Tesla Model S Catches Fire: Is This Tesla's 'Toyota' Moment? 388
cartechboy writes "A Tesla Model S was involved in an accident in Washington state on Tuesday, and the car's battery pack caught fire (with some of it caught on video). The cause of the accident is pretty clear, and Tesla issued a statement that the vehicle hit 'a large metallic object in the middle of the road.' Whether that collision immediately set off a fire in the Model S's battery pack isn't known, but a report from the Regional Fire Authority of Kent, Washington went into detail on the battery pack fire saying the car's lithium-ion battery was on fire when firefighters arrived, and spraying water on it had little effect. Firefighters switched to a dry chemical extinguisher and had to puncture numerous holes into the battery pack to extinguish it completely. Aside from the details of how the battery fire happened and was handled, the big question is what effect it will have on how people view Teslas in the near and middle-term. Is this Tesla's version of 2010's high profile Prius recall issue where pundits and critics took the opportunity to stir fears of the cars new technology?"
Big Oil is Dancing (Score:2, Insightful)
"That's TERRIBLE!" they laughed.
Re:Big Oil is Dancing (Score:5, Funny)
I told you so!
Signed,
Edison
Re:Big Oil is Dancing (Score:5, Informative)
More insightful than funny. Edison did electrocute elephants with electricity in public to "prove" that Tesla's AC current was more dangerous than his DC current. Tesla won that round - AC is easier to transmit over long distances because of the ease of using transformers to step it up or down.
Re:Big Oil is Dancing (Score:5, Informative)
AC is easier to transmit over long distances because of the ease of using transformers to step it up or down.
Actually, AC used to be more efficient. With modern technology, high voltage DC [wikipedia.org] is usually more efficient, especially for longer distances.
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high voltage DC
Somewhere in Australia, Angus Young just found a new album title.
Re:Big Oil is Dancing (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Big Oil is Dancing (Score:5, Funny)
Fuck oil and electricity. I want a *nuclear* powered engine. Now THAT will be an accident!
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And for the record, that was a joke. But I know this is /. and so, yes, I'm well aware that small nuclear reactors are actually pretty safe.
Re:Big Oil is Dancing (Score:5, Funny)
Fuck oil and electricity. I want a *nuclear* powered engine. Now THAT will be an accident!
I'm sure that in 2043, plutonium is available in every corner drugstore, but in 2013, it's a little hard to come by.
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Re:Big Oil is Dancing (Score:4, Informative)
You mean like the Nucleon? [wikipedia.org]
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schedule Jaws 19 to be a summer blockbuster.
Easily the toughest item on the list.
Re:Big Oil is Dancing (Score:5, Insightful)
vs gasoline cars (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:5, Funny)
If it's a documentary type, the risk is nonzero; but quite modest. If it's a moody psychological thriller, you should avoid flashbacks but are utterly safe. If it's an action shlock-slinger, colliding with a pothole, shopping cart, or just about anything else at more than a few miles an hour will produce a massive fireball. Be sure to practice jumping improbably to safety. In this last case, the safest way to navigate the roads is actually to either be chasing or chased by armed criminals/terrorists/secret agents at all times. While cars not involved in high-speed chases routinely explode at the slightest stimulus, being involved in a high speed chase improves performance and fuel economy by at least 50%, provides an immunity to most bodywork damage(except bullet holes through inessential pieces of glass, be sure that your insurance covers windshield replacements), and makes explosions virtually impossible.
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:5, Funny)
Judging by the username, I'm going to go with shrooms.
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:4, Insightful)
Every ~2 minutes, a fire department somewhere in the US responds to another call of a vehicle fire.
Statistically, on a per-car basis, they are safe... but there are so many vehicles that vehicle fires are actually quite common.
=Smidge=
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Yes cars catch on fire, what your stat doesn't shed any light on is how many of those fires are caused by the fuel system. There are countless other ways to get a car to catch fire.
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Even gasoline cars have complex electrical systems. They love to catch on fire thanks to the quality materials and craftsmanship found in the modern car.
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:4, Funny)
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Besides the uncertainty associated with only having a single data point, you cite the overall rate for problem in fuel systems, not the rate for problems in fuel systems which were hit by a piece of metal.
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:5, Insightful)
The name Tesla is fitting, since Nikolai Tesla faced a similar situation in life with Edison.
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Two can play the FUD game. The public might not consider that gasoline cars burn even worse when the gas tank is punctured by road "metal objects".
So Tesla should tell them directly. "Yes, one of our cars burned this year - and nobody was hurt. And in the same year, x thousand gasoline cars burned, with z number of fatalities . . ." They could make a commercial based on this.
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Er I think you meant to say liquid gasoline doesn't EXPLODE, because it burns quite readily.
No; gasoline in liquid form does not burn. Pour a fair amount into a coffee can, then throw a lit cigarette in. Or, spend 5 seconds on Wikipedia: [wikipedia.org]
Liquid gasoline itself is not actually burned, but its fumes ignite, causing the remaining liquid to evaporate and then burn.
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:4, Interesting)
Car companies and the oil industry obviously have an interest in spreading FUD to foster that effect
It may come as a shock to you, but Tesla is a car company. What's more, Tesla is an American car company. Let that sink in.
IMO, the coolest thing about Tesla is it help shake the foundations of those who will only buy an "American" car, and those who will never buy an "American" car. Less nationalism and reverse-nationalism would be good here - especially since brand has little correlation with where a car was actually manufactured.
You might also be surprised to know that there's barely an "Oil Industry" any more - no one big thinks of themselves that way. There are "energy companies" and "exploration companies" and so on, but everyone is trying to decouple their image from oil. And most energy companies are just as happy if you power your car with electricity that came from the natural gas they sell.
They've played dirty so far.
Every urban legend says so, so it must be true! Why, half their budget these days is for buying up patents for water-powered cars to make sure they never see the light of day! Most big established companies "play dirty" when it comes to branding and brand protection and trying to influence fashion in general - par for the course.
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Especially gasoline cars with fuel tanks in the nose of the car.
It looks like he ran over a fire hydrant which tore open the front battery pack.
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obviously gasoline cars never catch on fire
They obviously do, but you're forgetting that the fire brigade had to use a POWDER extinguisher to put this fire out!! OMG PANIC!!!!
Powder extinguisher... (Score:3)
I'm almost surprised that they didn't go to this first thing - water isn't good for gasoline fires either, though the sheer amount a fire engine can put out will often put out fires that water would not otherwise be recommended for.
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Gasoline vehicles burn ALL the TIME. You see it in every movie you watch nowadays.
And after they catch fire, they EXPLODE!
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Yes they do. I've seen many many videos of this on Liveleak. In fact one was a car parked by the curb. It was completely engulfed in flames and pedestrian decided to walk past it on the sidewalk, and right them KABOOM. Gas tanks DO explode, maybe not as easily as in a Michael Bay movie but Hollywood didn't make it up.
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:4, Funny)
... crash ... thunk ....
Boooooooooooooom!
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True, but how largely it's publicized It depends on if the domestic makes are in the middle of lobbying the government for a bailout at the moment because they are bankrupt, and if the burning car is a foreign marque.
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:5, Funny)
Funny story. On the way back from Thanksgiving during college, I was driving a couple classmates from my area with me. We hit a deer. I got out of the car to check the damage, and one of the girls in the car started running down the highway. In her adrenaline rush from the crash, she must have had a movie PTSD flashback and thought the car was going to explode.
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:5, Funny)
obviously gasoline cars never catch on fire
Gasoline vehicles burn ALL the TIME. You see it in every movie you watch nowadays.
Which is much safer than the gasoline vehicles in movies from the 70's and 80's. They had a nasty habit of going over cliffs and exploding in tremendous pyrotechnic displays(after coming to a complete stop). The fireball could easily reach 50 feet. Often times they transformed from an expensive Ferrari into a Pinto before going over the cliff.
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The best part is that they often explode while still airborne!
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:5, Insightful)
Ha! Yes, this is true. But they also burn in real life. I've seen it happen twice. The heat that comes off of a burning gasoline car is intense even from a couple of lanes away. It's nothing like what's shown in this video. I think the Tesla engineers can pat themselves on the back—it looks like the battery of this car was severely compromised, and still did not dump all its energy at once.
Re:vs gasoline cars (Score:4, Funny)
It does now.
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I don't know where he lives but I do know a lot of older developments here in the UK have combined sewers. From looking at wikipedia it seems the same is true of parts of the US. Separate sewers are much better from an environmental point of view because they don't wastefully put surface water through the sewage treatment system and are much less likely to end up releasing raw sewage during storms but are rather hard to retrofit.
Also even where the sewer and storm water systems are supposed to be separate p
Hitting stuff @ speed with your car can damage it! (Score:5, Insightful)
News at 11.
Gasoline burns too. I don't really see many people avoiding the purchase of gasoline-powered cars since, like FOREVER.
So? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course a gasoline-powered car has *never* caught on fire after a crash [/sarc]
No matter what mechanism we use for storing large amounts of energy in a small package, there is *always* the risk that it will be subject to an uncontrolled release if it suffers a physical insult.
Call me when a Tesla spontaneously explodes in flames... then it's time to get worried.
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Multiple gasoline cars have spontaneously exploded in fire. Some even after recalls to prevent that.
A single sample here: http://www.wreckedexotics.com/458/458_20101108_3.shtml [wreckedexotics.com]
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Yea, of course difference though seem to be while a Li-Ion pack may be a pain to put out, it won't be leaking a flammable chemical that can easily spread.
Betteridge's Law of Headlines (Score:5, Insightful)
No. A single incident without a fatality is rarely a cause for such panic unless this is hyped by those opposed to electric cars.
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No. A single incident without a fatality is rarely a cause for such panic unless this is hyped by those opposed to electric cars.
Good thing that never happens.
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Even using 100% coal it would be cleaner than a gasoline powered car. You don't have the same scrubbing equipment in your exhaust. Lithium is not toxic and it is easy to recycle.
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I am not aware of any government anywhere that forces people to buy an electric car instead of gasoline powered.
As dirty as a coal plant is, it is cleaner than a gasoline powered engine due to it's efficiency and pollution controls.
I doubt its a major issue (Score:2)
This is about the same as a large metal object ripping open your fuel tank and having the gasoline igniting save it's far more likely the fuel fire will consume the entire car quickly but on the reverse side it's probably easier to put out. The only real solution would be to not use lithium as a battery component which isn't possible at this time.
Re:I doubt its a major issue (Score:4, Insightful)
This is about the same as a large metal object ripping open your fuel tank and having the gasoline igniting save it's far more likely the fuel fire will consume the entire car quickly but on the reverse side it's probably easier to put out. The only real solution would be to not use lithium as a battery component which isn't possible at this time.
It's a thing to note, in the sense that fire departments/first responder types need to behave differently around a light metal fire than they do around a hydrocarbon fire (this is one of the reasons why hazardous materials storage/reporting regulations have involved the local fire department for decades in many locations: if Warehouse B catches fire, will spraying it with water stop the fire, or cause the place to explode?); but we aren't talking markedly different overall amounts of stored energy here. Even if Teslas were magically impossible to extinguish, the 'stand at a safe distance and watch' strategy works.
Re:I doubt its a major issue (Score:5, Informative)
Firefighters get constant updates on all sorts of technologies. Two months ago, the monthly VFD meeting was all about LiOn batteries - from camcorders to cars. There was a slick video with all sorts of cool GoPro shots. Next month it's carbon composite airplanes like the 787. Those are supposed to be quite entertaining.
You will notice, in the brief FA video, the firefighter standing there and looking at the scene. They're not rushing around with hoses. It looks like they understand what they're dealing with and acting accordingly.
And some of us remember the magnesium transmission cases in Volkswagen bugs. Now, those were a PITA to extinguish. The world is full of all sorts of potentially dangerous things, emergency personnel get frequent instruction on how to safely deal with them.
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Energy storage is always dangerous. This would have been far, far more dangerous with gasoline.
unexplained fires are a matter for the courts (Score:4, Funny)
With an Canyonero
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Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
smells like a steak and seats thirty-five..
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Well, it goes real slow with the hammer down,
It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown!
Canyonero! (Yah!) Canyonero!
[Krusty:] Hey Hey
The Federal Highway comission has ruled the
Canyonero unsafe for highway or city driving.
Canyonero!
12 yards long, 2 lanes wide,
65 tons of American Pride!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Top of the line in utility sports,
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts!
Canyonero!
heh. (Score:5, Funny)
Tesla Model S Catches Fire: Is This Tesla's 'Toyota' Moment?
Only when you consider Toyota's slogan is "Driving excitement". I can think of nothing more exciting than OH GOD OH GOD WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.
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Tesla Model S Catches Fire: Is This Tesla's 'Toyota' Moment?
Only when you consider Toyota's slogan is "Driving excitement". I can think of nothing more exciting than OH GOD OH GOD WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.
That was pretty much the excitement of driving a Pontiac Firefly close to the speed limit. (Downhill with a tailwind...)
Re:heh. (Score:4, Funny)
OH GOD OH GOD WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE.
I am a Nissan Leaf on the wind, watch how I soar.
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Water intensified the effect? Duh (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course water intensified the effect... it's an electrical fire!
Anyways... I didn't see anything in the article about it. Did the battery actually explode? If not, then there's an argument for increased safety over gasoline, isn't it?
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There is no reason to assume the battery exploded. In fact it would be very hard to make it do that while with gasoline that is relatively easy and the fire is going to spread fast to the while car. Here, the fire seems to be entirely restricted to the motor compartment, no flames in the passenger area at all.
Also, it is not an electrical fire, but a lithium fire. You cannot put those out, you just put sand on it and wait. Water is at worst going to cause a steam explosion. These firefighters do not know th
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Except that in TF video, they're just staring at the fire, not putting water on it. They have hoses out but they always do. Besides, there are things OTHER than lithium in the car.
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Incorrect, unless you powder the lithium. Otherwise you just make a slightly bigger fire. If you use enough water you can actually put out lithium by cooling it so much. Remember the fire triangle.
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Since they had to poke holes in the pack to enable them to get the retardant into it; it sounds like it was intact, and was just burning; which you would think a professional Fire Dept would know not to mix Li-Ion battery fires and water.
Re:Water intensified the effect? Duh (Score:5, Insightful)
Reading the article, it appears that they did spray water on it first - makes sense, it's not like it's all that easy to ID a burning car. Then they noticed odd behavior, the fire got worse - OK, we know how to deal with that - stop the water, grab the dry chemical extinguisher.
Then they had to puzzle through how to put the fire out completely given they were out in the middle of the road. Seems like they did a pretty good job. A few motorists were inconvenienced, no one was hurt. People learned things. Probably will be the talk of the department for weeks.
I'll bet it was the highlight of their day (the FD folks, perhaps the owner, but in a different sense).
Re:Water intensified the effect? Duh (Score:5, Informative)
Li-ion batteries contain no pure lithium, Li-ion doesn't react with water. Only reasons not to use water is because of potential voltages. The water could either conduct back to fire fighters, or as it gets contaminated cause more shorting internal and external to the battery.
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My car will never catch fire (Score:4, Funny)
I am going to stick with my gasoline fuelled car. It will never catch fire
The hazards of driving in Kent (Score:2)
Not only is there a lot of rain, it's Kent. Coulda been Bellevue, where people in Bentleys would drive by snickering.
No. (Score:5, Insightful)
Tesla has been very brilliant thus far in their product strategy.
They have made expensive, high end products that are tailored to affluent enthusiasts. They have been working their way down from "least practical" to "most practical".
Enthusiasts and early adopters are much more willing to put up with teething problems in new technologies.
These are not disposable cars that you will see filled with McDonalds wrappers.
So the typical tesla customer isn't stupid white trash looking to cash in on a lawsuit with the help of an ambulance chasing lawyer (yet).
Furthermore, consider the competition: If you believe the party line, A Mercedes Benz can randomly eject its drivetrain and burn itself to a crisp, killing the occupants.
Everyone (including the test data and real-world data) agrees that MB makes exceptionally survivable vehicles. So freak things may happen.
What we saw in this case was that the Tesla hit something, nobody was hurt, the vehicle didn't lose control, and after the driver safely stopped and exited the car, the firefighters had to deal with a slightly new type of fire situation then they are used to.
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Furthermore, consider the competition: If you believe the party line, A Mercedes Benz can randomly eject its drivetrain and burn itself to a crisp, killing the occupants.
Good to know the drivetrain is safe. I mean, if you're gonna have an accident, eject the most valuable parts, right?
And who says it was random? Occupants efficiently terminated. Drivetrain available for re-use.
well... (Score:2)
Most Pontiac Fieros caught fire on the SIDE of the road without an accidents.
Vehicles catch on fire! Wow!
But Tesla is just like everyone else in the auto industry, and if there is something to make safer they should do it.
Looks much less dangerous than a gasoline fire (Score:5, Interesting)
This is restricted to the motor area. A gasoline fire engulfs the whole car and can kill everybody pretty fast. Looks like there would be plenty of time to get people out safely from a Tesla in comparison.
Face it: There is no really safe way of energy storage. But a well-made lithium battery is orders of magnitude more desirable than highly volatile and very toxic gasoline.
Re:Looks much less dangerous than a gasoline fire (Score:4, Funny)
Thoughts and Insights... (Score:5, Interesting)
First, this was a direct puncture by a piece of large metal debris. Not a design failure. The metal object likely caused a short and the resultant fire.
Second, from a number of articles and reports, Tesla's safety designs worked as planned. Numerous articles noted that the fire was contained in the front section of the vehicle where the impact occurred, and did not shift into the passenger compartment. This = GOOD!!!!
The firefighters pouring of water on a chemical fire likely exasperated the situation.
What Tesla should lean from this...
a) evaluate design to see if the front underguard can be further strengthened for greater resistance to impact and puncture with minimal affect on price and performance.
b) recognize the benefit of better trained fire departments, sell off some those stocks to found a non-profit with an endowment to help train nationally all fire departments in the handling of electric drive vehicle systems. Namely to utilize chemical extinguishers rather than water.
c) perhaps evaluate whether a small extinguishing system could be incorporated into the design. (BONUS POINTS)
a)
Careful (Score:2)
c) perhaps evaluate whether a small extinguishing system could be incorporated into the design. (BONUS POINTS)
Have to be careful with things like that. It would be VERY easy for competitors to spin that as "Tesla's are so dangerous they need a fire extinguishing system". Stupid argument under the light of day but stupid people and lawmakers (but I repeat myself) are influenced by stupid arguments.
Re:Careful (Score:5, Interesting)
Or Tesla spins it as "We're incorporating a built-in fire-suppression system, the same as all race cars have had for the last 20 years or so. Why our competitors haven't done so by now,... you'll have to ask them, they're the ones who've been fielding the racing teams using this technology.".
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It sounds like a perfectly reasonable eggcorn [wikipedia.org] on the other hand.
sure glad lithium batteries not in airplanes (Score:2)
A large metallic object (Score:2, Funny)
There are lots of large metallic objects in the middle of the road. They're called CARS!
Of course not. (Score:5, Insightful)
The driver hit something in the road; the vehicle detected the damage, realized it was going to catch on fire, and politely asked the driver to pull over and exit the vehicle. Once the driver had exited, the battery compartment started merrily burning, but the design kept the fire contained within the front compartment. At no point did the fire enter the passenger compartment, which would have been perfectly safe for the driver. Frankly, I can only dream of owning such a safe vehicle.
Headline Question Rule (Score:2)
As usual, the answer to the question posed in the headline is, "No."
If this turns out to happen every time they take a bang, it may be their "Pinto Moment." That doesn't seem to happening though.
Meta-Pundits (Score:5, Funny)
Is this Tesla's version of 2010's high profile Prius recall issue where pundits and critics took the opportunity to stir fears of the cars new technology?
One thing is clear: Meta-pundits will use this opportunity to stir fears about what pundits will do.
And By Extension (Score:3)
I completely agree with the other posters, gasoline cars never catch fire and burn their occupants to death. I'm shocked, shocked that an electric car would burn. Obviously it's a death trap.
By extension, I'm also horrified by those who suggest we revive zeppelins to manage flight. Don't they know hydrogen burns? Also, jumbo jets never burn. Aviation fuel, I've read, is safe to drink and could never harm anyone. 13 people died awful agonizing deaths on the Hindenburg. Think of the humanity! What's that? 137 people died in a PanAm crash... *yawn* what's on Must-See TV tonight?
End of the electric vehicle (Score:2)
Clearly, having a single instance of an electric vehicle catching fire after an accident is proof that the whole idea of electric vehicles is faulty.
Because cars with internal combustion engines have never, ever caught fire.
Battery pack not under passenger compartment? (Score:2)
Looks to me like the fire is contained to the "engine" compartment AND the driver/passengers were able to get out without being engulfed in flames. That's pretty damn good engineering. Also consider Toyota Prius batteries appear to be under the passenger [youtube.com] compartment.
"little effect" (Score:3)
Well, I'd call that a very good thing. I would have expected "spraying water on a lithium fire" to have had a spectacular effect. Kudos to Tesla for managing to protect the firefighters from blowing themselves up!
Putting it out (Score:3)
Although not easily, gasoline cars will catch fire. It's just a product of hauling so much concentrated energy around.
The big issue is how hard it was for the fire crew to put it out. They can just douse a gasoline-fueled car, and it's out. But they shouldn't have to pierce the battery pack to put out a Tesla.
Maybe if they put temperature-sensitive dry chemical packs in the battery pack. If it gets too hot (as in the batteries are burning), the packs burst, forcing the chemical everywhere.
Re:Just gonna make it worse (Score:5, Informative)
Tesla's battery packs are large multiple-battery units, with a crunchy plastic shell. If the fire is on the wiring in the shell, the proper way to extinguish it is to puncture the shell and apply a chemical extinguisher. That seems to be exactly what they did.
No he does not (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems to me that Elon Musk may have some egg on his face since he so boldly offered to help out Boeing redesign their battery system on the 787 not to long ago
There is a huge difference between catching fire due to (apparently) catastrophic damage from flying debris and catching fire due under expected use conditions. So the answer is no, he does not have any egg on his face.
It seems that Tesla's Li-ion batteries are just as likely to catch on fire!
Any Li-ion battery can become flammable under the right conditions.
No omlette here (Score:2)
I don't recall Lee Iacocca or Henry Ford ever taking the blame for a traffic accident a flaw in the car wasn't responsible for.
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admittedly it took a head-on collision to do that while the Boeing aircraft was just sitting there, but it seems that the Tesla has the same Achilles heal!
Heel. And, no.
Look, I dislike Elon Musk more than the next guy (this is Slashdot, so the next guy is probably a fanboi sycophant), but yeah, no. Metal debris impacting an absurdly powerful battery is not the same as, "plane caught on fire again for no reason, cap'n, lol".
Re:Does Musk has egg on his face now? (Score:5, Insightful)
Boeing 787: Multiple fires out of 83 deployed vehicles. All fires happened without collision, one happened while vehicle was parked.
Tesla Model S: One fire out of ~14,000 deployed vehicles. The fire happened due to a collision.
Yeah, I think Tesla's doing pretty well relative to Boeing here...
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Tesla has the same Achilles heal!
wow, a self-repairing battery
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If the theory was linear, there'd be no auto stock market at all, would there?
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No, you just are ill informed.
educate yourself:
http://www.teslamotors.com/firstresponders [teslamotors.com]
Look at the firefighting section and you will find that large amount of water will cool the battery and stop the fire. Remember the fire triangle.
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