Omnidirectional Treadmill: The Ultimate FPS Input Device? 292
MojoKid writes "The concept of gaming accessories may have just been taken to a whole new level. A company called Virtuix is developing the Omni, which is essentially a multidirectional treadmill that its creators call 'a natural motion interface for virtual reality applications.' The company posted a video showing someone playing Team Fortress 2 and using the Omni along with the Oculus Rift virtual reality headset. You can see in the video how much running and movement this fellow performs. With something like the Omni in your living room, you'd likely get into pretty good shape in no time. Instead of Doritos and Mountain Dew, folks might have to start slamming back Power Bars and Gatorade for all night gaming sessions."
Dream on. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dream on. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would be far more inclined to have a game on this than to organise paint ball.
Paint ball involves pre-planning, showering, dressing, leaving the house and worst of all, IRL friends.
This I can pick up any time.
Plus, looks like a lot more fun than going to the gym.
Re:Dream on. (Score:4, Funny)
Pretty sure this would have to involve showering as well. Also, I, at least, prefer IRL friends to screaming 12 year olds.
Re:Dream on. (Score:5, Funny)
If the guy hates showering, dressing and leaving the house, chances are he likes screaming 12 year olds.
Re:Dream on. (Score:5, Funny)
If the guy hates showering, dressing and leaving the house, chances are he likes screaming 12 year olds.
I like screaming 12 year olds.
But I have to leave the house to get them :(
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Well, it does not necessarily involve showering. But please inform me beforehand if you want to show off yours to me. :)
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I'm not a huge fan of paintball, though admittedly the last time I played was when I still wore glasses. Which would then fog up along with the goggles making visibility practically impossible. I've had eye surgery since then so that fixes THAT issue, but now I have bad knees so squatting-and-hiding for long periods would no longer be pleasant.
So with paintball you have the fog-issue, running through the woods (depending on the course / company / etc), worrying about ticks (here in NJ), the pellets can hu
Re:Dream on. (Score:5, Funny)
I always say paintball is like playing an FPS where your character sucks and the force feedback is turned up too high, but the graphics and controls are AMAZING!
Re:Dream on. (Score:4, Interesting)
So with paintball you have the fog-issue, running through the woods (depending on the course / company / etc), worrying about ticks (here in NJ), the pellets can hurt when you get hit, etc. Sure, some people love. But I can't fault anyone for not liking it due to the reasons I listed (and there are probably others).
The costs too. Buy a game once and play it hundreds of times vs going to the paintball place and buy supplies and rent space every time. It's even more expensive if you have to rent equipment.
They're trying to fix this problem with DRM.
Re:Dream on. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dream on. (Score:4, Interesting)
Getting shot and the possibility of getting hurt are on the plus side. That's what makes things not-boring.
This is one of the things I find puzzling about people who enjoy sport and exercise. The active pursuit of pain and discomfort. Paintball: you're likely to get a bruising, painful projectile whack you. Many team sports: an obligation to spend hours in the cold and wet. Cyclists actively prefer hilly routes. And so on.
Don't get me wrong, I exercise because it's not pleasant finding that going upstairs or running for a bus almost kills you. But enjoying the discomfort? I'll never get it.
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Re:Dream on. (Score:5, Interesting)
Pick up a baby out of his crib, typical day. Pick up a baby out of a a burning airplane, hero. It isn't so much the action, but what was overcome to do the action. Stength of will, perseverance, mind over body, face of adversity etc etc etc. From there they glean satisfaction, glory, a sense of accomplishment: I beat that.
That or they are all just loopy masochists. Either or
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As a cyclist, the reason we like hills.. is while going uphill sucks.. going downhill is alot more fun :) I have done a number of flat centuries (Specifically the Seagull Century), its essentially 100 miles of flat constant peddling (and 50 miles of it always against the damn 40 mph wind gusts). At least with hills, you get the opportunity to rest a little on the downhills.
So yes, hills are better then flat surfaces.. that said.. at least with some mtb trails (I ride road and mountain), you can take a ski
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The active pursuit of risk of pain and discomfort.
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Check out the movie Every Which Way but Loose; it was somewhat about this. When you are actively in danger your body starts pumping chemicals (eg: adreneline) which some people find rather enjoyable. Even moreso when you get injured a bit.
I play a lot of soccer as a defender, and frankly don't really feel like I'm in the game properly until I've taken a good hit. I had a big forward cheap-shot me to the ground early in the game once when he saw the ref wasn't looking, and I got up laughing and thanking hi
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I'm glad you said "some people" because I'm pretty certain the endorphin/adrenaline thing is highly variable depending on the individual. I've done a fair amount of running (it seems to be the cheapest form of exercise, with the least travel/preparation/cleanup overhead) and never knowingly experienced an endorphin rush.
Thanking someone for battering you seems utterly alien; one step away from self-harm. And although you get an endorphin rush from the initial impact, generally a painful bruise outlasts it.
S
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Dream on. (Score:4, Informative)
It has nothing to do with the uncanny valley. The uncanny value is a non-proven theory about how we perceive humanoids.
What we are talking about here is regular motion sickness. We use a lot of senses to keep track of ourself with regards to the environment. When does thing no longer add up there is a risk of "feeling pukey".
Dumbing down the graphics is not going to help at all, your eyes will still tell you that you move forward when your sense of balance says that you are not. (And jumping will give conflicting inputs. Focal depth will not correlate with distance and so on.)
Some people even get this kind of sickness from 3D-movies.
Dizziness the first couple of times you use it is expected but it should wear off after a couple of times when your brain gets used to it. Otherwise basic motion sickness pills might help.
Re:Dream on. (Score:5, Interesting)
I've seen one 3D movie (The hobbit in HFR), and I had to actively work to keep motion sickness and headaches at bay. I like looking at all the detail in the background, and that simply was not do-able in 3D. Also the scene where the fall down the mine-shaft i basically shut my eyes during since I couldn't keep up with the changing focal point.
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Way to miss the point. "Dumbing down" the graphics is irrelevant. You could be staring at virtual walls covered with checkerboard texture -- stuff that could be rendered in real time decades ago. The problem is that what you see must match what your own inertial/balance system is otherwise measuring (stuff drom your inner ear and proprioception). Doing that part accurately is hard -- this has nothing to do with quality of the graphics, but with quality of the inertial sensors mounted on the head display, an
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I have this problem.. I discovered it on a trip to Universal Studios in Orlando. The regular coasters are fine, but the 3d type sit in a box that moves slowly in front of various monster projector screens made me absolutely want to puke my guts out. Even taking motion sickness meds did not really help.
The worst offender is the Harry potter ride, which puts you on a flying broom, the video project fast moving motion, including a nose dive sequence where you appear to fly straight down for a few hundred fee
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We all have our hobbies, but once my friends and I all realized how much money we were spending, it wasn't so fun anymore. Also, this activity lets assholes actually shoot at you. There was nothing worse than going to a big game (one of the 24hr scenario ones) and realizing you're surrounded by assholes and your own team has no interests in completing the objectives,
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I'd say it sounds like you need to find better people to play with, at a place where they enforce the rules, and even kick people who arent playing for the objective, and just trying to be aholes. And don't rent equipment and buy supplies (reloads) at the paintball range. Hhave to assume you're doing one or both cause walmart and the interwebs have that stuff cheeeeap.
Re:Dream on. (Score:5, Insightful)
Paintball is expensive. Personally, if I want exercise, I go for a bike ride. But if I wanted exercise *AND* shooting (and also the feeling of killing people rather than spraying brightly-colored dyes on their clothes), I'd absolutely LOVE one of these treadmills.
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Especially if it came with an octagon to go around it that has airbags on each side at 3 levels so wherever you get shot from that's where you're gettin' an airbag from motherfucker!
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Paintball is expensive..
and i'm sure this kind of tech is just something that will be given away ;)
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Paintball has high reoccurring costs. This unit is likely to be sold as a one time purchase.
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I'm with you on this. There is very little overlap for what is called the "hardcore" market and what is called the "casual" market . The former isn't going to transform into the latter and play Black Ops 2 with an omnidirectional treadmill, and not to mention this will significantly reduce the amount of time per person being invested into these games because you're simply going to be worn the hell out after a match or two. This is not what the developers want.
From a practical angle, I don't want to run a
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Re:Dream on. (Score:4, Insightful)
playing on one of these things will cripple you compared to a mouse + keyboard or even a controller
And it can't happen soon enough. Specifically for us network engineers, getting rid of Superman will solve a LOT of problems. An avatar that can run at 70MPH forever, stop in an instant, and turn 180 degrees in a millisecond causes all KINDS of grief while trying to deal with 70ms of internet ping time. When the motion of avatars are tied to physical bodies, with real physical limitations, and the mouse+keyboard and controller crowd are then forced down to real world behavior, a whole lot of internet latency can be concealed.
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You'd certainly want to have servers/rooms set up only for folks using this setup to make it fair, yes. That doesn't strike me as infeasible.
FYI (Score:5, Insightful)
Mountain Dew and Doritos are not substantially different, health-wise, from Gatorade and PowerBars.
Re:FYI (Score:4, Informative)
Just the rough Numbers:
Gatorade and Mountain Dew only differ in sugar concentration. The difference in salt is relatively unimportant. There's a significant difference between powerbars and Doritos. #1 Doritos are much cheaper, #2 powerbars have nutritive value, while Doritoes are edible product and not really food.
If you ate as much by weight in power bars as people typically do in doritoes, you will be both overfed, and have a pretty bad time on the toilet.
Re:FYI (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference in salt is relatively unimportant.
The difference in salt is of primary importance since the purpose of Gatorade is to provide those salts that are lost during the natural process of perspiration.
You're also ignoring the caffeine present in the Mountain Dew and not in the Gatorade.
Gatorade is far from the healthiest choice of beverages to be swilling down in large amounts, however it is substantially different nutritionally than Mountain Dew, and your comparison is lacking in my opinion.
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I think the main problem is that I'm not a dieticianI always stick ingredients in three categories. For instance 1. Thermodynamic gradient powered metabolism. 2 membranes (separation from the environment of some kind). And 3 inheritance (dna and genetics). These are all features necessary to qualify as living.
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The difference in salt is of primary importance since the purpose of Gatorade is to provide those salts that are lost during the natural process of perspiration.
They may market it that way, but it's not really true. Your body has more than enough salt stored in it to maintain levels over any reasonable period of physical exertion (100 mile races not withstanding) so long as you don't get dehydrated (unless you're on some kind of unusual ultra-low sodium diet when the Gatorade is a major portion of your total salt intake for a long period of time).
Re:FYI (Score:4, Interesting)
Gatorade is not really a good option for an active person. It is sickly sweet, and sometimes makes you even more thirsty. As a cyclist who does 100 mile rides, I tend to prefer things like NUUN, which are tablets you mix with water, have only a slight taste to them.
If I am in a crappy scenario where my only option is gatorade, I will water it down, 50/50 water/gatorade to cut down on the taste.
Also, Unflavored Eduralytes taste like ass (I had to throw that in there.. even mixes with 50/50 water/gatorade mix.. you end up with Lemon Lime tasking ass)...
Vomiting children (Score:3)
The difference in salt is relatively unimportant.
Unless you really are dehydrated, which is why Gatorade marketing is aimed at "re-hydrating" people who don't know when it's time to sit down and drink some tap water. Doctors were using similar "salt" drinks (in powdered form) to prevent/treat dehydration long before someone put it in a fancy bottle.
For those who may not know. The first sign of dehydration is muscle aches (usually the legs), people who are running around expect muscle aches in the legs so may miss the warning signs. Sick kids are at a m
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I'm not a doctor either, but I'm given to understand that a quarter teaspoon of table salt stirred into a glass of normal orange squash is equivalent to branded isotonic drinks and rehydration sachets.
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Eat a banana :)
Re:FYI - Comparisons... (Score:3)
A comparison follows. Power Bar vs a Banana.
240 kcal (30 from fat) --- A banana has 200. 6.2 calories from fat.
3g fat (1g saturated fat) --- A banana has 1gram of total fat, Negligible saturated fat.
200mg sodium --- A banana has 2mg
45g carbs (3g from fiber, 25g from sugar) --- A banana has 51, 28 from sugars, 6 from fiber, 12 from starch
8g protein --- A banana has 2.5g
70%dv Vitamin C --- A banana has 33
25%dv Calcium Iron and B6 --- A banana has 1% Calcium, 3%Iron, and 41% B6
15%dv Thiamin --- A banana has
Re:FYI (Score:5, Funny)
As long as they contain the four major food groups (fat, sugar, salt, caffeine) I'm happy.
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Ready Player One (Score:4, Interesting)
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It's been a long time since I've seen it - came out in 1994, so I'm guessing about that long - but I'm pretty sure they used an omnidirectional treadmill in the movie Disclosure, not that most people remember the VR elements from the movie. Pretty sure Michael Crichton described them in the book, too.
Clever... (Score:5, Funny)
You almost had me, but this looks like it could be dangerously close to exercise. Pass.
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You almost had me, but this looks like it could be dangerously close to exercise. Pass.
This is why I prefer RTS over FPS: no chance for someone to actually come with a Zerg Brood or Dwarf forges simulators.
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Zerg Brood? Easy to simulate, get in on a winter sale at one of the outlet stores, it's a pretty apt emulation.
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Star Trek Holodeck - one more item toward it (Score:4, Informative)
This, if any of you remember, is one of the key items of the Star Trek holodeck. The Technical manual showed users on an omnidirectional treadmill (probably using forcefields rather than an actual treadmill), which the holodeck routed to wherever there was space if there were more than one user and they were in different locations of the program.
1994 Disclosure (Score:2)
Isn't this somewhat reminiscent of part of the VR hardware shown in the 1994 film?
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There were units very much like this in arcades in the 90s.
But the headsets were big and heady. The graphics were blocky and laggy. So the craze died back for a while, until the technology caught up.
Oculus Rift seems to have the graphics more or less cracked. This input device is at least a step in the right direction.
In the 90s we'd pay £5 for a few minutes playing something like this. I'd pay £20 today for half an hour playing TF2 in this thing.
Twitch Shooters (Score:2)
What about stairs and ramps? (Score:5, Interesting)
Ready Player One (Score:2)
they may have cracked it. (Score:3)
anchored inplace while climbing a slippery slope, sounds like most gamers. I hope it works, but the price will doom it to niche markets.
Now how to fool you inner accelerometer? (Score:5, Insightful)
Very cool, but your inner ear is going to break the illusion - just as your retinal muscles are going to remind you that it isn't quite depth you're seeing with that stereoscopic headset.
Progress of technology - new ways of getting motion sickness!
Re:Now how to fool you inner accelerometer? (Score:4, Funny)
Very cool, but your inner ear is going to break the illusion - just as your retinal muscles are going to remind you that it isn't quite depth you're seeing with that stereoscopic headset.
Progress of technology - new ways of getting motion sickness!
I have it on good authority that the humans won't get motion sickness if they're exposed only to the simulated environment starting at birth...
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Very cool, but your inner ear is going to break the illusion
Palmer (the guy behind Oculus Rift) hinted at working on a solution to this problem on the MTBS forums just before the Oculus Rift Kickstarter. Apparently you can fool these sensors with some magnetic fields. The concept is nowhere near commercialization yet, of course.
Not really a treadmill (Score:5, Informative)
Real omnidirectional treadmills [wikipedia.org] exist, first started as a DoD project. You can walk naturally on them, as demonstrated here [youtube.com] and here [youtube.com].
It's still debatable which method is superior or more practical.
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I think the point of TFA is not that Virtuix invented something radical, it's that they're planning on commercializing something that previously only existed in DoD facilities and research labs. That is great. Whether it gains any traction (pun intended) is another story.
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This is a good reveal of how a 2D treadmill can work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rtX2pWRh6w [youtube.com]
Aiming with your head (Score:5, Informative)
The problem is that the guy is carrying a 'gun' but you're still aiming with your head (i.e. the Oculus).
This has been done better before: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQR49JGySTM [youtube.com]
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There are several options at your disposal and you can choose how you want to aim.
Power Bars and Gatorade are Crap (Score:2)
FWIW Power Bars and Gatorade are only marginally better for you than Doritos and Mountain Dew. Both are loaded with over-processed crap. It's reasonable to say that the former are actually worse because no one is going to think eating doritos and dew is healthy.
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Powerbars actually do have some nutritive value, with reasonable vitamin content. You wouldn't be able to survive on them alone though. They're mostly fat and sugar, but also have good fiber. They're closer to food than Doritos by a longshot, but they're still not really food, just nutritive product.
duck and roll! (Score:2)
going to hurt when you feel that ducking or rolling is the way to get out of trouble in the game! :-)
GOD DAMN NOOBTUBE! (Score:2)
Next generation parents (Score:5, Funny)
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Missing the point of what a controller is (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps one day we'll have Star Trek style holodecks. And that will be great. Until the point - roughly 10 minutes after the first trial - when people realise that if they're really bad at running around doing atheletic stuff in real life, they're also going to be really bad at it on a holodeck like that.
I think controllers which try to make games more immersive by having them mimic real life activities are (with a few exceptions I'll touch on later) missing the point.
That isn't to say that games shouldn't try to be immersive and that controllers don't have a role to play in immersion. However, given that in most games, the player is doing things he wouldn't be able to do in real life, simply trying to translate real-life controls into the game isn't going to work. In most genres, the best thing the controls can do is let the player forget that they are there at all. They need to be the most efficient means possible of translating the player's will into the behaviour of his on-screen avatar.
Every time a player dies (or otherwise fails, depending on genre) in game due to control issues, the immersion is broken. I can think of some really awful examples here, going back decades. Remember Ultima VIII, as it was at launch? Those jumps across the moving platforms, where a mis-step meant death? Remember how you could see precisely what you needed to do to get across, but how the atrocious point and click control inputs made each and every jump an exercise in trial, error and sheer luck? And remember how much it broke the immersion every time you failed - reminded you that you weren't the Avatar exploring a strange land, but a player wrestling with a cumbersome interface and control system? That one was bad enough that they eventually patched it (turning it from "atrocious" to "just about tolerable").
Or more recently, take the Super Mario Galaxy games. I enjoyed both of these immensely - until the point at which it became necessary to use the spin-jump to make certain jumps. See, "spin jump" was mapped to "waggle the Wii-mote". And "waggle" is not, on a Wii-mote, a precise input. There's actually a good bit of variation in just how much and how hard you need to waggle before the game will accept that, yes, you have waggled (and I can't believe I've just typed that sentence). So all of a sudden you have a precision platformer which is dependant upon a non-precision input. And even though it's only for one single input, each time you rack up an unnecessary death due to that input going wrong, the immersion is broken.
Or sometimes a game uses a "normal" input device, but because the game adapts itself to that device badly, it still ends up feeling broken. Resident Evil 6 is a case in point here. I've played this on the 360 and the PC and found the 360 version effectively unplayable, due to control issues. I don't normally object to playing shooters on a console controller (though I'd prefer mouse and keyboard), but the shooters in question need to make concessions to the fact that they're being played on a device less suited to precise aim. Actually, many console shooters these days do that well; snap-to aim, relatively generous hitboxes and slow-moving enemies may not always make for the most exciting game mechanics, but they do take a lot of the pain out of playing a shooter on a console controller. Resident Evil 6 makes no such concessions; in a game where only headshots do appreciable damage to enemies, aiming at these tiny, fast bobbing targets on a console controller is nigh impossible and the abiding impression I took away from my 360 version was that my in-game character actually had worse accuracy with a gun than I myself would in real life (which is saying something). After that, playing with mouse and keyboard on the PC was a complete revelation - while the game itself still has flaws, it was an order of magnitude better than the console version. By contrast, the recent Tomb Raider reboot makes such good concessions to aiming on a controller that I played it on PC using a 360 control
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Unable, or impossible. You see, while I might be able to shoot people in real life, I choose not to. A game like paintball solves this by making sure you can't actually hurt someone (provided bla bla). A computer simulation does the same.
Some of the solutions that you mention that work for FPSs on consoles would also work for realistic controls like this. If you're bad at something in real life (because you can't jump
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However, given that in most games, the player is doing things he wouldn't be able to do in real life, simply trying to translate real-life controls into the game isn't going to work.
I see that as a plus. I'm sick of FPS multiplayer games where the other players are hopping around like damn rabbits and doing headshots in mid jump. Crap like that is why I no longer play most online multiplayer games.
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Sensitivity settings? (Score:2)
Power Bars and Gatorade (Score:2)
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even if they dont eat that trash theyre still gonna be fat. It may be better than sitting in a chair for hours, but this thing hardly counts as exercise.
Wake me when input gets better (Score:2)
Seriously, it's all nice and fine, but please inform me once such input actually gives you better control of your character than keyboard&mouse.
I'm pretty certain, though, that I'll be asleep for a long, long time, mostly because keyboard&mouse actually gives you better control than your body. And please don't tell me it's a matter of exercise. Unless the game is specifically written for this kind of input, k&m will triumph. Simply because the game was written for THAT kind of input.
FPS games do
I predict fewer sales than Duke Nukem Forever (Score:2)
Program Complete (Score:2)
Hmmmmmmmm. (Score:3)
Camping (Score:2)
This is a triumph? (Score:2)
At least, until you try to play Portal while using it.
Talk about mixed vestibular cues!
Amusing, but how does it *work*? (Score:2)
n/t
We've had truly immersive FPSes. (Score:3)
Paintball and laser tag for the non-lethal.
An omni-directional treadmill with a good VR headset with decent resolution is probably more expensive than the equipment for either paintball or laser tag, both of which have the best resolution and "simulation of reality" of all.
War is the ultimate FPS. But that's the most expensive version of all.
--
BMO
Re:We've had truly immersive FPSes. (Score:4, Insightful)
War is the ultimate FPS. But that's the most expensive version of all.
Resetting at the end of a match is also significantly more difficult.
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if you want more to report on, stop complaining and do something about it. its easy to complain, harder to do!
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It's not the quantity that bothers me. It's the quality. Everyone's talking programmer cliches (unfit, no real life friends) and no one's asking how the 2 dimensional treadmill works.
So, anyone knows how it works?
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I'm pretty sure he is. Note how he stands still to aim...
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Because you want to be able to play in a limited space; if you have a large space to walk around in, you don't need the treadmill.
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"if devices like kinect can measure leg [movement]... why need treadmill for input?"
So you don't run forward 4 feet and crash into the screen?
Agreed, lean and strafe are missing (Score:4, Insightful)
As are kneeling, crawling, zooming, jumping. backpedaling, activating stuff (opening doors etc.) and other functions. I would also venture a guess that rotation gets done a lot quicker on the PC than on a treadmill as I didn't notice the kid moving much more than 40-60 degrees in any direction in a hurry. I'm guessing because the system is slow or inaccurate in response to this type of movement.
And I'm sure I can "easily" win using these techniques, when fighting someone who hasn't got those options.
While it may just be a matter of integrating these functions into the controller (possibly in the gun), these are lacking, and often used functions. I also see some limitations in that it would probably be difficult to integrate this into tank/airplane/helo movement, for vehicles, and chutes, ropes, ladders and ziplines in other games. But for a customized game this would be nice. Unfortunately I have seen too many controllers that only support a few games die because they lack the option to be used in other games. Light guns, VR goggles, the 360 orb, the gaming glove and a few others spring to mind (Yes, I have spent far too much cash on gaming, I know)
I'd love to back the development though, and will definitely sign up for the kickstarter when it goes public. I'd also love to buy one of these eventually.... But I doubt my GF would let me keep it....
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My concern would be that, once you start demanding enough actual movement to get the (quite sophisticated) mechanisms we have for tracking and localizing our body in space(It's actually pretty impressive. Unless you have a lesion study all about you, you should find things like 'bring the tips of your left and right index finger together, behind your back, with your eyes closed' quite trivial, assuming your joints are up to it, all based on unconscious processing of various sensory input) any fudging of the