Tivo HD Released Into the Wild

B.Gud writes "Tivo has launched the new 'Tivo HD' DVR, validating what was learned from retailer leaks last week. The new unit is available for orders and will ship in early August, but the good news is that Tivo is going to activate serial ATA later this year, and that TivoToGo support is coming as well. From the article: 'Suffice it to say that it's the machine we thought it was, loaded with dual tuners, support for two CableCARDs (or one MCard!), a 160GB drive (180 hours recording SD, 20 hours HD), and HDMI. It really makes the Series 3 look weak. Or put another way, it makes the Series 3 into the boutique device it really is.'"

why buy when I can rent?

...or, I can rent an HD DVR from my cable company for the same price Tivo charges per month, with no huge outlay of cash in the beginning. Sure, the experience isn't quite as good, but its more than adequate. And if it dies, I get a replacement, no questions asked.

Re:why buy when I can rent?

Your provider must not be Comcast. Their DVRs suck. How about pressing FF, seeing no change for 5 seconds, then get 10+ seconds of FF that you cannot break out of? You mash the buttons five or six (or ten. or twenty) times and nothing happens. Then, since they were dutifully queued, you may be rewarded with a series of rewinds, fast forwards, etc until the whole thing catches up, invariably leaving you anywhere but where you desired.

Count me as an eager Tivo customer once these new boxes become available.

History - that's why

Crucial to my DVR experience is filtering down the fat stream of 200 cable channels to what I want to see. It's not trivial to wade through all the repeats and shows that I've already viewed. The one thing a cable box DVR is never going to give you is a

Comcast/Motorola DVR is CR*P

I've used TiVo for years. When I got an HD tv I got the comcast/motorola DVR (DCT3416). I've been through 3 boxes so far. The software in the box is horrible. It gets "busy" and doesn't respond to the remote for 30 seconds or more, but it is queuing up all the buttons to replay as soon as it isn't busy. If you fast forward/reverse there is a chance that it will get freeze. Playback sometimes doesn't include sound unless you change the channel and go back. Don't even get me started on how the box handles (crashes is a better word) EAS (emergency signals). I've accumulated a dozen or so software issues with the box that the company says "we know, but there is no scheduled fix date."

And my favorite is that after a couple of months the box will start "slowing down" more and more frequently. The fix is to replace the box -- so says Comcast.

So yes -- I will gladly be purchasing the TiVo HD box just so I can get rid of the piece of junk Comcast/Motorola calls a DVR.

Re:

The TimeWarner SA 8300 is a load of garbage as well. The interface is terrible and it hangs on occasion. It gets confused on HDMI output and blacks the screen when it flakes on HDCP connections. It gets a black screen and becomes nonresponsive a lot, es

Re:

Now...what in the world makes their Tivo branded netword adapter different than any other one? Is there now a special connection on the newer Tivo's...on my old series 2, I just plugged in a Linksys USB wireless....

Its always been a driver support issue.

Re:why buy when I can rent?

Why have sex when you can masturbate? They have the same result, right?

Anyone who's used a brand-name TiVo for more than a few hours will be disgusted by all the DVRs from cable and satellite companies (and MythTV for that matter). TiVo has, for the most part, done DVR *right*.

Re:why buy when I can rent?

Tivo gives customers what customers want (with some compromises). Cable Co DVRs give customers what the Cable Co wants.

Re:why buy when I can rent?

If Tivo really gave customers what they wanted, they wouldn't be collecting and selling clickstreams, they wouldn't be pushing ads into the UI, they'd have a 30-second skip (without a hack) and auto commercial skipping.

They offer only a shinier UI. Functionality and privacy-wise, they're every bit as bad as the cablecos.

Re:why buy when I can rent?

they'd have a 30-second skip (without a hack)

I wouldn't call it a "hack". It's more like a backdoor, easter-egg, or undocumented feature. The only problems are (1) they don't market it and (2) it has to be reset if power is lost (UPS) or the unit otherwise reboots.

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When the Series 3's came out last year there was a window - until January 07 I think - where you could transfer a lifetime service. That was the only reason I bought a series 3. I had a lifetime service on a Series 1 that died (I broke it by modding it)

T

Here's the problem

Virtually all the new services require the cable/phone company's box to get the full range of channels because everyone is using encrypted QAM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAM_tuner) so a standard QAM or ATSC tuner is useless for hi-def.

For example, the Verizon FIOS service has only the local channels unencrypted, so without the box, you can only receive a handful of channels.

It's my understanding the original spec cable card doesn't address the scrambled QAM channels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_card#Physical_ CableCARDs), and the new MCard spec is only due this month. But they simply aren't available, and who knows if they'll actually work when released?

So that fancy new 100" Plasma that supports every standard possible? You still need the box.

All CableCARD does is decrypt (encrypted) QAM.

Read the Wiki [wikipedia.org] article, where it is succinctly stated:

The physical CableCARD that is inserted into the host device is a PCMCIA type II card which handles decryption of video, and making sure that only people that have paid for the channel may view it. This is also known as "conditional access module" function.

Oops

Sorry, I'm an idiot. CableCARD 2.0 will be two-way. MCards are just CableCARDs that can decode multiple channels simultaneously, which is why you only need one with this Tivo.

Compelling... IF you can get CableCARDs

I'd love love love to get one of these, I'd fork over cash right now but I'm unable to get CableCARDs so the device is useless to me.

I live in Phoenix where Cox is the dominant cable provider but like so many other condo/apt. complexes here in the area, I'm locked in to Qwest's TERRIBLE DSL-based TV service. This is presumably based by contract when the complex was built because they paid for "pre-wiring" to each room. As a result, I'm not able to get Cox. This is not a technical issue, Cox is in the complex next to me. Just some scheme thought up by someone that was greedy at Qwest some years ago.

I have DirecTV right now. It would be nice if they provided CableCARDs but nope, they love as much control over their own hardware as possible. I have the DirecTivo (Hughes HR-10) so I'm not too heartbroken but still, the situation sucks. If they'd just build a unit with component in's life would be a little better, no matter how grossly expensive it would be.

Copyright Cable versus Bootleg Pirate Bay?

I use a high end MCE 2005 machine right now for our household, and it works fairly well. Unencrypted HD, 4 tuners total, household distribution (we have 2 boarders who rent from us and utilize their Xbox 360's as remote hubs). System is very stable, the wife can watch all her HGTV and TLC shows, I can download my aXXo first releases, and we're happy. The downside is no HD, because the CableCARD system just doesn't work well with PCs that aren't designed for it. Tried it, failed repeatedly. And I'm a techie.

This sounds to me like a great idea -- there's a ton of HD content over Comcast that I'd probably watch an hour or two a week of, more if I am sick or after a long stretch of work in the winter. I haven't found much HD content available over bittorrent sites, just a few RIPs. But I don't know if I really feel like paying for cable (and then a TIVO monthly bill) for what we get. From a legal perspective, I'd probably buy downloads (PPV online) if they were available and were high quality. But they're not available, so I resort to my own form of PPV. We generally buy movies we download, yet still keep the downloaded version on the PC to watch. I assume Tivos can't accept an XVid Video, so there is a downside.

This leaves a lot to be desired, but it's a step in the right direction. What I want in addition is:

1. Ability to download my own content, or RIP my own content.
2. Ability to remove commercials "real-time": we use a MCE plug-in that works well.
3. Ability to speed up shows without affecting speech tone (plug-in).
4. Remote access capability to a PC or a video game console (preferably both).

Tivo doesn't offer any of these, AFAIK. That's a big limiting factor. Someone needs to step up and provide these services, and their market will blossom.

Just doesn't make sense

I had Series 2 TiVo for about a year and a half. It was OK. I've always questioned the value of the "service" though. What are you getting for 12.95 a month? TiVo is basically TV guide on crack. The fact that I could store my shows on my computer was of almost no value to as the TiVo 802.11 "g" adapter can actually only transmit @ 10 Mb/s because that is the maximum speed of the TiVo. It takes almost as much time to transfer as it does to watch the show. The "intelligent" recording is rarely that. Frequently TiVo fills its drive with a bunch of stuff that is largely uninteresting - that then needs to be deleted. Great more work to make room for shows I *do* want to watch. Of course there is the auto delete feature but it doesn't make room if you want to record something. A real blow to any sort of justification for a "service" fee was the introduction of the "promotion" on the TiVo primary page. The little star has "information" that I might want about say taking an RV trip across America. Ah, no? Then TiVo would add buttons from time to time to some of the user screens advertising things such as the virtues of the Sony Bravia HD TV's. Great, TiVo I'm glad that you have a shiny new marketing platform - but now I want my service fee back! Sometime during the time that I acquired my TiVo and the time that I left, they started the "you get the box with the service fee" deal. It is a bit of a better deal but not that much better. Also, TiVo support is absolutely the worst thing in the world. Navigating around on their site just gives the impression that they want their users and people trolling forums to answer all their customer questions for them.

So I get an HD set, and I'm a cable guy so I'm looking around at what my options are. TiVo wants me to spend 800 bucks on their (then current) HD recorder. Riiiight, not so much. I talk to my provider and here is what they will give me:

HD DVR - 1080i(p?) recording. 160 GB drive. Two tuner record and watch capability. Show listings. No advertisements in the UI. And it comes with HDMI Out and Optical audio out of the box. All for the fabulous low price of 5.95/mo with no money down. As an added bonus, it requires only three cables to hookup to a good HD TV - HDMI, Power Cord and Coax feed from the cable company.

I fail to see how TiVo can possibly remain relevant in the face of this overwhelming opposition. In my mind there is no way that that $300 and a monthly service fee can compete with the Cable guys option. As a personal point of irritation, paying for a service (apart from TV, which is a whole separate conversation) and then being advertised to is simply unacceptable.

My thought for TiVo when I made the switch is that TiVo needs to exit the hardware business ASAP and start licensing their technologies to the cable companies. I imagine a model similar to Direct TV would be good. The cable boxes that I've gotten from RCN and Comcast both could use some UI improvements (RCN is def. not as good as Comcast).

Either that or sell me a box and don't ask me for any more cash.

Additional data brings sense...

All for the fabulous low price of 5.95/mo with no money down.

Maybe I can help shed some light on this for you. $5.95 isn't what every cable company charges. Where I live, Comcast charges $14.95 for the DVR and Verizon charges $12.99. Additionally, Verizon only charges a one-time $3 fee for cable cards. So for a small initial cash outlay I can get a better user interface, higher reliability, fewer restrictions, more features (can your cable box play media files off your PC?) and upgradeability. If Comcast or Verizon charged $5.95/month for an HD DVR it would be a harder decision.

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I can't remember the last time I owned a Tivo that didn't automatically push it's "recommendations" off the drive automatically to make room for things you have scheduled. Not only that but since I've had my Series 3 I have consistently found new and wort

Good timing (maybe)

For various reasons I won't go into here, I still haven't jumped on the HD Bandwagon yet. All my TV's in my house are SD. As luck would have it, the 80GB single tuner Series2 downstairs is starting to die - the hard drive occasionally makes clicking noises, and the screen freezes when this happens. So if that thing bites the dust, I figure I can pick up one of these guys.

Which then raises the question - am I right in thinking that it will work with my current all-SD setup? I figure within the next year I'll be diving into HDTV so it will be nice to have the HD TiVo in place, but will it really work?

Monthly Fee

When I bought the TiVo series 3 I thought I would just use it as a VCR, and not get the monthly subscription. Nope, the unit disables all DVR features unless it is activated. I imagine the new one will do the same... If TiVo gets rid of the subscription and/or lowers it significantly they might be able to hang on. I am using TiVo for now, but after the year is up I am selling the darn thing and getting away from them.

Re:180/20 = 9

SD is roughly 480i. That's 640x480, 60 interlaced frames per second.

640 * 480 * 60 * 0.5 = 9,216,000 pixels/second

720p is 1280x720, 60 full frames per second

1280 * 720 * 60 = 55,296,000 pixels/second

1080i is 1920x1080, 60 interlaced frames per second.

1920 * 1080 * 60 * 0.5 = 62,208,000 pixels/second

720p delivers 6 times as many pixels per second and 1080i delivers almost 7 times as many pixels per second as SD.

720p delivers 3 times as many pixels per [full] frame as SD.

not quite

>SD is roughly 480i. That's 640x480, 60 interlaced frames per second.

>640 * 480 * 60 * 0.5 = 9,216,000 pixels/second

Are you using SD for Svideo or "standard" definition. If standard definition, you're *way* off.

NTSC has 525 lines 30 times a second, interlaced for 60 half frames. That creates about 400-450 usable lines--this doesn't create a big error.

However, the pixel limit is limited by the color subcarrier at 3.58 MHz. Color is handled by phase shifts in that signal, so the limit is around 7.16 pixels/second--from which you have to pay for horizontal and vertical retrace.

Remember the purplish tint to Apple ][ and ][+? That's because they were pushing against the color subcarrier. (The rev 8 [?] and later motherboards, including the //e, shut off the subcarrier during text). They managed extra colors (8 bits produced six pixels in six colors) by slightly shifting the pixels in time. Anyway, given the amount of overscan on color televisions at the time, this gave a 280 pixel/line limit--but this did leave space to the left & right (though not much on most televisions of the time). Today, you could fit somewhat more.

PAL and SECAM give similar results.

hawk

Also, at the rate you quote, there would be problme

Re:180/20 = 9

Standard def is 480i = 640x480 pixels but only half every "pass". 640x480/2 = 153,600 pixels. Top of the line HD is 1080p = 1920x1080 pixels with all of them every pass. 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels. 2,073,600/153,600 = 13.5 times as many pixels. Factor in the compression and then add the overhead and 9:1 disk usage isn't all that unreasonable.

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There's already a backdoor to enable the external Serial ATA (eSATA) on the current Series3 model. People have hooked up a single 750 GB eSATA drive to the existing 250 GB internal SATA drive for a 1 TB TiVo (in metric units).

I'm thinking about getting an