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Robotics Businesses China Iphone Apple Technology

Foxconn Factories' Future: Fewer Humans, More Robots 187

jfruh writes: Foxconn, which supplies much of Apple's manufacturing muscle and has been criticized for various labor sins, is now moving to hire employees who won't complain because they're robots. The company expects 70 percent of its assembly line work to be robot-driven within three years.
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Foxconn Factories' Future: Fewer Humans, More Robots

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  • by Anonymous Coward

    I take it the poor starving humans would die off and the customer base woudl be robots as well.. right?

    • by ranton ( 36917 )

      I take it the poor starving humans would die off and the customer base woudl be robots as well.. right?

      Do you really think Foxconn workers are Foxconn's customer base? I doubt Foxconn workers buy many iPads.

  • by ganjadude ( 952775 ) on Sunday March 01, 2015 @12:44AM (#49157117) Homepage

    Foxconn Factories' Future: Fewer Humans, More Robots

    Manufacturing Future: Fewer Humans, More Robots

    this, is pretty much what we have all known for quite a long time. as tech gets better, menial jobs become useless to humans because robots do it better.

    Also water is wet. news at 11

    • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Sunday March 01, 2015 @01:02AM (#49157169)
      Right, but the conversation that's being had around this is what are we going to do with all these people that we don't need anymore. Sure, we can say that the economy will catch up, but that might take 50, 60 years. In the meantime we'll have 2 or 3 lost generations who live in terrifying abject poverty. It'd be nice if this time around we did something about that...
      • by Anonymous Coward

        Soylent Robot Oil

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        what are we going to do with all these people that we don't need anymore. Sure, we can say that the economy will catch up, but that might take 50, 60 years.

        The same thing we've been doing as this process has gone on for hundreds of years.

        New generations train in other areas, make more money, and support the older generation. This isnt even unusual in China, whereas it would be in the US.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by khallow ( 566160 )

        Right, but the conversation that's being had around this is what are we going to do with all these people that we don't need anymore.

        Employ them. That's what China will do. The two or three "lost generations" is a developed world problem coming from an uncompetitive labor force.

        • is "Race to the Bottom", not "competitive workforce". It's a matter of perspective really. You're one of the lucky winners. If you had the wind knocked out of you by a few more rounds of offshoring though things might turn out differently for you.
          • by khallow ( 566160 )
            And I'll note here, that China just doesn't have these problems. They may not be as much a "bottom" as you'd like them to be.
      • by gl4ss ( 559668 )

        they're living in poverty while working for foxconn too so whats the difference?

        at least now they'll be hiring more decent engineers. the only reason they were using human labor in the first place in such amounts and in such boring easily automated tasks was that they lacked decent manufacturing engineers. in other words it was cheaper(or easier in their work culture) to hire 40 guys to put in screws instead of hiring 1 decent guy to first make a jig for the work and 1 guy pressing the button to do the work

      • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

        You mean all those people we don't need to do the work yet we need them to buy the product, else we don't have any need to make the product and thus have no need of robots.

        So we need to restructure out of wasteful mass consumption and shift to more sustainable with a focus on quality, durability and fit for life (products that last your lifetime, rather than fad or disposable products). So with robotics the model needs to change, from greed based to need based. With robotics who do we get rid of the empl

        • With robotics who do we get rid of the employers or the employees. It makes far more logical sense to eliminate the employers, rather than the employees. The employees employ the robots thus eliminating the need for employers.

          That also eliminates the need for cheap disposable shit that will disintegrate in short order and generate another visit to the crap shack. So it actually eliminates the need for many of the robots as well.

        • by Pulzar ( 81031 )

          So we need to restructure out of wasteful mass consumption and shift to more sustainable with a focus on quality, durability and fit for life (products that last your lifetime, rather than fad or disposable products).

          That only works for things like furniture and other simple solid objects. For everything else, the technology advances too fast to make this practical. Why make a car that works for 100 years when in 10-15 years the cars will be much more energy efficient and environmentally friendly, and we'll

        • by Bengie ( 1121981 )
          The employees can't afford the robots and it takes a while to pay off the investment for them. So the employees become the employer, except the employees can't afford the robots. Do you see a problem with this? Someone has to pay for the robots and they're too expensive to be owned individually and it would be wasteful because no one needs an entire factor of cars for themselves. The logical conclusion of what you're getting after is for the robots to be collectively owned, a form of socialism.
      • Increase manufacturing of course.

        The wonderful thing about freeing up human resources is they can go on to do other things. Yes it's not perfect but the reality is people have been saying x technology will destroy the workforce since manufacturing at scale began, and the reality has been that as people have been replaced, manufacturing has become cheaper and as a result we tend to manufacture more.

      • what proposals do you have that would not be stealing from others? because other than training in a new career, i dont see anything
      • by msobkow ( 48369 )

        That same conversation has been around since since the first saboteurs threw their shoes into the gears of factory equipment.

        The answer has never changed: society will evolve to a communist one because it has no choice if it's to avoid mass revolts and warfare.

        You have only to look to the inner cities of North America to see the unrest and riots that have already started over trigger-issues such as a citizen being shot by police. Those riots aren't just over the deaths; they're an expression of people

    • by Tablizer ( 95088 )

      It used to be that new technologies created new jobs as it destroyed old ones. But that's merely a historical pattern, not necessarily a law of nature, and it may end.

      It's kind of like Moore's Law: it's held so far, but nobody knows if it will keep.

      Many conservatives feel that if the gov't doesn't meddle, new jobs will come from somewhere. However, they are slow to name specifics. The few they could name are also ripe for offshoring.

      • However, they are slow to name specifics. The few they could name are also ripe for offshoring.

        That's because it's nearly impossible to predict specific future technologies with any accuracy. A century ago, no one could have even dreamed of the job I currently have. A decade ago, "mobile app developers" didn't even exist, at least not in any real quantity.

        Regarding the demise of Moore's Law. I'd like to share with you a quote from a year 2000 paper entitled "The End of Moore's Law?" [technologyreview.com]

        The industry’s newest chips have “pitches” as small as 180 nanometers (billionths of a meter). To accommodate Moore’s Law, according to the biennial “road map” prepared last year for the Semiconductor Industry Association, the pitches need to shrink to 150 nanometers by 2001 and to 100 nanometers by 2005. Alas, the road map admitted, to get there the industry will have to beat fundamental problems to which there are “no known solutions.” If solutions are not discovered quickly, Paul A. Packan, a respected researcher at Intel, argued last September in the journal Science, Moore’s Law will “be in serious danger.”

        Most new chips are at 22-28 nanometers now, 14nm chips are gearing up, and 10nm is in the pipeline. It's always amu

        • At 7nm, you start to near the point of 'the atoms are just too big.' Hard to engineer your way out of that one.

          • Naturally there's going to be a limit with the current silicon-based technology. At that point, we'll probably see attempts to work in other directions, such as moving into the realm of 3D, using new materials like graphene, silicon-germanian, or even pure germaniam (which could allow for lower voltages, and thus less consumption, tunneling, and leakage), or other techniques that no one has even contemplated yet.

            It should be interesting to see whether they'll succeed or not, and what that will mean for the

          • by itzly ( 3699663 )

            There's still a lot of space in the vertical direction.

            • not really, putting one extra processing layer on a processor doubles the heat generated and worse interferes with ability to radiate heat away.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Maxo-Texas ( 864189 )

          Actually, reviewing U6 and discouraged workers, we are at record levels of unemployment. Close to 25% of the working age population isn't working. They are going on disability early, retiring early- but many 16 to 54 year olds who worked in the past are not finding employment. I know several people in this category.

          It is much rougher for 30 year olds than it was when I was 30. Some retrain and then the job they were training for is swamped by so many applicants that wages are supressed.

          I was hoping reti

          • by Bengie ( 1121981 )

            Advances in AI will make it possible to replace large swaths of 'smart' and 'creative' jobs by 2050.

            Solving a problem is the easiest part. The hardest part is identifying and describing the problem. Once AIs can both identify and solve problems, then there will be absolutely nothing left for humans for "jobs".

          • As of January 2015, the U6 rate is at 11.3% [stlouisfed.org], from a high of 17.1% in 2009-10. U6 includes discouraged workers (U4 and up) and even "underemployed" workers (part-timers that would prefer to be full time), and so is probably a bit high if you're talking about actual unemployment. No, we're absolutely not at record levels of unemployment.

            Moreover, no one uses "percentage of working age people not working" as an unemployment metric (unless you want to inflate the figure), because that includes people who choo

            • Nothing made up, U6 even includes "underemployed" beside the "short term discouraged". Not the mocking "percentage of working age not working" phrase you coined.

              There used to be a broader rank used by the Bureau of Labor Statistics before the 90s, and by THAT measure we have near 25% unemployment. That's the old method that shadowstats.com uses, for example.

            • First - you need to watch out for averages. The average includes billionaires who skew the hell out of your result. You should use the median over the average in any situation like this. The median net worth is $140k for boomers near retirement age.

              Second- you need to watch out for "net worth" vs "savings".
              "Savings" is CASH, EQUITIES, etc. Cash. MONEY. You can buy food with it.
              "Net Worth" is Cash, Equities, etc. PLUS your car, your property, and oh.. you know.. your HOUSE.

              The median Home value is $189,

            • Underemployed doesn't mean just part-time workers who want to go full-time. It also means people who have had to get a job considerably below their abilities.

              The number of stay-at-home spouses, students, and early retirees depends on the ability to get good jobs. Some early retirees saved a whole lot and were able to take a comfortable early retirement, and some lost their jobs, couldn't get anything comparable, and gave up. Some stay-at-home spouses planned to be that way, and some lost their jobs, o

      • Technology creates new fields, but it's the trickle down effect (mediated through the market or through government) allowing increased consumption which creates the jobs.

    • Just last week I had a strong disagreement with someone who said robots were not ready to effectively replace humans. He's spoken to industry people personally and they told him robots were not ready yet.

      And he ignored the numerous examples I linked him where robots are already replacing humans-- and damn fast too.

      This could be about half a million skilled employees who were making $5000 or less- yet robots are replacing them because the robots are less expensive. How can a 1st world employee hope to comp

    • Yes +1 to you. I was going to post the same kind of thing, so instead, I'll add to what you said. Automation frees us from doing the work ourselves, but its only now increasingly larger numbers of people are starting to see the end game. Like it of not, automation will eventually free everyone from work. We have been brought up to believe in a career even to the point where many sacrifice large parts of our lives for our career (often in the hope of making our lives better by earning more etc..). But that w
  • by Anonymous Coward

    so why is Foxconn always seen as some evil company doing Apple's bidding?

  • I was surprised in 2005 that so much was being done by human hands.

  • by Marginal Coward ( 3557951 ) on Sunday March 01, 2015 @01:18AM (#49157217)

    I bet these robots won't stop at replacing humans. Pretty soon, even the pick-and-place and wave-soldering machines will be out of a job.

  • Good (Score:2, Insightful)

    by penguinoid ( 724646 )

    It's about time that the average Chinese laborer had a high enough standard of living that robots are cheaper.

    • by itzly ( 3699663 )

      After you replace the laborer, what's going to happen to his standard of living ?

      • After you replace the laborer, what's going to happen to his standard of living ?

        You're assuming an oversimplified, ideal world, where if there were no robots manufacturing in China, everything would continue as it has been.

        That's not what's going to happen. As China has developed, wages have increased. They now have a burgeoning middle class. But the higher wages means their factories powered by manual labor are no longer cost-competitive with other third world countries. Already, a good chunk of m

  • Foxconn's major customers in the recent past have been Acer, Amazon, Apple, BlackBerry, Cisco, Dell, Google, Hewlett-Packard, Microsoft, Motorola Mobility, Nintendo, Nokia, Sony, Toshiba, Vizio. So why do people make Foxconn stories about Apple? It's pure ignorance and seems to come from a desire to attack the company which is recently most successful. It's really stupid.
    • Someone makes this complaint every time one of these stories happens. The answer is always the same: Apple posts the big profits, and everyone knows who Apple is. When you say that it seems to come from a desire to attack the company which is recently most successful, you're half right. That's a means to an end. Apple is most visible, so by attacking Apple, you're getting the most visibility. You could simply attack Foxconn directly — these days they actually sell stuff with their name on it — b

      • You act as though being fair and reasonable quit mattering if previous stories have been unfair and unreasonable, but that's not true. To pretend this is an Apple story is ultimately dishonest because of its implication. That's worth continuing to point out until people quit being dishonest.
  • by mtippett ( 110279 ) on Sunday March 01, 2015 @03:34AM (#49157459) Homepage

    I've been to Foxconn factories in Shenzen, and there are clearly opportunities for deeper automation. However, this will only be possible when the underlying hardware design has been designed for automation.

    At the PCB level, pick and place achieves amazing automation and performance with smaller than rice-grain size components used in modern electronics. That is a given.

    At the assembly level it isn't so easy to automate with a lot of the designs. There are flex cables, adhesive, torque sensitive screws that all rely on a human to be able to manipulate and then quickly respond to misalignment. To automate this, the design constraints placed on the Industrial Designs need to change. For low and mid-range products where form is not at the level of Apple integration, this will probably increase the automation. For the high end where every mm counts it's unlikely that there will be a high level of assembly automation.

    • by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Sunday March 01, 2015 @08:46AM (#49158007) Homepage

      At the assembly level it isn't so easy to automate with a lot of the designs. There are flex cables, adhesive, torque sensitive screws that all rely on a human to be able to manipulate and then quickly respond to misalignment. To automate this, the design constraints placed on the Industrial Designs need to change.

      I think you underestimate how far sensor technology has come and will go, here for example is an example of automated salmon processing [youtube.com]. Obviously there's a lot of natural variation, do we need to bioengineer a more robot-friendly salmon? No. They're measured out by a laser and intelligently cut. Head/tail/other cuts are dropped out to go on another processing line. Each cut is grabbed by a robot with robot vision and placed in pouches to be sealed. Skip to 3:12 if you just want to see that last part. Fillet-making machines are still in the research phase but there are examples [youtube.com] of that too using X-rays to scan and find the pin bones. If they can deal with all that, I'm sure they can apply the right torque to a screw.

      • Fish gutters are more impressive than simply doing portioning with straight cuts ... but these machines have years to earn their costs.

        For mobile phones you'd be designing new manipulators all the time, we don't have something as generic as the human hand which can work magic with relatively simple tools. We'll get there, but not in 3 years.

    • At the assembly level it isn't so easy to automate with a lot of the designs.

      The designs will simply change to make manufacturing easier, and the designs of the robots will change to meet them partway. It's not like this problem can't be "solved", it just hasn't been solved yet.

      Sooner or later, the whole phone will just be laminated into one brick which can only be taken apart with exotic chemicals so toxic that you need to keep them sealed away from all that is holy. And then, the terrorists^Wcorporations will have won... but regardless, there will be no need for human assembly, or

  • By calling them robots instead of machines, the article writers are playing on emotional strings of people, trying to provoke a larger response than otherwise. Imagine being horrified because the robot "Spinning Jenny" will steal all our lucrative spinning yarn jobs! Imagine the panic! The horror! We've been having this trend for a very long time in the west. Manufacturing moved to service industry and most people found new jobs. The reason not all people found jobs is because of wealth hoarding by the to
    • By calling them robots instead of machines, the article writers are playing on emotional strings of people, trying to provoke a larger response than otherwise.

      Robots are like other machines which have automated away jobs in obvious ways. They are also unlike them in other ways, which will enable them to seize more jobs. And there was significant social upheaval when we moved to manufacturing. It wasn't all for the better, although obviously it provided opportunities for more people. It's also come at a significant cost in sustainability.

  • It was always an assumption that when the automation became good enough and cheap enough compete with low-paid Chinese workers, then manufacturing would come back, it would be onshored, After all, removing labour costs removes China's compelling cost advantage. Doesn't it?

    Now this announcement is an indication that this may not happen. China has built up such a massive web of suppliers, often in close proximity, that it now has a compelling logistic advantage. Even if you wanted to build a completely aut
  • I've afraid to say it, but I think there needs to be some sort of revolution for us to actually get a utopia brought on my technical advancement. Think about it. In the future we are supposed to ba able to work a couple hours a day and have most of the day for leisure but who is going to start paying someone a current equivilant of a full day's wages for a couple hours work? Without the wages staying the same, extra leisure time is just unemployment and misery.

    Under the current system, we ARE seeing b
  • It is not the menial jobs that are threatened the most. The professions are also being over run by machines. EXAMPLE: With the internet one eighth grade history teacher could cover all the US schools for eighth grade history. How about one algebra teacher for the entire nation? How about wearable medical devices eliminating most lab testing and providing diagnostics sans physician? And when bots learn to code well programmers may become historic.
  • They'll have to install tamper proofing on electrical outlets everywhere to prevent the robots from committing robot suicide?

  • until the robots organize and start emailing Breitbart about plant conditions...
  • If the robot population is increasing, how are they going to use (and pay for) all the gadgets they are producing?

  • ... brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to assemble iPhones. Call that job satisfaction, 'cause I don't.

    I think that wave soldering machine just sighed.

  • We need to make full time 32 hours a week or less and make OT pay cost so much that very few people are pulling 60+ hour weeks.
    Also make the min level to be on no OT salary pay to be something like 80K-100K+ COL.

    • by j-beda ( 85386 )

      We need to make full time 32 hours a week or less and make OT pay cost so much that very few people are pulling 60+ hour weeks.
      Also make the min level to be on no OT salary pay to be something like 80K-100K+ COL.

      Rather than an immedate large jump, perhaps better would be to gently increase the number of statutory holidays and/or decrease number of hours that qualify for "full time" at some predictable rate over the long term. Every few years add another holiday, or decrease the work week by twenty minutes. If we had done this type of thing a few decades ago, things might not be getting so bad right now.

      The world's productivity per worker has increased many times since the 1920s when labor first got organized and th

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