Does the Windows Logo Mean Anything? 175
Dan writes "The Windows Logo Program was supposed to be Microsoft's key to ensuring that all hardware devices work well with the Windows operating system. It worked in Windows XP, it would be expected to work just as well in Windows Vista. Unfortunately, there are obvious signs that the Windows Logo Program is no longer a trustworthy standard. Recently, even graphics cards are getting certified without working drivers. The article digs into the 321-page Microsoft Windows Logo Program 3.0 document to find out what the Windows logo is supposed to mean in Vista."
Isn't it obvious? (Score:5, Insightful)
> out what the Windows logo is supposed to mean in Vista.
I thought it meant that the manufacturer had paid a fee to Microsoft.
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Who really paid attention to the window logo program anyway?
Re:Isn't it obvious? (Score:4, Insightful)
Charles Simonyi would be rolling over in his grave if he saw what Microsoft was doing with the logo program. Just kidding, of course. He's not dead. He's not riding the Shuttle today.
Re:Isn't it obvious? (Score:5, Funny)
1.)Pay Microsoft Fee.
2.)Driver gets made.
3.)Profit!
However, it appears somebody removed step 2.
Re:Isn't it obvious? (Score:5, Funny)
1- Pay Microsoft fee
2- ???
3- Profit!
looks like an improvement to me. Maybe I have steps 2 and 3 swapped.
Re:Isn't it obvious? (Score:5, Funny)
"Poison" - Do not eat or drink
"Flammable" - Keep away from flames and hot surfaces
"Windows" - Do not waste your money on this item
=Smidge=
Re:Isn't it obvious? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Isn't it obvious? (Score:4, Interesting)
I wish I could find the article I read at the time. Probably its in waybackmachine somewhere, I can't be the only one who saw this.
That's why so many things installed into windows xp by users produce the 'this driver has not been signed by Microsoft/may harm your system' stuff. That's a hangover from the expectation that manufacturers would allow Microsoft to manage their drivers for them and verify their correctness. I suspect this was an attempt, at least at first, to ensure that people didn't produce drivers that might break windows itself.
It was rejected on the very sound grounds that this would give Microsoft far too much control over the software of these other companies. After all, if Microsoft controlled the only place to get verified drivers, then that meant they could just as easily decide to halt supply of a driver if a company failed to play ball. I don't think it was meant to involve a fee.
They're trying it again in Vista, albeit in slightly different form.
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Or like the centralized repository method that distros use?
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Could I have some of your crack, please?
I have at least three kernel modules working on this system which were not part of the original source tree.
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I've tried many drugs in my days and one thing I've found is that giving you delusions isn't necessarily an indicator of quality.
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That's not my point. My point is that it's usually very difficult to use drivers that aren't part of the tree. For example, I've yet to get the vmware guest system drivers working without hacking the code (because of changes in some structs and functions in kernel in version 2.6.19, IIRC).
I also was never able to get the some Atmel WLAN drivers working [sourceforge.net] in 2.6 because they're now unmaintained, and t
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You want http://at76c503a.berlios.de/ [berlios.de] (I have one of the cards.)
The VMware issue is just that. A VMware issue.
They simply havent updated their drivers. I know a pile of other drivers which need small tweaks to get working with newer kernels.
Of course it all depends on your distro how external drivers are handled.
I thought 'emerge nvidia-drivers' was pretty easy for installing the nVidia binary driver..
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It wasn't the idea so much as the single point of control that was objected to, or more exactly, who would hold that control.
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From what you've said I gather it's something relating to 'decentralised control', but I can't think of any way in which it's unique in that regard (compared to say Debian, Slackware, Fedora, etc.), either in terms of kernel/module management or wider package management.
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I was, y'know, assuming a reader could extrapolate. Obviously I was mistaken, certainly in your case.
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The kernel comes with GPLed stable drivers. You can get unstable and binary drivers elsewhere.
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The TV-tuner card in my MythTV box works just fine, and its driver is not (yet) rolled into the kernel. Thanks for playing, though.
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Maybe not Microsoft Update, but if you try to install mystery hardware invoking the Add New Hardware wizard, one of the options, beside Insert cd or Browse to location of
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Re:Isn't it obvious? (Score:4, Insightful)
WHQL.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Once upon a time, we had a very very obscure problem that they shipped that prevented WHQL certification. Until that was going to be fixed, they shipped it as a linux-only offering. Many many expensive weeks of trying to support thousands of these things that were dying left and right finally nailed down what caused the strange sudden deaths of the product, the WHQL-blocking flaw they neglected in the name of getting it out the door for linux...
In summary, WHQL isn't the whole picture, but no company producing hardware regardless of the Windows market should ignore it, unless they have an impeccable testing track record without ever looking at WHQL.
Mark of the Beast (Score:2)
Who cares? (Score:5, Funny)
I want to know if it is Linux compatible..
Ducks
10 years ago, that would have been true (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:10 years ago, that would have been true (Score:5, Interesting)
Please read the comment again. I didn't say anything bad about Microsoft or Windows. I did say, that I was interested if the hardware does support Linux. I am very happy to report that the number of products reporting Linux compatibility is growing very quickly.
I needed a presentation pointer (Power Point remote) 2 weeks ago. Visiting Office Depot, I found a set of remotes. Many listed software requirements and Windows versions it was compatible with. The one I picked up is the one simply listed as "No Drivers Required" Plug and play compatible with Windows, Macintosh, and Linux. The package was right. The remote simply was a remote page up page down and enter USB keyboard.
Many items which list Windows compatiblility have the listing only for the included software. I picked up a Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse and assumed that I would only get basic 102 key functionality without installing the Windows software.
Woo! Hoo!.. All the buttons I tested worked. The volume, mute, play, internet, email... all worked on Dapper Drake. I wish they had noted that on the outside of the box.
Most hardware comes with the assumption of Windows or Macintosh compatibility.
Now not bashing Windows... What I want to know is Is it Linux compatible? Lots of stuff is, but they don't mention it on the box.
Since I am transitioning away from Windows.. I don't care much if it is Windows compatible.
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Holy crow, thank for posting that! I just hit my volume up button (Ubuntu 6.10) and it worked. I always hated the idea of installing drivers for keyboard, so in windows live without them.
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Re:Linux compatibility (Score:3, Interesting)
So the companies would not be able to guarantee Linux compatibility.
And when it is known that some distro's include the keymaps, it could easly be printed on the box;
Tested on Red Hat ver x.xx, Suse ver x.xx, Ubuntu, Breezy/Dapper/Edgy/Fiesty etc.
For other versions, the keymap can be installed from www.sourceforge.org/logitechM610.html
I expect to see more of this on the box in the future.
Companies which provide t
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I seriously doubt that. The Slashdot Community was over-zealous in attacking Microsoft. Eventually it spouted enough bullshit to recieve a backlash. (Watch, same thing will happen to Sony within the next year.) No need to pay people to take sides on the internet, it's natural. If this really bothers you, the first thing you can do is lead by example. Don't go overboard wi
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It does look that way, doesn't it? There's certainly a consistency about a lot of the MS-promoting, competitor-denigrating posts that makes it look like there's a script being followed.
I wonder where the money trail goes? Someone like DCI, PayPerPost or Edelman? Or does MS retain someone in marketing to run a few drones?
It wouldn't take too many people to keep a dozen or two sock-puppet accounts and have them respond to any critici
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The insistance of the Windows logo only means (to me)that they have not yet figured out burning a *nix distro
"When you can pluck the *nix distro
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It's a relative thing (Score:3, Insightful)
The hardware manufacturers look at all the other things that run in a broken, half-assed way on Windows and think "Hell, our stuff works at least as well as all that junk; there's no reason we shouldn't be able to put the Windows logo on it as well."
You mean the SATAN LOGO PROGRAM! (Score:5, Funny)
3.0 times = 6 6 6
SATAN LOGO PROGRAM!
Get out, Satan! (Score:2)
It means, "Your computer will need an exorcist." And that was before Vista.
Isn't it a warning sign (Score:5, Funny)
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VISTA READY! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:VISTA READY! (Score:5, Funny)
When you buy an HDTV-READY television, that doesn't mean it will handle HDTV. You still have to buy more hardware to convert the signal. So by VISTA READY, I think one can construe that you still need to buy additional RAM, among other things.
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I thought it meant, stay away, this a winX product (Score:5, Insightful)
You know as in winmodem or winprinter, a device that has taken much of the logic from the device were it belongs and onto the cpu were it will cause slowdown and despite the fact that software should be easier to update this only means the device will ship with buggy logic wich will never actually get updated.
Windows "ready" meant stay the fuck away. This is crap only a windows user would fall for.
After all, what device does NOT work with windows? For all its craptastic nature the windows OS widely supported and you would be very hard pressed to go into an average store (look, the apple store does not count alright) selling computer components and come out with a device that does not have windows drivers.
The windows logo therefore means absolutely nothing. Never has, never will. It can't, ms can't even certify its own stuff. Let alone others. When MS stuff works with MS stuff, then and only then can they start commenting on others people hardware.
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Consumers _like_ simplicity. They don't want to use ndiswrapper. They don't want to configure their x windows. They only want the damn hardware work as soon as they plug it in. Can you do it with other OSes?
I agree with the general idea of simplicity. However, as a Linux user since 1999, I sure as hell don't want to use ndiswrapper or some such dirty hacks. In many ways Linux is simpler than Windows, it doesn't get in my way, which is why I like to use it. And I'm not sure where you get the idea that anything works in Windows without installing drivers.
My experience (Score:5, Funny)
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Or when your Vista box just lost your tax records for the past ten years and the IRS just decided to audit you.
It means buy Vista you dumb slug. (Score:2, Funny)
Re:It means buy Vista you dumb slug. (Score:4, Interesting)
I dual boot WinXP and Ubuntu. When people are wondering whether or not to switch, I always ask them what they use their computer for. Hardware is always a second consideration. The whole operating systems wars isn't as black and white as you think. For some, FOSS suits their needs best. For others, windows does. There is a lot more too it than that, but as soon as you dogmatically say that Windows is better that Linux, or indeed vice-versa, you're trying to make both operating systems into some sort of solve-all-your-problems
My second argument is supply and demand. If people didn't actively want an alternative to their old operating system, why would there be one available? You can't develop something with the expectation that no people will use it.
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I have a friend who bought a new laptop, with Vista preinstalled. He absolutely loathed the Vista. So did I. I thought of switching him over to Linux, but I found out he's a heavy gamer - and not very skilled with computers too. Sorry, Tux Racer is not the way to go for him. So I got him XP, Firefox, OOo, several other good programs of free software, and he was quite satisfied.
Ok how about this, fanboy (Score:2)
Speaking of logos... (Score:2, Funny)
My Dad's boss thought that the old keyboards with the pre-xp logo they had wouldn't work with the new XP computers they had just received,so instead of arguing with him, They ended up ordering 200+ new "XP" Keyboards.
The funny thing is, even those had the old windows logos on the keys.
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Wouldn't it have been cheaper to buy 200 XP stickers?
Link is to a rather hostile page (Score:5, Insightful)
The page being linked to has so much advertising-related dreck that it uses 8-12% of the CPU just sitting there. Much more if you move the mouse over it. And that's with popup blocking. There's ad-related Javascript on that page for at least five different ad systems: "Rojackpot", "Google Syndication", "PriceGrabber", "Extreme-DM.com", and "AdSolution". Plus attempts to get the article onto Digg and Reddit.
The article content sucks, too. They don't understand the WHQL process, and don't give any real insight into whether it is broken. It's just a page of junk content intended to fool blogs like Slashdot into feeding them traffic. And Slashdot's "editors" fell for it.
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"Rojakpot" (no c) is the old name of the site, not an ad system. Adrian's Rojakpot is a tech blog that has been around for ages, and only recently changed its name to Tech ARP (guess what ARP stands for).
Yeah, the site is quite heavy on the ads, much like Sharky Extreme and other tech blogs run by individuals. I recommend Ad
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Do a Google search for a good hosts file.
1 It is Windows compatible
2 It is Linux compatible
3 It is Macintosh compatible
If the page is still covered in advertisements, you might be providing them localy. Time for an AV spyware/adware sweep.
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Not bad! (Score:2)
The page being linked to has so much advertising-related dreck that it uses 8-12% of the CPU just sitting there.
Not bad for IE, are you using that on top of Vista or XP?
Kidding aside, the page is nasty but not so bad as the average MSNBC or CNN monster. For my dinky 1GHz PIII, Konqueror sports between 0.3 and 20% CPU with that and about 50 other pages open. Closing that one page puts it to less than 2%. Neither case has any effect on overall speed and responsiveness of my system. I use it a lot to l
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Not bad for IE, are you using that on top of Vista or XP?
Firefox 2 on Windows 2000, actually.
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It's not Konqueror or IE. It's the flash plugin.
I don't have flash, so it's the web site.
What it means to me. (Score:4, Insightful)
That is, when I see the logo I get reminded of the Windows tax that I'm about to pay, and get more annoyed with both M$ and the manufacturer.
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Windows Tax? (Score:3, Interesting)
If you buy from a reputable manufacturer such as Dell, it is easy to get your money back. Just make sure that the disc is still in its packaging and send it back, and you should have your refund within a few days. There are also many manufacturers that sell laptops with an alternative OS installed (or completely blank if you would rather install an OS yourself).
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Means I Have to Debug Friends Problems (Score:3, Interesting)
I've just told friends to stop the B.S. & buy a MacMini. $599 and you don't have to worry about BSOD, missing DLLs, hardware that doesn't mount/recognize, etc. They have the screen & mouse and at most need a Mac keyboard. Enough older smaller LCDs are around that you can get them for next to nothing. Plus, if they actually do need to run Win XP, they can do it in Parallels and EASILY BACK IT UP AND RESTORE IT ANY TIME IT IS REQUIRED.
Geesh.
Re:Means I Have to Debug Friends Problems (Score:4, Interesting)
When the computer gets scrambled up, then the time spent extracting various data files before wiping the HD comes in as another time waster.
I am into "Use What Works Easiest".
At least if Win XP Pro on Parallels in a MacMini goes wonko, replacement of the virtual HD file is as simple as can be. Plus, if you want to extract files from a corrupted PC file, you can just save the file somewhere else to work on it.
Works for Me (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Works for Me (Score:5, Funny)
A few days later, the lid came crashing off the garbage can when I stepped on the foot switch.
Probably just a strange coincidence
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It is and has always been a marketing gimmick (Score:5, Insightful)
The Windows logo program worked for XP because MS management seems to have been more competent with XP than they have been with Vista. Is this because of top level personnel changes, MS being spooked by increasingly visible competition (regardless of actual threat level to MS) since 2001, or both?
It was never meant to actually certify anything, only give the appearance of such. The fact that it worked for XP is icing on the cake, but the slapdash hardware situation (insane system requirements, spotty device support) in Vista exposes the program for what it is: a way for hardware OEM's to ride MS's monopoly coattails.
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Means MS got their cut (Score:2)
I thought it was pretty obvious (Score:2)
That is what you were talking about, right?
Rob
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yes actually (Score:2)
To the submitter (Score:2)
Also, please see icon to the right of your summary for clarification.
And people say linux is hard to work with.... (Score:5, Insightful)
A "Vista Certified" device that:
A)Is incredibly difficult to get to install, and
B)Results in repeatable on-boot BSODs, and
C)Is incredibly difficult to get to uninstall, *and*
D)Leaves packages on your HD after uninstall that cause repeatable on-boot BSODs.
Either the Vista (display) driver development process is as much of an after-thought as Linux driver development, or Vista's "NEW AND INNOVATIVE" hardware environment is so incredibly buggy that wrestling with all the necessary work arounds is a very difficult task.
My guess? The new Vista driver model is so overly complex that developers will have a hard time working with it indefinitely. Either development budgets will have to go up (unlikely, for ATI and Nvidia, at least), or hardware release cycles will have to slow. Given that Vista has been in *public* development for such a long time (Betas & Release candidates), I'm guessing there is a systematic problem to driver development that most hardware companies cannot adapt to.
Take a look at this: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=357 [pcper.com]
"Finally, the complexity of these drivers is simply astounding. Diercks claimed that each of the six drivers that NVIDIA has to develop for Windows Vista is roughly 20 million lines of code long; about as much code as Windows NT 4! While I am sure there is some significant driver overlap between the six separate modules and the 20 million lines on each, projects of that magnitude are something most normal people couldnt even begin to wrap their heads around. "
Consider that Vista contains approximately 50 million lines of code, and took 5+ years to develop. Consider that Linux Kernel 2.6.0 was 6 million lines of code, and contains *thousands* of drivers.
Now, does this mean that Vista driver programmers are simply going to give up, Vista will collapse, and we'll all switch to another OS? Of course not; these companies *will* manage to overcome the overly complex development environment, and will create working drivers. In Time.
What we may see, however, is that Linux drivers will start improving faster than Windows drivers; and I can even potentially forsee a day when the Linux binary video drivers beat Vista drivers to the punch, in terms of properly supporting newer hardware. Architectural problems don't necessarily cause development to fail, but serious organizational difficulties impact release cycle, and result in more annoyance and security bugs.
The pawns are not impressed. (Score:2)
Now, does this mean that Vista driver programmers are simply going to give up, Vista will collapse, and we'll all switch to another OS? Of course not; these companies *will* manage to overcome the overly complex development environment, and will create working drivers. In Time.
Why would anyone waste time on an OS only one in ten people want [slashdot.org]? Especially when it's expensive and owned by a company that considers them pawns to be lied to and fucked over [slashdot.org]? It's not in their best interst now and may never be.
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well, I'd say probably about one in ten people would waste time on an OS only one in ten people want.
but I could be wrong.
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Seeing as Vista is a dudd on the upgrade market it wont make much difference to M$ (apart from their future goal of xbox style licensing fees for windows).
It is really starting to sound like M$ should have just saved the money they spent on vista and stuck with XP for another six
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Linux: ~12 MB
NT4: ~13 MB
XP: ~40 MB
Vista: ~53 MB
An expensive revenue stream for MS (Score:3, Informative)
This forces out smaller companies of many markets, since the majority of Windows home and even business users are ignorant to the actual process (with good reason of course, they don't know any better). If you're trying to market a product to Windows users, if they don't see that magic "compliant (approved, bought out, bribed, etc..)" logo on the product, it's a lost sale.
The program is a total joke.
No Digging Required (Score:2)
Yes It Does (Score:2, Funny)
Yes, it means you picked up the wrong damned box again.
Does the logo mean anything? (Score:2, Interesting)
Like that other poster, I just always assumed it meant they PAID Microsoft, not that it certified anything. I wasted THREE HOURS getting a simple Creative Webcam 3 working on Win98; I took the thing upstairs on a Linux box, and it had created the device, and was waiting on me to open the video! Sometimes they didn't get/keep all the
Bad memory (Score:2, Insightful)
Point is, some hardware work together perfectly, some don't. I doubt Microsoft ever can be 100% certain your new and shi
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Does it mean anything? Sure it does. (Score:2)
"So, I understand that you sell certified pre-owned cars here."
"Yep."
"What does 'certified pre-owned' mean?"
"It means we certify that it's used."
EFF says logo means DRM now,incompatible with prev (Score:2)
it's been out there from the EFF & company for years (look at the date on the link).
because of these new requirements for vista logo testing, it's not compatible with XP logo testing, and thus compatibility issues are intentionally arising trying to install xp logo devices/drivers into vista.
Means the hardware is not Linux only (Score:2)
Too Bad (Score:2)
It is too bad it does not stand for Safety, Security, Stability, and Spyware-free.
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Re:What's the fuzz about? (Score:5, Funny)
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Besides, I'm not that old.
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If the drivers don't drive 'er, I certainly would.