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Linux Support for Riva TNT2 110

Posted by Hemos from the rock-out dept.
Brian the Wise writes "Just got email confirmation from NVidia that the new Riva TNT2 will have full X and 3D support under Linux. They should be announcing it on their web site in about 2 weeks time. All we need now are our Quake3 for Linux CDs."
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Linux Support for Riva TNT2 More

Linux Support for Riva TNT2

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  • anyone know when? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If there is no X support directly you could always use the fbdev server on top of vesafb until there is support. I did that with my G200 for a week or so until SuSe released XFCom_Matrox.

    /AE

  • Don't rely solely on tomshardware (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Read as many reviews as you can on this subject, don't rely solely on tomshardware, who was receiving nVidia sponsorship recently until there was uproar about this. Most of the reviews I've read say that the TNT2 produces a better image, but the V3 smokes it in speed.

  • Linux 3D architecture (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Precision Insight is also working on a common 3D graphics card driver framework that all current and future 3D cards can use to get quick and easy supported under XFree86 4.x without much hassle.
  • This is going to start a bad trend, when you people get all excited about *binary-only* drivers you are taking away what sets linux apart from the rest. By supporting them you are telling other hardware vendors that they dont have to release specs, crappy no-source sulutions are not good enough.

    You are making a huge mistake by supporting crap like this.

  • s/one/won (Score:1)

    by Crow- ( 35 )
    I can spell... really I can
  • I'm sorry but binary-only can never be a good thing. I dont care if it is the most competitive market in the world, you *cannot* gain enough information from reading specs that you would be able to reverse engineer the silicon on the chip. It's just corporate paranoia.

    If someone released specs they would gain more in users than they would lose by giving out the specs.
  • here it is for the 3rd time

    http://lists.openprojects.n et/mailman/listinfo/g200-dev/A? [openprojects.net]

  • Doubt it (Score:1)

    by Crow- ( 35 )
    They have already stated they wont be releasing specs or source code for the 3d part. So you wont see any support in mesa.
  • Of course, PI's driver architecture isn't the entire answer. Even with no rendering functions Mesa isn't blazingly fast... so some work is probably needed on Mesa as well in order to get it to work....


    /Andreas
  • I mailed them in december 98 I think, and asked them about the rumors circulating about Linux support.(Some sort of library that would allow you to use the TNT under Linux)

    I recieved a response that the rumors were correct, but that I wouldn't find anything on their website until it was ready.

    /Andreas
  • In fact, in the long term, using Precision Insight's work might be the best idea.

    Until the time of that release I guess that GLX is probably a good solution that isn't going to be extremely hard to port to PI's direct rendering architecture.

    /AE
  • Posted by Cable4096:

    Yes I would like to see more than just VooDoo 2 support for Linux in the area of 3D cards. As an owner of an Intergraph Intense 3D 100 card, I wish it had Linux/X-Free86 Drivers.

    I might have to downgrade to a 2M PCI based CIrrus Logic or S3 based video card, how revolting!
  • "An assertion made, but never proven."

    I bought a G200 because Matrox promised to release their specs. (I unfortunately gave in and bought a Riva TNT three days before the spec release, thinking that Matrox had made a hollow promise.) I now regret that... Turns out the Windows OpenGL problems I was having that caused me to finally ditch the G200 were non-card-specific.

    I bought a Voodoo because it was supported under Linux.

    And it's been proven that giving out specs won't hurt a company.

    Note that the Voodoo/Voodoo2 were nearly identical in software, yet the V2 had 3-4 times the performance. All that was required to allow the V2 to function under Linux with the V1 drivers was the alteration of 2 bytes in the chipset-detection codes.

    Later, someone discovered that an ancient GLX module for the Matrox Millenium worked quite well on a G200. Talk about a generation gap!

    Now, it's pretty much public that the TNT2 is a huge increase in performance with NO CHANGES TO THE INTERFACE WHATSOEVER!
  • Who the hell is Brian the Wise? Personally, I'd rather see TNT support so I can play quake with my card under linux. Until that happens, nVidia will not be getting any more of my money.
  • You don't feel insulted because you are assuming too much. I'll wager they were referring to 2D-only, which has happenned in one form or another. You were probably referring to 3D, the ability to play quake under linux. As a TNT owner myself, I don't think this will happen soon. My next card will most probably be one with MesaGL support (3dfx). I rushed into the decision for this TNT and am regretting it. nVidia needs to realize that there is a fairly substantial group that will not buy their chip if it continues it's current path.
  • As someone that all ways seems to buy the wronge card.... I suggest that you get a 3dfx. I purchased a TNT card when the first x-server patch came out. I was hoping that they would be allowing 3d support to begin on the TNT. I was very wrong... At every turn nvida insulted the Linux community... With e-mails stating how they did not feel that it was worth supporting Linux. And that keeping there specs secret was more important then there customer needs.

    My advice is to purchase the video card that has the best support for linux... Too me that looks like the 3dfx chip cards.

    I will probly purchase a new Video card some time after Quake3 comes out. I do not think I will be purchasing a TNT2. At least not until they support the TNT and TNT2 under Linux.

    time will tell.
  • I like Open Source drivers too, but this is still a Good Thing.

    The 3D market is really competitive right now, and NVIDIA is in first place. Every graphics chipset mfg in the world has them in their sights. It would be hard for anyone to make a _rational_ case that releasing source code that will expose their IP is in their best interest at this time. 2D is another matter; everyone has a fast 2D card now days, and there is no harm in releasing 2D specs, contrary to what some chipset mfg's seem to believe.

    I know that this doesn't fit into the Free Software concept very well, but there are cases in the Real World where Free Software just doesn't make sense. It's easy to be a idealist, but much more difficult to come up with a compromise that will work for everyone involved.

    This is a good move by NVIDIA (if it's true), and I'm looking forward to my new TNT. :-)

    TedC

  • So what you're saying is that they might lose more customers than they gain by releasing the specs.

    No, what I'm saying is that by opening their specs, NVIDIA would expose IP to their competitors, and lose customers indirectly by allowing their competitors to produce better products. This would be a good thing for customers in the short term, but not so good for NVIDIA, and I really can't expect them to act in a way that's not in their own best interest. We're all human, after all.

    TedC

  • OK, now, which one is better?

    The Voodoo 3 has 16-bit external rendering, a 16-bit z-buffer, and 16 MB RAM, while the TNT2 has 32-external rendering, a 24-bit z-buffer, and 32 MB RAM. The TNT is obviously better based on specs, although you shouldn't have much trouble finding an old Amiga evangelist who is willing to try and talk you into the notion that 16-bit is better. :-)

    Check out tomshardware.com for reviews.

    TedC

  • Will it work on a non-i386 platform? Or on a kernel that's been modified so that standard modules won't load?

    Nothing has been released yet (or even officially announced), so who can say?

    TedC

  • I just wrote them an email a couple weeks ago asking them if they have any intention of releasing the specs or at least a Linux driver for the TNT. Never heard a peep back from them though.

  • I hope that they do the Right Thing(tm) and release sources.


    Binary-only is fine for those of us who use RedHat on i386 which seems to be a sort of reference platform in some ways, but I'd like to be able to make use of that hardware on other PCI machines (are there non-Intel AGP machines?) or on BSD boxes.


    Matthew.

  • Wee!! (Score:1)

    by Q*bert ( 2134 )
    With better 3d support and more games I could delete my windows partition for EVER! ;)))))

    Ya know, I hear this sentiment a lot. I always wonder, why don't people just scrape up $120 and buy a Nintendo, or another gaming console of their choice? You can buy adaptors to display to your monitor, so not having a TV is not a problem. For me, it is certainly cheaper to buy an N64 than to get another hard drive (since mine is small) and a new graphics card, and then pay for Microsoft's flagshit product. I guess if you were planning to rip off games rather than buying them this might be cheaper in the long run, but who wants to do that? The newer and more exciting game companies are on shaky enough financial footing as it is, without having people use their products without pay.

    Besides, given the choice between closed-source software and hardware, I'll always choose the latter. It's better-tested and more robust, and just as configurable. ;)
    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product

  • What about us poor saps with the TNT1?
  • Right now the basic question is: Does GLX work under Linux? If it doesn't nVidia has two choices:
    • Make GLX work which is the best long term solution but may not be a feasible short term project. Best in this case is defined as best for the Linux community, not necessarily best for nVidia.
    • Roll their own drivers. Quick and dirty maybe, but to get them out in '2 weeks time' it may be required. This may also be the best for nVidia.


    I'm sure IP comes into play here. I'm not sure how far along GLX is and whether IP would have to be released to the development community to support TNT2 with GLX. Basically when GLX was proprietary to SGI NDA agreements could be reached with the company itself. Though shall not release proprietary information or we'll hit you with a really big stick! This doesn't work as well in a distributed work environment.
  • They were promising something similar to 3Dfx's Glide to be released for Linux early this year.

    That is, a binary-only library that sits between the hardware and Mesa/X
  • Neither has 3DFX. AFAIK that goes through Glide, which is a binary-only interface to the Voodoo hardware.
    --
    Aaron Gaudio
    "The fool finds ignorance all around him.
  • What exactly is 3D support? Will Nvidia be adding to the contributions of the Mesa folks? Promising 2D support in the form of source code for groups like xfree86 is one thing. In Linux, 3D is a different animal.
  • Whee, I've been holding out on buying a 3D card, since it's the fastest improving hardware right now... it looks like in only a few months I'll have more options for cards that work under Linux than I'll know what to do with :)

    So does anyone have any speculations on what the Matrox G400 will have in store for us? It's been on their website for quite a while now, but I haven't heard talk about it anywhere else...

  • No. You're thinking of the Metabyte PGC process. AFAIK, nobody has yet announced support for PGC. Metabyte has said that their system will work on any current graphics system, not just TNT.

    Not that I'd turn my nose up at a PGC TNT2. Just that I don't expect it to be coming out on the initial crop of TNT2 and TNT2 Ultra cards.


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!

  • I wouldn't hold my breath on this... I have emails
    from nVidia stating they were going to release
    TNT hardware specs from October or November 1998
    and that still hasn't materialized... so I'll
    believe it when I see functioning software...
  • If any of you are AMD 3Dnow users, you'll remember how Nvidia promised 3Dnow-optimized driver support for the TNT "out of the box". Now, over 12 months later, 3Dnow support has still not materialized (Don't even get me started about their "Detonator" drivers which did, and then Nvidia admitted didn't have 3Dnow opts).

    The moral of the story is to adopt a wait and see attitude. If they make good on their promises, then by all means go out and support those companies and show them our buying power. But, wait and have them "put up" before going out and spending dollars and feeling swindled...
  • I think you're likely to see source for 2D and binary-only for 3D. It's a good start, anyway.
  • The Mesa webpage mentions that Riva support may be coming soo - I personally run off of a Tnt from when I used to run in winblows, and now find that any GL I want is software accelerated :( Has anyone heard whether or not Mesa might end up including Tnt or 128 support?
  • I'm pleased to hear they're close to releasing. I don't know any details, but I know they've been working on it for a while and they wanted to release full OpenGL for it.

    I guess this and Q3 mean I need to get my butt in gear and get the Banshee/V3 stuff out! :-) Actually my time between jobs has helped progress it greatly.

    - |Daryll

  • I agree with your point, but the TNT2 is an AGP-only card. Only x86 chipsets have the AGP slot. Plus, no one would ever use it on something slower than a P2, so one would assume Nvidia would compile the driver with PGCC or at least heavily optimized egcs
  • 3dfx has the best Linux support? How about that Banshee X-server?

    Matrox has the best Linux support, because they're the only ones to have released their specs. Hopefully they'll do the same with the G400, or it'll be similar enough not to matter.
  • I use the SVGA server for TNT which gives no acceleration. Unless a release changed that one or 2 months ago, it means there is no accelration for TNT which means TNT + Win9x should run faster.
    And indeed I find moving windows in X is slower than with win9x / D3D. But that's just the overhead of X ?
  • Yup, go to the frontpage of http://www.clanworld.org. In an excerpt from an irc log from EFNET Zoid (of id) software mentions the glx driver under development at Nvidia.
  • I've seen emails from nVidia representatives too, and I have to agree with Brian - wait 2 weeks and read the web site - and just as a hint, it's not a good idea to base purchasing decisions upon pure speculation which is all we have right now.

    From what I've read in those emails, nVidia are committed to decent Linux support, and in 2 weeks we'll be getting the full story.

    Furthermore, stop quibbling over binary-only versus open source. Everybody _knows_ open source is better, but alienating a company that provides binary-only (like 3dfx currently do) is not going to persuade them to make their drivers open source - in fact, they may simply choose to just remove the binary-only support for the minority platforms and then everyone is screwed. Binary-only support is better than no support at all.

    Of course, no support at all means nobody in our minority group will be purchasing their hardware which will make a minor dint in their pockets. But many companies can take that especially if it means less hassles.
  • i am getting my diamond viper v770 as i type at pricewatch. $250 for a card that beats will beat the shit out of my current SiS6326 chipset. i consider it a bargain.

    not that SiS is a bad chipset but the driver's buggy. never left beta when SuSe handed it over to Xfree86. and the most frustrating part is that under windows it is fine and even accelerated, even though most games can't look horrible. I should have waited instead of buying the first AGP card that was available in my price range. but not anymore. Q3 and HalfLife should look pretty good on my screen now.

    if only I could afford getting a new monitor too. this interlaced shit is pissing me off.

    p.s. i hope nVidia considers implementing the DVD-decoding driver for linux as well, since all TNT2 based cards seem to have the capability. that would be sweet. and ELSA i think is even going to have a video-in in their Erazor III (also tnt2 based).

    Wouldn't it be great if you could get a TV-in/TV-out/SVGA-out/2D/3D/accelerator/DVD/decode r/128MB card which was integrated with a sound interface? I could finally get rid of two cards for one bundle of complete multimedia experience.
  • anyone know when I will actually be able to have X working on a tnt2? i mean does it make sense to go ahead and buy one as soon as they come out? apparently they should be in stores by like next week, and getting one before summer would be sweet!!!
  • anyone is going to confirm that? i was thinking of upgrading my video card, and with all these great games coming out, RIVA TNT2 sounds like a good choice for me. But everyone has got to be sure, right?
  • omfg, this is great news, assuming that Nvidia will help out Mesa and build the acceleration into the Mesa Library, then people can buy a powerful 3d workstation without going with a namebrand like SGI, though I suspect they are working on drivers for their on board rendering engine for the 320 and 540 intel series ( which was spectacular at comdex), if Nvidia does do this than I'm definitly going to buy the TNT2.

  • Wee!! (Score:1)

    by tjrw ( 22407 )
    The cost argument is fine up the point that you buy the games. PC games don't tend to cost $65 per game !
    Still I can see your point. I'm waiting for the PSX2, this thing looks incredible.

    Tim
  • I have a Diamond Viper 550 TNT w/16MB. The 2d works great with XFree 3.3.3 but what about my 3d under Linux?
  • A company will definately gain support of Linux users if they are completely open. That's proven. So what you're saying is that they might lose more customers than they gain by releasing the specs. That the unproven assertion.
    We already know that free software junkies will flock to the companies which are most open, and avoid ones which aren't. It's not up to me to disprove that they will lose users to the competition -- no one has proven it will happen in the first place!
  • I havent seen too many details on the TNT2 but the Matrox G400 MAX looks like a worthwhile wait. dual VGA ports, hardware bump-mapping, 32bit Z-buff and 32bit rendering, 32Mb RAM, fully OpenGL compatible (finally), and 256bit dual bus - which should mean DAMN fast 2D (what we all mainly use anyway besides textmode)
    has any1 else done a comparison on this and the TNT2?

  • I'm glad to hear things are going well for the free 3d driver project for Matrox cards. It seems that Matrox "gets it". I'm not sure nVidia and 3dfx get it. They have a real opportunity with the GNU/Linux community, but if they are too slow in releasing hardware information, we'll just pass them by.

    We _can_ live without TNT and voodoo. In fact, lots of people are waiting on the sidelines to see if the 3D companies get their acts together before buying 3D cards. For every Linuxer who bought a TNT or voodoo there are probably a couple who have held off because information about how to program the 3d hardware hasn't been released.

    In a couple of years, the functionality of 3D cards will probably get put in the CPU and nobody will care about 3D cards.
  • it's all in the 3dnow support, of which the TNT & TNT2 have none (well they have some with the TNT2, but weren't factored into his tests). The V3 has less 3dnow support than the V2 did even. I'm not sure if anyone has thought about enhancing performance in linux by using 3dnow or not, so their probably wouldn't be much difference in linux without that.

    If either had a good 3dnow implementation a k6-2/k6-3 would be the equal to any intel chip gaming wise (well their would some AGP differences because the AGP difference from intel standard, but those aren't that large).
  • The newest versions of glide have not been ported to linux yet, therefore neither the voodoo banshee nor the two versions of the voodoo 3 will work under it yet. Check out

    http://glide.xxedgexx.com/status.html

    for more information on how the port of Glide is coming. Right now there is a decent X server available there for the banshee which also works with the Voodoo 3. Support for 3d under the newer 3dfx chipsets should be ready within a few months.

    Which card you go with to me would depend on which one has the best support. I don't know what Nvidia has planned and I don't trust them not to try something intended to lock people into using their products. Maybe they will do it right though, I'm not saying that they won't, just that I'm uncertain of their intentions.
  • Typical... When you find something that you can download, don't wait! It might not be there when you come back. I would think that this server would still be available through other channels, which means it is more difficult to get. Really lame of them to do that.
  • somewhat. I think I remember that from Tom's Hardware. But I could be wrong.

    RB
  • yeah, the only reason i've got windoze on my machine is for gaming purposes.

    and for the CIH virus. i don't like my flash BIOS. ;)

    aaron
  • The TNT2 chipset is actually a TNT chipset made a lot smaller (0.25 micron), so I guess it depends on the drivers.

    aaron

  • Wee!! (Score:1)

    by Hobbex ( 41473 )
    One word: Quake

    Most serious gamers don't want to sit on the floor of the tv room playing Mario 64 by themselves, the only type of gaming that is actually fun is multiplayer over the Internet.

    (ok this is off topic but TNT2 = gaming)
  • Greetings All...

    I've got a lot of emails come in with various questions, and all I can say at the moment is this: Watch the NVidia web site in about 2 weeks time (that is when they told me they would make some formal announcements).

    Also, the TNT does not have 3D support. I don't have any details on the 3D implementation for the TNT2, but my guess would be Mesa.

    I've emailed my contact to ask him if I can publish the message he sent me and maybe his email address, so if I get it I will add it to these comments...

    Until then, let's see what appears on their web site...

    Brian
  • I sure hope they will release the specs for the Riva/TNT1 as well.
    With better 3d support and more games I could delete my windows partition for EVER! ;)))))
  • Nope... an AGP card and a PCI card can work togheter without any problem... that's what I read...
  • I agree totally, The TNT support will be binary-only, which means Redhat probably won't even distribute it, if they stick to the GPL that is. It will be interesting to see what they do. Not that I actually care about redhat... binary-only drivers are not good, if anything they are bad because they decrease the incentive to create a free driver.

    However Matrox has done the right thing and released specs, we have made significant progress on the glx driver for the G200. See the following url:

    http://lists.openprojects.n et/mailman/listinfo/g200-dev [openprojects.net]
  • im more interested in getting work done than gaming.

    is there a way to get 3d with an overlay planes
    in linux?

    mesa does not support trimmed nurbs, this can be
    a problem with using mesa as the "standard" openGL
    for XFree86. trim curve support is important for
    3d apps (maya etc)
  • If someone released specs they would gain more in users than they would lose by giving out the specs.

    An assertion often made, but never proven.

    Five years from now all 3D chips will have about the same features and level of performance (as most 2D chips do now), IP will no longer be that important, and we can all use Open Source drivers. Until then I don't mind meeting NVIDIA half way.

    TedC

  • The TNT support will be binary-only, which means Redhat probably won't even distribute it, if they stick to the GPL that is.

    Red Hat signed an NDA and released a binary-only driver for the Intel i740. This driver was recently released as Open Source, so good things can come from less than perfect beginnings. :-)

    TedC

  • anyone know when I will actually be able to have X working on a tnt2?
    It won't be fully optimized for the TNT2 yet, but the TNT support in XFree86 3.3.3-1 or later (available as .gz's from Xfree86.org [xfree86.org] or as 's from RedHat [redhat.com]) should do an at-least-decent job.

    I love my 2400x1600@32bpp virtual displays on my current TNT; the TNT2 promises to be even better!

  • Hm. (Score:2)

    by aheitner ( 3273 )
    I'm going to guess Daryll will be done 1st -- the V3 is basically the same stuff as V2's (SLI'd), and Glide/Linux already supports that. If Glide works on the Banshee (and it does) then it's not such a big step to the V3.

    The TNT people (BTW TNT2 is the exact same hardware as TNT, just overclocked, nVidia guarantees me that if it works on TNT it'll work on TNT2 :) have to start from scratch. Ooof.

    But hey, I've got a TNT and SLI'd V2's. I win either way :)
  • Red Hat likes to make sure their main distribution includes free source.

    They also include an application CD for other commercial products

    There's no reason they couldn't put nVidia's and 3Dfx's stuff on the application disk. I wish I had thought of that earlier!

    - |Daryll

  • Hmm.. This seems to indicate they are "re-inventing the wheel" themselves. There are already people working on a 3d architecture for Linux, using GLX and Mesa. They have the Matrox G200 working through this already. Any chance these two groups can work together? Certainly supporting many cards through a single 3D system would ultimately be what Linux really needs. I'm not sure this is such A Good Thing if nVidia decides to roll their own proprietary non-standard system.

    Currently if you want 3D and the source to go with it our only option is the G200.
  • Well, I guess now the race is on. Will Daryll Straus working for free for 3dfx come up with support for voodoo3 3d on linux first or will nVidia and TNT2 come up first. I like that 3dfx has allready released full specs for 2d on there banshee and voodoo3 cards.

    ArsonSmith

  • Matrox has nearly one already (Score:3)

    by Crow- ( 35 ) on Monday April 26, 1999 @07:46AM (#1916586)
    We have a fully functional GLX driver for the MGA-G200, it won't be complete until Precision Insight releases their Direct Rendering infrastructure some time in June. Right now mos windowed GL apps run *MUCH* faster, quake2 even runs but has poor performance that will be fixed with PI's driver architecture.

    http://lists.openprojects.n et/mailman/listinfo/g200-dev [openprojects.net]

    Binary-only drivers are not a solution, please do not support hardware that doesn't have free drivers. (Speech, not beer)

  • I think the TNT2 are backwards compatible... (Score:3)

    by coats ( 1068 ) on Monday April 26, 1999 @10:14AM (#1916587) Homepage
    The TNT2 chipset is actually a TNT chipset made a lot smaller (0.25 micron)
    Not just smaller and faster because of the feature-size reduction: the rendering pipelines are re-implemented as well. With the TNT drivers (optimized for TNT timing), TNT2 runs up to 17% faster than TNT at the same clock speed, according to Tom's Hardware Guide [tomshardware.com], and with drivers optimized for the TNT2 timing it should be better yet (this is like optimizing for 486 vs. optimizing for P-II). Additionally, TNT2 offers support for larger (32MB) frame-buffers as well as faster 300MHZ RAMDAC -- and 2048x1536 displays@85hz

    Bit by bit, we're getting closer to the true desktop metaphor (I want my desktop to be 8K x 4K @ 200dpi and 90Hz :-)

  • I have to agree with Crow (Score:4)

    by Fizgig ( 16368 ) on Monday April 26, 1999 @08:26AM (#1916588)
    My order of preference:

    1. An driver written by regular Linux hackers who have full access to specs. (what Crow's doing)

    2. An open driver written by the company.

    3. A closed driver written by the company.

    4. A closed driver written by someone for free for the company. (3dfx)

    Nvidia might be 2 or 3. Let's hope 2. Like they did with their X server code, maybe they'll come around and give out the source. But I doubt it, since they probably consider their 3d parts to have much more information that needs to be kept proprietary.

    Why do I think 1 is better than 2? I've been lurking on the mailing list for the G200 glx driver development, and I've learned so much from it! I had no idea about most of this stuff before. I could never have learned this, even if Matrox developed their own in-house open-source driver. So, it will be a very good thing if Nvidia releases the source to the drivers. I don't particularly like the preceden 3dfx has set. I like the one Matrox has set. Unfortunately, I have a bad feeling about which one Nvidia will follow.

  • Linux 3D architecture (Score:5)

    by Caballero ( 11938 ) <daryll@noSPAM.daryll.net> on Monday April 26, 1999 @09:40AM (#1916589) Homepage
    Let me speak a little to the state of all this, since it is somewhat confusing and I'm seeing some incorrect information.

    I don't know the details of the TNT2 release. My best guess is that they have SGI OpenGL as a base. That means they'll be releasing binary only.

    That's not particularly bad. There is room to have more than one OpenGL implementation. In fact, there are already three (Mesa, XiG, MetroLink).

    The biggest problem is that OpenGL provides and API and not an ABI. That means programs can be recompiled against different OpenGL libraries and work, but compiling against one library doesn't insure compatability with another. No one wants that to be a problem, because we don't want different versions of applications to be required. I've been talking with vendors and suggesting that Mesa be made a reference platform. The advantage of that is that everyone gets it for free and we all agree on interface difference. Mostly this hasn't been a major issue in my testing so far, but it has come up. It also helps that we have some common benchmarking programs that we can all use to test.

    That takes care of the commercial side of the discussion, now lets look at the free software side of the problem.

    Mesa is the OpenGL layer. It currently has a hardware layer known as DD for lack of a better term. The current 3dfx support for Mesa goes through that interface. SUSE has worked on extending that to something they call ACL. See http://www.suse.de/~sim [www.suse.de] for more information. People are also adding multithread support and optimizations to the core of Mesa

    GLX provides and interface layer between an X server and OpenGL. It also allows remote OpenGL applications to communicate with a local server. SGI made GLX open source.

    Precision Insight took GLX and Mesa and rolled that into the XFree 4.0 tree. So, minimally all XFree 4.0 servers will have the capability of doing software OpenGL. This will become a new "assumption" about a Linux workstation which is great.

    There is parallel work going on between SUSE and PI at the moment. Simon from SUSE, is working on a hardware interface layer (generic PCI) and an integration layer (MLX).

    Finally Precision Insight is working on the DRI, direct rendering infrastructure. This allows applications outside the X server to talk straight to the hardware. Here's Q&A [opengl.org] you can read.

    My work on Glide for Rush (and now Banshee/V3) needs something like the DRI. My first solution was a bit of hack (called the Rush extension) and was an X server extension. Switching to the DRI should standardize things further.

    I hope this clears things up. I'm extremely pleased to see all the progress. Having nVidia release an OpenGL is fine as long as it interacts well with applications compiled against Mesa. I'm fairly sure it will since they want Q3 to work!

    - |Daryll

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