Windows 11 SE Won't Be Sold Separately, Can't Be Reinstalled Once Removed (arstechnica.com) 87
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: Microsoft is taking the fight to Chromebooks in schools with the $250 Surface Laptop SE, but inexpensive hardware is only part of the equation. One reason Chromebooks have succeeded in education is because of Chrome OS, which is well-suited for lower-end hardware, easy for IT administrators to manage, and hard to break with errant apps or malware. Microsoft's answer to Chrome OS is Windows 11 SE. Unlike past efforts like Windows in S mode (which is still its own separate thing), Windows 11 SE isn't just a regular version of Windows with a cheaper license or a cut-down version that runs fewer apps. Windows 11 SE defaults to saving all files (including user profile information) to students' OneDrive accounts, and it has had some standard Windows 11 features removed to ensure a "distraction-free" learning environment that performs better on low-end devices. The operating system also gives IT administrators exclusive control over the apps and browser extensions that can be installed and run via Microsoft Intune.
If you're a school IT administrator with a fleet of PC laptops or desktops, you might wonder if you can buy and install Windows 11 SE on hardware you already have so you can benefit from its changes without buying new hardware. The answer, Microsoft tells us, is no. The only way to get Windows 11 SE is on laptops that ship with Windows 11 SE. And if you re-image a Windows 11 SE device with a different version of Windows 10 or Windows 11, it won't even be possible to reinstall Windows 11 SE after that. [...] Microsoft has published documentation (PDF) that more fully explains the differences between Windows 11 SE and the other editions of Windows (including Windows in S mode).
If you're a school IT administrator with a fleet of PC laptops or desktops, you might wonder if you can buy and install Windows 11 SE on hardware you already have so you can benefit from its changes without buying new hardware. The answer, Microsoft tells us, is no. The only way to get Windows 11 SE is on laptops that ship with Windows 11 SE. And if you re-image a Windows 11 SE device with a different version of Windows 10 or Windows 11, it won't even be possible to reinstall Windows 11 SE after that. [...] Microsoft has published documentation (PDF) that more fully explains the differences between Windows 11 SE and the other editions of Windows (including Windows in S mode).
Will MS be handling the recycling? (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't image it back to SE at all. So the device is junk in many use cases. Will MS be handling the recycling of this, or are they just willing to contribute to the waste stream?
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Re: Will MS be handling the recycling? (Score:3)
Anyone who would be replacing SE with another OS is likely smart enough to not render the device a "useless pile of junk".
Unless of course notebooks with SE have a very nasty surprise in store for those who put another OS on it. Locked boot loader, or maybe video stuck in 16 color low rez VGA mode and the soundcard does not work.
Re: Will MS be handling the recycling? (Score:2)
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256 color CGA wasn't a thing. It had 4 or 16 colors depending on the resolution.
CGA (Color Graphics Adapter): The first color monitor and graphics cards for PC computers. Capable of producing 16 colors at 160x200 pixels.
EGA (Enhanced Graphics Adapter): Following CGA, an adapter that could display 16 colors with a screen resolution of 640x350 pixels.
Re: Will MS be handling the recycling? (Score:2)
Oops my bad.
Yeah, Windows 3.11 often would be stuck in 16 color EGA mode until I got the correct drivers for it to work properly under Dosbox. Rarely did I attempt to run Windows 95 and above in Dosbox
Re: Will MS be handling the recycling? (Score:2)
..of course, if M$ really wanted to be sinister they could get the Surface manufactuer to limit non Win SE oses to 16 color EGA.
very good news from MS! (Score:5, Funny)
>> Windows 11 SE Won't Be Sold
>> Can't Be Reinstalled
Two very good news from MS, for a change !
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THREE, actually!
... Windows 11 SE defaults to saving all files (including user profile information) to students' OneDrive accounts, ...
According to this part of the summary, I think that there's also some planned obsolescence involved. Didn't Microsoft mention that they're shutting down OneDrive?
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I'm not sure where this claim that Ars is making comes from. The FAQ Microsoft released doesn't mention it, only that you have to use their InTune software to do reimaging.
Perhaps what they mean is you can't download an ISO of Windows 11 SE, you have to use the recovery partition on the device itself. If you wipe the recovery partition you can't recreate it... Except by restoring from a backup, or probably by just copying the image from another similar device.
In any case, I'm sure someone will figure out ho
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Microsoft needs better management. (Score:1)
Re: Microsoft needs better management. (Score:5, Funny)
Your memo comes 35 years too late.
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You mean they've changed?
but what about running chrome? (Score:2)
The big question is, can you install Chrome OS on these new Windows 11 SE laptops?
Also, will there be a Windows 11 Student Edition Special Edition? (W11-SESE)
Re:but what about running chrome? (Score:5, Insightful)
The big question is, can you install Chrome OS on these new Windows 11 SE laptops?
Why? It is cheaper to just buy a Chromebook.
Re:but what about running chrome? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: but what about running chrome? (Score:5, Informative)
I can see people being 'tricked' into buying this machine thinking they are getting Windows, and then finding out it's gimped up crap that is only named "Windows". Rather than junk the machine, or go through the hassle of returning it, they want to put real Windows on it, or maybe Linux.
This is crazy. My low end laptop has real Windows 10 on it, well "in S mode" which I was able to fix with a free update from the Microsoft app store so I had real Windows, and it cost the same as these forever locked S mode laptops mentioned in TFA.
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Rather than junk the machine, or go through the hassle of returning it, they want to put real Windows on it
TFS points out the reason you might end up unable to get Windows 11 SE back onto the device is precisely because you put "real Windows" on it: And if you re-image a Windows 11 SE device with a different version of Windows 10 or Windows 11...
Re: but what about running chrome? (Score:2)
Honestly, why would anybody want SE back?
Sux for school administrators, but hardly anyone else.
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Honestly, why would anybody want SE back?
I can't imagine anybody would...seems Microsoft thinks the same.
Re: Remember "windows rt"? (Score:2)
We see this every couple years. M$ is always trying to push a badly crippled verson of Windows onto consumers, the bad press spreads quick, and then it fails.
Later they pull the same stunt under a different name. This has got to stop.
Re: Remember "windows rt"? (Score:2)
"Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM"
This line of thinking is still true today for M$, and M$ isn't going away anytime soon.
These Windows Crippled Editions are more annoying than anything. Like a fly.
But a few people will get rooked, like before. SE will die soon, like before. And then make a brief come back, like before.
Kind of like dealing with houseflies.
Re: Remember "windows rt"? (Score:2)
Because of the name, that's why.
The masses are not going to just up and move to an unknown even if the company is 100% trustworthy. It takes time to build up a user base, a name for yourself, and trust that you are not just some fly by night who will disappear the next day with all their data.
Chrome OS wins again (Score:5, Insightful)
As much as I hate Chrome OS, it seems it beats WinSE on this. You can install, update, refresh, or transfer your CrOS. And amazingly enough, Google hasn't yet killed Neverware Cloudready. So even previously unsupported hardware can now run cros, such as a recycling an older PC laptop.
Linux more broadly seems ripe for institutions. If Canonical or Red Hat could figure this out, a student version that is suitable for web-based applications and IT-managed organizations. It's all theoretically possible to have easy remote access/VPN, video streaming, etc. It boils down to a small effort to configure a Linux install for one or two pieces of hardware. And a very large effort to make it work on most hardware in a BYO device situation.
Re: Chrome OS is quite fine... (Score:2)
Chrome OS is a for all intents and purposes is a thin client. This is perfect for schools where laptops get broken, vandalized, stolen, etc.
But outside of that, most people want a traditional laptop.
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But outside of that, most people want a traditional laptop.
I think most people want to have reliable internet access wherever they go. And once that is available they want to have a device that is inexpensive, light weight, easily replaced, and with a long battery life. Ideally where any work created on it can be immediately accessed from a phone, desktop, or second laptop.
All of these point to people wanting a thin client. But the facts today are that they still mainly buy "traditional" laptops. Some of this is consumer inertia and some of this is that thin client
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Chrome OS is quite fine... ...if all you want to do is run light phone level apps, and not computation intensive programs.
Which is what over 99.999% of laptop owners world wide want to do.
Billions upon billions of people, compared to thousands at best that want to run computation intensive programs on a laptop. I doubt it is even in the high thousands.
People wanting to run computation intensive programs don't do it on laptops. The bare minimum hardware is a high end desktop, and anyone serious about it uses server grade hardware in high multiples.
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There's a whole world of consumer software between the two extremes. Almost all of it in fact. You don't need a desktop for Photoshop, AutoCAD, programming, etc,etc,etc - if you could do it on a desktop 10 years ago, you can probably do it just fine on a laptop today.
Heck, you can even do relatively high-end 3D gaming on a powerful laptop. I'll be the first to say a desktop offers far better price, performance, and reliability... but a whole lot of people prefer the small size and/or portability of a lapt
lack of re-imageing is bad (Score:2)
lack of re-imaging is bad and no clean install choice?
And hardware locked? what if we want to install on lab systems? VM's? sharded systems?
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Why do you have this strange idea that it matters to MS what you want?
Re: lack of re-imageing is bad (Score:2)
Why not just go with full Windows 11 on a VM.
This is just the biannual attempt of M$ selling Windows CE (Crippled Edition), probally hoping people will pony up cash for real Windows (double dipping?).
This will fail, like the others, and return under a different letter suffix in a couple more years.
My God Microsoft (Score:2)
Now I understand. (Score:2)
Or you could buy an 11 inch android tablet (Score:2)
with far far better specs for $266
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09B... [amazon.com]
With web apps, using chrome, probably not a bit of difference to SE web apps.
If you're looking for a tablet, 4GB of memory (RAM) is a pretty sweet spot.
This is why Microsoft is such a pain (Score:5, Insightful)
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Single OS? Like... linux?
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Just make a single OS already... I feel so sorry for the consumer these days with this kind of shenanigans.
I don't know how this god modded up. The idea that a one-size-fits-all OS exists is asinine. Having different flavours of an OS for different use cases is Linux's greatest strength. Not trying to tabletify MacOS and dedicate something specific to the hardware is one of the core reasons for Apple's success.
Seriously you feel sorry for consumers because there's a Windows 11 Home, Pro and SE? Fuck me backwards you have a stupified view of the world.
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It's bad enough that they're "mobilizing" the UI of proper Windows for the people who use it on devices that have touchscreens and in the process making the UI worse for mouse users. I don't want a lowest-common-denominator version of Windows on my PC. That would be hell to use. Conversely, a version that had all the features regular Windows has, wouldn't be fit for use as a Chromebook (like
Free advertizing. (Score:3)
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I think you misspelt ChromeOS. Literally zero people will be considering Linux as an alternative to the market Windows SE is targeting.
They're way late to the party. (Score:4, Informative)
Chrome/ChromeOS are basically the educational standard at this point - excepting iPads and specialized use cases - at least as far as student hardware.
As far as vendor lock in goes it's the same, and as the summary says, it's far easier to manage. Adding even more artificial limitations won't help them gain market share. My district has had tens of thousands of Chromebooks in kid's hands since CV-19 started. No one bought S before either.
We did have HP Streams at one point, but as much I hate Chrome everything, it's far easier to work with these from a support perspective (the hardware is still garbage tier). We've had Apple sales reps trying to get us to replace them, but all they can offer are iPads and those cost 3x as much.
Re: They're way late to the party. (Score:3)
Chromebook has turned into a generic name for the kind of laptop it is. Like Xerox for copiers.
When a product becomes that entrenched in a market, it is very hard to dethrone it.
I just see this as another "Windows Phone", though perhaps being not nearly as good.
Microshaft Garbage (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Microshaft Garbage (Score:2)
Chrome OS laptops for school, Windows (without the funny suffix) for office and other serious work.
Chrome OS found it's market, and is an easy working solution for the rough on hardware enviroment that is grade school.
From what I gather here, M$'s Chromebook attempt is a half assed 'solution' that is a nightmare for grade schools that do not have a dedicated, professionally trained IT department.
Even if it's not, Chrome OS is way ahead in the game here.
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Re: Microshaft Garbage (Score:2)
I imagine those laptops were running real Windows without the funny suffixes. Even S mode might be superior to the SE being discussed here.
I want to see them get a taste of SE and find out if they would have the same opinion with that.
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and Surface tablets are plastic junk
Surface tablets aren't made of plastic, and are selling well. Not sure why you would compare the trainwreak of Windows 11 SE to something that is actively being used and growing in popularity. Is this comparison ignorance or just wishful thinking? I'm thinking a bit of both since you mentioned "tablets" which are absolutely nothing at all to do with the Surface "Laptop" being discussed here.
I would sooner pay for a Chromebook than take a Surface for free.
LOL internet toughguy words. Don't buy it for a second (pun intended). You'll salivate at the option of taking somethi
The Special Edition just got more Special. (Score:5, Insightful)
Are they seriously thinking a school (district) will buy all new hardware just to be able to run what appears to be an inferior product to its competitor?
I'm no fan of ChromeOS, but damn, this seems like Microsoft is shooting themselves in the foot with a howitzer..
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Are they seriously thinking a school (district) will buy all new hardware just to be able to run what appears to be an inferior product to its competitor?
They will when MS says the discount on their desktop and server licenses depends on it.
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It's just Microsoft being Microsoft, and exercising their special skill of taking a meh idea that will probably work out just because of their size and turning it into a shitty idea that even the most zealous users won't touch with a barge pole.
I feel like I've seen this movie before (Score:4, Insightful)
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Except what killed netbooks was tablets and cheap laptops.
Chromebooks are not netbooks, because they leverage the web to an extent which was not possible at the time of netbooks. You can use a Chromebook to edit Office files, surf your fave sites, watch Netflix, play games (with some, but fewer than one might expect, limitations) all thanks to the power of the web.
Netbooks didn't have any of that. They seemed vastly inferior to a "real" computer. Chromebooks, to most people, do not.
Re:I feel like I've seen this movie before (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft definitely did their part to kill off the netbooks. They offered cheap/free Windows licenses for netbooks, but then put a bunch of restrictions on the hardware those licenses could be used on. Which is why every netbook had pretty much the exact same specifications no matter who made it. And then they never updated these specifications, which is why the same netbooks with the same weak processors, ram, and lousy 1024x600 screens were on the market for years in what seemed like some kind of time warp. Which is why the cheap laptop and tablet market wiped them out so quickly.
Brilliant (Score:3)
Students accidentally or "accidentally" blowing away the non-re-imagable Windows11 SE in 3...2...1...
Re: Brilliant (Score:3)
When laptops are handed over to grade school students, you know that you can expect a certain percentage to end up trashed, vandalized, naughty stuff being carved into the case and the screen, and locks cracked to install forbidden games on them. To even attempt to introduce a laptop defective in this manner (non re-imageable OS) is at the height of foolishness.
Did M$ even do as much as visit teacher forums to get an idea of the kind of abuse those machines are put through?
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Exactly. And since the inability to re-install is self inflicted damage and you can't prove the student did the damage deliberately (unlike naughty words carved in the case), even if the parents can afford it, it would be tough to make a case that they should pay.
Being a Microsoft product, I don't imagine it's all that hard to really bork the installed image.
Re: Brilliant (Score:2)
"Being a Microsoft product, I don't imagine it's all that hard to really bork the installed image."
And this helps to ensure that SE will be a non starter in the K-12 market.
Chromebook got it right. How come M$ can't do the same, and on top of that they would have such a glaring flaw like this?
Re: Brilliant (Score:2)
And just to stress the point I've already made, when I was in high school, a mentally disturbed kid had the habit of shorting out the leads of the power supply in electronics class to the grounded face plate of the control panel. Half the permanent workstations had their faceplates burned up in this manner. This is the kind of shit that goes on in schools.
And no, I don't know what was wrong with that kid, or why the school did little to punish him for that behavior. I imagine he is still sitting in a prison
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Chromebooks ability to go into developer mode and to easily blow it all away and return to factory condition is a real plus.
Apple has a similar capability. MS is the only player that makes it impossible to get back to factory, even with significant manual intervention.
Good (Score:2)
I knew it had to have at least one redeeming feature.
Dear Microsoft, please get a clue (Score:3)
Apple gets away with it because they have a reputation. Well, technically, so do you, but the difference is that Apple is a high class, 1000 dollar an hour prostitute while you're a crack ho.
Called our rep... (Score:2)
When he got back to us he said his email and voicemail are flooded with educators asking for standalone Win SE. Answer? No go. Oh well. They could likely sell as many licenses as devices if they did.
So reverse Hotel California (Score:3)
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"If you leave you can never come back"
So 'no-reinstall' of Win 11 SE is a feature.
People who install a different OS on the machines are unlikely to want to go back to the crippled MS Win 11 (-ish) Surface Pro laptop. Even if they want it back, they can't get it. This is a positive thing.
I don't think this issue will even come up. Who would want to back-grade to a crippled OS?
Uh...huh (Score:2)
"and it has had some standard Windows 11 features removed to ensure a "distraction-free"
Right, and the phalluses I drew in my workbook really were "rescue tubes".
news (Score:1)
Irrelevant software for those who are conscious of the issues.
Just when you believe it cannot be done... (Score:2)
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... Microsoft steps up to the plate and brings out an even more useless version.
It pains me to see Microsoft use the SE name in this way. Windows 98 SE was a good OS for gaming back in its day and I still consider Windows 98 SE to be the best of the non-NT based Windows version.
Reimage but no reinstall (Score:2)
If you can get to the hard drive, you can always restore a working image and the hardware wouldn't know the difference. That said, you have to take the image BEFORE you install whatever new OS you want.
While many on here are complaining about this, its not like you can install whatever you want on a Chromebook after you get it. I'd equate this to trying to load a different OS on an iPad. Sure you can try and maybe be successful, but other than a few hobbyists no one will care or try.
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Assuming that anyone cares about this OS, I don't think it will take long for technically skilled people to figure out how to reinstall the OS. That first part may be the kicker, however.
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Why bother, when there are dozens of better OSes out there. I hope GalliumOS gets right on it.
I'm running Kubuntu on my 8 year old Chromebook.