Plug-and-Play for Automobile Embedded Systems 103
wskellenger writes "This article in the EE Times describes Autosar, a consortium of German automakers and suppliers that aims to standardize vehicle software infrastructure. In this way, vehicle software can be used in different ECUs, reducing complexity and development time for OEMs and suppliers."
Re:plug thine arse (Score:1, Offtopic)
The future of car automation (Score:5, Insightful)
Things have been going in this direction for quite awhile. The Corvette in 97 went to a serial communications protocol, talking to 14 different control units. It also had a throttle by wire system that eliminated a LOT of complexity in the traction control, cruse control and throttle applications. Active handling, a SIGNIFICANT feature, required a software change and two sensors.
The next step is to get sensors to talk this protocol. Rather than having a dumb sensor that goes to a control unit that interprets the message, you have a temp. sensor that the manufacturer doesn't have to worry about. They just need to look for a temperature unit reporting water temp, or another unit reporting vehicle speed on the wire.
Then the cruise control, the radio, the speedometer, etc all just have to listen for that packet that says 'wheel speed is 60 mph'.
the Cool thing is, the vendor that makes the Vehicle Speed Sensor might do it today for $50. Next year it may be $42, the year after, they might redesign it to have zero moving parts (optical) and with custom asics, make it a $12 part. Will that translate to a cheaper vehicle for you? probably not...but it'll make your car last longer, and will be easier to troubleshoot.
Make your car last longer ?!?!? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Make your car last longer ?!?!? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ever heard of SEMA? (Specialty Equipment Manufacturer's Association) They're a HUGE lobbying group for aftermarket suppliers of parts.
Microsoft perrenial upgrades? When your car is running okay, what do you put in it? Gas? Tires? What else? It won't automatically stop running if you don't pay your EA license.
Comparing the Auto industry to the Computer industry is just flat stupid and a non-starter.
Re:Make your car last longer ?!?!? (Score:2)
Re:The future of car automation (Score:1)
GM, the leader in innovation (Score:2)
Meanwhile, the same technology was in German and Japanese cars at least 2-3 years before, depending upon the manufacturer. Who do you think GM got the idea from?
Re:The future of car automation (Score:2)
Not exactly. The sensor says "tempature 200." Is that oil tempature, engine water inlet tempature, or engine water outlet tempature? You specified water, but the same sensor [electronics?] may be used in different parts. Where was it installed needs to be indicated somehow.
Some things can be infered if it is operating normally. Tempatures of 100 and 220 indicate inlet and outlet, respectivly (not sure if that is reasonable range, but you get the point). What if the sensor is broke though and is givi
Re:The future of car automation (Score:1)
To truely understand the process of moving from 'fully mechanical' to 'fully automated', just take a look at another industry that's much farther along that curve, and understand the reasons it is, and how it got where it is. Look at aviation, in particular, the large
Think how this relates to the Internet (Score:2)
Standards for communication protocols. A variety of components from different manufacturers, all interoperating because everyone follows the standards. "Embrace and extend" is fatal-- your components won't be chosen by the end user (in this case, the car manufacturers).
This is a true driver of innovation (that word I always hear from one of our beloved software manufacturers). You know your product will compete on its merits, because any manufacturer (or, I suppose, car owner/tinkerer) can truly plug it in
Re:The future of car automation (Score:1)
Our ABS module reports vehicle speed (and actually four individual wheel speeds) that allow the 4WD system controller to do its job. Diconnect the ABS module and you also lose "automa
All this homogeneity (Score:2, Funny)
Re:All this homogeneity (Score:1)
Re:All this homogeneity (Score:2, Funny)
1) speed up, or
2) swerve to the right
That will fix the biggest problem on our expressways.
Re:All this homogeneity (Score:1)
Get out of the left lane. It's not the smoking end of the high school. You do not just "hang out" in the left lane when there's nothing on TV to watch and you're bored.
Move over to the right. ALL the way to the right. If you have to pass, stay left long enough to pass, then move right again. ALL the way. The middle lane isn't right, it's middle. So if you're in the middle lane, keep moving to the right.
And don't get into the left lane, accelerate to
Re:All this homogeneity (Score:1)
WinCE? (Score:1)
Re:WinCE? (Score:3, Funny)
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
Bumble Bee? (Score:1)
Transformers aren't from another planet, they're from Germany.
So... (Score:2)
Less software not more in Cars (Score:2, Interesting)
If my computer crashes because of a bug I can replace it.
If my car crashes because of a computer bug, me , someone I care about or someone who could sue me could be injured or killed.
Re:Less software not more in Cars (Score:1)
Cars get far better gas milage and produce far fewer pollutants than they did before the introduction of electronics. I would argue that they are also more reliable. You can buy cars now that can be driven for 100,000 miles with only regular maintenance (oil, filters, etc). You don't even have to change the spark plugs.
Re:Less software not more in Cars (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Less software not more in Cars (Score:1)
Its common to install fuel injection in older cars (cult cars) though, bec
More software, not less, in Cars (Score:1)
Ever wonder about the gibberish that your local import tuners (hot rodders with Hondas, Subaru's, etc) keep spewing about ECUs? They're reprogramming the air-fuel mixture at various p
Re:More software, not less, in Cars (Score:2)
Yeah, because pulling the block, boring it 30 over, putting in new headers, manifold, crank, cam, heads, pistons, rings, 4 bbl carbs (perhaps a predator tri-pak, and electronic ignition are oh so non-configurable!
You haven't seen configurable unless you've seen a fully tricked out 30's street rod cruising town. Now that's a car.
Re:More software, not less, in Cars (Score:1)
Oops! That's because most of those mods have either been done by the manufacturer of a modern car already (upgraded internals and better breathing), or the manufacturer's standard config (with things like fuel injection and distributorless ignition) is better. (Don't bother arguing that a 4 bbl carb is better than computer controlled port injection. Simpler, yes, but not better.)
For example, take the F20C out of my car (Honda S2000),
Re:Less software not more in Cars (Score:2)
If my car crashes because of a computer bug, me , someone I care about or someone who could sue me could be injured or killed.
We replace a lot of modules, sensors and the like. The customer complaint is either "the check engine light came on" or "it's running/shifting a little rough." Your car will only crash from a faulty computer if you ignore the lights and let it go until the computer falls out of the car. Similarly, you'll only go off the
Operating System (Score:1)
The standardization of automotive operating systems is not regarded as an AUTOSAR goal but existing standards and products such as OSEK, VxWorks, Windows CE for automotive and their derivatives will be taken into consideration and used in AUTOSAR.
Adding in words like AUTOSAR interfaces, "AUTOSAR runtime environment (RTE)" and microprocessor abstraction layer, I'd say that they are taking a page out of Java's handbook.
AUTOSAR related to HOMSAR? (Score:2)
Test Equipment (Score:1)
Just strip the OEM electronics out (Score:2)
Unfortunately, the above is technically illegal in a lot of places because it lets you bypass emissions controls. Not where I live, though.
Re:Test Equipment (Score:1)
Re:Test Equipment (Score:1)
each manufacturer developed their own implementation using whatever protocol they thought best.
Yeah, and those dealers really want to standardize all the ODB diagnostics. Cause they don't want to charge you $100 just to run the diagnostic. GM only standardized because it was easier for them for two reasons, a)because all the cars were easier to manufacture if the only part that was different was the Chevy, Pontiac, or what have you emblem; and b) it was becoming a nightmare f
Re:Test Equipment (Score:1)
Integrated software? (Score:1)
There are already too many vehicle LAN standards (Score:4, Informative)
This new Autosar announcement is really a spec for an operating system. The companies pushing it don't want to say that, because that means taking on Microsoft. So they present this as a middleware layer. But it's really an operating system API that provides independence from the underlying OS. Think Netscape plug-ins.
Re:There are already too many vehicle LAN standard (Score:2)
This is important as Microsoft has expressed an interest in automotive control systems. In fact, I recently found out that the iDrive system in BMW 7 series automobiles is Windows CE based. (No wonder I hated t
Re:There are already too many vehicle LAN standard (Score:1)
J1939 is even subdivided into several different sub-protocols. The heavy vehicle stuff (also used by the military) is J1939/71. There are also different versions for factory automation and agricultural vehicles. What's really needed is a CAN type standard (either new or an extension of a current one) to allow standard parts to be hung on a car's bus and used by all manufacturers.
I'm not sure if a fixed OS structure will be particuarly helpful. Different con
Re:There are already too many vehicle LAN standard (Score:2)
I think legally automobile components have to be available for a decade. This means that MS has to allow licence sales ten years after replacing the product, and support the product through whatever fixes may be needed, not just support and sell for maybe five years as they does now.
You forgot AVC-lan! (Score:2)
Windows ?! (Score:1)
Re:Windows ?! (Score:2)
You know, I thought that was kind of a stupid, not as funny as intended kind of post until you got to the bit about the radio.
I can just imagine MS putting code in that only permitted a DRM-compliant radio to work in a car - which would mean no home-burned compliations, legal or not, knowing the way DRM usually ends up 'functioning'.
Anyway, I think that level of problem is far enough off that one need not be paranoid quite yet.
Re:Windows ?! (Score:1)
Re:Windows ?! (Score:1)
Aftermarket Radios (wasRe:Windows ?!) (Score:1)
Hmm. depends. Some cars you can't now -- you have to keep your existing radio, or the car's computer will screw up. Like my Oldsmobile. Apparently there's some way of doing it that involves a re-location kit to mount it in the trunk, but that exceeds my attention span.
Please, oh please don't let it be windows based. (Score:1)
So when I crash my next car... (Score:2)
The down side is, it will happen several times per week, and usually right when I most need to get somewhere...
Next Logical Step (Score:1)
Granted, it a standard for pulling
Standardization Always (Score:2)
These parts are expensive because they are proprietary. Only a Ford controller can be fitted to a ford car. Doesn't matter who makes it, it has to be made specific for a given type of car no matter what. Standardizing would help bring these costs down a great deal.
P
Re:Standardization Always (Score:3, Informative)
What we need is a standardised spec with standardised connectors. That way you take your Napa Gold System controller, tell it it's a Corvette Left Door Control Module and go to town.
(The aforementioned LDCM has a sensor to tell door state, relays to control door lock solenoid actuation, and relays to handle the power window. Concievably you'd buy a Napa Gold 4 port controller as i
Re:Standardization Always (Score:1)
There are some very powerful disincentives to introducing standardized (i.e. generic) hardware or software into any automobile. Start with the notion expressed in the EE Times article that software from one manufacturer would run on another's hardware. Today the auto industry treats software as if it were free, and pays only for metal boxes with wires coming out of them. The Euro
QNX in Automotive (Score:1)
Bug or Lemon (Score:3, Interesting)
At what point does all the computer bugs in your car create a point where you can legitimately invoke the lemon law provisions?
On a side note I started trailing a lady in a brand new BMW 7 series a couple of days ago. The car's emergency flashers were on and at the leisurely pace she was taking things I knew she wasn't aware of it.
So I pulled alongside at a redlight, fortunately she had her drivers side window down, so I shouted to her that her emergency flashers were on.
She looked really surprised and muttered something to the effect of "Oh really". Not a doubting oh really, but a surprised oh really.
Apparently there was no indicator inside the car telling her what was happening with her lights.
If I'm not mistaken the BMW 7 series has a Windows CE O/S? I've heard the 5 series does.
I know I'd be incredibly irritated to spend the kind of money she had in that BMW only to find it riddled with computer bugs.
Lastly, isn't it the law in the US that car makers have to "support" the vehicles they sell for 8 years?
Will MS still be willing to issue a BMW patch 8 years from now? They've certainly seemed to be trying to reduce the amount of time they support a particular version of their O/Ses.
user-accessible diagnostics would be nice (Score:2)
Re:user-accessible diagnostics would be nice (Score:1)
Re:user-accessible diagnostics would be nice (Score:2)
The diagnostic interface to all cars that are sold in the USA *is* standardized. Look under the dash somewhere close to the steering wheel and you should see a socket (probably covered with a snap-shut cover). This must conform to the 'OBDII' standard.
You can buy the interface pack to hang a laptop or PDA onto the car:
eg: http://www.elmelectronics.com/
There are also circuit diagrams out there to let you build your own if you want to (they interface into the se
Vehicle software (Score:2, Interesting)
1. How will the DMCA affect this? Will we still be able to work on our
Re:Vehicle software (Score:2)
According to the link you posted, these aren't standard... the standard for them is being developed. At least, it was as of April 2002, and it seems unlikely that in less than a year it's gone from concept to standard equipment.
However, standardization of car electronics interface would probably make the project you've pointed out quite a bit easier.
reliability, reliability, reliability. (Score:2)
It is a nice idea to have plug and play components and are able to access the control system for tweeking, diagnostics, etc. But, you also have to consider how much control should a car owner/user be permitted to do.
Re:reliability, reliability, reliability. (Score:2)
It's not going to be easy to physically manufacture a workable/reliable ECU.
Then you can bet there are going to be liability issues in car wrecks.
It really doesn't bear thinking about - yet it's something I think NEEDS to be thought about. OpenSource software un
Standard audio controls/system (Score:2)
Standardize the on-the-wheel audio control interface so I can use it to do simple things like control volume, skip/search track/station.
If someone could do this, we would all save hundreds by not getting the overpriced audio options the car dealer has. Whoops, doesn't sound like it'll happen anytime soon.
The BMW/MINI Cooper saga. (Score:5, Informative)
This has consequences. Firstly, when you buy a new MINI Cooper, you get really poor gas milage for the first few tanks of gas - but gradually (as the ECU learns), it gets better.
So far, so good.
But the MINI has a problem (known as the 'stumble' amongst owners) - it's a software bug that appeared in 2003 model-year cars - older cars don't have it unless they upgrade to the 3.3.x version of the ECU software for some reason.
Under the special combinations of high air temperatures (and perhaps only in low humidity) in the summer in the southern USA - and with 'Reformulated Gasoline' that we get here in Texas and in Florida - the car sometimes stalls out at dangerous times. (eg You pull out into traffic - and the car stalls halfway across the road).
The stumble was VERY hard to diagnose - both because BMW couldn't reproduce the problem - it took a lot of MINI enthusiasts across the US to finally figure it out.
We (within the owner's community) decided that this couldn't possibly be temperature related - because the car would still stumble in the cool of early morning. We decided it couldn't be reformulated gas because we could drive to Oklahoma - buy a tankful of "the good stuff" - and still experience the stumble.
During a heatwave in Washington (who also have reformulated gas) - there were no reports of 'stumbles'.
These were cases where diagnosis was made almost impossible because the ECU had *learned* to stumble - and needed either cool temps or better gas for THREE TANKFULS in order to recover from it. People who experienced a short heatwave - or who bought only one or two tankfuls of reformulated gas didn't see the problem.
In consequence, it's taken over a year to convince BMW that there really is a problem and to find out what it is. However, BMW themselves can't fix it. They have to work through Siemens to get to the third company who programed the ECU so it could be fixed - and those guys didn't want to just fix it "the easy way" because it would have the potential to screw up performance in other kinds of car that use the same ECU software.
We are promised a fix for the stumbles - sometime in December.
This is all VERY yukky and unsatisfactory.
The thought of trying to write OpenSource ECU software came to mind - and there are some projects out there to do just that. This ECU has reloadable software - using a serial port connection that appears just under the steering wheel (used for emissions control stuff too). You can buy a cable to adapt the car's serial port to that of your laptop or PDA - and there is even software to let you read out and reset the engine management error codes in the comfort of your own driveway.
Armed with a laptop, your car dealership can upload new software into your car in about 20 minutes.
However, attempts to do this ourselves resulted in a fascinating inside into what the world of Palladium/DRM. When you tell the MINI "Please accept a new software load" - it sends you back a 16 bit random number. You are supposed to execute some predefined math operations on that number and send back the result as another 16 bit number. If you get the answer wrong, the car completely shuts down for 3 HOURS! You can't even start it under those circumstances - let alone try again with the software download. Obviously, the math operations you have to evaluate to solve this challenge/response scheme are secret.
So - welcome to the world of the future. For some of us it's already here!
Re:The BMW/MINI Cooper saga. (Score:2)
Re:The BMW/MINI Cooper saga. (Score:2)
I am selling my car [autotrader.com], however. The MINI is a fantastic car, but I want an IS-300 instead.
Chip H.
Re:The BMW/MINI Cooper saga. (Score:2)
So long as you don't get the ECU software upgraded to the 3.2, 3.3, 3.4 or 3.5 ECU software - you should be fine. The 3.6 version is supposed to have the fix - and versions prior to 3.2 don't seem to exhibit the problem.
Without reformulated gas, I doubt you'd ever see the problem - and even if you happened to visit a place that has it and bought just one tankful, I don't think that's enough to throw the ECU's algorithms off enough
RS-485 (Score:1)
Re:What does my engine light mean? (Score:1)
Plug 'n' play (Score:1)
"Reliable alternative!" (Score:1)
I prefer to use Homsar [homestarrunner.com], the captain of the gravy train. It's a song form the sixties.
This would be a great venue for OSS (Score:1)
Re:This would be a great venue for OSS (Score:1)
Re:YOU FAIL IT (Score:1)
OT: Oxycontin Addiction--It Could Be You. (Score:1)
Because he's an idiot
That's a very short sighted statement. Rush was prescribed Oxycontin for post-operative pain. Learn more about Oxycontin. [whitehousedrugpolicy.gov] Notice, it does not appear that anybody has kept statistics on what percentage of patients prescribed Oxycontin by doctors went on to become addicts. However, the marketers of this product (oxycontin is not a new drug, it's a different form of delivery for a synthetic opiate) have been criticized for over aggressive marketing to physicians (who really ought n