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Power Businesses The Almighty Buck Transportation United States Technology

Solid-State Battery Startup Claims Breakthrough For Electric Vehicles (electrek.co) 142

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Electrek: Now a startup developing all solid-state batteries (ASSB) secured backing from several high-profile investors, including several automakers, as it claims a breakthrough for the technology that will enable better electric cars. Solid Power is a Colorado-based startup that spun out of a battery research program at the University of Colorado Boulder. The company claims to have achieved a breakthrough by incorporating a high-capacity lithium metal anode in lithium batteries -- creating a solid-state cell with an energy capacity "2-3X higher" than conventional lithium-ion. They have already attracted investments from important companies, like A123 Systems and more recently BMW, which planned to validate their battery technology for the automotive market. Now they are announcing this week the addition Hyundai, Samsung and several others to the list as they close a $20 million series A round of financing. They are now working with two automakers and two battery cell suppliers for the auto industry. Some of the advantages that they claim their technology has over current batteries, as mentioned in their press release, include:

- 2-3x higher energy vs. current lithium-ion
- Substantially improved safety due to the elimination of the volatile, flammable, and corrosive liquid electrolyte as used in lithium-ion
- Low-cost battery-pack designs through: Minimization of safety features and elimination of pack cooling
- Greatly simplified cell, module, and pack designs through the elimination of the need for liquid containment
- High manufacturability due to compatibility with automated, industry-standard, roll-to-roll production

Solid Power plans to use the funds from its Series A investment to "scale-up production via a multi-MWh roll-to-roll facility, which will be fully constructed and installed by the end of 2018 and fully operational in 2019." The battery cells produced at this new facility "will be utilized for preliminary qualification of the company's solid-state cells for multiple markets including automotive, aerospace and defense."
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Solid-State Battery Startup Claims Breakthrough For Electric Vehicles

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  • Saving (Score:2, Interesting)

    Wish I get a $ every time a breakthrough is announced within these pages.
    • If I got about $100 for every battery breakthrough article, another $100 for every "future of storage, 1 quadrillion bytes in your thumbnail!", I would probably have more than enough money, to buy myself enough batteries and hard drives, to never, ever care again.

      At least 5 to 20 of these articles a year for the time I've been using the internet (20+ years)

      • by mentil ( 1748130 )

        I'm still waiting for those 1TB optical disks that've been promised for 15+ years.

        • I remember the C3D one, I was still at my first job I think, over 18 / 19 years ago.
          Purple lasers or some ridiculous thing.

        • > I'm still waiting for those 1TB optical disks that've been promised for 15+ years.

          This link is the 3.3TB version. Near the bottom you'll see buttons for 1.5TB, 600GB, etc.
          https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c... [bhphotovideo.com]

          The are used to replace tape drives, primarily enterprise backup and archiving.

          Blu-ray video means millions of those discs are produced, so economic of scale make the Blu-ray format the economical one. Blu-ray is currently available in 25GB, 50GB, and 100GB.

    • I have some sympathy for your skepticism, but this one does seem real. They are not talking about lab experiments. They are actually building full scale production facilities. I do not think they would be doing this to manufacture vaporware.

      • I do not think they would be doing this to manufacture vaporware.

        It's not being vaporware that killed all the other "breakthroughs" but rather complications/disadvantages that arose during the path towards large-scale manufacturing. For example, how do these batteries respond to damage and/or age? (rapid discharge can be really bad even without caustic/flammable chemicals) How rapidly do they charge? How rapidly does capacity deplete? etc There are many, many ways in which battery technology can fail.

        I'll agree that this does perhaps seem further along that path than

      • by torkus ( 1133985 )

        No, they're talking about building a MW/h scale demonstration plant. That's not commercial (full) scale which is in the 100's, if not 1000's of MW/h.

        Plenty of other vaporware items got funding to build their demo rounds of equipment. That's how people scam and skim their millions of personal profit and run away. Maybe this is legit. Hell, I hope it's legit. But based on the previous track record of...well everyone, breakthroughs like this simply do not happen.

        Battery technology isn't just a simple capa

  • How do these compare to the Goodenough solid-state batteries?

  • At 3x higher mass or volume that would be boring.
    Or did they possibly mean energy density?

    • by gl4ss ( 559668 )

      possibly.

      1/3rd of the price at same weight would already be something.
      even electrek.co advices to remain skeptical about new battery innovations, and that sites trash.

    • aw you're on to them, okay they duct taped 3 of the other guy's batteries together

    • At 3x higher mass or volume that would be boring. Or did they possibly mean energy density?

      They mean "Look at us! Invest in this company so I can pay my mortgage!"

      This is a PR stunt of an article that literally is nonsense, but sounds to the nontechnical like something worthwhile. This is just an attempt to garner some venture capital to keep the lights on and pay salaries is my guess. Where they might have some interesting ideas, they sure didn't promise anything solid with the 2-3 times whatever statement, which is weasel wording if you ask me. It would let the VC money believe something that

  • where's ours? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by swell ( 195815 ) <jabberwock@poetic.com> on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @01:06AM (#57295180)

    How much did taxpayers invest in the research at University of Colorado Boulder? How much can they expect in return? Will they be reimbursed by the IPO or do they have to wait until the profits roll in?

    Research is typically paid for by you and I through our taxes. When a great discovery is made, all the profits go to private parties. When do we get reimbursed?

    • When do we get reimbursed?

      April 15th.

    • Re: (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Get bent.

      Colorado ranks pretty freaking close to last place nationally in public education funding [denverpost.com] and that includes its public universities, [colorado.gov] which run almost entirely on grants, endowments and tuition.

    • Have a look at the one of the graphics showing the amount of energy loss when using solar energy with 1. hydrogen-driven cars vs. 2. BEVs.
      You might not be that convinced about hydrogen anymore!

      https://phys.org/news/2006-12-hydrogen-economy-doesnt.html

      An important factor in the discussion hydrogen vs. BEV, however, is the consideration/chance whether the BEV's will be capable of storing the excess solar energy during the daytime for the time it is needed in the evenings.....
    • When do we get reimbursed?

      Did you post this from your iPad made possible by the developments and R&D from Universities? You get paid by availability not directly.

      Yay Socialism.

      • He didn't get that iPad or its battery for free, he paid money for it. There is no hidden value in technology.

        • He didn't get that iPad or its battery for free, he paid money for it. There is no hidden value in technology.

          He was able to pay money for it. Now just imagine what he would have paid had each manufacturer had to independently R&D that product and lock it up under patents.

          In the mean time the fundamental research for the product he is using is published for all to read. Can you say the same about any private R&D short of reading convoluted patents?

          • I'm not arguing for private R&D, I'm arguing that there is no value paid back when the fruits of public research are privatized, even if some hypothetical scenario involving private research could be worse.

            If you think it's published for all to read, check out how much subscriptions to journals from Elsevier & friends cost.

            • I'm arguing that there is no value paid back when the fruits of public research are privatized

              Except the results are rarely if ever privatised without actual publication of the science first. You seem to misunderstand exactly what is happening. Once published the researchers sometimes spin-off a company with their discovery which may or may not get bought by someone else. You don't get any less for your money as a result.

              What you DO get is someone actively promoting a product rather than a throwaway research paper that will gather dust in the annals of scientific history.

              • Once published the researchers sometimes spin-off a company with their discovery which may or may not get bought by someone else. You don't get any less for your money as a result.

                But also no more: The public pays for research, receives $0 as a result, private company makes millions, which the people who paid for the research again get $0 from.

                What you DO get is someone actively promoting a product rather than a throwaway research paper that will gather dust in the annals of scientific history.

                Again it's not the worst possible outcome - that would probably be if some researcher became a supervillain and used the technology he discovered to enslave the world and assign each person 2 wolves to chew on their armpits - but it's certainly not a good one IMO.

                • The public pays for research, receives $0 as a result

                  False. They receive the research outcomes as a result. Often behind a paywall journal, but sometimes even that is available for free. You get what you pay for. Go ahead and monetise. It's there for your taking for a small subscription fee to a journal.

                  If you're expecting actual dollars in return I suggest you never spend any money ever on anything ... other than gold and then hope the price of gold increases.

                  • It doesn't have to be actual dollars. Free batteries/medication/etc would be acceptable. Being able to produce some invention that was made with public dollars patent-free would even be acceptable but is rarely the case. Having the technology locked behind IP laws and/or subscription journals for the profit of a few is not acceptable. And to the average person (or small university), those subscription fees are far from small.

                    • Free batteries/medication/etc would be acceptable.

                      The output or R&D is not a product. You already get the output. There are many open access journals available.

                      As for being locked behind a subscription fee, I take it you don't go to unviersity libraries much...

                      #entitlement.

    • by MobyDisk ( 75490 )

      How would you work that out? There have been proposals that government-backed research would have to be public domain. But I've never heard anyone suggest that the taxpayers should get a cut of it. I can't see how to work that out logistically. Suppose the university patented it then sold the patent for a few million dollars. That would be less than a penny per taxpayer.

      The reality is that this is not a profitable venture, which is why we the government is involved in the first place. While Slashdot w

      • There are a lot of profitable spun off from universities and the (taxpayer owned) university DOES get money back, someone's a pretty hefty sum. Obviously not every idea is commercially successful, but some are are. The payments back to the university help pay for the school, which reduxes the amount taxpayers pay. In this case we're talking about CU. They get about $5 million / year in royalties from spinoffs.

        See also:
        https://hardware.slashdot.org/... [slashdot.org]

    • > When a great discovery is made, all the profits go to private parties.

      Uhm, no. The company already paid the school to license the technology, and they'll keep paying royalties.

      > When do we get reimbursed?

      Starting in 2011, in this case, and continuing forever.

      In addition to giving the (taxpayer owned) school stock in the company name(profits), the company pays:

      Up-front license fees for the technology developed at the school
      Minimum annual and/or milestone payments
      Royalties on net sales
      Sublicense royal

    • We get reimbursed when the profits they make are taxed by the government. This is a good great working model. Government plants so many seeds, and most of the fundamental research does not pan out. Private companies would not have the kind of risk tolerance or deep pockets the government has. But once in a while there is a fantastic breakthrough, a super hit, that generates tons of profits. It takes lots more investment and work to take the invention and make money out of it. Private companies are good at t
      • We get reimbursed when the profits they make are taxed by the government.

        That assumes they actually pay any taxes, like most large corporations don't.

        When the companies dodge taxes and play tricks like creating shell companies to pump money around we get shafted. So keep you anger, but direct it towards tax dodgers and their abettors in the congress.

        There's no shortage of valid targets.

    • When do we get reimbursed?

      On February 31st, of course.

    • When do we get reimbursed?

      When battery electric vehicles displace gasoline-powered vehicles because they're better, and *cheaper*, then we get paid by having quieter streets, cleaner air and a cooler planet.

  • It seems that we hear about these "breakthroughs" pretty often. At least long enough to generate an initial round of investment and then we never hear anything from them again.
    Hopefully this will not be the same.
    I personally still believe that hydrogen fuel cells are better option. Especially with the recent advances in membrane tech which allows the rapid creation of hydrogen from ammonia. An Australia firm has recently made this more attractive from a cost perspective.

    I am looking forward to electrically

    • Not to mention the fact that the current power grids of the world cannot support everyone having a plug in car.
      Fire back up the coal plants I guess since nuclear is politically not possible in most countries.

      That is a big reason hydrogen is a good option. Ammonia can be created in bulk offsite using renewables and transported using current infrastructure then using membrane tech, which is not that power intensive, converted to hydrogen onsite at a filling station.

      So ... to paraphrase ....

      Problem: electric grids do not produce enough electricity to power all electric cars. This scares me because we will need more coal power plants.

      Solution: ditch the relatively efficient battery and switch to a much more inefficient hydrogen fuel cell. Further reduce efficiency by having to create an intermediary gas and membranes which then convert that gas to a different gas. Make sure to waste a bunch of energy moving that liquid all over the place in trucks. It's OK that yo

    • Agree. Perceptive. Brutal, not breathless view of life. There should be some kind of "conservation of impact" law in operation saying you cannot just change technologies and all of a sudden the balancing "bad" for the "good" you get is gone. It just changes to something else. No technological free lunches. If global warming from carbon dioxide were to go away tomorrow, something else equal in negative impact would take its place.
    • by ledow ( 319597 )

      Ammonia is less energy dense than most compressed gas fuels.

      It also required temperatures in the range 400-500 degrees to break it down. About 5-6 more than the majority of your car engine components and their cooling systems.

      It also creates an extraordinary hazard - ammonia (as a gas, typically, compressed to a liquid) with catalysts heated to beyond-your-oven temperatures producing a highly flammable gas, often with a lot of flammable by-products or catalysts too. It's a horribly nasty and destructive b

  • Probably just another con-artist trying to scam venture capitalists. Extraordinary claims like 2-3x better energy density requires extraordinary evidence.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      Is really 2-3x better than current gen that extraordinary?

      Say that it is real and you are an investor. You aren't going to put it to market next year. You are going to pour money in it in the hope that it can be reproduced, refined and scaled up.
      It isn't going to compete against current consumer batteries. It is going to compete with other new technologies in the pipeline.
      A 2x improvement 10 years down the line doesn't seem that extreme.

  • I don't see a whole lot in terms of technical specifications, this seems to be about it: "energy capacity 2-3X higher than conventional lithium-ion.". But according to this [wikipedia.org] it just brings the specific energy into the range of Li-Po and Li-Sulphur. So why is this better?

    • by Anonymous Coward

      I believe the Electrolyte is a plastic polymer and will not vent as a gas when punctured. It also prevents dendrites? from forming which is the reason they use lithium ions vs a solid bar of lithium in lithium ion batteries. Using a solid bar of lithium increases the charge capacity.

      Netflix has a show about this actually. they went in depth as to the benefits. they even showed some one cutting the battery as it was being used. did not explode but kept working.

    • But according to this it just brings the specific energy into the range of Li-Po and Li-Sulphur. So why is this better?

      Li-Po is volatile and LiFePo is expensive. Li-Sulphur batteries are not commercially available and they must be larger than Li-Pos for a given amount of energy storage. And since I can't find anything about their volatility, I assume it's in the same range as Li-Po. A solid electrolyte should be much safer.

  • Of course - here. In this forum. Like scores of times. So far, with the same outcome every single time.
  • I'll believe it when I'm flying my quadcopter for an hour
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Tesla, E-Tron, Leaf, all these cars are showing we have reached the necessary numbers for total charge, charge/weight ratio and acceptable charging speeds. The biggest metric we need to breakthrough is cost. 100 $ per kWh at pack level. That is the key number. Tesla is already reporting 100$/kWh at cell level and 130 $/kWh at pack level. Recent investor relations is hinting 100$/kWh at pack level. That is the industry leading number being bandied about.

    Other companies are not far behind.

    When the battery

  • Call me when it actually goes commercial. Until then it's vapourware.

  • Elon Musk: "My top advice really for anyone who says they’ve got some breakthrough battery technology is please send us a sample cell, okay. Don’t send us PowerPoint, okay, just send us one cell that works with all appropriate caveats, that would be great. That sorts out the nonsense and the claims that aren’t actually true.” - 2014

  • by thomst ( 1640045 ) on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @10:15AM (#57297304) Homepage

    While it is unquestionably true that /. publishes <wild_exaggeration>an average of 2,000 "battery breakthrough" stories per hour</wild_exaggeration>, this one is different from the sludgepipe of ordinary hype in two important ways:

    • according to TFS, Solid Power has already secured $20 million in Series A funding to build a pilot plant, and
    • some (presumably-significant portion of that funding is from BMW, Hyundai, and Samsung.

    We never see that with any of the other battery-breakthrough hype pieces. They're all either announcements of tabletop-scale demonstrations (at best), or simply theoretical extrapolations of what some newly-discovered phenomenon could, eventually mean for increaing power density and/or rechargeability, making batteries out of less-expensive materials, incorporating unicorn scat, or other examples of wishful thinking in search of investors.

    This one, by contrast, is an announcement unveiling a startup that has convinced some solidly-credible major corporate investors who have (at in Samsung's case) undoubtedly heard presentations on gee-whiz battery "breakthroughs" from a raft of wannabes and scam artists in the past - and have obviously passed on all of them. It's real enough that the bean-counters in these multi-billion-dollar enterprises have signed off on those investments. That's a completely different thing than the pure hype that virtually every other story on the subject consists of.

    It's certainly still possible that their pilot plant will reveal scalar problems in manufacturing that eventually will relegate Solid Power's claimed breakthrough to "nice try, but no cigar" staus. It appears that we'll have to wait until 2019 to see if that happens (although, if the actual product doesn't live up to the investors' expectations, I kinda doubt we'll see a big, public announcement about it - more likely, it'll just quietly close its doors and disappear into the investor's writeoff disclosures in their annual reports to the SEC). But I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt - at least, until their Series A financing runs out ...

    (Full disclosure: I have no affiliation with Solid Power. I have no financial interest in any tech or automotive company whatsoever, nor do I advise any such entity. Hell, my wife and I own a grand total of ONE share of stock - and it's a legacy of an employee profitsharing plan from her employment in the retail sector almost 20 years ago. And, fwiw, hype of any kind tends to make me break out in acute scepticism.)

  • might drastically improve EV performance in bends...

  • We need to stop posting these unless there is an actual product on the market.

    There have been so many "battery breakthrough!!!!111oneone" posts that we never hear about again. Shouldn't we be a bit less naive by now?

  • Like: 1) Cost? 2) Number of usable charge cycles, and rate of charge degradation? 3) Charging rates (how fast can it safely/practically be charged)?

Enzymes are things invented by biologists that explain things which otherwise require harder thinking. -- Jerome Lettvin

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