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Music Media Portables Hardware

Music Companies Bemoan New High-Cap Portables 347

An anonymous reader writes "New Scientist reports: 'The music industry this week condemned the launch of two recording systems that will let people copy between 30 and 100 hours of music onto a single disc.'" The Sony system is supposed to use "ultra-efficient data compression system used in MiniDiscs" to fit "30 hours of MP3 music" on a CD-R. (I thought MD used ATRAC rather than MP3, and that ATRAC's standard bitrate was 285.3 Kbps -- can some MD gurus bring us up to speed?) Philips' system skips CDs, and instead uses a DVD burner, with the resulting disks playable in a to-be-released portable player. I wonder what kind of DRM features the companies will use to cripple each system.
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Music Companies Bemoan New High-Cap Portables

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  • by SystematicPsycho ( 456042 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:15PM (#5521770)
    So what? Unless they have some sort of legal grounds against it condemning will be old news in hours. It is as if they are admitting being dealt a blow.
  • In other news... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by mrpuffypants ( 444598 ) <mrpuffypants@gm a i l . c om> on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:15PM (#5521773)
    In other news.....

    Apple Released a 100 GB iPod, to much fanfare
  • by idontgno ( 624372 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:17PM (#5521783) Journal
    carefully avoided condemning the Sony recorder? Good political move. I guess it's piracy only if you don't sell the cd-burner. I wonder if there was any infighting in Sony's executive suite about this.

    Mike Tsurumi, a president of Sony Consumer Electronics in Berlin, insists that the move makes sense. "The music companies need to change their business model," he says.

    Now if only the "content industry" were to hear and believe this.

  • It actually is (Score:5, Interesting)

    by JWyner ( 653364 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:18PM (#5521786)
    The music division of Sony has sued the consumer electronics division multiple times. The CE division is no longer allowed to make MP3 devices (like an iPod).
  • by Fulcrum of Evil ( 560260 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:22PM (#5521801)

    Isn't there a CEO of Sony corporate who keeps his divisions in line with the goals (i.e. bottom line interests) of the company as a whole?

    Japanese companies seem to have a thing for conglomerates. I suppose it helps to diversify, but how can something as scattered as Sony be said to have a coherent vision? The only unifying theme I can think of is tech - Sony makes just about anything that holds a computer chip, but they don't do snacks, and they don't do textiles. Strangely, they do make thermoses.

  • Amazing (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:23PM (#5521809)
    I just find it totally amazing what neat little gadget come out that are actually usefull... Just to be squashed by by media companies or crippled so they become useless. All in the name of copyright protection. Give me a break... Unless I can listen to music on my terms and where I want, I am not interested. And I am not talking about stealing music but using what I purchased when I want and where I want.
  • Re:As usual (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Blue Stone ( 582566 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:26PM (#5521818) Homepage Journal
    ""It's a no-brainer. Anything which lets people pirate more music like this has to be very bad news for the music industry," says a spokesman for Britain's record industry trade association, the BPI."

    Because consumer copying, now equals piracy...

    ...even if you've bought the original music you're transferring.

    AOL (yes I use AOL and I don't care what you have to say on that subject) has on their exit screen an advert for the MusicNet thing.
    It says:

    "MusicNet on AOL: Burn CDs safely and legally with satisfaction guaranteed."

    Erm... since when was burning a CD illegal... or risky (assuming low burn speeds?)

    I mean... safely... is that a threat? :)
  • by Fnkmaster ( 89084 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:29PM (#5521832)
    Mini-DVDs. Like the small format mini-CDRs you can burn with ~200 megs of MP3s. I love my Memorex mini-CDR/MP3 player, for the portability of the discs, which I can easily carry 4 or 5 of in my jacket pocket when I go skiing. If they made mini DVD-R/MP3 players, I could fit my entire music collection on one mini DVD-R. And that would convince me to finally buy a DVD burner.
  • by magnum3065 ( 410727 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:31PM (#5521837)
    This article claims they can fit 30 hours of music on a CD using MiniDisc compression, which from what I've read only provides a 5:1 compression ratio, or about 6.7 hours on an 80 minute disc. In order to compress 30 hours of music into 700MB you'd need to compress it at about 53kbps, which I don't know of any compression format which provides decent audio quality at that rate. Even the claims of 100 hours of music on a DVD (assuming a standard single layer 4.7GB recordable DVD) would only allow for 110kbps which is getting kind of low.
  • Re:In other news... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by ecchi_0 ( 647240 ) <small20.earthlink@net> on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:35PM (#5521861) Homepage Journal
    There's actually a guide on how to do it right here [funmp3players.com]. Seems kinda scary, but then again I haven't done any hardware mods before (but the thought of losing my archos is scary...). It's also possible to upgrade the RAM from the standard 4mb to 8 - reduces skipping as well as HD access. The only link I found for it is dead... but I remember reading about it before.
  • by Captain Beefheart ( 628365 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:45PM (#5521904)
    Y'know, like WalkMan and DiscMan. Give me a DVD-Man with 7 or so CDs worth of MP3s. Now yer talkin. Cheap and reliable (in theory).
  • by M4verick ( 631831 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @10:53PM (#5521939) Homepage
    Indeed... and it in fact makes great corporate sense. If you see the opportunities, attack/compete with your own company - if you don't, someone else will and you will lose all.
  • by kjoonlee ( 226243 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @11:20PM (#5522012)
    Compression is, by definition, dropping the kbps..

    Lossy compression works by dropping the file size in a way that's meant to be difficult to perceive.

    I have no idea what you're trying to say : )
  • Re:Philips incentive (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sfe_software ( 220870 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @11:37PM (#5522065) Homepage
    Philips has come out strongly so far against "crippled" copy protected CDs.

    That only applies to the existing RedBook audio CD format (or Orange book? Whatever). I'm sure they wouldn't care -- and may even support -- new standards supporting DRM techniques.

    What they disapproved of was companies bastardizing a format that Philips helped invent, breaking the established standards and then putting the logo on the disc as though it were compliant.

    This would be like the W3C telling Microsoft that they can't put the term "CSS" on their browser. Microsoft would of course be free to invent a new, similar standard, and the W3C would likely even support it as a new standard. Just so they aren't claiming that it is CSS (not the best analogy, full of holes, but it let me get a jab in at MSIE :)

    Anyway, I don't think Philips is in any way against DRM. As you said, they have no direct interest in it, in either direction, but they *do* have an interest in making money. If that means creating/supporting a new technology that provides for the recording companies' needs (and their support would certainly help the format to take off), then I'm sure they'd be in full support of it.
  • by StarTux ( 230379 ) on Saturday March 15, 2003 @11:50PM (#5522094) Journal
    Its just got to happen:

    Sony sue's itself due to percieved copyright infringement

    Sony uses the DMCA against itself in America.

    StarTux
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 16, 2003 @12:14AM (#5522159)
    "with the resulting disks playable in a to-be-released portable player. I wonder what kind of DRM features the companies will use to cripple each system."
    Sony has beat them to it [storagebysony.com], this beauty is not only a portable CDR/RW drive, a DVD-ROM, but it also plays mp3's from CD/DVD or MemoryStick.

    A single DVD can contain 57 hours of 192kbps mp3, as you can imagine you could just hear the yells from the RIAA 20 blocks away when this beauty was released.
  • by Pyroja ( 616376 ) on Sunday March 16, 2003 @12:33AM (#5522230) Homepage
    My computer has been connected to my stereo for... Well, ever since I had a stereo to hook it up to. Granted, I'm only 16, but still... I can spend a buck on a mini plug-to-RCA cable at Radio Shack and have everything playing through the stereo no problem. And why must it even be hooked up to the stereo? Nowadays with soundcards getting better and better and people going out and buy Klipsch (sp?) 5.1 audio systems just for their PCs, the PC becomes the Hi-Fi. Don't tell me the RIAA is going to go after mini plug-to-RCA cables now...
  • Re:ATRAC3 (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Malor ( 3658 ) on Sunday March 16, 2003 @01:15AM (#5522370) Journal
    I've found the site www.r3mix.net [r3mix.net] to be incredibly useful. If you use their preset standards in LAME (the --r3mix argument), it's nearly impossible to tell an MP3 apart from the real thing. I can sometimes tell on good headphones, if I'm extremely familiar with the music and know EXACTLY what to look for (mostly slight weirdnesses in stereo imaging), but I have to be concentrating intensely to hear any difference.

    It's a good site if you're into MP3. It's out of date now, as the author stopped updating last year sometime, but it's still a valuable resource and a great start on learning how to encode superior-quality MP3s.

  • Re:ATRAC3 (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Feztaa ( 633745 ) on Sunday March 16, 2003 @01:26AM (#5522403) Homepage
    I have the Sony MZ-N707, which is one of the newer models that has MDLP.

    I don't know much of the technical specs of the technology, but I do know this much:

    There are three compression settings when recording, they all sound exactly the same to me, except that on the highest setting, I can easily get 5 hours of music to a single minidisk, and on the lowest setting I can barely get 1 hour of music to a minidisk.

    So, since I can't hear the difference, 1 minidisk == 5 CDs, for me.
  • by grimani ( 215677 ) on Sunday March 16, 2003 @02:10AM (#5522537)
    you people whine way too much about having to buy an album when you only want one track.

    can i buy a titanium ibook case alone, to use as a legal pad holder?

    can i subscribe to cable one channel at a time?

    can i pay for only the interesting lectures at defcon?

    half a serving of fries at mcdonald's?

    half-shot of expresso at starbucks?

    it's a fact of life that not every product is distributed in the way you prefer. it's not a divine mandated right that products must be delivered in the form you demand. ...

    some claim to be willing to pay more for distribution in ways that they prefer. that's a start, but are you willing to pay *enough*?

    if bill gates offered $1 million a track to get his music one track at a time, would the riaa not jump at the opportunity and embrace single-track distribution? if not them, then someone else.

    but when some slashdot drone offers a whopping fifty cents a track, how can we be shocked when nobody bites?

    paying more is not enough. you have to pay enough extra to make it worth their while.

    some guy said he'd gladly pay a whopping FIFTY DOLLARS to buy all the greatest rolling stone hits ever on one uber-compressed cd.

    right. and we still wonder why the riaa see's no reason to embrace this new technology.
  • by jmt9581 ( 554192 ) on Sunday March 16, 2003 @03:04AM (#5522686) Homepage
    No, a president of Sony Consumer Electronics Division said that the Sony Music division needs to develop new business models.

    I'm sure that the Sony Music Division (like most members of the RIAA [riaa.org]) isn't too excited about developing new business models, unless they can maintain their current control of the music industry.

    Here's [com.com] a link about the arguments between the electronic and recording divisions of Sony.
  • Musician's POV (Score:5, Interesting)

    by E-Rock-23 ( 470500 ) <lostprophytNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday March 16, 2003 @04:26AM (#5522884) Homepage Journal
    I'm a singer in an original band. If you ask me, this would be a great way to get music to the masses. We're already savvy enough to deal with the RIAA, and we also feel that P2P filesharing is a great way to get our music out.

    Yes, we own all the copyrights. But we don't mind the music being spread around for free. Four words: Word Of Mouth Advertising. Works wonders for any business. The more people hear it, the more people show up at gigs and buy CDs, T's, etc.

    A device like this is a musician's dream. When you want to move music around, you're limited to the capacity of CD-Rs and RW's. Well, us po' musicians, anyway. LOL. But I digress. A device like this would save us a WORLD of trouble. All band members record whatever they work on, passing it back and forth via handheld devices such as this, and their computers at home.

    The format to record and compress should be open standard, DRM-free codecs, like anything Vorbis. Since I'm the singer, but also something of a geek, I would much prefer Open Source options. Linux-based onboard OS? We know Sony's at least halfway Linux-friendly. They did put out a PS2 kit...

    That'd most certainly be something I'd use. Screw DRM. Oh no, I'm going to pirate my own music! Better stop me before I can! I don't want a whole bunch of encryption crap in my music, just the music codec itself. That's just being a pain in the ass, and you know Microsoft is going to lobby for proprietary control. No, no, a hundred times no. Open Source, DRM-Free.

    Oh wait. I'm sorry. Everything I stand for isn't what the RIAA/MPAA/MS want. This technology gives me more freedom, allows me to absorb some of the cost of getting a break, and makes things easier all-around. It lessens their involvment, and thus lessens the amount of bucks they deserve. That's bad, isn't it.

    I'm just a dumb, awe-struck-by-the-business musician, what do I know...
  • Re:ATRAC3 (Score:4, Interesting)

    by RussGarrett ( 90459 ) <russ.garrett@co@uk> on Sunday March 16, 2003 @06:46AM (#5523101) Homepage
    Yes: alt-preset-standard uses better psychoacoustic models. It should be transparent on the very large majority of samples. There is it's cousin alt-preset-extreme, with an average of about 256kbs. I haven't heard any artifacts with extreme yet.
  • Re:ATRAC3 (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Zarquon ( 1778 ) on Sunday March 16, 2003 @09:12AM (#5523249)
    About 8 months ago I was out shopping for a portable recording system. I had access to a laptop, and to coax spdif. I was looking at minidisc (the quality mikes I was able to borrow generally was mediocre), but noticed that 1) Most decks short of the big stereo console lacked digital outs, and 2) The USB interface was one-way and seriously DRM disabled.

    My solution? I bought an Eiderol UA-5. 96 khz, 24-bit audio. Very nice mic pre's, balanced inputs, optical and coax digital I/Os, phantom power, for about the same price of a new minidisc deck. Coupled with a good mic, superior recording quality, and the 24-bit gives some headroom while setting recording levels.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 16, 2003 @11:34AM (#5523571)
    What kind of sounds did you encode? That actualy makes a big difference right there. And while many of your friends might not be able to tell which is which probably at least half would be able to tell there was a difference if they listened close enough (the problem of course, is that most people don't know what an artificat actualy sounds like...)

    Any half serious Audiophile probably won't be using PC equipment anyways. (Not unless it's a fairly customized system.) Many are either still stuck on Vinyl or SACDs.

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