Challenging Tesla, Volkswagen Announces Electric SUV, Mass Production of Electric Vehicles (apnews.com) 228
An anonymous reader quotes the AP:
Volkswagen is planning to release a fully-electric SUV in China which could compete with Tesla's Model X. The German automaker said Sunday the ID. ROOMZZ will be unveiled at the upcoming Shanghai Auto Show and will be available in 2021. Volkswagen says the zero-emission vehicle can go approximately 450 kilometers (280 miles) before the battery has to be recharged.
Volkswagen also claims it will have "level 4 autonomous driving," Reuters reports, adding that this electric SUV "is the latest move in Volkswagen's aggressive growth strategy in China, where electric cars are given preferential treatment by authorities..." In fact, the company's chief executive says nearly half of VW's engineers are working on products for the China market, though the electric SUV will eventually be shipped to other markets. "We plan to produce more than 22 million electric cars in the next 10 years."
VW's head of e-mobility also tells Reuters that Volkswagen will convert eight of their factories to mass produce electric Volkswagens, and eight more factories to to mass-produce electric cars under a different brand.
Volkswagen also claims it will have "level 4 autonomous driving," Reuters reports, adding that this electric SUV "is the latest move in Volkswagen's aggressive growth strategy in China, where electric cars are given preferential treatment by authorities..." In fact, the company's chief executive says nearly half of VW's engineers are working on products for the China market, though the electric SUV will eventually be shipped to other markets. "We plan to produce more than 22 million electric cars in the next 10 years."
VW's head of e-mobility also tells Reuters that Volkswagen will convert eight of their factories to mass produce electric Volkswagens, and eight more factories to to mass-produce electric cars under a different brand.
Success! (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'm more included to congratulate Nissan and Renault. We are now seeing affordable, long range EVs and an a proliferation of public charging networks. They did a lot to promote commercial use of EVs too, especially as taxis, and made the economic case for those cars.
They demonstrated that EVs could sell as normal cars without having to have a Musk/Jobs style reality distortion field around them.
Nissan were there building nation wide charging networks before the Model S was even available. Putting EVs in the
Re:Success! (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently you missed why Musk built Tesla [archive.org]?
Musk said that Tesla has the ability to accelerate the auto industry’s progress toward the adoption of electric vehicles by 5 to 10 years. Lighting even that small fire could be very important if you consider what a decade of delay can do for climate change, he said.
So as much as you hate Musk and Tesla, give some credit where credit is due.
His plan all along was to push the major automotive companies to go electric. It looks like he succeeded.
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I know that's why Musk says he did it, and Tesla deserves some credit. But it's always Tesla getting all the credit, when actually have been able to buy a new Renault Zoe for 20k and do 180 miles on a charge (motorway driving) since before the Model 3 was available.
Any affordable EVs available today were more likely influenced by Nissan and Renault than by Tesla. I doubt VW would have released the eGolf and eUp if the Leaf/Zoe hadn't proven they were viable and in-demand. Ditto the Ioniq, which set a new st
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Look, I'm on my second Zoe since 2015, and I love it. It's a fantastic car. It demonstrates affordability in a way that the Model 3 doesn't. But this isn't a zero sum game: Tesla has obviously been hugely influential for the German car makers in particular. Yes, eGolf, but it's MEB that matters, and that was clearly more prodded along by Tesla than Renault. What Nissan/Renault did was change things in Europe, especially in creating some pull for public infrastructure and policy. I doubt we'd have the Kia et
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What I'm saying is there's plenty of credit to go round
We agree on that.
I did try the Zoe out but it was a bit small so ended up with a Leaf. Got a Niro on order now but keeping options open. For some reason we got the cheaper interior and having sat in some I'm not as enthusiastic as I was.
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Pot, meet kettle
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I'm more included to congratulate Nissan and Renault.
Why? Was their primary goal to drive heavy competition and development in renewables?
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Maybe not their goal, but it's what they ended up doing. I doubt cars like the Ioniq, Kona, Soul, Niro, eGolf, eUp, i3, e309, iMev and Polestar 2 would have existed without Nissan and Renault. Everyone would have been waiting for Tesla to demonstrate that affordable EVs were possible, profitable and desirable, and we wouldn't have vast charging networks in Europe either.
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I'm more included to congratulate Nissan and Renault.
Indeed. I could stretch to a Telsa, but I chose to pay for a used leaf at a fraction of the cost. Still so much better than an ICE car for my short commute and day to day use. Making efficient cars that are available to most people is good work.
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Using fossil fuels directly for transport creates more CO2 than using electric vehicles, thus it's a win. Batteries are recycled now, and there is more incentive in a mass market. Fossil fueled cards cause localised pollution. Batteries in cars are a way to store energy overnight, so if solar is putting out plenty during the day and your car is at work, hello charging. So electric cars help. In terms of the replacement cost, Nissan, Renault and others charge a monthly fee which funds battery replacements, s
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What we really need are advances in battery energy storage. If we can get the energy per unit volume within an order of magnitude of gasoline, propane, or other fossil fuels, transportation would be radically changed. No more IC engines, and cars can be redesigned from the ground up better using space that the engine, fuel delivery, and exhaust systems once took up.
What electric cars allow is for them to be fueled from anything. For example, in Canada, it is mainly hydro. In Texas, solar/wind, perhaps b
Battery tech is advancing (Score:5, Insightful)
What we really need are advances in battery energy storage.
They'll happen but it's going to take time. The good news is that batteries are already more than good enough that we could switch many/most cars from ICEs to EVs today with only modest changes to habits and infrastructure. Basically if you have a garage and don't need to routinely travel longer than 200 miles in a single trip, you can switch to an EV today.
No more IC engines, and cars can be redesigned from the ground up better using space that the engine, fuel delivery, and exhaust systems once took up.
I don't think ICEs will ever go away completely but I can see a day when they are a rarity or at least a minority. That's going to take a few decades to get to however. There are some use cases where ICEs just make more sense than pure EVs. But even the ICEs that remain I think will mostly be electrified because it will make economic sense to do so.
If we can get the energy per unit volume within an order of magnitude of gasoline, propane, or other fossil fuels, transportation would be radically changed.
You are measuring the wrong thing. What matters is usable energy/power per kilogram for the whole drivetrain. You are making the mistake of comparing the energy content of a volume of gasoline with the energy content volume of a battery but that's a flawed comparison. Gasoline is useless without a very large and very heavy engine to turn it into useful work. Just using the volumetric energy content of gasoline doesn't tell you anything really useful because the liquid does nothing by itself. You need to know how much the whole system weighs, how efficient it is at turning that energy into useful work, and how much it costs to do that. While there are some limitations and caveats, existing EVs today already have substantially better fuel economy for a given power and weight output for a wide variety of use cases. My Chevy Bolt EV has more torque than my pickup truck, vastly better fuel economy, comparable range (about 238 vs 275-320 miles) and only weighs about 300kg less. A Telsa Model X actually weighs more than my pickup and has more power, more torque, FAR better fuel economy, comparable range, etc.
And the good news is that battery technology is going to continue to get better. ICE technology is close to as good as it will ever get. An ICE produces more heat than it does useful work and there is no way to change that. Given that EVs are already matching or exceeding ICE performance in many cases and have lots of room to improve as battery tech improves, the future seems dim for ICEs in the long run.
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> If we can get the energy per unit volume within an order of magnitude of gasoline, propane, or other fossil fuels, transportation would be radically changed.
That would be amazing, but not really necessary. If to consider that an electric vehicle is typically three times more efficient (or more), you only need a third of the total energy on board to get the same performance.
If you're not pissing away 4/5th of your energy stores, you don't need to take as much with you.
=Smidge=
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300 miles at 80 mph? Is there a Tesla that can do it? Certainly no other mass-produced BEV can, 200 is about max at those speeds for Hyundai Kona, Audi e-tron etc. Then, at least outside the Tesla-world, you need extreme luck to find a quick charger (which is really about 200 mph/70 kW charging for Hyundai Kona, if you aren't limited by the charger to 50 kW), have to start charging at around 10 % battery remaining (so if the charger is occupied/out-of-order/whatever, you only have 20 miles left to find the
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Kona will get you maybe 230 if you hammer it, with a 64kWh usable pack. Extrapolating an 80kWh pack in a similarly efficient car should do the trick, certainly no more than 100kWh. Jaguar, Audi and Tesla all have cars with that class of battery, not to mention BYD and several others in China.
So really it's just a question of waiting for the cost to come down. The actual tech is fine.
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Biofuels are an ecological disaster, and can't scale to any appreciable fraction of fuel usage.
What we should be doing is turning atmospheric carbon into ammonia, and burning it in our existing engines.
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ugh. atmospheric nitrogen, and water. not carbon, obviously.
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Remember when VW was fined for scamming the EPA emissions? Remember their fine to the US government was to invest in electric cars? So their success is due to the US government.
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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towing? (Score:2)
Re:towing? (Score:5, Informative)
Not a VW of course, but tow-rated EVs do exist: Rivian is the example that comes to mind;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
5-ton towing capacity, 400+ miles non-towing so depending on *what* you're towing and where, at least 200+ miles. Pretty respectable TBH. Estimated base price ~$68K (without EV rebates) which is pretty competitive given the performance numbers.
=Smidge=
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Maybe watch the video? There's an SUV and a pickup version with the same drivetrain.
So yes, it's an SUV.
=Smidge=
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Yes I agree that this is the kind of vehicle we need. I'd be interested in seeing how it actually works for offroad use against ICE SUVs.
This kind of vehicle would make EVs more mainstream. Kind of disappointing it is so expensive; I couldn't afford a $70K vehicle and they have no plans to come to Canada.
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This kind of vehicle would make EVs more mainstream. Kind of disappointing it is so expensive; I couldn't afford a $70K vehicle and they have no plans to come to Canada.
Hmmm, perhaps if they have a black smoke generator?
Actually, I agree - my ideal vehicle is a trail rated EV Jeep.
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my ideal vehicle is a trail rated EV Jeep
That sounds almost as useful as a rockcrawler with no reverse...
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my ideal vehicle is a trail rated EV Jeep
That sounds almost as useful as a rockcrawler with no reverse...
Now that's interesting - Should I just take your pronouncement on faith, or do you have some good analysis to back that up?
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> I don't understand why they have to make the fronts of these vehicles so goofy
For the leaf, I understand that their problem was that the car was so quiet that you heard wind noise that would otherwise be drowned out by the drive train noise. Hence the bug eye light covers, which deflect the wind to minimize wind noise inside the car.
But in general, I agree, they need to learn to make them look normal. The new leaf looks a lot better. The Teslas look ok, but most others are plain ugly.
Re:towing? (Score:5, Insightful)
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> The pickup you can't put an 8x4 sheet of something in.
I've seen more pickup trucks that can't do this than those that can, so that's not entirely an EV thing. With the tailgate down, the bed is 4'-6" wide by 6'-10" long which isn't much shorter than the F150 unless you get the long bed option. In other words, it's pretty average for a crew cabin pickup.
In terms of total storage, the pickup version has:
330 liters (11.6 cu.ft.) "Frunk" (Storage under the front hood)
350 liters (12.4 cu.ft.) "Gear Tunnel"
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Just like any other vehicle, you can just remove the spare tire and store other things in that space. It's entirely a matter of preference and calculated risk.
It's an alternative to mounting the spare underneath the vehicle like most pickups, which makes that volume is completely unusual for general storage.
=Smidge=
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Hint: it's more about image than actual function.
You're partially correct and completely clueless at the same time: they don't buy it to haul around plywood; they buy it to look like they can. I.E., it's not about the capabilities; it's about the perception of capabilities.
The criticism stands.
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Everyone I know that has a pickup truck actually uses it for a pickup truck; sorry don't live in your world. Not sure what you are talking about, the vast majority of F150s have boxes plenty big enough for an 8x4 sheet
Where the heck do you live? Here in Texas, where the pickup is king, an 8' bed is a unicorn. No one is hauling 4x8 sheets in a pickup: those come to work sites on real trucks. Even 6.5' beds, which can carry a 4x8 sheet with the tailgate down, are rare.
Pickups are mostly 4-door, 5.5' bed, especially work trucks. Usually a lockbox taking up half the short bed, to carry the actual tools needed, and just a bit of space to haul something unusual when needed.
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I can currently see about a dozen F-150 out the windows of my house. About half are work trucks (lots of houses going up), the other half in driveways. 0 of them have an 8' bed. I can't say I've never seen one, but they are quite the rare sight (you do occasionally see a bigger model pickup with an 8' bed, but those seem to be status symbols or mudding trucks, not practical trucks).
But then, I'm just at the edge of rural Texas - off in the country it might be different, Are you in a rural area by any ch
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More likely it's a difference in culture between areas. I just looked up that the longest bed you could get on the F-150 from 2009-2014 was 1/4" short of 8', [nerd]so technically there were no 8' F-150 beds.[/nerd] However, I suspect that's the actual minimum bed length for 4'x8' lumber to lie flat.
I've never understood the appeal for the non-practical truck, myself. When I was young small trucks were dirt cheap, but US fuel economy regs caused US manufacturers to drop all their fuel efficient light tru
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That's not an SUV, it's a pickup with rear seating.
If someone actually made an electric(or even hybrid) pickup, they could have my money. All of it. Seems like the bed of a pickup would be the perfect place to store a large battery, especially in the US where most pickup owners only do some light hauling at best.
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Nobody tows anything with an SUV
And China only, so it'll be a small SUV
Maybe you were wondering about the Rivian pickup truck.
Oh, so this is an "SV" then....
Yes people tow with SUVs (Score:2)
Nobody tows anything with an SUV
That's simply not true. I live in an area where people routinely tow with SUVs of every description. Equipment trailers, horses, boats, etc. I see trailers hooked up to SUVs literally daily. Sure there are a lot of people that don't tow with SUVs but that doesn't mean nobody does. Close friend of mine works in skilled trades and has a trailer he tows behind an SUV to every job site.
Marketing hand jobs (Score:5, Insightful)
Volkswagen is planning to release a fully-electric SUV in China which could compete with Tesla's Model X.
Let's see. No pictures, no specs, no prototypes, going to announce it and have it for sale within 18 months but not in any of the mature car markets against ICE competition. But we're supposed to believe it will be a direct competitor to the Model X. Riiiiight... Sounds like vaporware and marketing bullshit to me.
The German automaker said Sunday the ID. ROOMZZ will be unveiled at the upcoming Shanghai Auto Show and will be available in 2021.
Seriously? They named it "ROOMZZ"? That sounds like a cell phone from 15 years ago or a sound my daughter would make to imitate a car noise.
Volkswagen also claims it will have "level 4 autonomous driving," Reuters reports, adding that this electric SUV "is the latest move in Volkswagen's aggressive growth strategy in China, where electric cars are given preferential treatment by authorities...
Yeah yeah, talk is cheap. Tesla is selling very good EVs today. VW isn't - their current offerings are unimpressive. Their Audi and Porsche subsidiaries are promising cars with promising specs but I can't buy them today. All I'm hearing from the traditional automakers is a bunch of weasel word promises that rarely seem to result in a car I can buy. When they do make one it's almost always a pathetic compliance car which won't appeal to the general public.
I own a Chevy Bolt EV which is a good car but it came out 3 years ago and GM hasn't meaningfully updated it or come out with another EV of note since and that doesn't look likely to change any time soon. Ford hasn't sold an EV of any description. Toyota is busy with the delusion that hydrogen fuel cells are the future. Nissan has the Leaf which isn't as good as the Bolt EV much less any Tesla and nothing else. BMW has the remarkably ugly and overpriced i3. Most of the EVs you can buy are little ugly hatchbacks with pathetic range and poor performance. (see Nissan Leaf, Honda Fit EV, BMW i3, VW Golf EV, etc)
VW is talking a lot of shit about EVs after getting their hand slapped over lying about their diesel products. Two questions come to mind. 1) since they lied about the diesel products, why should I believe anything they claim about electric ones? 2) Where are the vehicles they keep promising? They say they are investing all these billions of dollars with no cars to sell and yet Telsa has been selling cars to the public for about a decade now. If I was a shareholder I'd be pissed. Say what you want about Tesla and all their faults, at least they are actually making cars that people want to buy and not just a marketing hand job to pretend like they care about EVs.
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2) Where are the vehicles they keep promising?
Even more to the point, where do they plan to find the batteries??
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They say they are investing all these billions of dollars with no cars to sell
What does it mean when a major company has invested billions of dollars, yet the only the thing they have to show for it is a shiny marketing blurb? Someone, somewhere is getting very rich off VW's smoke and mirrors campaign
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Seriously? They named it "ROOMZZ"? That sounds like a cell phone from 15 years ago or a sound my daughter would make to imitate a car noise.
And? That's better worse than what? The most popular electric car in Europe is named Zoe. From the same company that brought you the Twizzy and the Twingo. A popular city car is called ForFour, and ForTwo depending on how many seats it has. That's to say nothing of American ingenuity naming their car "Ka". Hell some car companies openly mock themselves in their own ads like the quite popular Dacia Duster. In Germany they are running the advert: "What car does you father drive?" "Dass da!" (German for "this
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This reads like someone who doesn't understand just how different the European and US car markets are. The European market sells gazillions of hatchbacks, and while US consumers may find them ugly, European consumers love them. They're wildly popular. Ranges of under 200 miles work particularly well in Europe, where hatchbacks are often used almost exclusively as city runabouts, driven for well under 20 miles a day.
You also come across as naive about car platforms. VW has been investing billions in MEB. It'
Yes short ranges are a problem (Score:3)
This reads like someone who doesn't understand just how different the European and US car markets are. The European market sells gazillions of hatchbacks, and while US consumers may find them ugly, European consumers love them.
I'm well aware of the differences and I make car parts for both markets. However there are attractive hatchbacks and there are ugly ones. Most EVs made so far fall into the ugly category. Have you actually seen the BMW i3 or the first gen Nissan Leaf? Wow are they ugly. If you think otherwise then I think you need new glasses.
Ranges of under 200 miles work particularly well in Europe, where hatchbacks are often used almost exclusively as city runabouts, driven for well under 20 miles a day.
Ranges under 200 miles work fine in the US too but nobody wants a car with less range that that anyway. People in Europe buy cars that go quite a lot further than 100 miles too.
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You may think an i3 is ugly. I may think an i3 is ugly. But they're pretty successful cars -- a slow burn but it's now selling in reasonable numbers in Europe. And the Leaf sold well despite its looks. I won't argue that Teslas are all much more beautiful though. (I happen to think my Renault Zoe is quite attractive, but not everyone agrees)
You missed my point about range anxiety and the difference between the US and European markets. Range anxiety is less acute in European markets, because consumers are mo
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Their MEB platform is well known (Score:2)
Ford (Score:5, Informative)
For a smaller manufacturer focusing mainly on the cheaper half of the market, like Ford, it is hard to justify large investments in EVs not (yet) bought by their typical customer that won't be profitable for some years.
Are you seriously describing Ford as a small manufacturer? Ford is one of the 5 biggest automakers [wikipedia.org] on the planet. They are huge by any reasonable description.
Ford make their money selling affordable B and C segment cars and margins are razor thin.
What are you talking about? Ford makes their money selling large pickups and SUVs. You clearly haven't looked at their financials statements. They lose money (and lots of it) on smaller passenger cars which is why they recently announced they were getting out of that market segment [nbcnews.com].
They have also lost a lot of market share because of uncompetitive products and questionable reliability and now Brexit is threatening the one market where they are reasonably successful, so I can imagine large investments in EVs are not the top priority at Ford.
The UK market is NOT a big market for Ford and Brexit only really matters to them insofar as it affects the global economy. Ford only sold about 375K vehicles [marklines.com] in Britain in 2018 versus about 6 million vehicles sold worldwide. Any company that is not investing heavily in EVs already is playing a very dangerous game where they are basically hoping the technology will fail.
They will get to it when the EV market is more mature.
Any company that waits that long will almost certainly lose massive market share. They won't be able to get batteries at a competitive price and their technology will be one or more generations behind the curve. Playing wait and see is a huge risk when it comes to a technology shift like we are seeing with EVs.
Falling behind (Score:5, Informative)
found the guy that paid too much for tesla stock.
Cute. Of course I'm on record multiple times here on slashdot saying that I wouldn't touch TSLA with a barge pole. WAY overvalued. The company is a good company but the stock price lost any tether to reality some time ago. That has nothing at all to do with the quality, capabilities, and popularity of their cars. They are already the top selling luxury car maker in the US [cleantechnica.com], outselling BMW, Mercedes, Lexus and Audi. In fact they sell as many cars as BMW and Mercedes combined in the US. That doesn't happen by accident.
stock that will nosedive with traditional automakers getting into the game, hardcore... with their massively larger manufacturing capacity and a century of automotive manufacturing experience over their upstart competition that's still operating like a 'start up' instead of a legitimate contender, and run by a buffoon that can't keep his fucking mouth shut.
I work in the auto industry making wiring for both ICE and EV automobiles. While the big auto companies are quite capable in many ways as you say, they also by and large have no idea what to do about EVs and they aren't taking them very seriously to date. We make parts for the Chevy Bolt EV and I've seen first hand their project management and it's not impressive. They are trying very hard not to cannibalize their current car sales and in the process they are failing to invest in the future of cars which increasingly appears to be EVs. They haven't invested seriously in battery tech, they aren't making big investments in EV infrastructure, most of the EVs they have made have been half-assed compliance cars with shitty range and poor features. Explain to me how you think they are going to suddenly magically figure out the formula for making a good EV without actually making any. How are they going to compete with Tesla or other companies that invested early when they have a substantial advantage in battery cost and supply and performance?
It's not too late yet for the big auto companies to get in the game but they had better do so fairly soon. (soon meaning serious products within the next 5-10 years with big investment starting NOW) If they wait much longer than that, they'll have basically ceded big market share to Tesla and any other car maker that does take EVs seriously. When EVs reach a tipping point there will be some big auto companies that take the train to bankruptcy-ville if they aren't working hard on EVs now.
the changes that happened in the fallout of the 'emissions scandal' is the best thing to happen to the industry since the assembly line.
I hope you are right but I doubt it. VW is run by some seriously ethically challenged people. They knew what they were doing was wrong and did it anyway. Same people who green-lit the diesel scandal are in charge today. No reason to believe they have suddenly learned how to be ethical or that they seriously care about EVs. I'd be happy to be wrong but there is little evidence to suggest I am to date.
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Might I add that GM already went bankrupt once and the other guys were close. There are many reasons, but none as substantial as a shift to electrification. The ICE is the core of their business and a major differentiator. I think there's a real good chance they will go under or not exist as we know them today.
Luxury is many things (Score:3)
Indeed, it happens only by redefining 'luxury' to equal 'expensive to buy' and by only looking at the country where Tesla happens to be from and where it is much more popular than elsewhere.
I didn't define the term luxury car and Tesla's sell well around the world, not just in the US. If you think Tesla's aren't luxury cars then you have no idea what the term means. Luxury comes in many forms but only two factors are universal. Cost and brand. Tesla has both - ergo it is a luxury brand. Your personal opinion of the products is irrelevant. Quality, reliability, comfort, and other factors can contribute but do not necessarily define luxury. A Lamborghini is obviously a luxury car but if y
EVs versus ICEs (Score:3)
Right. I'm apparently a Tesla fanatic despite buying an EV from a direct competitor. [/sarcasm] You are an idiot and missing the big picture. Evidently you have a raging hate boner for Elon Musk which is bizarre but ultimately unimportant.
I don't care if you like Tesla or not. I don't care if you like Musk or not. I don't own a Tesla and have no plans to get one. I don't own the stock either. Tesla is merely an example. The simple fact is that Tesla is the ONLY significant car company taking EVs truly seriously, selling actually good vehicles in big numbers. They have proven the demand is there for a good quality EV. All the announcements from the big auto companies to date are merely sound and fury signifying nothing. They have close to no products worth mentioning on the market despite their claims of investing billions in electrification.
Now that I own an EV (again, not a Tesla) I understand why they are better in so many ways than ICE vehicles. EVs have plenty of room to get better as battery tech progresses. ICE vehicles are about as good as they are ever going to get. That fact alone should be keeping any CEO of a company that makes their money primarily on ICE vehicles up at night because the future very clearly seems to be in EVs. EVs can get better. ICEs cannot. The EV technology is already just better. They accelerate better, have more torque, are quieter, are FAR more fuel efficient, require FAR less maintenance, they are cheaper and easier to refuel for most use cases. Given a choice I'm never going to buy a non electrified car again.
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Don't tell us that EV technology is better. It has a lot of catching up to do.
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Not that much better
https://www.spiegel.de/auto/ak... [spiegel.de]
VW is not (yet) in the EV market (Score:3)
VW makes cars, too. EV and ICE. By the millions. And they tend to have a much better track record of launching vehicles on-time, and in all promised configurations, unlike Tesla.
Name one EV that VW currently sells to the general public that is remotely competitive with anything Tesla sells. Or name one that sells in numbers competitive with Tesla. I'll wait....
...Crickets...
That's what I thought.
Yes VW makes cars. VW has made a handful of shitty, short range, compliance car EVs that almost nobody wants to buy. They've promised a lot and delivered approximately nothing to date. Maybe that will change but until it actually does I'll take Tesla's (admittedly spotty) record on E
Annotated version (Score:5, Informative)
Immediately contradicted by the subsequent line that says "concept car". I'm sure they'll release "something" eventually.
Place your bets that like every single other "electric SUV" apart from the Model X, it's simply a moderate-sized 5-seater with "SUV styling".
I too name vehicles after letters that I draw in Scrabble.
Don't strain yourself with the rush there, VW.
Ignoring the constant stream of "actual range being vastly less than the promised concept range" vehicles that we've been getting from European automakers, China measures ranges on the laughably lax NEDC cycle that gives grossly inflated range figures.
A technology which VW is a clear leader in ;) (/snark)
Speaking of that, they're already back to their old ways, trying to cheat the new WLTP standards [handelsblatt.com]. This time, the cheat is just the opposite - trying to make their emissions look bad, so that their reductions targets over the coming years will be less stringent. So they've been doing things like testing cars with depleted batteries and disabled engine start-stop systems to make the cars burn more and emit more.
Please try harder than you've tried previously.
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Immediately contradicted by the subsequent line that says "concept car". I'm sure they'll release "something" eventually.
Place your bets that like every single other "electric SUV" apart from the Model X, it's simply a moderate-sized 5-seater with "SUV styling".
I too name vehicles after letters that I draw in Scrabble.
Don't strain yourself with the rush there, VW.
Ignoring the constant stream of "actual range being vastly less than the promised concept range" vehicles that we've been getting from European automakers, China measures ranges on the laughably lax NEDC cycle that gives grossly inflated range figures.
A technology which VW is a clear leader in ;) (/snark)
Speaking of that, they're already back to their old ways, trying to cheat the new WLTP standards [handelsblatt.com]. This time, the cheat is just the opposite - trying to make their emissions look bad, so that their reductions targets over the coming years will be less stringent. So they've been doing things like testing cars with depleted batteries and disabled engine start-stop systems to make the cars burn more and emit more.
Please try harder than you've tried previously.
SUVs are an American niche market for the most part and as such they are uninteresting for the future of the EV. Whoever wins the electric car race and becomes the 'Android' of electric cars with a huge market share is the company or companies that can produce a slick small to medium sized electric family car with decent range, a decent set of features and that is cheap enough to be an affordable hit in China/India and other emerging economies, think Toyota Aygo/Yaris/Corolla. Also, I don't think consumers
SUVs are not a niche market (Score:2)
SUVs are an American niche market for the most part and as such they are uninteresting for the future of the EV.
I think Ford and GM will be VERY surprised to hear that. In 2015 worldwide SUV sales were approximately 20 million units [wikipedia.org]. If you think that is a niche market, you have a very curious definition of the term niche.
Also, I don't think consumers are going to care much about self driving in the near term at least it's an option most of them will be willing to dispense with.
It's a moot discussion because any reasonable semblance of a fully autonomous self driving car that could be sold to the public in volume is still quite a few years off. (meaning a car that technically doesn't need a steering wheel or a human to touch any controls ever) At least 10-15 in my opini
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I too name vehicles after letters that I draw in Scrabble.
So you're the idiot that named the Ford "Ka" ?
Re:Annotated version (Score:4, Informative)
2008 just called. They want you to write for TTAC's "Tesla Deathwatch".
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Very few people can afford $60,000+ EVs
and yet, they can't make them fast enough. The fact that every single Tesla model vehicle is sold out in advance and they have a significant backlog means there's lot of of people will to buy $60K+ EV's. And judging by the all the Audi, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari etc. etc. cars being sold every day, I'd say there's a lot of people willing to pay $60K+ for a car, regardless of brand.
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Very few people can afford $60,000+ EVs
and yet, they can't make them fast enough. The fact that every single Tesla model vehicle is sold out in advance and they have a significant backlog means there's lot of of people will to buy $60K+ EV's. And judging by the all the Audi, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari etc. etc. cars being sold every day, I'd say there's a lot of people willing to pay $60K+ for a car, regardless of brand.
So a bunch of rich people are ripping these things off the assembly line as fast as they are making them the same goes for Rolls Royce and Bentley. All that means is that the richest 10% percent are doing fine financially, it does not mean that $35K+ EV (now that Musk is pushing their Model 3) are the way to grow into a significant player on the automobile market, Apple found that out with their smartphones. The one who dominates the market is the one who corners the $10-25.000 EV market because that is whe
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Is that why there are thousands of them, sitting lots, getting recharged with diesel generators [thetruthaboutcars.com], because they cannot sell them fast enough? Oh, that's right - you said make them fast enough. Unfortunately, that's not what matters - sales is what matters, not necessarily production rate.
Wow!! You found one Tesla dealer who is recharging their cars with a diesel generator. Therefore all Tesla owners must be recharging their cars with Diesel Generators, what a bunch of hypocrites!!! You just won the fossil fuel vs electric cars debate single-handily with one link to an article in the automotive press equivalent of the Daily Mail. We are all in awe of your debating and reasoning skills.
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Tesla will be bankrupt in 5 years. Pretty sure VW will still be around.
You're silly. Tesla is doing all the fundamental technology stuff right, better than any other company. That will carry them through a lot of possible problems, including self-inflicted ones.
Tesla more than any other company has invested with the long term in mind. They have their own factory for battery cells. They have their own network of charging stations. Other companies are making big promises... VW promised that it's helping
good luck to them (Score:5, Insightful)
are these real 450km or is that they wishful thinking again?
we all know VAG is a bit generous with numbers...
Re:good luck to them (Score:5, Funny)
Driven by a spherical car in a vacuum.
The numbers would be flaccid if VAG didn't tend to elongate when properly stimulated.
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we all know VAG is a bit generous with numbers...
Well, their former head - outsed by Winterkporn - just bought the world's most expensive car ever, so... you could say that.
Electrogate ahead... (Score:5, Interesting)
Their diesel NOX scandal took years off people's lives. NOW they have the perfect combo of large population base, thriving market and regime in which VW are most comfortable to exploit. The VW solution doesn't make a dent in pollution, smog or improve China's air quality but they need a life line.
Glad its not our turn again.
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A concept? (Score:3)
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VW introduces more concept EVs than any other maker. Maybe someday they'll start introducing real models that ship.
About time (Score:2)
Only fossils still use fossil fuels for vehicles.
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It's hard to see a Volvo brand as less expensive than a VW-branded vehicle, unless they're trying to strip it of Volvo-like (near) luxury in an attempt to cut costs so that it's not more expensive than an actual Volvo.
It's always amazing to me that the company that gave us the 240DL, the official vehicle of democratic socialism, is now mostly a luxury car company.
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The Volvo V40 is only £23.5k, well under their target price. In fact it's similar to the Kia Niro or Hyundai Kona fossil versions, so add in a similar size battery and ~35k seems perfectly possible.
Also remember that Volvo is owned by Geely and probably has access to Chinese manufacturing for battery packs at very competitive prices. Chinese and Korean battery packs have already overtaken Nissan and Tesla on cost and warranty.
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Level 4 autonomy sounds impressive
Only to the likes of you, bub.
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Only going to happen if you can convince companies to forgo their prime directive: Make money.
It is the biggest market in the world, most companies would happily sacrifice their entire market share of the North American market if it meant they got a share half the size (in percentage terms) of the Chinese market.
On the same token, corporations only care about human rights records if it affects their bottom line. If someone can connect those human rights records to the corporate profits somehow, then they'll
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Reliability may also be a strong incentive to choose a more expensive option over a Tesla.
So basically anything other than a VW or a Volvo...
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Small cars are dangerous on the highway where there is weather.
Snort. Large vehicles are far more dangerous in weather.
Skinny tires and light frames get pulled around in the snow and wind.
Cars don't even have frames any more, they have unit bodies. Even some full-sized SUVs now use unibody designs. Large vehicles like trucks and buses are still built on frames, though. They have flat sides and lots of surface area, so they tend to be highly affected by wind. When's the last time you heard about the wind blowing a car over? It happens to big rigs all the time. And in the snow? They have less contact patch per pound than a smaller vehicle
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I see people driving well below the speed limit all the time in small cars, on snowy days, on windy days, I can only assume they are afraid of the weather because the car doesn't really handle it correctly.
I see stupid people. I see them all the time. They just drive around like everyone else. Most of them don't even know they're stupid. Seriously though, I don't know why so many people are allergic to just pulling over and letting someone else go by. I am guilty of waiting until someone gets up on me pretty close, but I know how to drive a line and often lose people in the twisty parts even when (as recently) I'm driving a Sprinter and they're in a car. Most people don't know how to drive, and are afraid to
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Those companies won't compete in such a tiny market.
They know there's not much profit in it, and that what profit there is will be shared among them all, and be at the expense of their ICE engines for the next few years (at least).
When people *stop* buying 10-20 times as many ICE cars each year, then they'll roll out the models they have on standby and ramp up production, and likely not before.
It's a niche market, an expensive market, and a profit-less market at the moment, and as soon as one jumps on the b