14-Year-Old Turns Tram System Into Personal Train Set 380
F-3582 writes "By modifying a TV remote a 14-year-old boy from Lodz, Poland, managed to gain control over the junctions of the tracks. According to The Register the boy had 'trespassed in tram depots to gather information needed to build the device. [...] Transport command and control systems are commonly designed by engineers with little exposure or knowledge about security using commodity electronics and a little native wit.' Four trams derailed in the process injuring a number of passengers. The boy is now looking at 'charges at a special juvenile court of endangering public safety.'"
how many other "systems" like this? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know some kids who are extremely bright, curious, and for lack of a better description, "like to experiment". Any one of these I think could have done the same thing, and with completely innocent (though mischievous) intent. For playing with such big toys in such a fashion there should be repercussions. But the kids I know who also could have done something like this would be much more on track with thinking about how they're moving switches than about what moving those switches implies.
However, I'm led to a different train of thought. What other systems are out there created in the same context, i.e., with little thought to external interference? I'm betting there are a "few". I wonder that in the process of designing something like this if we must pay more attention to the possibility of outsiders tinkering. I hope France's TGV has a bit more built in checks and balances than this. I hope the new Boeing 787 has more security built in than this [news.com.au].
I actually think (and hope) this kid's imagination and curiosity somehow gets channeled rather than squashed. He actually sounds like he could be a contributor. Of course, he's at least grounded for the next month.
Re:how many other "systems" like this? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:how many other "systems" like this? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm proud for the kid in the sense that he put his mind to work, but at the same time, no points for lacking discretion, and a good sense of responsibility. And I don't think he should get a free pass just because he is a kid. If he is smart enough to do what he did, I think its entirely reasonable to assume that he had the capacity to know what the effects may be.
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I mean, if he was stealthy, I don't see how they'd catch him. Did he post a brag about it on MySpace or something?
Re:how many other "systems" like this? (Score:4, Informative)
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See, NOW I feel old. I always thought that actually studying the engineering aspects and bolting things together to see if you have the design down right took more thought and imagination than 'the computer says this track piece won't fit, better click on the hole digging button'.
Or is it just the fact that if it's not on the big pretty color-making box and just in plain ole' 'real life' (
Re:how many other "systems" like this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not that I'm recommending dire consequences for the boy, I'm just saying that there is probably some malicious intent here, though he probably didn't calculate the magnitude of his mischief either. I'm envisioning something like: "I'm gonna screw around with this and it'll be funny watching them try to fix i--*FOOM*...oh...wow...shit I better go".
(And jeez, whoever designed that system that way is going to have a whole mess of flying poop coming their way).
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The only malice I'd imagine is curiosity.
I probably would have done the same thing at that age just to see if it would work.
Apparently the designers were so stupid that it did work.
Re:how many other "systems" like this? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:how many other "systems" like this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:how many other "systems" like this? (Score:4, Insightful)
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They don't want you to pull out your Radio Controller and start making the plane do loop-de-loops. =P
Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption (Score:5, Informative)
This allows emergency vehicles to by-pass traffic lights by turning them green. It uses an IR transponder on vehicles, and an IR receiver on lights. When a certain frequency (pulse) is sent out from the vehicle and picked up by the receiver, the light turns green.
Before you try to build a device to do that I want to say 2 things:
1. Devices are available on the 'black market', and
2. Every time this signal gets sent, it gets recorded in a log. There have been cases of people getting caught using these and the fines are hefty.
The same system is used, called "Signal Priority" can be used by buses to hold the light green or trigger an early green in various circumstances. (Basically this involves sending out a frequency that's different from Emergency vehicles.
I bet that Lodz uses a similar technology for its trams, but maybe they thought nobody could figure it out, so they simply went with security via obscurity (or whatever the term for it is).
Czech Republic has a single system (as in same system type, not same transponders) in the entire country for its trams and trolley buses and uses something similar to your car key remote.
If anyone manages to figure out how the signal pre-emption works, please post details online
Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption (Score:5, Informative)
Works just as well, and less suceptable to hacks. (Not impossible of course, but less chance of people doing it for their own benifit.)
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Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption (Score:5, Insightful)
This whole thread is pissing me off. "He was young and didn't know what he was doing..." BS. If the kid is smart enough to hack into a system, he's easily smart enough to know how much a train weighs and what damage a train derailment will cause. Send this kid to jail!
Secondly, I hate when people excuse bad driving as normal. It's not acceptable. If you don't clear the intersection when emergency vehicles are coming, you shouldn't be driving, period. If you consistently drive 5mph under the speed limit, your license should be revoked. If you can't PARK YOUR CAR without extreme effort, license REVOKED! If you took licenses away from all the people that shouldn't have them for safety reasons, there would be 50% fewer people on the road, AT LEAST.
I hate people.
Road rage much? (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, I'm all for people driving the speed limit, maybe a little more. But legally, the speed limit is an upper limit, not a lower limit. And people who drive like the speed limit is just a guideline tend, in my experience, to be more prone to road rage than those who actually obey it.
Maybe you should consider a class in anger management. Or take a deep breath and put on some jazz music when you get in heavy traffic.
Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption (Score:4, Interesting)
So, if more than 50% of the people are kept off the road because you don't like how they drive, perhaps they should round YOU up, get rid of YOU, and drive as they see fit without interference from micromanaging busy bodies who think we're obligated to operate in a way that you can predict and write down?
You know, there have been numerous suppressed studies demonstrating that road rules and signs actually make driving less safe because they give a false sense of security. I don't have a link at my fingertips, but there have been several of them done. The safest way to structure roads is to remove all signs and controls, and force people to remain interactive with the environment rather than being hypnotized into routine. The reason the highly structured and regulated road systems continue is because they are an industry with an interest in self-preservation, and a cash cow for government, not because they are a good way to do things.
Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption (Score:4, Informative)
As for the engineers being "grossly incompetent", I really don't think so. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the system hacked was decades old, designed by folks who had no reason to think that anyone would ever have the means or desire to circumvent the system.
(FYI those 1960s electric trains are far better transport than any diesel bus I've ever been on, and the new low-floor trams are like something out of a sci-fi movie!)
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No system is perfect, of course. I like the red-all-ways because it is closest to what you want: Nobody move but the emergency vechiles, everyone else get out of the way.
Re:Other Similar Systems: Signal Pre-emption (Score:5, Informative)
I've heard emergency drivers say: "If you don't know what to do and where to go when you see/hear an emergency vehicle, simply stop. It's much easier to manage your way around a halted vehicle than around one whose driver is panicking."
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Here's something a little funny about those systems.
My father-in-law is an ex-firefighter (just retired at the end of '07) who drove the truck for a couple of years before being promoted to Captain. He absolutely despises the system due to it's unr
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Our defense and nuclear systems, for one example. I'm sure a
Engineers who built such... (Score:3, Insightful)
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I know some kids who are extremely bright, curious, and for lack of
a better description, "like to experiment". Any one of these I think
could have done the same thing, and with completely innocent
(though mischievous) intent. For playing with such big toys in
such a fashion there should be repercussions. But the kids I know who
also could have done something like this would be much more on track
with thinking about how they're moving switches than about what moving
those switches implies.
I'm all for helping creativity grow, but the problem here was that he wasn't thinking about the passengers of these machines he was fucking around with.
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Here's a video of a german teenager messing up with road information panels [ongein.nl]. Apparently, he got a copy of the software used by authorities to change those displays. It seems that anyone in the possession of that software and a wireless card can do it. Maybe someone who knows german can give more details.
wtf (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:wtf (Score:5, Insightful)
Once they've finished throwing the book at this kid, someone ought to look at getting him into a decent technical school. Maybe, in a decade, he can replace the retarded engineers.
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Young people resent the system because in all material ways, it really does disempower them and keep them small and subservient.
The older generation appreciate it because, for them, it does the opposite. For them, it is an expre
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He's just as "retarded" as the engineers if he indeed did not stop to think of the consequences (derailing of trams) of his hack. Granted, it might well be that with a bit of proper training he'll pay much more attention to the effects of solutions, and end up being the better engineer.
Re:wtf (Score:5, Insightful)
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Probably couldnt control everything quick enough from a tv remote.
Re:wtf (Score:4, Interesting)
That doesn't mean what the boy did was ok, or that he shouldn't be facing charges, though. While he is young and might not be held to the same standard of foresight as an adult, still his behavior cannot be excused as merely impulsive considering the time and effort involved. Even if he isn't held fully accountable for endangering lives, still he had to know he would be causing considerable disruption.
I'm curious, though, about the details of the tram system in question. The article describes a tram operator trying to go one way while the track pushed him the other way... so I assume these are not strictly rail-following vehicles (like trains) that have only an accelerator and a brake?
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On railroads, switches are mostly controlled from a central dispatch office.
I'm taking the troll -- on encryption, etc. (Score:3, Insightful)
It sounds as though the system worked of infrared pulse encoding, and that is why he could use a modified television remote. Imagine you are the one designing this (probably in the 1970's or 1980's...) It is generally desirable to keep things simple to ensure they actually *work* -- that is, having a rolling code that may be out of sync while having a signalling train hurtle toward the junction at 80 mph is not
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Is this not the rationale for penetration testing?
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It's better to have your lack of security demonstrated to you by a relatively benign agent before a truly malevolent one.
Is this not the rationale for penetration testing?
It's better to have your lack of security demonstrated to you by a relatively benign agent before a truly malevolent one.
Which sort is this 14 year old who derailed 4 trains and injured people again?
I'm not saying his punishment should be harsh but he *did* do wrong here and knew or should have known that he was doing wrong.
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same trick, different environment.
New terrorist plot for TV (Score:5, Interesting)
This kid does deserve to get in trouble, though, big-time. You don't go around derailing trams, that's not cool.
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Re:New terrorist plot for TV (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm surprised nobody has asked the obvious question. Switches normally switch between two tracks. How does switching a train to a different track cause it to derail? Collide, sure, but derail? Sounds like a design problem to me... or a whole lot of design problems if it is possible for it to switch when a train is in the middle of the switch, as I suspect occurred. There should be safety interlocks to prevent switching from even being possible as long as a weight sensor at the switch is depressed.
It strikes me that this kid not only found a security flaw in the system, but also found at least one very serious safety flaw that could have occurred due to electronics glitches even if he hadn't done this. It could have ben a lot worse, particularly if those same switching systems are used for any high-speed trains....
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First, the alternative track may not be "right" for the tram — old/decrepit, too curvy for the tram's usual speed, etc.
Second the driver(s) may have panicked and done something stupid because of the sudden change of direction...
Re:New terrorist plot for TV (Score:5, Informative)
I'm sure there are visual indicators if you are heading into a situation where the track ahead isn't switched correctly (my train set had red and green lights), but it is easy to see how there could have been derailments if somebody was running amok with the switches.
Law enforcement differences (Score:5, Funny)
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Up from Blackwatch Plaid [wikipedia.org].
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Special security training? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Which succeeded.
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It's hard to see how anyone with a brain could have not considered the implication of a stray signal setting off the switch actuator, potentially causing loss of life.
I own an area of land which I've thought, somewhat idly, would suit an aerial tramway for moving building materials onto the site. The first thing that crossed my mind was not was how to engineer the rigging. That's textbook stuff. No, my first concern was whether it would be possible to buil
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Telegraph article (Score:4, Funny)
Here is the article in the Telegraph [telegraph.co.uk].
I particularly enjoyed the phrase:
As they then list two incedents since 1999 and the Boeing 787 concern.
I have a suggestion. (Score:2)
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Better that than that silly Garfield movie, at least.
Needs a challenge (Score:2, Insightful)
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Video (Score:5, Funny)
OK, I have to ask (Score:5, Funny)
IANATE (I Am Not A Tram Expert), but if it was on RAILS, how or why would you STEER it?
Re:OK, I have to answer (Score:2)
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Re:OK, I have to ask (Score:5, Informative)
Tram line 19 runs east to west on 21's tracks, then turns onto a north-south track heading south.
Driver of 19 sets his left-straight-right turn lever to broadcast "right".
Kid overrides with a left, lead car turns left.
Kid stops overriding, the junction again sees the signal on the tram to switch to turn right, and the second car goes right, causing a derailment.
In the US, most remote junction switches have a fail-safe that prevents the tracks from switching if there's a car over the junction, thus preventing driver error or malicious external elements from causing a derailment by making the train go in 2 directions at once. Apparently no such fail-safe is present on the systems in Lodz (pronounced 'woodj' in Polish).
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scary genius (Score:2)
Think what could be accomplished if people like this where given access to what they needed and had the same motivation when it came to curing cancer.
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I doubt that.
Why is it that... (Score:3, Insightful)
Makes me wonder if countries should have a special regulatory team whose job it is to attempt break ins on a regular basis to various areas, and levy fines to organizations failing compliance. Only problem is areas where people shoot to kill... telling a tiger team from a genuine trespasser/burglar/criminal before pulling the trigger.
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If the team is seriously concerned about being shot, I think it's safe to give that facility a stamp of approval without even attempting a break in.
Fire the safety department (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, there's an RF remote for the thing (Score:5, Informative)
This is a street tram switching system similar to the Elektroline [elektroline.cz] system. It's not a full signalling system with interlocking. The tram driver is in control, and has an RF transmitter which can control switches. The current generation, the "TRAMVYS 6K", is an RF transmitter on 433.9 or 868.35 MHz. Normal range is very short, about 2M, with the transmitter down on the front truck of the tram and the receiver buried in the road. But it could probably be triggered by someone at the side of the street with a suitable transmitter. This system is interlocked so that the switch can't change position underneath a tram.
That's current technology. Older systems are much dumber [google.com]. Some of this stuff is at the garage-door-opener level of RF devices. The Lodz tram system dates from 1898, so they have lots of legacy trackwork.
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Where are those engineers who designed that system (Score:2)
Not an Engineering Problem (Score:2)
1. Engineering was likely given a number of constraints that can not be ignored. For example, build it in 6 months at a final BOM cost of $Y.
2. Picture a small hill with the railroad purchasing agents on the top. On one side is the manufacturer of switch, on the other, the boy. Sh!t rolls downhill onto both parties.
It's a pity the boy has to be made an example of.
He could have done better.. (Score:3, Funny)
I know he hacked this together out of a remote control, but that's a horribly inefficient process he created - surely it's possible to injure the passengers without derailing the trams!
This will lead to a flip ending (Score:2)
wait, what? (Score:2)
Lucky for the kid he's not an American (Score:2)
If only this could somehow be spun into a funny joke, but it is too close to the truth, unfortunately.
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Re:Leave it to the Polish! (Score:5, Funny)
I know. in fact, they call RPN just "notation" !
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And not that I have anything aginst the Polish...
No, of course you don't. Rather than flame, I'll try education. The original was taken down, these will have to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quld5950v6w [youtube.com]
Alternate video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lSaYx6ttuE&feature=related [youtube.com]
5 lies about Poland (try not to knock the spelling - check your own) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p67IVwRUilc&feature=related [youtube.com]
Here's the kernel of truth underlying all those Polish jokes - most people can't seem to pull themselves up, so they choose someone superio
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Fortunately more useful things like an interactive whiteboard [blogspot.com] for $40. The only problem I've had is trying to get my hand on a Wii Remote to try it out but the idea is brilliant...at least if you are a professor: I can teach them physics at the same time as using physics to teach!
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Uh. Sounds about right...
Or are you going to tell me that an american, a ruskie or a german would reflexively act differently? For those who failed to get the parent's joke, there are some backwards islands where people drive on the wrong side of the road...
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One day while they were sailing, they saw that a pirate ship had sent a boarding party to try and board their ship. The crew became worried, but the Captain was calm.
He bellowed to his First Mate, "Bring me my red shirt!"
The First Mate quickly got the Captain's red shirt, which the captain put on. Then he led his crew into battle against the mean pirates. Although there