
A 140GB CD-ROM? 155
Pete Brubaker writes "PCExtremist.com is running a story about some clever individuals that figured out how to layer data on a CDROM to achieve storage capacities 200 times over conventional CDROM's. Thats more than 30 times the capacity of a double sided, double layer DVD. "
Re:I hate to think I'm the first... (Score:1)
It doesn't seem like there would be any problem to just print whatever you felt like on the top side of the disc. I don't know how reflections from the back of the printing surface would affect the process though (although they could use a non-reflective material).
All in all, I don't think labeling the discs will be a problem.
In fact, the discs should also be able to be used upside down, provided the motor and circutry are smart enough to realize that they need to work backwards - rotating the disc CW versus CCW or whatever.
Re:I hate to think I'm the first... (Score:5)
MS, maybe? (Score:1)
Re:Blue Laser CD-Writing (Score:1)
Re:No to encryption on new storage media (Score:1)
Would it be legal to set up a web site a la CDDB, but which dished out DVD decryption keys or DIVX viewing keys to all comers? I think not. You would be shut down real quick.
What you seem to be saying is that, seeing as today we can crack & work around such schemes with some trouble, in the near future it will be even easier. This is an appealing notion, but only holds if the movie & music industries do not continue to try to improve thier daft encryption schemes, which benefit them but not consumers. Unless hit over the head, they will do so, which is why it is important for the makers of new media not to support them in this.
PAP-DVDs and Holo-CDs (Score:1)
The PAP-DVDs will use a thin layer of modified polymers while Holo-CDs [bayer.com] (due out in 2005 with a said storage of 1500 GB) should have a layer of about 1 mm.
All of this is apparently part of the National Storage Industry Consortium [nsic.org]. Unfortunately the access to the MORE project (Multiple Optical Recording Enhancements) is passworded.
Anyone got any more info?
________________________________
If encryption is outlawed, only
Re:No to encryption on new storage media (Score:2)
As in, you don't really need to hammer out all of the possible video formats, as long as there's a way to describe the format to the player (a codec) supplied on the disc or accessible on the net, etc.
This is like a player which understands MPEG files getting a disc with an AVI (for example) on it. The disc could include the codec, or a URL to download it. The player could either cache this codec in NVRAM, or simply load it everytime it was needed.
As for the legality... pretty much everything involving copyrights is now illegal, or will be as of the new year, in the USA. The Digital Millenium act really screwed you guys over.
But, even so, if it was designed properly and players had a large secret key that they could use for authentication, yes, you could run a system where the player not only downloaded the actual decryption system, but also an encrypted (for its secret key only) key which would allow viewing of the disc.
But, I think that any form of authentication being needed to view a copyrighted work for which you paid to be able to view, is evil. It's like DIVX... you have the right to view the content only as long as the company says you can, in the way they want, and while they are in business.
Fluorescence natural aging (Score:1)
I wonder about expected life time of the fluorescent material, especially under the office/home lighting, and also about natural aging.
Someone mentioned "organic dye". Could someone knowledgeable add some profile on that?
Enough for Office and Win2005. (Score:1)
Injured geek wins against Mattel, Mattel still retaliates! [sorehands.com]
Re:You aren't the first... (Score:2)
The cover makes labeling really handy....
Jedi Hacker (Apprentice) and Code Poet
DVD on crack? (Score:1)
Re:$lashdot (Score:1)
And just how do you propose that they keep it less political? Seems to me that it is the readers that are bringing the heavy political slant, not the editors. If you don't allow the postings, then it isn't a
A few comments: (Score:1)
Second, arstechnica [arstechnica.com] has a follow up article about a british venture capital company that's working on something even better [keele.ac.uk]: think multiple terabytes on a single cd!
"God does not play dice with the universe." -Albert Einstein
Re:Really only 4GB in theory (Score:1)
Moderate: Redundant (Score:1)
Re:Moderate: Redundant (Score:1)
Here here!! Ain't that the friggin truth!
No Subject (Score:3)
LINK [c-3d.net]
It's the first one down - FMD ROM (Read Only Memory) Disk... Pretty cool how it's clear, huh?
Re:Really only 4GB in theory (Score:2)
Now all it needs is copy protection! (Score:2)
It won't be ready for prime time until they have.
And believe me, I'm sure they're already working on it!
Re:I hate to think I'm the first... (Score:1)
Well what else are supposed to do with an AOL CD? You aren't suggesting people are actually dumb enough to use AOL, are you?
--------
"I already have all the latest software."
How much $$$ ? (Score:1)
Sounds great, but does anybody have any idea as to how much they will cost?
There does not seem to be any info on their website [c-3d.net] and I can't think of a similar product to give me a price guide.
woah (Score:1)
The taco hell hypothesis.. (Score:2)
Huh? (Score:1)
Why only 4GB? (Score:1)
Gads... imagine if this technology took hold (and I can't see why on Earth it wouldn't!)... MS could even _further_ bloat their software.
--Corey
They should get more layers before releasing (Score:1)
We don't need to upgrade and then find out that our 10 Layer system is old hat and they now have a 25 or more layer system.
(rambling now)
The credit card idea would be great for things like a Gameboy. GameBoy Riven? 10 Gig. On a Z80 I'm guessing you'd have to bank switch your bank switching registers
Maybe the next generation Handhelds would be better.
I guess if the CreditCard reader device could be made small enough you could make a interface cart for handhelds. I'm not much for MP3s but the game potential is huge.
I wonder how small a reader can be?
No to encryption on new storage media (Score:1)
Re:$lashdot (Score:1)
Slashdot without the politics is like a burrito without the peppers. borrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiingggggggggg.....
Whatsamatta son, can't handle a little jalapeno in your life??
Slashdot is ya wake up call! Stop hitting the snooze button and get up!
Re:Uses for large ROM devices, social implications (Score:1)
This is very interesting... do you have a link to an article or something about this?
three words: (Score:1)
Final Fantasy IX
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Re:Durability issues (Score:1)
Re:Uses for large ROM devices, social implications (Score:1)
'Stiff Unix' (Score:1)
This is the first time I've heard of this term, but the concept is quite old. At my old university I first suggested that binaries and config files be put on a cdrom, and user space be put on a hard disk.
Literally speaking, it would be easy to link a ton of files in
Of course the problem is there was no cd writer that we knew of, back then, and then the cd is mounted after the init process, so there was a problem. Now that I come to think of it I am going to go home tonight and work on a 'stiff linux' solution myself.....hmmmmmmm......!
Re:Question? (Score:1)
Re:Question? (Score:2)
1. The maximum is 18 Gb, though you'd be pressed to find a DVD-ROM that actually used it.
2. While they are physically identical in size, there are numerous differences, the largest being their use of the UFS and micro-UFS filesystems on the discs instead of the standard ISO. DVD also uses a slightly different plastic, can support multiple data layers on a single DVD, and has a much higher data density.
3. The speed is nearly identical. I beleive a 6X DVD-ROM device is comparable to a 48X CDROM in terms of speed, but I may be off a little.
Corrections? Please do!
That sounds like a variation on the "holostore"... (Score:1)
Maybe they have it right this time- it'd be cool to have that sort of storage at reasonable price points.
Re:Moderate: Redundant (Score:2)
Bill Gates, of course, is a prime example of this. If there's an article about Bill G or Microsoft here, some people seem to think they can turn their brains off and simply substitute all the S's to $'s to make a good post.
People, please think before you post. Just because someone has money doesn't automatically make them rotten. Just because a company has resorted to mean and soon-to-be-judged-illegal tactics doesn't mean that every single product they have ever made is buggy, slow and a security hole. Objectivity, please!
Re:'Stiff Unix' (Score:2)
A simple way to determine which files need RW access would be to snapshot a RW HD partition of 640M, use it in a relitivly static way for a few days, and then compare the file checksums against the snap. (OC, there is probably a file monitor that does it too, I just don't know of one!)
Then the real question is how to provide for the RW space; Do we use symlinks, or a hybrid overlay mechanism?
Clearly Patentable (Score:1)
The technology combined with DeCSS should have RIAA scared straight.
Re:MS, maybe? (Score:2)
One small correction; DVD obsolescence (Score:1)
And as commentary at Tasty Bits From the Technology Front [tbtf.com] points out, the most outstanding claim about FMD drives is the 1 gigabyte per second read rates, a full 200x faster than a 32x CD-ROM, and 40x faster than a 10,000 RPM hard disk. In comparison, capacity only improves 25x over the 5.2 GB DVDs.
Personally, I find the large capacities C-3D demonstrates just reinforce my perception that buying into DVD technology is just setting yourself up for obsolescence once higher-res HDTV versions of videos and movies become available on post-DVD media like C3D's in a few years (probably more securely next time though!
--LP
Re:Why only CDROM density? (Score:1)
I haven't seen a slashdot story on HD-Rom yet... (Score:1)
sounds elite, but... (Score:1)
An obvious question (Score:2)
Re:Why only CDROM density? (Score:1)
What is that glowing thing?
That? It's just my MP3 collection.
Cartridge? (Score:1)
Will it ever survive? (Score:1)
So I'm wondering when this type of technology will be available on the market, if ever? What sort of costs will be involved, and how long until the price will drop to sensible levels?
Does this perhaps use a violet laser diode? (Score:1)
Now, this 140 gb/10 layers = 14 gb per layer disk is announced - is this the first of the upcoming wave of violet laser products? I'm just waiting for a violet laser pointer
Re:now that's a neat idea (Score:2)
Pretty cool idea too, but I'm hoping that by opening up the submission queue to many eyes, it should mean that the queues stay short (or can handle more submissions) and each queue moderator spends less time on wading thru them..
Just think, it's like fixing bugs of a journalistic type rather than a technical type, and as we all know, with thousands of eyeballs all bugs are shallow
Your Working Boy,
Re:oh give it a rest (Score:2)
To prevent this, perhaps there should be a separate 'meta-slashdot' site where submissions are ranked by slashdot contributors (say, selected based on karma, instead of arbitrarily by the high priests of
If I could get my hands on the current running
Your Working Boy,
Make it like a minidisc (Score:1)
This doesn't... (Score:2)
Re:Question? (Score:1)
Stephen King's The Stand [208.49.168.139] miniserie DVD is the first double-layer double-sided disc.
But manufacturing resources are still rare for DVD18. Heck, production capacity is already streched for RDSL...
DVD Cartell (Score:1)
Something else it might give us (Score:1)
Re:'Stiff Unix' (Score:1)
Re:Why only CDROM density? (Score:1)
I don't know about you, but I think that would probibly look too cool for words.
What is that glowing thing?
Do not look into the laser with your remaining good eye.....
Re:too easy (Score:1)
Damaged, or stained?
now a true outlet for De-CSS (Score:1)
Now I can hack up my DVD collection, and have a place to store them. Only this should fit about 20 different movies.... hah just like my mp3 collection.
: )
now that's a neat idea (Score:2)
Maybe at last we could see an end to all this "this article stinks!" nonsense.
Executive summary. (Score:2)
How it works is this:
The CD consists of multiple layers which are individually pressed in the usual CD way, then stuck together afterwards. The layers have different fluorescence frequencies, and a single frequency laser stimulates all the fluorecent layers at once. If I read their website right, the pressing process makes the usual pits in the plastic of each layer, and a fluorescent material is then put into the pits. At any rate, the data is encoded by having different thicknesses of fluorescent material for ones and zeros.
Because the fluorescent layers and the intervening glue layers all have identical optical characteristics from the point of view of the laser beam, and because the ones and zeros also look virtually identical to the beam, the medium appears almost completely homogenous, and doesn't scatter or refract the laser, so only the spot you're interested in gets illuminated, and the beam remains parallel right through the medium. This is what allows the highest possible spot densities, and the very large numbers of layers.
The writable version of this probably /will/ need multiple frequency lasers, to cause photochemical changes in each layer separately.
Re:I hate to think I'm the first... (Score:1)
Really only 4GB in theory (Score:2)
Re:Imagine if Audio CD format was just coming out (Score:1)
Of course the artists would play their fingers down to little nubs and scream themselves hoarse trying to fill up these disks.
I did a little math. In MP3 format, it'd contain over 98 DAYS worth of music. In straight CD-Audio format, it'd be about 9-10 days of music.
Imagine only needing 4 disks to get you through a year of solid music! {SHUDDER}
(NOTE: This is using the HD companies' 1000= formula)
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Re:woah (Score:1)
Re:One small correction; DVD obsolescence (Score:1)
don't sweat it.
slashdot already ran this (Score:2)
Prototype 150GByte Read-Only Disk Demonstrated [slashdot.org] by Hemos on 01:56 AM October 5th, 1999 EAS 73
Blue Laser CD-Writing (Score:1)
~TruPoet
Re:Blue Laser CD-Writing (Score:1)
Re:woah (Score:2)
Graphics are HUGE. Movies are even bigger.
When everyone is playing games in 2048x1536x32b, and games have to either have tons of textures, or in the case of top-down games, tons of distinct landscapes, we'll be looking at 140GB and complaining that it's not enough.
A flight-sim could use this already. As could a decent off-road driving game.
And as it becomes available, people will use it, precalculating huge data structures to save themselves the trouble of doing it on the fly. (It's not always a bad thing... Quake's BSP trees are precalculated.)
140 hours of video could allow for a kick-ass interactive movie. Imagine if there was actually room to store alternate paths for a bunch of different decisions.
I've had the idea of, when space allows, including a map of all roads in North America (all roads mapped in electronic format at any rate) and not only pictures of actual building near the road, but a rough map of the land nearby. Imagine a driving game like Cannonball Run, where you aren't looping around some dull track, but the game starts in one city and ends in another, and all paved roads in both are in the game. Combine that with textures 3d models of the main buildings and landscaping that you can see from the road. Then further imagine you had the ability to go cross country, cutting across fields as a shortcut.
If storage wasn't a problem, the modelling/texture mapping could be handled with a GPS, a decent laser range finder, a high res digital camera, and some software. Toss it into a van and drive slowly around the area. The GPS knows where you are, space around you would be mapped with the laser, and buildings photographed for the textures. Simply things like light posts could even be identified and replaced with stock models.
It's beyond or capabilities now, but I bet in five years, EA Sports will be seriously considering it.
Re:Moderate: Redundant (Score:1)
Be prepared to pay your taxes (Score:1)
Grr.
Ho humm (Score:1)
Later
Durability issues (Score:2)
Furthermore, are these going to have a "wrong side"? CD ROMs are vulnerable to "media scratches" because they only put a very thin coat over the reflective media on the top side of the cd. I wonder what a media scratch would do to a multi-layered approach like this. How well are the layers bonded to each other? Can chipping occur due to weak bonding?
Oh well. Just seemed like appropriate questions to ask... If the technology is durable enough that you can use it without walking on eggshells (and isn't horrifically expensive), this could turn out really kewl.
--Fesh
I hate to think I'm the first... (Score:2)
HOW DO YOU LABEL IT.
I look around my place and I have various CDR's and CDRW's with backup information, install programs, etc. They all have labels - they all have labels so i can tell what's on the disc, since I can't tell by shining my laser pointer at it, and since I don't want to have to put each one in my new drive to find out. I may be jumping the gun here, but the pictures and the article sure make it look like the thing is totally see through... but i regress.
oh give it a rest (Score:1)
Re:oh give it a rest (Score:1)
-mark
Re:I hate to think I'm the first... (Score:1)
layering--old idea (Score:2)
The tricky part is cost. A laser that is tunable to many wavelengths is likely to be more expensive than one that only does one or two. Creating the media is also going to be more expensive.
Question? (Score:1)
#1. How much can a DVD hold? (lots yeah, but how much)
#2. What is the difference between a dvd and a cd?
#3. This shows how fast super CD (or whatever its called) can access info, but how fast can a DVD player? (ie are you really gaining a useful meadium or just a big storage device)
Thoughts?
Re:Cartridge? (Score:1)
Sure. But that cartridge would double or triple the price of the media.
Here's hoping that their at least as resistant as standard CD's.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Just build your own chip plant (Score:2)
Re:layering--old idea (Score:1)
Re:Why only CDROM density? (Score:1)
Re:Durability issues/Physical background (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Make it like a minidisc (Score:1)
Tunable lasers (Score:1)
Actually, most lasers are tunable to some degree; the emission bands that they use aren't perfectly sharp, and adjusting the geometry of the cavity and/or putting in a filter lets you select the final frequency that results. Lasers sold as "tunable" lasers are lasers that have very broad emission bands, with some piece of adjustable frequency-selective hardware (like a diffraction grating) to tune it with.
Dye lasers are the most significant example of this that comes to mind.
I've never heard of DVD drives using tunable lasers, so I'm not sure where the messages on the subject are coming from. If I understand correctly, they actually adjust the focal depth of the optical head (or just move the head up and down) to select the layer that they want. (DISCLAIMER: It's been a while since I read up on DVD technology).
Re:No to encryption on new storage media (Score:2)
So, as long as there was a filesystem on there, the format of the files is fairly unimportant as long as it's not proprietary.
Then if the disk needed a specific codec, it could simply ship with it, or the computer could grab it off the net.
And a general purpose computer would be able to understand that a raw image at 128khz, 64b is the same basic thing as 44khz, 16b, and use the same codec with different parameters, thus pleasing audiophiles who demand every last irrelevant bit be the same, and pleasing techies to whom a VBR MP3 is more appropriate.
On a slightly offtopic rant...
It pisses me off when people demand uncompressed audio of incredibly high data rates. Sure, some piece of music might benefit from having that fidelity at one point, but at all others, it's wasted. The appropriate design would use whatever bandwidth was available and use lossy compression. If that signal needs to be reproduced, then do so, but don't waste the bandwidth by representing all data equally when some is obviously more important.
For any digital lossless compression, a smart encoder could produce a better representation of the original by encoding a higher quality initial signal in the same space.
Re:I hate to think I'm the first... (Score:1)
Not only would this reduce scratches, but dust and fingerprints would be minimized as well.
I kinda wish DVD's had such a cover.
flourescent dies young (Score:1)
are these disks going to last more than a few months?
Re:I hate to think I'm the first... (Score:1)
Two options.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Re:How much $$$ ? (Score:1)
Re:flourescent dies young (Score:1)
are these disks going to last more than a few months?
Since these disks have 112Gbits per layer, each bit is only going to be illuminated a 112,000,000,000th of the time.
PS: Nice pun.
Hey, what gives? (Score:2)
http://www.osopinion.com/Opinions/ColinCordner/
Re:Durability issues (Score:2)
Does it matter what layer the data's on? If it makes things seem different, just think of it as all being on one layer, that if you scratch, you lose.
The solution is really simple. Keep redundant backups. Don't trust the only archive of data to a single piece of media, just as you shouldn't leave all your eggs in a single basket.
Why only CDROM density? (Score:3)
Of course, it isn't as simple as that, because DVD uses a tigher wavelength to squeeze the data closer together. Still, in theory, the idea is sound.
I guess it's a lot like manufacturing hard drives. You can add space by increasing the density on a platter, and you can add space by increasing the number of platters.
Damn! I've been throwing those away for years (Score:2)
Uses for large ROM devices, social implications (Score:5)
Cost of writeable media and drives isn't listed; 10GB conventional magnetic disks currently cost ~$100, so this may not be particularly superior for backups, but it's still in the interesting range. They say the media cost should be similar to current CD/DVD, which may be realistic for mass-produced storage. They also don't say what kind of resources you need to produce the high-density ROM versions - is it only useful for large production runs, or can it make sense for one-offs?
The US government is said to have recently ordered a 100,000 disk RAID system, capable of holding a petabyte of data, presumably for activities like archiving Usenet, the web, stock market transactions, etc. This technology means that archiving large quantities of data becomes much more convenient for regular people, and for corporations that - remember when a Terabyte of data was huge? (and before that, a GB?) What can you do if you can archive all of your company's transactions, designs, etc., and reproduce them cheaply? How do you design policies on information retention when it's cheap and hard to make sure things got thrown away?
This could be interesting for security - having large WORM drives that are fast enough to run an operating system off, with write-once capability for log files, lets you run much more secure web servers, because it's hard to trash WORMs. How does this affect operating system design? A friend of mine did some work a few years back called "Stiff Unix", trying to find out what parts of the file system space Unix needs to have writeable, and what parts can be ROM. I think this was on *BSD; it'd be interesting to see how Linux can react to this environment.