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Creative Sued for Base-10 Capacities On HDD MP3 Players 528

Dorkz brings news of a class-action settlement from Creative Labs over the capacity of their HDD MP3 players. Evidently they calculated drive capacity in base-10 (1,000,000,000 bytes per GB) instead of base-2 (1,073,741,824 bytes per GB). The representative plaintiff is entitled to $5,000, and everyone else who bought one of the HDD MP3 players in the past several years gets a 50% discount on a new 1GB player[PDF]. They can also opt for a 20% discount on anything ordered from Creative's online store. Creative has made available all of the necessary legal forms. Seagate lost a similar lawsuit late last year.
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Creative Sued for Base-10 Capacities On HDD MP3 Players

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  • by pintpusher ( 854001 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @12:18AM (#23271034) Journal
    Completely orthagonal to the whole stupid debate over base10/base2 gi(bi|ga)bytes or whatever....

    I really hate this trend. A corporation loses a case and the punishment is that consumers get to spend more money with them. I fully believe that they will at least break even if not make money on this settlement. WTF. They should be forced to refund everyone who bought one of these players an amount equivalent to the proportion of storage space the "lost".

    I'm a class action settlement "Winner" in my business and my prize? I get 20% off products that are outside my usual purchase contract with the company. How lame is that! They get to keep charging me the same ripoff prices as before *and* I get to spend more money with them. And if I mess up filling out the little coupons, then they are invalid, no recourse. </rant>

  • got wood? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by unt0ld ( 1282914 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @12:27AM (#23271088)
    Does this mean I can sue Home Depot because 2x4 studs do not measure out to be exactly 2 inches by 4 inches? They are actually 1.5 x 3.5. That's a lot of missing wood.
  • Re:50%? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 02, 2008 @12:31AM (#23271102)
    Because it is part of the trade, and if you don't understand the rules and definitions in the trade tough shit, you should learn them before getting involved.

    Nobody is suing lumber manufacturers because 2x4s aren't 2 inches by 4 inches. Everyone in the trade understands the real dimensions. If you want to get involved in construction you have to learn things like that.
  • Re:50%? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by aleph42 ( 1082389 ) * on Friday May 02, 2008 @12:32AM (#23271112)
    Because when your OS displays the empty space on your device, it uses powers of 2.

    You don't have to be a "technical professional" if you OSãtranslates for you.
  • by Toonol ( 1057698 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @01:00AM (#23271298)
    Yeah, but honestly, everybody ignores the standard bodies on this issue. Does your computer have 512 megabytes of ram or 537 mb? It's very rare that anybody refers to a memory measurement based on a power of 10, and it's obviously going to be pretty unanimously misinterpreted if printed that way on product labeling.

    Printing both clearly would be fine, though.
  • Re:What? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by karmatic ( 776420 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @03:12AM (#23271936)
    A gigabyte is exactly one billion bites, hence the name "Giga".

    Um, no. A kilobyte is exactly 1024 bytes. It's "close enough" to 1000, hence the term "kilo". Why bother making up a whole bunch of new prefixes when there's one that already exists, especially given that it's blindingly obvious that the original meaning makes no sense in context?

    Since measurements are conventions of man to begin with, they mean what people define them to mean. The original definition of kilobyte was 1024, since 1000 bytes is an largely useless number in base 2. If we were working in base 10, it would make sense. Terms are redefined based on context all the time - after all, what does a "metric tonne" have to do with pounds, anyway? As in this case, there was a term (ton) that was "close enough" to what they wanted, so they used it.

    Once they were (wrongly or not) used and understood to mean 1024, saying "kilo always means 1000, and can never mean anything else" is senseless pedantry.

    Creative (and other companies) attempted to redefine a commonly used and understood term, and did so for the purpose of making their product appear to be larger than it actually was. It was not done because it provided a more meaningful, or useful measurement. It made the companies that did it look bigger than the companies that didn't, and everyone decided to play "keep up with the joneses".
  • by h4rm0ny ( 722443 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @03:43AM (#23272036) Journal

    SI prefixes are there to make things simpler. They don't do that in the case of KB, MB, etc. because it has different needs. Only people who lack understanding of what the numbers mean find it confusing, whilst using base 10 is more awkward for those who do know what they mean. Why should technical terms be biased toward those who know less? A very long history of usage determines the meaning of the word and the re-definition came solely from marketing departments deliberately trying to cause confusion to profit from it. Thank about it: if everyone used the same terms, there are no preferential terms you can exploit to make your product sound better than it is, but when there is confusion over terms, you can use the preferential one and rely on people's expectation that it is another meaning. The only profit is in confusion. And then once the hard drive marketing departments had instigated this confusion, it was sustained by people who liked to be able to correct others.

  • Re:This is stupid (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Nullav ( 1053766 ) <mocNO@SPAMliamg.valluN> on Friday May 02, 2008 @06:31AM (#23272534)
    Here's a nice idea: State what you mean on the box. "2TB (SI)" Drive manufacturers and the like will still use SI kilobytes for the sake of larger numbers, but at least we can all stop arguing about this stuff and put that suing power to a better use. Also, I will never ever say 'tebibit' aloud.
  • by Propaganda13 ( 312548 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @06:39AM (#23272568)
    I remember Iomega's settlement for the click of death was "Sorry, we built a poor quality product that was supposed to back up your data, but lost it instead. How about you buy another product from us at a reduced priced"

    Give a check for $3.50 instead, but don't give me a discount on the same manufacturer's products.

    I haven't looked lately, but I thought a lot of manufacturers used GB*.
    *GB refers to 1,000,000,000 bytes. on their packages.
  • Byte me. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by argent ( 18001 ) <peter@@@slashdot...2006...taronga...com> on Friday May 02, 2008 @08:59AM (#23273280) Homepage Journal
    We have an SI standard for this nomenclature now. No matter what idiot lawayers want to argue they can't deny the fact that GB is defined for base-10 usage and GiB is base-2.

    Given that even people who are advocating this obscure terminology can't get it right (it's IEC, not SI, that defined this standard, and if you want to use SI units, you should be calling them "Octets" not "Bytes"), and that virtually nobody (not even the drive manufacturers) actually uses it outside legalese and fine print, I think you are making unreasonable assumptions and unreasonable demands.
  • by koollman ( 720649 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @09:21AM (#23273470)
    How can it makes sense for memory but not disks ?

    On my computer, disks sectors are 512 bytes, and the most commonly used memory block size is 4096 bytes. which is also the block size of my fs. now, what happens if the blocks on disks and in ram are not multiple of each others ?

    Should I use non-aligned storage in ram when reading the fs or use non-aligned blocks on my hard drive?
    And how should I calculate the hard drive cache size ? with powers of ten ? And how about DMA ?

    The point is : connected pieces of hardware should use the same basic units. and since it really makes sense to use power of two for some of these pieces, these basic units really should use powers of two.
  • by smallfries ( 601545 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @09:51AM (#23273820) Homepage
    OK, I'll take that challenge.

    Most quantities that we measure are base-neutral so we default to base-10 because it is the standard counting system. But when we measure storage we are talking about a volume of information. And information in digital form is inherently binary, both when stored, and when manipulated.

    So the only base that it makes sense to talk about amounts-of-information in is binary. Hence decades of engineers using the correct, i.e most logical measurements.

    Now on a tangent, but if I think (way back) to my school days I seem to remember being taught kB, mB and gB. The idea being that the lower case prefix would prevent confusion with SI prefixs. But I'm way too lazy to look for some sort of citation for that, and yes, only engineers would think that reduces confusion.
  • Re:50%? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Alpha830RulZ ( 939527 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @10:16AM (#23274168)
    2x4's are definitely 1.5" x 3.5" as purchased. It's close enough to exact as to not matter (construction grade lumber is not a tight precision material). They -have- to be pretty close to this spec, or the plans won't work out. Framers don't even measure them to check. They've been this way as long as I have built stuff, which is coming up on 40 years.

    Around the turn of the century, a 2 x 4 was definitely a 2x4. I had an older house that used them. However, the studs were still on 16 inch centers.

    I don't buy any planing and shrinking argument. The turn of the century boards didn't shrink, and they were cut from douglas firs, same as the modern ones I use. I think the industry just wanted to get more boards out of a tree. Interestingly, they are still priced by the board foot, which is calculated on the nominal, rather than the actual measurements. This is true for 2 x 6's, 2 x 8's, 2 x 12's, etc, as well.
  • by shutdown -p now ( 807394 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @10:48AM (#23274624) Journal
    WTF does it have to do with Americans? I'm not an American, I'm Russian. I don't know anyone here who would strongly believe that kilobyte is not 1024 bytes. In fact, most local books of a "Learn to use PC in 7 days" kind explicitly state that kilobyte = 1024 bytes. Metric doesn't have anything to do with it - yes, it was used for a long time for SI units, but byte is not a SI unit! And, for as long as byte was used as a unit of measurement, "kilobyte" has meant "1024 bytes" for the majority of users, like it or not.
  • Gibi = garbage (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Gonoff ( 88518 ) on Friday May 02, 2008 @03:42PM (#23278796)

    IT has always calculated in powers of 2. The "gibi" nonsense was invented by dodgy salesmen to talk up their equipment.

    Even Microsoft gets it right. I am sitting at a machine with a HDD of 60,011,606,016 bytes. It was sold as 60GB but Windows reports it correctly as 55.8. Why should people be misled because some suit wearing sales wheasel decided to invent a series of rubbish words beginning in gibi?

    We need more court cases until this misrepresentation ends. Have you noticed that flat screen monitor sizes are correct, where CRT ones dishonestly used to include bits of the tube you couldn't even see...

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