difference here is that this recall is related to a unique feature of electric vehicles that critics have been warning about, and that fans have been denying would be a problem.
Re: (Score:2)
while "ignition switch" is ICE-specific, the function is not.
Well, that depends on how smart the ICEV is. The "ignition" in "ignition switch" specifically refers to achieving ignition. When you achieve ignition in an EV, it's a problem, and that's what this discussion is about. Significantly, the ignition switch in a traditional ICEV is fundamentally different from the on button/switch in an EV, because at some point it actually actuates a starter motor with a starter relay. Even on vehicles with a remote start module/function, that used to mean that when you turned
Re: Not really specific to EVs; perspective matter (Score:2)
Re: Not really specific to EVs; perspective matte (Score:2)
Re: Not really specific to EVs; perspective matt (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Not really specific to EVs; perspective matt (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
You lumped in all automotive recalls, ignoring the fact that this is a recall for a BEV-specific defect that could lead to a fire that would destroy not only the BEV but nearby things, especially when the vehicle was unattended. That was some epic false equivalence. So, yes, "some really stupid stuff" as you put it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The real difference here is that this recall is related to a unique feature of electric vehicles that critics have been warning about, and that fans have been denying would be a problem.
If you criticise anything that presents an engineering challenge you will eventually find a company issuing a recall as a result of fucking it up. Thats nothing special about this. There's nothins special about EVs. Oooh they have batteries, but fire, oooh scary. Clearly driving with tanks full of gasoline is much safer.
And let's ignore than countless of EVs not covered by recalls.
Seriously shaping this as "EV critics have warned about it" is dishonest at best and stupid at worst. This isn't an "EV" issue.
Re: (Score:2)
Regular ICEs have recalls over technical issues all the time.
Sure, I don't believe anyone is claiming otherwise.
So nothing here is that special about electric cars.
No, this is something special about electric cars. The fires from ICEVs happen while people are operating the vehicle while the fires from EVs are not. The ICEV fire risks go away if people stop the car and turn off the ignition, they won't burst into flames while parked in a garage while people are asleep in their beds. Well, there are cases of EV fires while people are driving them too, but that's not anything special about electric cars.
People are alr
Re:Not really specific to EVs; perspective matters (Score:4, Insightful)
I believe you are mistaken. An ICEV vehicle can, in rare circumstances, start on fire even when it's off.
After all, ICEV still has electrical power going to the dash and fuse box.
And note that a manufacturing defect, damage, or corrosion could case a gasleak, meaning the ICEV leaks gasoline all over the garage floor, causing another possible fire hazard (especially with how dangerous a gasoline/air mixture is). Or just spray gasoline all over the engine bay, which can also cause a fire. (Most modern cars are fuel injected, and have the pump in the tank. Fuel injectors need high pressure, and even when off, there's leftover pressure in the fuel lines.)
So there's risks either way.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't bother with logic. These people go it's different so it is all bad. Even if the overall risk is down, they are going to fixate on that one condition where it could be worse and think it is all doom.
It is likes peoples fear of flying. It is proven to be the safest form of travel. However the fear of the rare condition makes a lot of people hesitant for flying.
Re: (Score:2)
"The fires from ICEVs happen while people are operating the vehicle while the fires from EVs are not. The ICEV fire risks go away if people stop the car and turn off the ignition, they won't burst into flames while parked in a garage while people are asleep in their beds"
A couple of weeks ago there was a big fire that burned 20 apartments. It apparently started with firecrackers igniting the cars in the underground garage. While no details were given, I suppose most of those cars were gasoline and diesel, n
Re: (Score:2)
The ICEV fire risks go away if people stop the car and turn off the ignition, they won't burst into flames while parked in a garage while people are asleep in their beds.
About 10 years ago, maybe longer, three condominiums near where I live burned to the ground due to a vehicle fire in the garage of one of them. I don't think I ever heard what model of vehicle it was, but electric cars were pretty rare when it happened. At the time I assumed that it was due to a leaking fuel tank but I have to admit that I don't know the exact details. Still, if it had been a EV fire back when an EV cost more than a third of the price of the condominium where it was parked, I think that wou
Re: (Score:2)
$12 strap vs $12,000 battery bank (Score:2)
Looking back over a hundred years of vehicle production, you found a case in which an ICE vehicle needed a $12 steel strap replaced and pretended that's equivalent to replacing the $12,000 of batteries in an EV.
Re: (Score:2)
Regular ICEs have recalls over technical issues all the time. For example, 2004 had a recall of over 4 million Ford vehicles of a short that could cause a fire https://www.autobytel.com/ford/f-150/2004/car-recalls/#:~:text=FORD%20IS%20RECALLING%20CERTAIN%20MODEL,POTENTIAL%20FOR%20A%20SHORT%20CIRCUIT. [autobytel.com] (This was actually the second time they had an issue of this sort, having had a similar recall in the mid 1990s). GE had a recall of millions of cars in 2014 with a problem that people actually died from https://www.vox.com/2014/10/3/18073458/gm-car-recall [vox.com]. These are some of the larger examples, but they are not the only ones. In 2014, due in part to the aforementioned recall, about a third of all cars had recalls https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2014/03/26/automakers-with-the-lowest-and-highest-recall-rates/?sh=7bd8966c612a [forbes.com]. And there are estimates that about half of all cars will have recalls during their lifetimes. So nothing here is that special about electric cars.
Will there be recalls of Tesla vehicles when using Autopilot [cnn.com] because they keep plowing into emergency vehicles? People have been injured and died from this. Or how when Full Self-driving is engaged it drives into oncoming traffic [go.com]?
At least the company has issued a recall on 500,000 of its vehicles [businessinsider.com] due to poor manufacturing and quality control issues.
Re: (Score:2)
Soy based wiring harnesses. That rats and rodents find absolutely delicious. So eventually they'll chew through and cause a short, possibly on a high voltage circuit, causing a fire.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, because nobody ever died from misuse of a vehicle causing a crash before. Or distracted driving. Nope, never happened until Tesla released Autopilot.
Every single Tesla that has autopilot turned on, also has a driver that agreed to pay attention and take corrective actions if necessary. Did you also bang on about cruise control when it became widely available as a standard feature, and cry every time there was a story about a vehicle plowing into something without braking due to cruise control being
The car crashes and burns... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So now carmakers assume liability is always through the roof and lean towards recalls much, much more often. That's as much as I can speak to without breaking Ford NDA.
I just got a Bolt (Score:5, Interesting)
I just traded in my '20 Hyundai hatchback on a '19 Bolt with the same amount of miles. And given the current severely messed up state of the car market, wound up saving quite a bit on my âtransportation.
The recall has been done, so it has a brand new battery.
People have asked 'Aren't you afraid of the fire recall?' to which my response is "You mean the firer recall on my Hyundai, for improperly hardened piston oil rings, that could make it burst into flame and detonate at speed, throwing shrapnel?"
The Bolt's battery recall was pretty spectacular in that it was all of them ever sold, but it's not like gas cars don't have similarly scary recalls.
EV criticism anxiety (Score:2)
Well, yeah, there are the haters who are going to hate on every bit of innovation and new technology.
On the other hand, batteries indeed pose challenges.
Could we agree that we are still in the Early Adopter stage and that there are some people who may benefit from holding off going out and buying one, right now?
Re: (Score:2)
Given that the general hesitancy about the Bolt due to the recall is why the prices on them haven't gone up with the rest of the car market, letting me get one at a good price, people can hold off on buying them for as long as they like!
Re: (Score:3)
An extra bonus is people like me that got a 2017 model are getting a free battery replacement which should extend the life of the car a few years
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Huh? I said I bought a Hyundai hatch and a Bolt, not a Mitsubishi hatch and a Tesla.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Right. I've owned four ICE cars since 2008 and each one has had a recall. Some were rather scary, like the potentially fatal air bags and one had pyrotechnics in the seat belts that would light the car on fire. I think the recalls are just a sign that carmakers are more aware of potential liability than they used to. Cars as a whole are safer than they were 20 years ago.
Re: (Score:2)
2020 Veloster. I paid about $24K for it new, traded it in for just over $23K, and the Bolt was $24k. I have no idea how Veloster resale values compare to other Hyundais. It's a weird car.
I generally keep my cars so long that they're worthless when I'm done, so I'm not terribly concerned about resale value. When I got the Veloster I really wanted an electric, but at the time they weren't in the budget. The current market made it feasible for me.
Had it not been for the market stuff, I would have just kept the
Explosion? (Score:4, Interesting)
>"Electric-car-battery explosions can release"
I am not sure I have read anywhere that they are "explosions" in the case of the Bolt, just fires. An explosion implies a massive outward force. I am sure there was some violence to the fires as the batteries' heat caused the container to rupture, but I don't think most people would characterize the bolt fires as explosions.
Anyway, there were, thankfully, also no injuries or deaths in the 16 fires across 141,000 cars. It is unfortunate this is likely to shake consumer confidence. Even though all car fires (in general) are not that rare (typically around 430,000 a year in the US), that includes a lot of old junkers with poor maintenance (not most very new cars) often is part of a collision. Not while not running and not moving and not in a collision, while sitting in your driveway or, much worse, in your garage.
Re:Explosion? (Score:5, Informative)
LG Chem batteries (speaking here as both the owner of a Bolt and the VP of Engineering for a company that does large scale stationary batteries, many of which are LG Chem) are particularly flammable. The NMC cells used in cars are more volatile than the BESS formulation - at this point we're no longer trying to do 1 hour BESS systems, so they need to dispatch a given MW usually for 4 hours. Even for solar smoothing that's a pretty gentle operation compared to a car - where my 66kWh battery pack in my Bolt could go from putting 90kW to absorbing 30kW in 3 seconds when I crested the top of my mountain in the Catskills.
So cars, particularly the NMC used by Chevy and the NCA used by Tesla, are going to be more flammable. For the BESS batteries we use there's a testing regime called UL9540A, and that looks at how flammable the cells, modules, and racks are, and how like a fire is to spread. But it also does something else, which is look at the LFL concentration of explosive gases off-gassed when cells hit thermal runaway, and one of the most crucial pieces of that analysis is whether we can get to a deflagration event, particularly a detonation, where "a fire is moving faster than the speed of sound". I can assure you, we have paid extra money for deflagration panels, gas sensors, and manual purge systems to lower LFL, and explosion is absolutely a possibility. If it is possible for a BESS, it is more likely for a car because the chemical formulations of a NMC for BESS are less volatile than the NMC for a car pack. It is possible that the nature of the pack container on a car does not allow the gas buildup that causes this, but I doubt that... since there's a passenger compartment right above the pack.
This is cell and pack specific. So for example, the Samsung E3 is a NMC battery that is largely immune to propagating fire. The LG Chem JH4 on the other hand results in "a puddle of molten aluminum" when it burns one vendor's container "down to the screws". As noted below, LFP is largely immune to this problem, and so is LTO, but both of those chemistries are probably not dense enough for cars even in the future, although one company in China is using LTO for buses.
Re: (Score:2)
I went with LFP for 1kwh mobile digital sign, primarily for cycle life and safety.
I Remember in my research, a Chinese manufacturer showing a video of cell safety test where the Chinese guy pulls out a 44 and shoots the battery. Both horrifying and entertaining!
Re: (Score:2)
Um, Tesla is rather famously using LFP for M3 SRs.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/2... [cnbc.com]
Re: (Score:2)
"Using" in the sense that you have a press release from them from October saying they are going to do this. Many Telsa reservation holders will refuse when they understand that it will probably end access to "ludicrous mode" and will decrease their cold weather range.
It is also unknown when they'll be able to get enough CATL cells to actually do this, since the Gigafactories don't make LFP cells. CATL cut the 2021 outlook for production from 10GWh to 3GWh which left many established BESS companies like Powi
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Future Batteries... today (Score:4, Interesting)
LiFePo4 batteries are much safer, i.e. more resistant to thermal runaway.
Also solid state lithium batteries are supposedly imminent, and will more or less solve this problem outright.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
>"LiFePo4 batteries are much safer, i.e. more resistant to thermal runaway."
Indeed. These are medically approved and we use them at work in EMR carts. The problem is that they are very heavy. That might be OK with a cart, not so much for a EV, which is already very heavy.
>"Also solid state lithium batteries are supposedly imminent, and will more or less solve this problem outright.
Yep, just "10 years away" at any point in time you name. :(
Re: (Score:2)
No, he means imminent. Solid state batteries have gone from a science problem to a manufacturing problem, and various companies are now setting up production facilities with backing from automakers. It'll take some time to scale up production and do all the necessary QA, but it's more like a 3-year thing rather than 10...
Re: (Score:2)
That may be true, but GE had "just a manufacturing problem" with delamination of their anodes in 2012 with a lithium air battery. At the 2011 NY State BESS conference NYBEST the GE guys said "you all can do what you want but in 2 years we'll put you all out of business." By 2013, the entire GE battery division was cut... to the point where after GE decided to rebuild, the current GE BESS group uses LG Chem LH4's. Just sayin'.
Re: (Score:2)
>"LiFePo4 batteries are much safer, i.e. more resistant to thermal runaway."
Indeed. These are medically approved and we use them at work in EMR carts. The problem is that they are very heavy.
They are maybe 10-20% heavier. That's not nothing but it's not a show stopper.
That might be OK with a cart, not so much for a EV, which is already very heavy.
They're in Tesla Model 3s. What?
Yep, just "10 years away" at any point in time you name.
No, they are less than 10 months away [nikkei.com].
Just googled this... (Score:5, Interesting)
...and I in no way know whether these numbers are reliable but the article talked abut 25 fires per 100k EVs sold... as opposed to 1500 fires per 100k gas engines. And 3400 fires per 100k hybrids.
Granted, a statistic per million mile or km driven would tell us more... but unless the above numbers were severely doctored, I still think this fear of car battery fires might be blown out of proportion...
Not enough data (Score:3)
Comparing decades of gasoline engine stats with a few years of EV stats should be looked at with a jaundiced eye.
Battery fires have a bigger problem in that they can't be put out easily.
Batteries also must be replaced whereas a gasoline engine can run for decades with minimal maintenance.
There is currently no recycling facility in the US for EV batteries.
Bottom line is that people are charging headlong into the technology without really thinking about it and taking a simpleton approach that it's going to ma
Re: Not enough data (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
For this, isn't both ICE and EVs dependent on other components?
I'm rather utilitarian when it comes to vehicles, which is a polite way of saying we have old vehicles.
The repair costs tend to be outside of the engine. I've had to do exhaust, gas lines, timing belts, (ICE and hybrids would both have this issue) as well as suspension, steering, brakes sensors, etc (common to any vehicle).
It's not bad
Re: (Score:2)
Or it may be largely a function of vehicle age and wear. The average age of an internal combustion vehicle on the road today is more than ten years, and only a tiny fraction of BEVs are that old. Given the effects of aging on sheaths around wires, it's plausible that BEV fires will increase significantly as vehicles and.
Re: (Score:2)
>" the article talked abut 25 fires per 100k EVs sold... as opposed to 1500 fires per 100k gas engines. And 3400 fires per 100k hybrids. Granted, a statistic per million mile or km driven would tell us more... but unless the above numbers were severely doctored, I still think this fear of car battery fires might be blown out of proportion."
More useful would also factor in age. As I posted above, somewhere, the overall car fire statistics include ALL cars and vehicles on the road. Some of them are total
Also shows Tesla advancements (Score:4, Informative)
I think more than showing EV challenges, this shows how Tesla is a bit ahead of other car makers in making reliable electric cars.
A lot of people seem to think traditional car makers can just slap together an electric car any time they want to complete with Tesla. As pretty much every attempt has shown, it's not as easy at it appears on the surface.
Yes a few Tesla batteries have caught on fire, but none just sitting there parked that I'm aware of - usually only in an extreme crash.
Re: (Score:2)
I wonder if this has something to do with using spiral cells. Most other manufacturers use prismatic cells because they are much easier to assemble into rectangular shapes and have higher packing density but one down side is either lots of radi changes in the anode and cathode which could lead to,stress or lots stacked plates which are a pain to interconnect.
Wonder if musk was accidentally a genius in this case (using an off the shelf round cell)
Not really (Score:2)
That car appears to have been charging [autoevolution.com]. Who knows what kind of dodgy charging device they were using in China.
GM told some Bolt owners not to park within 50 feet [autonews.com] of any other cars as a general rule, in case it catches fire.
As I was saying, it's not impossible with Tesla that a battery can catch on fire from some external force, but it happens much less frequency, there has been no recall over it, and Tesla does not advise you not to park next to other cars.
Re: Not really (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That car appears to have been charging [autoevolution.com].
It’s amazing that you link to an article about a black car when the car that exploded was white.
Re: (Score:2)
That car appears to have been charging [autoevolution.com].
That’s not the same car [forbes.com].
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Mod: FU.
I said no such thing, numbnuts. SuperKendall is the one assigning cause.
Re: (Score:2)
Extremely rare in Tesla vehicles at least (Score:4, Insightful)
Tesla has over 200,000 vehicles on the road in the US.
The grand total of documented battery fires while charging? 5.
How many ICE fires ignite while fueling? Over 150 *PER DAY*
Yes, GM needs to treat this seriously and correct defects. But trying to extend this as some epidemic problem with EVs is nothing but fear mongering, the data DOES NOT back it up. If anything, the data shows that ICE vehicles are FAR more dangerous.
Re: (Score:3)
Yea, did a bit of googling: From an insurance company:
Hybrid vehicles have the most vehicle fires per 100K vehicle sales, followed by gas vehicles. Despite the recent concern about electric vehicle fires, they have the fewest fires per 100K vehicle sales and had only two model recalls for fire risks in the past year.
Buyback of mine nearly complete (Score:2, Informative)
Challenges of Chevrolet compact cars (Score:2)
Quoth Wikipedia:
In October 2016, GM began production of the Chevrolet Bolt EV, the first ever affordable mass market all-electric car with a range over 200 mi (320 km).
It's not the EV of Chevrolet compact cars... it's the Chevrolet compact car of EVs. Following in the hallowed footsteps of such highly-regarded models as the Corvair, Vega, Citation, mid-1980s Nova, and so on. Let's see if the model stays in production for ten years - unlike many Chevy compacts.
Laughable FUD (Score:5, Interesting)
From a recent insurance industry tally:
Car fires by car type. Units are in fires per 100k vehicles sold (parentheses are TOTAL fires)
Hybrid: 3,475 (16,051)
Gas: 1,530 (199.533)
EV: 25 (52)
So you've got more than 2 orders of magnitude less chance of having a car fire if you drive an EV. I'll take my chances.
Source:
https://www.autoinsuranceez.co... [autoinsuranceez.com]
Best,
Lying or just off the mark? (Score:3)
Hello,
You seem to be calling the "OP" a liar--or more precisely, a "lying sack of shit". I'm not so sure he had any intent to deceive. (what's the motive for lying anyway, as opposed to simply being incomplete?) What he said was interesting--the stats seem to favor EVs. Your commentary was also added value--the stats have some built in bias. Both are informative to the reader. Neither were "lies".
And both your post and his together make for valuable perspective.
Tha
GM has a 15 year plan? I have a 15 year plan too. (Score:3)
In 15 years GM plans to be out of the business of selling vehicles that burn gasoline. Like GM I have a plan on where I will be in 15 years too. I plan to win the Super Bowl, cure cancer, write a best selling science fiction novel, then go into semi-retirement in a colony I built on Mars so I can write my best selling science non-fiction novel. I expect my goal is more likely than GM's goal.
Electric vehicles suck for towing anything, so if GM plans to sell trucks then they will be selling trucks that burn gasoline. That alone is enough to show GM will fail. We've seen some big gains on battery energy density but getting to the energy density that can replace gasoline is not possible with known physics. If they expect to discover new physics in 15 years then John Titor told them more about the future than he told the rest of us.
Hydrocarbons have nearly incredible energy density, something like 100 times that of the best rechargeable batteries on the market. Even if we can assume batteries and electric motors are 10 times more efficient than burning gasoline in an internal combustion engine there is still an order of magnitude difference. Then there is the ability of hydrocarbons through a pipe to transfer incredible amounts of energy compared to electrons down a wire. With a lightweight car and a big enough wire the difference may be tolerable. To match even 10% of how much energy flows from a pump at a filling station would require EV chargers to have wires that are impractically large and/or voltages that run so high as to be arcing hazards. Wireless charging might be practical in this case, people drive over conductive plates that are in the pavement, one under each bumper, then the charger would be flipped on and an arc would leap from each bumper to each plate.
On top of the problems of selling electric vehicles to a market that is already accustomed to the performance and convenience of a gasoline burning vehicle but there are very real issues on producing enough EVs to meet demand. 15 years is a long time, and yet likely not long enough to meet GM's goals.
What is notable about any goal 15 years out is that it's long enough out for anyone in a position to make this happen to retire. I'm reminded of candidates for POTUS giving 10 year plans on ending America's "addiction" to fossil fuels. People took JFK seriously on his "we choose to go to the moon" speech because the end goal was inside the time he'd be POTUS if elected for a second term. We should take this 15 year goal as seriously as 10 year plans from politicians that would see retirement in 8 years. That is we should not take them seriously at all. Why set goals for when your predecessor would be in office to take credit? Simple, because the expectation is the goal will not be met. Nobody in GM expects to meet this goal. If they did then they'd phrase the goal in a way that they can take credit, such as getting to 35% of all sales being EVs in 5 years, and/or a goal of 65% in 10 years. They might not even mention getting to 100% in 15 years.
If Elon Musk set goals on what products any of his companies would be offering in 15 years then I'd take him at least halfway seriously. He's young enough that the chances of him being alive then is nearly 100%, and nobody can fire Elon but Elon. The only reason to not take him seriously on a 15 year goal is because of his history of exaggerating the rate of technological development.
Re: (Score:2)
Hydrocarbons have nearly incredible energy density, something like 100 times that of the best rechargeable batteries on the market.
In a practical sense, they do not have 100 times the density. A typical car with about 45kg of fuel has roughly the same range on a single tank as a Tesla with 450kg of batteries. So the ratio is closer to 10:1, and you are out by an entire order of magnitude. It doesn't matter if hydrocarbons theoretically have greater energy density if the ICE cannot actually extract it.
Re: (Score:2)
EV ranges are now roughly equal to ICE cars. If the battery energy densities keep going up and costs keep coming down like they have, it'll be really tough for ICE to compete on any metric in five years, let alone fifteen. The idea of matching energy density with gasoline is a red herring. It doesn't matter that the battery pack might never weigh less than a full tank of gasoline. Who cares? It's not like I need to carry it on my back. The ICE itself is pretty heavy too...
GM's mistake was to go with LG as partner (Score:4, Informative)
It could have been worse. (Score:2)
on the bright side, at least they didn't choose Samsung . . .
Re: (Score:2)
America's most shit car brand was Chrysler, which now belongs to FCA.
Betting? (Score:3)
Automakers aren't "betting" on increasing demand, because it's a sure thing: the government is mandating it.
Re: (Score:2)
Exploding ICE cars! (Score:2)
A continuing challenge for ICE cars is the number of gasoline fires.
According to the National Fire Protection Association, every year more than 5000 gas station fires are reported in the US. These fires cause plenty of damage. Talking in numbers, on an average, gas station fires cause 48 civilian injuries, 2 civilian deaths, and $20 million in property damage every year.
misleading in fact, false, headline (Score:2)
which batteries exploded? There were battery fires and that is a problem, but there were no explosions of batteries. And thanks to there being no fuel tank, there were no explosions.
A fire is a different type of danger from an explosion.
It seems that the poster wanted to inflame passions against electric vehicles.
I continued to drive my 2017 Bolt EV during the period of the recall until my batteries were replaced last month.
Now if you want to talk about explosions, look back at the Ford Pinto. My fri
High dollar boom (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
it might blow up if it were a Tesla like the video linked above. No Bolt EV has exploded.
Now, maybe we should look at the track record ICE cars hmm...
Need for.. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's the opposite of the actual trends, where the battery packs are structural and becoming moreso. You're not getting what you want.
Gasoline and haz mat lincenses ... (Score:2)
The situation will change drastically as soon as a viable alternative to gasoline emerges for urban commuters.
There is hope that the next generation of the auto batteries