Flat Panel Speakers 86
ugene sent us a link
to something I've never seen before:
7mm thick speakers. They
claim they sound as good as conical speakers, but they project
sound 360 degrees. Nifty looking if you're aestheticly
anal, or low on space. I wonder if they can be removed from
their stand and hung right on a wall.
Update: 04/11 06:17 by CT : Cyberdiva sent me a review
as did Alan Dang
from 3DGaming.
Quad rocks! (Score:1)
i had a pair of quad's from the late 60's i found in my uncle's attic. used them for a while but they were to big for me to take w/ me when i moved.
big ass things, and sort of curved, about 4 inches thick.
henri
Uh, yeah, they were too big (Score:1)
i had them in Beirut Lebanon and am now in Tempe Arizona... so yeah, unfortunatly i had to leave them behind...
henri
360 degrees, and hang it on a wall?! (Score:1)
If it can produce sound in 360 degrees, why hang
it on a wall? Why not just hang it from the
ceiling in the middle of the room? =)
Price (Score:1)
They're only $99 with a sub! I wonder if they sound better than other $99 speakers, but they certainly look neat.
Hanging Flat Panels on Wall (Score:1)
--Chouser
This is nice, how about something useful? (Score:1)
But like the flat panel display, what I really want is to eliminate the analog connection to the device from my computer. I have a big problem with interference on my speakers, especially when I'm at home. A few companies are already making USB speakers (Microsoft comes to mind...), but I don't think any serious high-end speaker companies are.
Of course, drivers for a non-windoze OS is a must, too.
Check out this System with Amazing Reviews (Score:1)
For anyone interested in the technical details of the MM-1000, it's a pair of 4x8" planar-magnetic speakers using Neodymium magnets and a mylar/aluminum diaphragm, with a regular (cone) subwoofer. The core technology has been around for many years, but we've made some advances in optimizing it for the desktop and for 3-D audio.
Another planar-magnetic computer speaker with excellent reviews is sold by Eminent Technology [eminent-tech.com] in Florida.
Planar speakers and 3D sound (Score:1)
>Has anyone tried to create a simple/single 3d sound solution out of a magneplanar speaker?
To produce "3D" audio (or even "2D") you need two independent channels of audio, corresponding to the sound going into the listener's left and right ears. If you're using headphones, this is a relatively easy exercise; just send the right signals to each side, and you can get excellent image placement.
The problem with trying to do 3D through speakers is that normally the sound from the left speaker reaches both the left and right ears, and similarly for the right speaker. This crosstalk results in the standard "1D" stereo audio - you can only place sound sources on a line between your speakers.
However, there are algorithms which can anticipate the crosstalk which will occur, and can pre-correct the signals to cancel the crosstalk. It turns out that planar magnetic speakers are quite good for this, because they have a larger, more uniform radiating area than a cone speaker, and also because the dipole pattern of sound radiation decreases unwanted reflections from desktop clutter.
Also note that planar magnetic speakers are not really an "array of many small speakers", since there is typically only one set of electrical connections to the diaphragm, and thus the same electrical current passing through every part of the diaphragm. Therefore, you can't feed different signals to different parts of the speaker, and can't do any neat phase tricks to get better 3D.
Flat speakers in high end hifi (Score:1)
This is nice, how about something useful? (Score:1)
Also try shielded leads.
Short comment... (Score:1)
Interestingly, NXT was originally invented as a noise cancelling technology for fighter aircraft.
Wharfdale do some wall-hanging NXTs (they look like whiteboards, and sound OK). My Linns may take up more space, but it's definitely worth it
Short comment... (Score:1)
As far as I know, NXT was originally invented as a noise cancelling technology for fighter aircraft.
Wharfdale do some wall-hanging NXTs (they look like whiteboards, and sound OK). My Linns may take up more space, but it's definitely worth it
Quad rocks! (Score:1)
I listened to an NXT + sub combo when I got my Linn Keilidhs [linn.co.uk]. Can't say that I thought there was much competition
sound quality & loudness (Score:1)
New technology... (Score:1)
BTW, Fisher and poly-planer were doing the flat panel speaker thing about 25 years ago, the same time as the whole Quadriphonic (that was one of the spellings!) / 4-channel fiasco.
Does anyone remember the piano sounding board-shaped musical instrument speaker from, IIRC, Yamaha?
I dunno about hang on the wall.. (Score:1)
Clear up some FUD (Score:1)
-Planer speakers were developed *before* cone-driven speakers. The original amplified sound transducer is an electrostatic speaker. It dates back to something like 1917
-This technology is, indeed, new. It works by setting up complex interference patterns between multiple transducers placed on a stretched membrane. By contrast, magnaplaner, electrostatic, and ribbon speakers all apply a uniform force over the entire membrane. The advantage of NXT's approach is that problems with bass cancellation from the back wave and the front wave are compensated for by the complex interference patterns. To demonstrate this, move your hand through a bathtub full of water. If you move it swiftly, you get waves in the water. If you move it slowly, the water from the front side of your hand moves around your hand to the back side before any waves can be set up. Move both your hands slowly through the water, spaced apart by some distance, and you will get waves. Basically, if the wavelength at a given frequency is less that 1/2 the width and/or height of the transducer, it will "beam" forward. If it is greater than 1/2 the width and/or height, it will eminate radially from the tranducer, allowing the front wave to travel around the speaker and cancel with the back wave. This is why most "traditional" planer speakers (electrostatics & magneplaners) are mounted in large panels (in the case of electrostatics, the speakers *are* the large panels). It also explains why electrostatics (with the exception of Quad ESL speakers) "beam", as the high frequencies eminate from the *entire* surface, where the waves don't eminate radially (Quads filter the high frequencies, and transmit them through a very small area at the center of the speaker). This is why most electrostats "beam", providing only a single listener with the rich, accurate sound for which they are famous. BTW, you can get much the same effect by using cone drivers mounted in a baffle that is not enclosed (no box). It is not intrinsic to the transducer technology; it is intrinsic to the baffle technology.
-NXT's technology supposedly can produce deep base with a small panel, due to the interference of the waves from the multiple transducers. They shouldn't be limited by speaker size the same way as other planer speakers.
-NXT's work is *new*, and extremely mathematically complex. In fact, the mathematics are so complex that they can only be performed on high-powered computers that have been available in recent years. We can model point sources very well when looking at wave interactions. Planer sources must be modeled using techniques similar to Finite Element Modelling. FEM has been the single biggest market for Cray's supercomputers over the past 20 years--and simulations still can take weeks with today's massively parallel computers. NXT's technology came out of military research used to cancel sound waves inside a cockpit without using headphones, according to NXT. Quite frankly, I believe that this technology came out of military research aimed at cancelling jet engine and helicoptor rotor noise *outside* the aircraft, so as to create sonically stealthy aircraft. This, however, is pure speculation (anyone have access to Jane's? maybe they elucidate the matter).
-This technology is still young. These speakers are a first pass at implementing the technology in a commercial product. I suspect that future iterations will get much better, particularly at producing deep bass.
-This is the same technology that was talked about in a previous slashdot article, about producing sound from plexiglass windows. In fact, some of the technologies that have been discussed are: producing sound from the front of a TV picture tube, producing sound from the roof on a domed stadium, producing sound from panels that fold out from a laptop, and producing sound from the walls of a home. There is no theoretical limit to the size of the tranducer (no "beaming" effects at high frequencies, as with other planer speakers).
In short, this technology is neat stuff. If you're not convinced about the quality of sound from planar speakers, don't judge them from thes $99 speakers. Instead, go down to a high-end audio store and give a listen to some Martin Logans (electrostatic), Quads (electrostatic), Magnepans (quasi-magneplaner), or Apogees (true magneplaner). The sound is really quite stunning. Furthermore, I believe that when this technology is mature, the sound produced by NXT drivers will be absolutely exquisite, packaged in an uncumbersome form factor, and rather inexpensive. In many ways, this may be the Holy Grail of speaker technologies.
sound quality & loudness (Score:1)
As far as headphones go, I have always found that poor sounding speakers are less noticible than poor sounding headphones. And price isn't the only factor in the quality of either speakers or headphones. I have a set of custom modified Baltec 90's (no longer in production, made in Latvia) that cost less than $300 (even after all the mods) and they sound very good; even my dad (who owns a $6K modified pair of B&W 801's) is amazed how good these cheap speakers sound, all for ~$5,700 less!
I'd love a nice pair of Seinheisser headphones.
-beb
Ribbon Speakers (Score:1)
I have a pair of these.... (Score:1)
DIVA REVIEW: Benwin Flat Panel Speakers [newstrolls.com]
I really enjoy them, especially because of their 360 degree/non-directional sound emission. You can be behind or to the side of the speakers and here the same as if you are in front of them. Also the SRS-3D technology on the subwoofer ROCKS!
The $99 ones are best for computer speakers or jambox/shelf stereo speakers. They are coming out with higher wattage ones soon. The current model is only 3W+3W and 6W subwoofer with a frequency range of 60Hz to 18kHz.
To answer Rob's questions (Score:1)
First, correcting 2 typos above (please excuse the oversight):
"NewsTrolls" not "NesTrolls" and
"hear" not "here"
Yes you CAN hang them on the wall...I believe the current packaging includes them...mine did not, but did include fixtures for attaching it to the side of the computer.
Also, for those who complained about it's sound...consider it's frequency range and wattage. Again, these are rather lightweight in those departments, but bigger ones are coming. I hope they do a wireless version so they'll REALLY look cool on the wall (or in the ceiling)...
--diva
Perfect for MP3s! (Score:1)
Price - worth $50... I have a pair (Score:1)
The problem is not however with the flat-panel speaker part. The panels sound good. It is the amplifier/subwoofer module. You
As for mounting them on the wall, I can't figure it out. There is no way given the provided supplies to mount them on anything other than the provided plastic pedestals. They are very light though, 3 oz by my best guess, so it should be easy to hack something together.
All in all though, for the price, they aren't worth it yet. Once Benwin comes up with a better sub module I would recommend them.
Yeh (Score:1)
Not all that new (Score:1)
FourPoint (Score:1)
For how small they are, they can really put out allot of sound.
----> FourPoint [hifi.com]
superbad? (Score:1)
FourPoint (Score:1)
X-Type?
Mike
--
Martin Logan, Poly-Membrane Speakers.... (Score:1)
3.4 K (mine), ReQuest + CLS are more. They do not
need 'special amps' they need high current amps
a 1.5 K amps would do very nicely. The wire mesh
is the 'stator'.
Nothing New (Score:1)
1920's !
The major types are:
electrostats: Quad (late 50's up)
Accustat (out of business) 70-80's
Martin-Logan (80's 90's)
Sound Labs (70's up)
planar magnetics:
Magnepan (70's up)
Apogee (bass panels)
Ribbons:
Apogee (looks to be out of business)
Magnepan tweeter strips
Ribbons have the best high's
electrostats have the best mids
magnetic planars have the best low mids/upper bass
none of them really has great bass for whallop
below about 60 Hz. The Martin-Logans are the best
in terms of real world use, most of the models are
integrated with really fine sub-woofers, and are o
often used in high end home theatre set-ups
W (owner or past owner of: Magnepan I, II, 3.4 +
Martin-Logan Aerius and SL-3)
There is plenty of literature around on these both
technical and marketing
Nothing New (Score:1)
New technology... (Score:1)
sound quality & loudness (Score:1)
Maybe I'm crazy, but if I were a serious audiophile, I'd probably be the only person in any given room who could tell the difference between $300-500 speakers and $3000-5000 speakers. Wouldn't I be better off with a very nice (and radically less expensive) pair of headphones?
Who is a real audiophile? (Score:1)
Have a nice day!
New technology... (Score:1)
That 1 foot tall curved speaker would look cool above the enormous flat panel HDTV of my dreams. : )
It's WAY Lower than 70Hz (Score:1)
If these speakers really can't do anything less than 300Hz they're just tweeters AFAIK.
Hanging Flat Panels on Wall (Score:1)
My dad's system / wall hanging (Score:1)
So like several people have said- flat is nothing new. I am very curious to see how these perform though- and for $120(w/shipping) I might find out. If I do, I'll let ya know:)
Also- the website says they are hangable.
Momerath
But what is New... (Score:1)
Flat speakers in high end hifi (Score:1)
M@tt
http://www.martinlogan.com
Pan the Benwin Speakers (Score:1)
Well, to be more accurate, the panels sound fine.. clear, untroubled highs with a large sweet spot. Tight high end response. For a vibrating quarter stuck to a piece of silvery styrofoam, they sound pretty decent. However, in the case of the Benewin models, they are mated with a small combo sub-midrange speaker, that has all the controls on it. Which means you can't put it on the floor like a conventional sub. You wouldn't want to -- it produces nothing close to sub-like wavelengths.. mostly muddy midrange, which is very bright. Apparently Benewin thought the mids were not being represented well, or perhaps they bought the world's cheapest crossover, but the sub, IMHO, bites.
The panels would sound good if they were a bit bigger, (to handle more of the midrange), with more power and a decent floor-sitting sub.
As for the technology of the flat panels, it's COOL.. you can make a speaker out of a ceiling tile, a picture, mouse pad, wrist rest or whatever.. but the price you pay for versatility is a clean smooth ramp from high end to mid.
Keep an eye out for several other manufacturers coming out with NXT's technology -- I believe the URL for them is http://www.nxtsound.com (may be slashdotted right now).
New technology... (Score:2)
One aspect of their claim is very strange- the vibration pattern of center-driven membranes is not remotely random. It is ripple-like, radiating from the center. If the ripples persist too much, the speaker develops unpleasant 'drumheadlike' colorations. If you drive it in lots of places you could overcome the sound pressure level limitations, but the really _phenomenal_ imaging the design can produce is hosed.
All very interesting, though- I'd love to see where they place the multiple drivers they apparently use, if their reports are not misleading.
Still Nothing New (Score:2)
You can make your own with stretched mylar and a central moving-coil driver. Caveats: 'wide range' means the thing _insists_ on producing super wide range even into areas where the speaker just breaks up (low frequency resonance modes esp.), and the phenomenal dispersion means the efficiency at any given point is really weak- it's just the same really weak anywhere in the room or indeed adjoining rooms- the sound 'carries' phenomenally well. Use a musical instrument speaker for efficiency and surgically remove the cone and basket as much as possible, and do not (trust me) run the little magnet wires over as moving parts- they will crack and cause the speaker to go intermittent and rasp on loud or low notes
Also, the membrane speakers at least are bidirectional- the back wave is _out_ of phase, so you can't reasonably hang them on the wall without obliterating the low end. And, you can't simply make huge versions to get more volume- the whole thing is severely volume-limited as the entire sound output is coupled through a point attached to flexible membrane, so if you want other than ultra faint, make a sphere-like or egg-shaped driver attachment, and make the drive point a _wide_ point on the membrane, not the tip of a cone (easier to construct, but you never heard anything so faint, trust me)
*blink* yeesh, suddenly I'm doing open source speaker design? Guess I'm just surprised- this principle was PATENTED I thought. I could have been making speakers of this type all this time, if only I'd known... I know, I'll write them and _ask_ if they're on solid legal ground. Maybe the Sumo/Museatex concepts failed patenting under prior art or something...
Poly-Planar speakers (Score:2)
As someone else pointed out, the frequency response on these flat panel speakers isn't that impressive. The satellite speakers only go down to 300 Hz, and the subwoofer only to 70 Hz, meaning that it's not going to have much better response than my (subwooferless) Roland monitor speakers. (Ugly and not magnetically shielded, but they sound great, and they were about $80 for the pair.) Also, subwoofers rely on the principle that you can't localize low-frequency sound, but "low frequency" means "under 100 Hz." A crossover frequency of 300 Hz is silly.
Quadrophonic, incidentally, isn't really the predecessor of Dolby Surround except in a spiritual sense. The quad LP formats used distinct tracks for front, side left, side right, and rear, with the idea that the speakers would be 90 degrees apart from one another. Analog home theatre sound really just uses the two standard front left and front right tracks, and mathematically encodes a limited-frequency rear 'effects' channel and center dialogue channel. (Dolby Digital makes all of the channels full frequency separate tracks, separates the rear effects channel into left rear and right rear and adds a limited-frequency separate subwoofer channel.)
Poly-Planar speakers (Score:2)
I see a couple of problems with planar speakers, although they are more personal in nature than objective.
1. They are not a point source, so they are very poor performers in creating a spatial sound field, such as that generated by 3-D sound cards. Since the sound is radiated 360 degrees in a horizontal plane (or nearly so...there are "dead" areas at the sides of the speakers), there is no "focal point" or discernable origin of the sound.
2. Frequency response from planar speakers has always been problematical at best. Infinity probably made the best use of the characteristics of planar elements in their ribbon tweeters of 20 years ago or so. These speakers produce great mide and high range sound, but they are simply too large in area to move coherently over large distances to create any kind of substantial bass frequencies. You'll see that most fans of planar speakers are also fans of subwoofers for this very reason. That's also why these speakers come with a subwoofer.
As far as speaker tech goes, these are really more of a curiosity than anything else, I think. But there are other uses for the technology, such as panels built into walls or ceilings that can produce sound without the physical intrusiveness of a speaker box.
I suppose that a case can be made for the smaller footprint that these speakers have. And they do look very cool...and that's certainly worth something!
Not ready for prime time (Score:2)
But this is hardly ready for prime time.
I'm intrigued by the flat panel approach because it makes the idea of creating a "mini sound stage" more feasible.
At the moment I have two Crown CE1000s, two JBL 15s and a Cerwin Vega 18 sub. Compared to that, these flat panel things are toys -- can't handle real power and produce serious SPLs, don't have the frequency response.
In a few more years, this may develop into an interesting submarket though.
signed,
/The Beat That Goes BOOM/
-------
Still Nothing New(?) (Score:2)
Magneplanar/Electrostatics, no...
NXT's flat panel? Yes.
Instead of driving the surface of the panel which drives the air to create the sound, you 'inject' the panel with energy in such a way as to create the panel to vibrate, and these vibrations help to create the sound...
So instead of a driver pushing the entire plane, or a ribbon or a strip across the panel, molecular clumps of atoms become drivers. The interplay and interaction of the fundamental vibrational modes of the panel(which is required to be rigid and inflexible, for these purposes) with the air cause the sound...
Perhaps an inverse example might make more sense. A panel of glass will vibrate when any sound impacts on it. Laser mics use this property to capture sound off a flat rigid purpose. The glass itself isn't moving, like a speaker driver and cone moves, but rather vibrations across the surface of the glass can be detected on a laser beam reflected off the surface, and these vibrations can be used to reconstruct the original source sound.
Reverse this technique, and create sound from the vibrations off a rigid flat panel. It can be 1/4 of an inch thick, rigid and transparent(Like an LCD screen on a notebook!), is very frequency independent, which means no more need for the tweeters and midrange, at least, and because it isn't drive by a 'point' source, the sound isn't directional; it's a flat plane of sound energy!
That's why it's new tech...
AS
New technology... (Score:2)
This is new stuff, but you are right in saying it's an old form...
Not only is it flat, it's thin; the company who designed and owns the patent is working on making a thin acrylic or plastic sheet an active speaker device, and thus make LCD screens in notebooks or even a sheet layered upon a conventional CRT active speaker elements.
The concept is much different than traditional flat speakers, and an issue with these speakers is the loss of the 'sweet spot' traditionally seen in directional speakers. These flat speakers project sound in a flat plane, and the interaction of the two speakers will not produce a cone of good sound quality, but rather a uniform zone of sound that should not change as one moves around in it. This doesn't bar reflective or destructive interference and interaction between the sound source, walls, and other obstructions, of course.
Succinctly, these speakers work by setting up vibrational modes across the surface of a sheet of plastic material, forcing the entire sheet to act as a speaker. They have effectively enabled each atom and molecule on the surface of a sheet to act as a driver unit, as opposed to a coil behind a cone. This design also removes the frequency limitations that were traditionaly dealt with by having a tweeter, midrange, and bass, though a bass unit is provided for more volume and kick, I believe.
There's more information at their site
flat panel technology [benwin.com]
Because there is no directionality or frequency distributed speakers, I almost think that the technology is inherently incompatible with 3d sound algorithms, though it is still possible to create 3d sound by being surrounded by these speakers and sending different signals to each speaker. It would be equivalent to trying to create a true 3d image out of a 2d surface like a CRT of LCD.
AS
Check out this System with Amazing Reviews (Score:2)
Still nothing beats (Score:2)
Pan the Benwin Speakers (Score:2)
Well, to be more accurate, the panels sound fine.. clear, untroubled highs with a large sweet spot. Tight high end response. For a vibrating quarter stuck to a piece of silvery styrofoam, they sound pretty decent. However, in the case of the Benewin models, they are mated with a small combo sub-midrange speaker, that has all the controls on it. Which means you can't put it on the floor like a conventional sub. You wouldn't want to -- it produces nothing close to sub-like wavelengths.. mostly muddy midrange, which is very bright. Apparently Benewin thought the mids were not being represented well, or perhaps they bought the world's cheapest crossover, but the sub, IMHO, bites.
The panels would sound good if they were a bit bigger, (to handle more of the midrange), with more power and a decent floor-sitting sub.
As for the technology of the flat panels, it's COOL.. you can make a speaker out of a ceiling tile, a picture, mouse pad, wrist rest or whatever.. but the price you pay for versatility is a clean smooth ramp from high end to mid.
Keep an eye out for several other manufacturers coming out with NXT's technology -- I believe the URL for them is http://www.nxtsound.com (may be slashdotted right now).
Poly-Planar speakers (Score:3)
But recycling of audio trends is nothing new. Remember Quadraphonic? (4-channels instead of 2 as in stereo). It's now "Theatre sound system" or some such, and is used mainly with video.
Bruce
Short comment... (Score:3)
Or a theatre placing large flat panels as the projector screen and along the walls for even sround sound?
AS
New technology... (Score:3)
I was wondering if one speaker using NXT's flat panel technology was capable of 3d sound =)
If one could encode phase variation to be played by the speakers, perhaps the speakers could produce truly directional sound, like the way phase array radar works; a grid/array of radar units can actually scan directionally despite being immobile and stationary, by some sort of differential phase calculations.
Likewise NXT panels, since they may be thought as an array of millions of speakers, can you encode delay into the sound and play directionally delayed sound from one panel?
The left edge producing a different direction than the right edge? The middle?
Because it's a panel, you can conceivably create a flat 1 foot tall curved speaker wrapping around an entire room!
AS
Flat is old, tech is new.. (Score:3)
Magneplanars and electrostatics use smaller distributed drivers, and in this sense are similar to NXT's speakers, but they still use larger elements with more mass and more frequency distortion issues. However, since the technique has been done previously by Magenplanars and electrostatics, they can be drawn from...
One thing I can see as a disadvantage is that NXT speakers might not be able to deal with 3d sound other than multiple speakers arranged in an enclosing formation. Perhaps with more computational power and advanced encoding of sound, a single sheet speaker can produce phase varying sound, and multiple speakers can produce delay varying sound, for a better 3d sound experience.
Can a magneplanar speaker be used in this sense, since it is an array of many small speakers? Has anyone tried to create a simple/single 3d sound solution out of a magneplanar speaker?
AS