Toyota Experimenting With Joystick Control For Cars 609
alphadogg writes "Today it's the stuff of video games, but Toyota is experimenting with joystick control for a new breed of compact cars and transporters. The world's biggest car maker built the technology into a couple of concept vehicles that were on display Wednesday at the Tokyo Motor Show. The FT-EV II, which got its world premiere at the event, is a compact electric vehicle designed for short trips. The car retains seats for four passengers despite being much more compact than most other cars, and packs drive-by-wire technology so it can be controlled with a joystick. The car's steering, braking and acceleration can be controlled by hand so foot pedals aren't needed, freeing up space to provide more legroom for the driver."
Old news - Saab tried this in the 80s (Score:4, Interesting)
They had some experimental vehicle that used a joystick. Upshot was that the joystick is NOT a good way to control a car due to its small range of movement. Doing subtle manouvering was a right PITA. Sure , technology may improve things but frankly a steering wheel gives perfect feedback for what it does and if something ain't broken...
Re:Power Steering failure? (Score:5, Interesting)
Very good point. I've run out of gas twice, which kills power steering -- both times I'd have been stranded in the middle lane of a busy road had I not been able to coast the car long enough to pull over somewhere safe.
Re:I seem to remember (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Special license needed? (Score:4, Interesting)
In the UK you can pass your test in an automatic car, but then you aren't allowed to drive a stick (what we call 'manual gearbox'). You need to take your test in a manual gearbox car to be allowed to drive manual+auto.
One of the great things about old land rovers like mine is of course the non-standard controls that make it harder for people to steal. First it's diesel, so you have to know to warm the engine on the 'glow' setting for a bit. If they get past that and the engine starts, then they have to know I've left the transfer box lever in neutral so the wheels won't go round even with the gear lever in. Oh and just for fun I can leave it in 4wd so if they do nick it the transmission will lock up on the road and leave them with a broken car. And half the time the battery is disconnected anyway because it goes flat if I don't drive for two weeks. Drive-by-wire? No thanks! And all those wusses complaining about failing power steering! Sheesh, grow some muscles!
Re:Special license needed? (Score:2, Interesting)
In many countries, you do actually need a different license to drive a manual. The UK and Australia, for example. The manual license covers both, since automatic cars are trivial to drive if you can already drive a manual. The reverse is not true.
Changing the controls means that you need to concentrate far more on operating the controls, which means you won't be concentrating on the road as much. A driving license test for your ability to safely control the car. There's no way you'd be able to pass a driving test in a manual unless you were comfortable with the controls, almost to the point where they become effortless.
For example - an emergency stop. In an automatic, you just step on the brake pedal, and back off slightly when the tyres start to lose grip. In a manual, you also have to step on the clutch. If you don't, the engine will stall, taking the power steering and brakes with it. Suddenly, you're not pushing the break pedal nearly hard enough, and you probably won't be able to react to that before you hit something. Plus you've probably damaged the gearbox.
Switching to a joystick is a far greater difference than just adding a clutch and gear stick, particularly if you also remove the pedals. All that motor memory you developed driving with a wheel and pedals becomes completely useless. Taking the emergency stop example again - your first instinct will be to hit the brake pedal. Chances are your right foot will move without any conscious thought. There isn't a brake pedal. By the time you realise this, and remember what you're supposed to do, it'll probably already be too late.
Re:I seem to remember (Score:2, Interesting)
The problem is that when you're on city streets, going between 0-30mph, you need to make both precise small corrections that correspond to fractions of an inch on a steering wheel, but occasionally at the same speeds, you need to make larger fast motions to avoid potholes, people in parked cars opening their doors, little children running out into the street, or idiots on cell phones not watching where they're going and drifting into your lane. There's no gain control algorithm that'll let you have both fine and (fast) coarse control algorithm if its only input is vehicle speed, and the joystick has a fixed range of motion.
Outside of very constrained environments like factory floors and airport tarmacs, I don't think there's really a place for joystick-only control, just because the same dynamic range that you have in a multi-turn wheel just isn't there.
Re:So many problems... (Score:3, Interesting)
I've flown an F15 simulator (the real one, not FlightGear) and the joy stick is pretty cool once you figure it out.
The plane is fly-by-wire. You set the stick to what you want and the computers take care of it. So you set the stick to fly straight and the computers fly it straight.
The one disconcerting thing is that the stick doesn't center; you put the plane in a right hand turn and it stays there until you apply reverse pressure to make it fly straight.
So I can see something like this. You set it to go straight and it does. You set it to turn left, and it will center like a steering wheel does.
You push forward to accelerate and pull back to slow down. You pull back it slows down and stops and stays stopped. You release the pressure and pull back and the car shifts into reverse.
Very different from a 1960s type system; we have lots better technology now.
change drivers without stopping (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Force Feedback? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Special license needed? (Score:4, Interesting)
In the UK you can pass your test in an automatic car, but then you aren't allowed to drive a stick (what we call 'manual gearbox'). You need to take your test in a manual gearbox car to be allowed to drive manual+auto.
We should do this in the US, actually.
Drive-by-wire? No thanks! And all those wusses complaining about failing power steering! Sheesh, grow some muscles!
Actually, manual and power assisted steering boxes use very different gearings. There is less torque multiplication (lower numerical gearing) in a assisted box... because it's "assisted" and doesn't normally need it. A car with non functioning power steering will need much more effort than a car with manual steering because the gearing is wider. Vehicle weight over the front tires and the front tire width has a big effect, as well.
An example would be the manual steering in my father's 1955 Stuebaker versus the 1984 BMW 318i I drove which had power steering but would leak out all its fluid in a day or so (so I always drove it empty). The BMW took a lot of effort, the Studebaker much less so.
Horror (Score:3, Interesting)
Frightens the living daylights out of me driving an automatic car!
An automatically shifting car? Terrifying. What's next? Automatic traction control or *gasp* all-wheel drive? The horror... This automation thing has to stop.
You're driving along and suddenly the car jumps and changes up or down the gears. Hey car, I want to decide when I want you to change gear, don't want you jumping up and down through the gearbox when you feel like it.
Spoken like someone who rarely gets stuck in traffic jams. I like a manual transmission too (prefer it actually) but there is a beauty in simply pointing the car and having it go. If your automatic transmission lurches that much that it bothers you there is probably something wrong with the machine. Lots of cars have a manu-matic as well if you are really that desperate to control the shift points. Virtually everyone who has a manu-matic pretty much lets the car do the shifting most of the time though. Shifting manually is fun but a pointless exercise most of the time for most people.
I want to slowly lift off the clutch and get the engine to bite when I want it to bite.
The high end transmissions these days are automated clutches in one form or another. You shift just like normal but the clutch engagement is automatic and (usually) much faster than you could do it yourself. You still chose the shift points but there is no shift pedal - just a stick or paddles. Hate to say it but the clutch pedal is a relic that has no functional reason to exist anymore. It only sticks around because people like it - not because it is actually necessary or even all that useful 99% of the time.
Re:Johnny Cab (Score:3, Interesting)
However, that leads to a possible over accel condition, which can be very bad, but once ur pushed into your seat, slowing should be much easier.
Re:Special license needed? (Score:2, Interesting)
Extra fun confusion. American cars, right hand floor console is the gearshift for manual transmission. On the left side of the column is the signals.
On a forklift, the gearshift is on the left or on both sides of the column. Some nights after work I'd jump in my car.. put it in reverse naturally and back out, return the transmission to neutral and coast the last few feet, then flip the righthand turn signal trying to shift to forward. Thankfully I'd hear the turn signal and realize what I failed to accomplish before moving on. Once I realized I wasn't on a forklift anymore, I'd drive just fine.
I haven't been in on a forklift in 2 years, I still manage to do the same thing every once in a while in my column shift automatic transmission pickup. Usually though, I'll flip the left blinker on thinking I'm going into reverse.
Driving a joystick car shouldnt be too hard. I've driven bobcats no problem. Pulling back on the controls is natural to stop forward motion.