If Microsoft Built Cars... 642
trystanu writes "If Microsoft Built Cars, occasionally your car would just die on the motorway for no reason; you'd
accept this, restart and drive on -- at least that was the joke a few years ago. ZDNET reports that Microsoft has persuaded a number of carmakers to use its slimmed-down Windows CE operating system to power a variety of in-car electronics, from navigation systems to music players to information devices. BMW, in particular, has gravitated to Microsoft systems, although the company has announced wins with Honda, Volvo and others as well. Perhaps the recent trapping of Thai dignitaries inside a BMW should be a warning to us all."
If if if (Score:4, Funny)
If Microsoft Built Cars..
An interesting proposition..
If Microsoft Built Cars... [hoppers.com.au]
If Microsoft Built Cars... [tremcopoliceproducts.com]
If Microsoft Built Cars... [carbuyingtips.com]
If Microsoft Built Cars... [tfhrc.gov]
If Microsoft Built Cars... [bbc.co.uk]
If Microsoft Built Cars... [aol.com]
If Microsoft Built Cars... [planetx.org]
If Microsoft Built Cars... [dangerous-walkers.com]
If Microsoft Built Cars... [memphismaulers.com]
Whoa.. stick with QNX [qnx.com], please.
Microsoft's response: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Microsoft's response: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:If if if (Score:5, Insightful)
It's probably not too far off to say 99.9% of Windows crashing problems are due to operator error from installing bad drivers (from other manufacterers), installing bad hardware, installing crappy software.
If GM made Windows, it would not be upgradable, it would run 1950's technology, it would cost $20000 every 5 years, and it would STILL CRASH!
Not a Microsocks fan, but it's funny how narrowminded some can be...
torved
Re:If if if (Score:3, Informative)
Evidently you did not read the report [zdnet.com.au] that stated that only 50% of Windows crashes were due to such problems. By implication, the other 50% are due to Windows itself.
Evidently... (Score:3, Insightful)
In other words, half of what Dr. Watson reported was error conditions originating directly from third-party code, while the other half was initiated by Windows code. Hardly a reason to point fingers at "bad" Windows code. The
People blame Ford and GM (Score:5, Insightful)
It's pretty obvious that, for example, when the Windows installer crashes, or a fresh copy of IIS has to be rebooted every 2 weeks despite serving only static HTML, that Windows is somehow at fault. Not only is Windows instability legendary, it is also well documented. Hardware cannot be the issue, because that hardware could be running another OS and have years of uptime. Drivers should not be the issue for the same reason. If the drivers are both put out by the same company, they should have the same level of overall quality.
GM has made an OS... Its cars have been running on microcontrollers for years. They run on the smallest of processors, they can be upgraded for about $100 by replacing a ROM, and they never crash. If you had meant what a horrible mess it would be for GM to attempt to create a desktop operating system, then yes, I agree with you. However, that should extend to any company attempting to do something significant in a field that they don't have experience in.
If Microsoft decided to do this properly by hiring the best kernel developers and experienced automotive programmers, and creating a real-time OS from scratch, people might be persuaded that this was a good idea. But they're not. They're taking an OS made for convincing a printer to communicate with a text processor, and trying to force it into making an antilock braking system communicate with a real-time traction control system.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather use an OS specifically designed for reliability if I'm going to spend two hours a day inside something that kills 50,000 people per year.
Re:State of Software Sucks (Score:4, Insightful)
In modern vehicles, the warning lamps are not hardwired. They are controlled by the embedded software in the instrument panel (IP). If the IP has not received a message from the ABS module within, say, 1 second, it will turn on EVERY brake-related lamp immediately (red "BRAKE" lamp, yellow "ABS" lamp, traction/stability control warning lamp, etc.)
Even in older vehicles that had hard-wired lamps, the lamp was grounded through the ABS controller. In this way, if the ABS micro ever went down, the lamp would illuminate by default.
There is no comparison between desktop computers which have millions of different possible configurations of input/output devices and storage mediums and protocols, and an embedded system such as a driver's seat module or a climate -control module, that performs a pre-determined (and thus EMBEDDED) function, while listening to the exact same sensorics in EVERY VEHICLE.
I can shut down my Windows machine and install a new sound card or completely replace the RAM, and likely it will re-boot and attempt to figure out what I've done. It may or may not re-configure everything correctly. Your car will not be happy with similar changes because all of this code doesn't exist. If a wheel speed sensor doesn't look electrically identical to the sensor that the system was designed for, the ABS module will set a DTC, disable ABS function, and throw a warning lamp.
Linux is remarkably stable because the user is responsible for configuring everything. Don't want support for sound cards other than what's installed in your box? Don't compile or load those modules. Don't need USB support? Re-compile the kernel and don't include it. You can make all the choices.
By the way, the supplier responsible for the module writes their own software.
I am a vehicle development engineer working on automotive embedded systems.
Re:State of Software Sucks (Score:4, Informative)
Of course, Microsoft is saying currently that WinCE is aimed at navigation and media playback, not embedded control. That wasn't always their shtick, however, as when they started this initiative they cited "better safety and security," along with reduced hardware duplication as a reason to use WinCE for all of your machine's needs. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but they truly wanted to be a central controller for the machine.
My mother dated a vehicle development engineer who created system diagnostic software for 5 years.
Bogus claims (Score:3, Informative)
Could Microsoft make mission critical software with uptimes measured in years (like QNX or unix)? Yes, I believe they could, but they will not do so until the market stops buying stuff that
Re:If if if (Score:3, Interesting)
Not nobody.
Also, 9/11 was caused by poor airline security and lax regulation and oversight. Terrorists are a fact of life that's incredibly difficult (and expensive) to change. Airline security is something we could have changed to prevent this tragedy. And we still have not.
It's probably not too far off to say 99.9% of Windows crashing problems are due to operator error from ins
BOX KNIVES! (Score:5, Insightful)
9/11 was caused by poor airline security and lax regulation and oversight.
NO. NO NO NO NO!!!!. The terrorists took over using friggin' BOX KNIVES! I, for one, do NOT want to see the level of paranoid security that would be required to prevent someone from carrying a tiny razor-blade sized knife on board. The best weapon the terrorists had was deceit. They had the passengers convinced that all that was going to happen was that the plane was going to be forced to land somewhere and then negotiations would begin for hostage release. Under those expectations, the risk of being stabbed with the knives wasn't worth engaging in any heroics. In the one case where the news was already out, and the element of deceit was lost, the passengers did decide to overpower the terrorists' wimpy arsenel of box knifes. The same thing would likely have happened on the other three flights if they too had known what was going to happen if they sat still.
Don't blame airline security. Blame excessive optimism on the part of the passengers.
Re:If if if (Score:3, Informative)
" Ironically, 50,000 people die every year from Automobile accidents and no one looks to blame Ford or GM for these deaths."
That is just not true. Automobile manufacturers are sued for damages created by crashes routinely. Furthermore, they are subject to Federal regulation of safety equipment and must recall defective models.
Re:If if if (Score:3, Informative)
Windows crashing problems are due to operator error from installing bad drivers (from other manufacterers), installing bad hardware, installing crappy software.
Two points:
1) You just listed three things that are NOT the operator's fault. Why call them operator errors?
Did the operator write the buggy driver? Did the operator know the driver was buggy? Did the operator know the software package had a fatal flaw? I know your point is that they aren't Microsoft's fault, but that doesn't mean they are t
Re:If if if (Score:4, Informative)
The sad part was they tied it to the propulsion. When the computer crashed, the jet would simply shutdown and at 20,000 feet things could get interesting.
Ironically, the manufacturer provided restart instructions for the computer and claimed this was perfectly 'normal'. I don't believe this ever moved past the prototype stage.
BS Bell clanging loudly alert! (Score:4, Interesting)
The F22 only just fits the time period; it started its software development process in the days of Windows 3.0.
No aircraft has Windows based Flight Control systems, not even the civil stuff.
Though that is not to say flight qualified software doesn't reset.
Re:If if if (Score:4, Funny)
Mangled quote:
"The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy defines Microsoft as 'a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes... Curiously enough, an edition of the Encyclopaedia Galactica that had the good fortune to fall through a time warp from a thousand years in the future defined Microsoft as 'a bunch of mindless jerks who were the first against the wall when the revolution came'."
-- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
Eew! (Score:3, Insightful)
4 words (Score:5, Funny)
Re:4 words (Score:5, Interesting)
Music Players? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Music Players? (Score:5, Interesting)
Other Drivers? (Score:5, Funny)
Only YOU will be able to drive your car, and if your friends or family want to drive it, they will have to purchase a seperate licence from the manufacturer!
Re:Music Players? (Score:3, Informative)
Probably pretty good. While reading the ZDNet article, I followed the link to the Court to FBI: No spying on in-car computers [com.com] article (emphasis mine):
Microsoft security (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Microsoft security (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Microsoft security (Score:5, Funny)
"I wonder which one of these is the 'any' key?"
If Microsoft built cars.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:If Microsoft built cars.. (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.
heh (Score:3, Funny)
It's a good fit (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sure in the US there's some protection offered under the same law that forces manufacturers to allow you to use aftermarket parts, but I don't know if that precedent would extend to electronics equipment that isn't really part of the car.
Re:It's a good fit (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:It's a good fit (Score:3, Informative)
As far as add-on electronics goes, I'm not going to void my warranty by plugging in my cell-phone into my car. But
Re:It's a good fit (Score:5, Informative)
They must use some piss-poor shielding on their electronics if they are really worried about induced currents from a hand-held phone causing any problems.
Either that, or they want to scare people into buying a BMW blessed carphone from a dealership, which is much more likely.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's a good fit (Score:5, Informative)
In the US, it's called the Magnuson-Moss Act of 1975. Google for it. It specifically prohibits product tying for warranty claims. They cannot deny your claim because you used an unapproved cell phone. There's a number of other provisions in MM that BMW seems to be trying to ignore.
Temkin
Re:It's a good fit (Score:5, Informative)
The number one reason is that each BMW vehicle has a personalized wiring system. Each vehicle receives a different wiring harness based upon the features and options in that specific vehicle. In other words, if one 325i has an auto dimming mirror and another does not, the entire wiring harness is different between the two vehicles.
Keep in mind that the wiring harness is like the electrical backbone of the car, weighs about 50 pounds, and runs contiguously from one end of the vehicle to the other. It is NOT something you want to mess with unless you really know what you are doing. In fact, if there is ever a problem in the wiring harness BMW recommends putting in a new one.
That brings me to reason number two. Alot of your aftermarket companies hire morons to install their electronics. I know this because I see it all the time.
For example, we had a customer buy a brand new M3 convertible (~$60K american) and they installed one of those Viper alarms that tells you to "Get BACK!" when you go near the car. The guy that installed it had the great idea of yanking out the headlight control module, chopping a piece out of the wiring that controls the headlights and splicing in there to get power for his alarm. Needless to say the car was NOT OK after this. Starting the vehicle would cause the headlights to freak out...they would switch on and off randomly. To make matters worse, the malfunction caused the autoleveling feature to kick in and make the lights to bob up and down.
This led to a cluster-f$#k with the customer and the service department. The customer was pointing fingers and yelling at the sales and service staff about what a piece of krap the car was and such. Things were pretty bad until we pulled out the light control module and showed them where the aftermarket guy had spliced in to the light system and where the control board had gotten fried.
I personally think the whole reason for the sticker is because BMW wants to maintain the integrity of the electrical system in the car and to make sure people understand that if their aftermarket device screws something up BMW is not gonna pay for it. Bmw even goes so far as to place prewiring jacks in the cars for most aftermarket devices you could want: bluetooth, satalite raio, mp3 players or line in devices for the stereo, phones, alarms, cd changers, and even Universal RF transcievers (programmable garage door opener).
You could even chalk it up to those strict German engineers if you want. God knows they hate it when people mess with their systems.
Re:It's a good fit (Score:3, Informative)
Happy? [google.com]
I'll second it. (Score:5, Interesting)
But, go ahead and visit a dealer. That should be pretty hard to fake
The reason for the sticker is that they don't want to be resposible for interference-testing every possible combination. I didn't heed the warning, and I found that when I kept my cell phone stashed away in the compartment under the radio, the radio would randomly turn off about every 45 minutes. Now, I keep it in the cup holder, and the radio is fine.
I also suspect that interference is the reason they moved the computer into the engine area - they used to keep them in the passenger area, where the temperature is controlled (and not searingly hot), but that provides less shielding.
Not a problem (Score:5, Insightful)
It will just make it that much easier to decide which manufacturers I'd consider the next time I buy a car, since there will a few that will immediately excluded.
hooray for MS (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:hooray for MS (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:hooray for MS (Score:4, Interesting)
1. Automatically switch on/off lights. Citroen C5, C8 and BMW 6 series. Possibly others.
2. Automatically switch on/off wipers and control wipers frequency. C5 at least.
3. Automatically retune suspension pressure and do autolevelling and compensation in sharp turns. C5 at least.
These are features I personally do not like being entrusted to anything but dedicated simple feedback systems with manual override. The last thing you want is the car to flip in the wrong direction when taking a sharp turn at 40mph on a wet mountain road (example taken out of a C5 commercial)
Honda (or at least Acura) doesn't need MS (Score:3, Informative)
I've also seen the navigation systems in both
except the BMW 7-series is practically undriveable (Score:5, Interesting)
except that 7-series owners are trading their iDrive-equipped(and hideous-looking) cars in for Mercedes and Audis. They just don't "get" iDrive, and since it's tied into so many goddamn features on the car, if you don't "get" it, you're not "getting" most of the car. WinCE has been a -spectacular- failure in that car. There are videos running around the net showing a guy's 750iL hunting for gears on the highway, closing+opening the trunk incessantly, ejecting the key from the keyslot(making it impossible to start the car!), changing radio stations on its own...
If you want to see the interface done right, check out an Audi A8L with MMC. Similar idea, but instead of putting absolutely everything on the dial and making you push/pull/twist/etc, it's simply an "adjuster"; buttons around the dial are used to actually navigate around the menus. Oh, and it's also not in control of absolutely everything in the bloody car. It's only in charge of suspension settings, the radio, phone, and nav system(actually, it might have climate control too, I forget.)
The running joke in the auto industry is that the only reason Chris Bangle(BMW designer who ruined the 7-series and now the 5-series) has a job is that all his bosses got 7-series cars and can't get them out of the driveway to go into headquarters and fire him.
Re:except the BMW 7-series is practically undrivea (Score:5, Informative)
BMW's newer models were not nearly the only bad examples.
Trying to discover where they've hidden some control in an N-level-deep menu tree is extremely distracting. You don't want this when you're driving.
Of course, if you screw up, the manufacturer will just call it an "operator error".
Re:hooray for MS (Score:5, Insightful)
For what? What need is there for a computerized interface to the locking mechanism. Or the fuel system?, or any engine functions?
Familiarity is also key.
Familiarity? I turn the key, the door unlocks (or locks). I turn the key, the engine starts (stops). That's familiar. Any computer involved in these functions need not have a "user" interface, GUI or other.
Add some flashy, touch screen navigation,
OK, fine GUI is nice for this, but that's not something I'll be happy giving up reliable performance and working doors for. Why does it have to be full fledged, or based on sometghing I've used before? All I need is a place to enter my destination (I'm assuming it has a GPS) and the ability to retrieve and show a map, estimate travel time, fuel consumption, suggest directions, etc. Manny OS can do this, and I'm sure that WinCE is fine for this, but the OS of such a system is hardly a selling point to the consumer, brand loyalty has no effect when it all relys on how it looks and other embedded systems are perfectly capable of appearing the same or better. Why should navigation be conected to the other functions in any way other than knowing how much fuel is in the tank and at what rate is it being consumed?
The entire conept seems to be a poorly thought out scheme to sell product without concern for actual need, reliability and efficiency of design. Sometimes the separation of functions and the subsequent duplication duplication of effort is a good thing, especially when the issue is the reliability of essential functions (such as engine operation and being able to get out of the car) in the case of failure of non-essential functions (Oh no, my navigation system's on the fritz! Honey, would you please get the map from the glove compartment?).
... or there's iTron (Score:3, Interesting)
I wonder if anyone is looking at any of the
Re:hooray for MS (Score:3, Informative)
Win CE/PPC 2003 (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Win CE/PPC 2003 real-time/mission critical (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Win CE/PPC 2003 (Score:3, Insightful)
Trapped inside a locked car? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Trapped inside a locked car? (Score:5, Interesting)
In my brand new Honda Accord, I came out to the cold Canadian air last week, pressed the button on my key to open the door, and All I heard was a faint thudding click. It seemed the locking mechanism was a tad frozen ( it was -26c that night).
Repeated attempts were not producing results, so I inserted the key into the lock, figuring I'd just open in manually. It turns out there is no physical connection to the locking mechanism, the key simply triggers the electronic lock!
Needless to say, I ended up popping the trunk with the remote, and crawling thru, pushing down the back seat. When I got inside the car, I had to end up pulling the lock up mannualy, and boy was it ever stuck.
Seems like a simple thing, but how the hell could some idiot engineer put together a single point of failure for getting into the car?
What if the battery was dead? then neither the trunk nor the door would open, and I couldn't get in to pop the hood to replace the battery. Needless to say, I'm still quite pissed about it.
I'll be yelling rather profusely at the Honda rep this week.
G
Re:Trapped OUTside a locked car? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Trapped OUTside a locked car? (Score:3, Funny)
That would KICK ASS. But with the way we insist on individual transportation in Canada everybody would have to have their own sled+team and we would end up with dogs outnumbering people 10 to 1.
Pets.com was ahead of its time.
Cardows Update (Score:5, Funny)
have you heard this one? (Score:3, Funny)
Thai Dignitary--myth busting (Score:5, Informative)
http://asia.cnet.com/newstech/systems/0,3900115
Worrying... (Score:5, Insightful)
Their handheld / 'CE' operating systems are no different, and quite simply I wouldn't knowingly buy a car where the majority of its tricks and gizmo's were Microsoft powered.
Non Critical (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I think it's no big deal. Just remember these are all non-critical components.
I'd start to worry if they operated the controllers for engine/fuel/drive-by-wire systems. etc.
Re:Non Critical (Score:3, Insightful)
I can just see someone driving down the road and their Indash navigation system locks up. And as they are fumbling with buttons to reboot/reset the damn thing they crash into a telephone pole and take down the DSL connections in that neighboorhood. All because they took their EYES off the road for a few seconds.
And they are proud of it too... (Score:5, Funny)
Microsoft Technology Hits the Road in BMW 7 Series [microsoft.com]:
Posters Should Read the Links They Provide (Score:5, Insightful)
Did you actually read the article????
It starts with this paragraph
BMW has told CNETAsia that an electronic fault caused the problem, rather than a system crash of the car's Windows-based central computer, as other reports have speculated.
and ends with
But when contacted by CNETAsia, a spokeswoman from BMW Thailand said the car at fault was a 10-year old BMW 520i that had suffered a simple electronic failure.
Re:Posters Should Read the Links They Provide (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Posters Should Read the Links They Provide (Score:3, Informative)
Grab.
Reminds me of this one... (Score:5, Funny)
"I know", said the Departmental Manager, "Let's have a meeting, propose a Vision, formulate a Mission Statement, define some Goals, and by a process of Continuous Improvement, Change Management, Re-Engineering and Service Integration, find a solution to the Critical Problems, and we can be on our way."
"No, no", said the Hardware Engineer, "That will take far too long, and besides, that method has never worked before. I've got my Swiss Army knife with me, and in no time at all I can strip
down the car's braking system, isolate the fault, fix it, and we can be on our way."
"Well", said the Software Engineer, "Before we do anything, I think we should push the car back up the road and see if it happens again."
I wouldn't buy a Microsoft-powered car (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What I'm wondering is... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not quite. If you read the article, Microsoft's emphasis was on getting networked computers into cars. Whether or not it's 802.11g is irrelevant; viruses were spreading via networks long before 802.11g was even a possibility. So perhaps they would use the existing cell phone infrastructure.
I mean, 15 years ago an email virus was thought impossible - email was plaintext, and everybody knew that plain text couldn't carry viruses.
There's no reason to trust MS cars, but..... (Score:5, Interesting)
"We couldn't breathe because there was no air," he added.
I have not yet met the car that was utterly and completley sealed. And there's a lot of air in the passenger space of even a small sports car, and this was a "luxury car". See below for more reasons why, even if it were completley sealed, this is totally stupid. Even if they mean no air conditioning, I can't imagine in the time this occurred it got so hot they couldn't breathe.
To draw attention, the minister and his driver waved frantically at passers-by. The incident ended only after a nearby security guard smashed the car's windows with a sledgehammer.
Even with the heavy-duty tool, Suchart said it took a long time to break the windows as the "glass proved to be very resistant".
The harrowing experience lasted about 10 minutes, he said.
Let's see "it took a long time.... about 10 minutes". What exactly is wrong with this statement? Certainly 10 minutes is longer than you expect for a sledgehammer to go through glass, but even so, that's NOT really a long time. Certainly not enough time to asphyxiate. Can you say complete panic?
Re:There's no reason to trust MS cars, but..... (Score:5, Insightful)
And what's wrong with the 10 minute figure? It didn't take 10 minutes to smash through the glass, it took ten minutes to attract someone without using a horn, who then notified a security guard, who then had to find a sledgehammer. I'm sure few have them strapped to their belts as standard equipment.
Every year here we have cases of babies locked inside cars on a hot summer day while the parent runs inside for some quick errands. In many cases these babies end up in the hospital, after not much more than 10 minutes of being in such conditions.
Re:There's no reason to trust MS cars, but..... (Score:5, Funny)
What is the difference between final control in Japanese and Yugoslav car factory?
In Japan they put a cat in the car and seal the doors. Tomorrow if the cat is still alive that means that sealing is not good because air managed to get in.
In Yugoslavia we also put a cat in the car but tomorrow we check is the cat still in the car or she managed to escape.
--
No cats were harm during posting this message.
BSOYFGTTW (Score:5, Funny)
Stop: 0X0000000A (0X00000000, 0X00000002, 0X00000001, 0X80448BF6)
IRQL_NOT_LESS OR EQUAL
Adress 80448BF6 base at 80400000, DateStamp
3d366b8b - brake.exe
Beginning dump of physical facial bones
idrive issues (Score:3, Interesting)
In other news, try getting a service on an engine management system over 15 years old. Almost impossible. I think I'll go back to carbs
Microsoft Joke (Score:5, Funny)
The MS guys say, "Whoa! Wait a minute, how are you all going to ride with only one ticket."
"You'll see," they replied.
Everyone boards the train and the MS employees take their seats while all three Apple employees cram into the bathroom. A while later the ticket taker comes down the isles and takes the tickets from the MS employees. He passes the bathroom, notes that it says "Occupied" and softly knocks on the door. "Ticket please," he says. Slowly, the door cracks open, one hand reaches out and hands him a ticket. A few minutes later, the Apple employees emerge from the bathroom and take seats, much to the amazement of the MS employees.
After the conference, on the way back home, the same employees are reboarding the train. The MS people, having deftly learned a new trick, buy just one ticket. The Apple employees then say, we aren't going to buy a ticket this time. MS peoples' jaws drop, but everyone gets on the train.
The MS people quickly cram into the bathroom, and the Apple employees go into a different bathroom. After a couple of minutes, one of the Apple employees comes out of the bathroom, walks up to the door of the bathroom that the MS employees are hiding in, knocks on it, and says:
"Ticket please"
Re:cycling? Microsoft Joke (Score:3, Insightful)
Or was it engineer/mathematics?
Anyway, the engineer part is important, as it shows the pragmatism of an engineer on most matters in contrast to their humouristic antagonists.
The transposition of the joke on Mac/Win lacks this kind of insight as pragmatism is, IMHO, not the distinguishing attribute of a Mac user.
Bumps and the BMW 7 series (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Bumps and the BMW 7 series (Score:3, Funny)
I'll be in the area in a few weeks
SSX5 (Score:4, Interesting)
The main reason being you want a real small real time kernel tucked in there for the engine controller, ABS, stability control, traction control, gear box.
All those systems are normally kept on a seperate network for traffic to from any telematics (industry BS word for the nav, steroe, DVD, phone, climate etc...). If they do use the big optical network it is through a gate way that is written to safety critical standards. Of course not every writer of safety critical or safety related software meets what I would consider adequate standards.
Windows CE is getting to be moderately stable. But (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think I'd want my car powered by embedded Linux, either. There are a lot of high quality well-designed dedicated real-time operating systems that don't have a legacy "big system" design. Why not stick with them? Going to Microsoft for your embedded systems is like going to Navistar for your family car, or to Halliburton for your swimming pool.
I was trapped (Score:5, Interesting)
The car was still operational, though, so I drove to a friend's house and eventually got their attention. Two hours later a locksmith finally got me out. In the mean time I had to sit through each passerby feeling compelled to go around the car and try every door, and then signal me to pull up on the lock. As if somehow no one had yet thought of that. It was a bit like waiting for an elevator, where each new arrival feels the need to press the button.
Two words... (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't it ironic... most cars now have latches to let kids and gangsters out of trunks, yet now you can't get out of the car when its OS freezes? Good grief!
How many times has the Enterprise been saved (or blown up to kill bad guys) through the use of manual overrides? I should be able to get out of my car, even if the battery is drained and the computer is drained. If it's good enough for Jean Luc, it's good enough for me!
No Microsoft products in security related devices (Score:5, Informative)
Embedded != Embedded. MS products maybe used in cars, but largely in the "infotainment" sector.
WinCE is much too big for the tiny microcontrollers that control engines, breakes, gear shifts and so on.. As is Java.
If you want to really what going on in car electronics look for example for the OSEK/VDX initiative [osek-vdx.org], a consortium of german and french carmakers.
Does anyone remember? (Score:4, Interesting)
AAA would be unaffordable! (Score:5, Interesting)
I hope the government forces car companies to label any car with an MS OS in it. Caveat emptor!
drug dealer car for the ambassador (Score:5, Interesting)
Solution to the problem? A fire ax became standard equipment in the back seat of that car.
I never got to see the car, but I always imagined it as totally pimp-rific.
If Linux Users Built Cars... (Score:3, Funny)
Open v Closed (Score:4, Interesting)
I still cary the same bag of tools in the trunk of the Benz, but mostly out of stubborn habit (and the fact that they provided a hidey-hole for them that was exactly the same size as my bag ;-), but I know that there's no way I'll be able to work on my new car with all the electronics.
As it was, I just had it winterized and requested they put a trickle-charger on the battery instead of a blanket heater. They had to disconnect the battery to do this. When I got back into the the car to drive it home all the electronic devices - seats, windows, sunroof, mirrors, etc. refused to work properly until they were "reset" - meaning run through their entire range twice. I paniced and thought the dealership had totally screwed my car up until I realized how to get functionality back.
Take this to the extreme then. What happens when, instead of just windows and seats, we have steer-, accelerate-, and brake-by-wire in our vehicles? If a computer program is controling this instead of some sort of redundant solid-state system, I want it to be bullet proof and open to public review - with the ability to mod it if I feel the need (yes, yes, warrantly, blah, blah) I just don't want a completely closed system where I have to trust the manufacturer (or God forbid, Microsoft) with critical systems in my car. And since it is MY car, I want the freedom to be able to "get under the hood" if I want/need to.
Excuse me but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Can I have that car without Windows, please? (Score:5, Funny)
Here Is What the Automotive Press Thinks. (Score:4, Interesting)
Car and Driver Magazine reviewed 6 luxury sedans in their December 2003 issue [caranddriver.com]. They rated the Lexus and the Jaguar 1 and 2. Here is what they said about the BMW iDrive:
Driving will become much more hazardous... (Score:3, Funny)
At the next car expo: (Score:5, Funny)
uuhh...moving right along...
Bill Gates: So this must be why we're not shipping Windows Car yet.
Absolutely!
Imagine the possibilities for script kiddies (Score:5, Funny)
People will have their cars recalled 3-4 times a year to apply the latest patch.
You might have viruses that spread from car to car.
There'll be the IloveYou kind of virus, or blaster kind of virus, that will shut down traffic and cause millions of accidents within hours of release to the wild.
There's the jerusalem style of virus that will crash all cars on the planet at a predetermined time.
There'll be backdoors and IRC robots, where the script kiddies in stead of trying to shut down a web site in a DDDOS attack, will instead take control over cars, and use real people as objects in a videogame.
Or more innocent viruses that hijacks a car's stereo, and starts blasting Wang Chung at full volume.
Scary. The scariest part is that this is not crazy science fiction. By all signs, I don't see that any of this is avoidable, given MS current dominance, their awful track record on security, and the extremely weak consumer protection laws.
Lawsuit bait (Score:5, Informative)
Software manufacturers have been immune from this before, because everyone "knows" that computers are unreliable and crash. A jury isn't going to care that your desktop burst into flame and lost all your data. That's state of the art in the zeitgeist. But juries drive cars and are more sympathetic to claims against their makers. Do you want to be defending Microsoft when the other side shows the birthday party videos of the little girl who was immolated in the fiery wreck caused by your software?
Re:Old MS car joke... (Score:5, Funny)
Hey, see that link in the article? That's right, the very first one?
Click it, and it leads to...
..wait for it...
That's right! The same old joke you just reposted! Tell him what he's won, Rod!
He's one a 5-day, 4-night stay in beautiful RTFALand! We'll fly him and a guest non stop to a room where he can sit and actually read the articles before posting ancient jokes we've all seen before that are referenced by the article itself!
Re:Hmm... (Score:5, Interesting)
The trouble with such a highly computerized car...I feel, is that once you get electrical demons in there...they are almost impossible to get rid of. Their diagnostic stuff could never catch the problems.
I sold it...got a 1986 Porsche Turbo (half the price...half the monthly note). Yes, things do still break...and expensive to repair, BUT, most everything on the car is mechanical....and if something does go wrong...my mechanic can usually diagnose the problem quickly...and find a quick fix for it.
I'm now up to almost 10 mpg....and it runs like a rocket sled on rails. I'm a definite believe in a more 'mechanical' car....much more dependable and easier to maintain IMHO.
Re:Hmm... (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyway, the chicks liked that car.
Re:Hmm... (Score:5, Interesting)
'NEEDS' have nothing to do with it. How many gadgets do you need? Well, not many. How many can you have if you really want? How many fish in the sea man?
I submitted a story about this a while ago (rejected of course because I don't know the secret handshake), in the latest high end models, the cost of the electronics is rapidly approaching 50% of the cost of the car. Yes nearly HALF!
Well, you've got all those things like navigation, tuner, TV, MP3 player, cellphone, rearview camera, electronic windows and mirrors, A/C, let's just put it all in one box baby! And all the bits can talk to each other. So when your airbag goes off, your cellphone can automatically make an emergency call, retrieving your GPS coordinates from the navigation system. Or, when your engine management system predicts failure of some critical component within 100 miles, it navigates you straight to the nearest service centre. You need it *all* man, come on baby you know you want it?
I swear I'm not making this stuff up, I write software for some of these systems! And yes, there's a hell of a lot of it. And like you, it completely doesn't fill me with confidence how much of the car is being taken over by this stuff.
For example from the article:
"We couldn't breathe because there was no air"
and
"it took a long time to break the windows as the "glass proved to be very resistant"
Now that is scary. What happened to manual backups? On my washing machine, there's an electronic door opener, but there's also a hidden tab you can pull manually in the event of a power cut etc. There's no way in hell it should be impossible to open the doors if the system crashes, that really sucks! There's no way those systems are bulletproof.
Man, I can't wait for electronic brakes!!!
Not bikes, tanks. (Score:4, Interesting)
Here's a little exerp:
Imagine a crossroads where four competing auto dealerships are situated. One of them (Microsoft) is much, much bigger than the others. It started out years ago selling three-speed bicycles (MS-DOS); these were not perfect, but they worked, and when they broke you could easily fix them.
There was a competing bicycle dealership next door (Apple) that one day began selling motorized vehicles--expensive but attractively styled cars with their innards hermetically sealed, so that how they worked was something of a mystery.
The big dealership responded by rushing a moped upgrade kit (the original Windows) onto the market. This was a Rube Goldberg contraption that, when bolted onto a three-speed bicycle, enabled it to keep up, just barely, with Apple-cars. The users had to wear goggles and were always picking bugs out of their teeth while Apple owners sped along in hermetically sealed comfort, sneering out the windows. But the Micro-mopeds were cheap, and easy to fix compared with the Apple-cars, and their market share waxed.
Eventually the big dealership came out with a full-fledged car: a colossal station wagon (Windows 95). It had all the aesthetic appeal of a Soviet worker housing block, it leaked oil and blew gaskets, and it was an enormous success. A little later, they also came out with a hulking off-road vehicle intended for industrial users (Windows NT) which was no more beautiful than the station wagon, and only a little more reliable.
Since then there has been a lot of noise and shouting, but little has changed. The smaller dealership continues to sell sleek Euro-styled sedans and to spend a lot of money on advertising campaigns. They have had GOING OUT OF BUSINESS! signs taped up in their windows for so long that they have gotten all yellow and curly. The big one keeps making bigger and bigger station wagons and ORVs.
On the other side of the road are two competitors that have come along more recently.
One of them (Be, Inc.) is selling fully operational Batmobiles (the BeOS). They are more beautiful and stylish even than the Euro-sedans, better designed, more technologically advanced, and at least as reliable as anything else on the market--and yet cheaper than the others.
With one exception, that is: Linux, which is right next door, and which is not a business at all. It's a bunch of RVs, yurts, tepees, and geodesic domes set up in a field and organized by consensus. The people who live there are making tanks. These are not old-fashioned, cast-iron Soviet tanks; these are more like the M1 tanks of the U.S. Army, made of space-age materials and jammed with sophisticated technology from one end to the other. But they are better than Army tanks. They've been modified in such a way that they never, ever break down, are light and maneuverable enough to use on ordinary streets, and use no more fuel than a subcompact car. These tanks are being cranked out, on the spot, at a terrific pace, and a vast number of them are lined up along the edge of the road with keys in the ignition. Anyone who wants can simply climb into one and drive it away for free.
Customers come to this crossroads in throngs, day and night. Ninety percent of them go straight to the biggest dealership and buy station wagons or off-road vehicles. They do not even look at the other dealerships.
Of the remaining ten percent, most go and buy a sleek Euro-sedan, pausing only to turn up their noses at the philistines going to buy the station wagons and ORVs. If they even notice the people on the opposite side of the road, selling the cheaper, technically superior vehicles, these customers deride them cranks and half-wits.
The Batmobile outlet sells a few vehicles to the occasional car nut who wants a second vehicle to go with his station wagon, but seems to accept, at least for now, that it's a fringe player.
The group giving away the free tanks onl