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Data Storage Cloud IT

'The Future is Not Self-Hosted' (drewlyton.com) 152

A software developer who built his own home server in response to Amazon's removal of Kindle book downloads now argues that self-hosting "is NOT the future we should be fighting for." Drew Lyton constructed a home server running open-source alternatives to Google Drive, Google Photos, Audible, Kindle, and Netflix after Amazon announced that "Kindle users would no longer be able to download and back up their book libraries to their computers."

The change prompted Amazon to update Kindle store language to say "users are purchasing licenses -- not books." Lyton's setup involved a Lenovo P520 with 128GB RAM, multiple hard drives, and Docker containers running applications like Immich for photo storage and Jellyfin for media streaming. The technical complexity required "138 words to describe but took me the better part of two weeks to actually do."

The implementation was successful but Lyton concluded that self-hosting "assumes isolated, independent systems are virtuous. But in reality, this simply makes them hugely inconvenient." He proposes "publicly funded, accessible, at cost cloud-services" as an alternative, suggesting libraries could provide "100GB of encrypted file storage, photo-sharing and document collaboration tools, and media streaming services -- all for free."

'The Future is Not Self-Hosted'

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  • Power failure (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @06:54PM (#65556372)
    When the power goes out, I can start a gas generator and use my local library. Not so much if it is in the cloud.
    • Is there a big need to use your "local library" when the power goes out? You can't go a few hours without being connected to that shit?

    • When the power goes out, I can start a gas generator and use my local library. Not so much if it is in the cloud.

      When the power goes out, and my mom's gas plant kicks in, the internet is there, waiting for her, so that she can resume wherever she left off with her cloud thing.

      At 82 YO, and hailing from a small remote villeage on lebbannon, it was hard enough to teach her to use "normie" stuff. I'd shudder at the tought of teaching her to handle "applications like Immich for photo storage and Jellyfin for media streaming". Not installing and administering them, mind you. Just how to use them.

    • What cloud provider doesn't have a back generator? I certainly don't know of any. AWS and Azure certainly have generator and UPS backups, plus geo-redundant replication so that operations can continue uninterrupted even if an entire datacenter is demolished by a tornado or something. You certainly can't get that kind of up-time with your personal server, even with a gas generator.

      • The question is not whether the cloud provider is up, but whether the cabinet of switches that sits in my neighborhood and stands between me and the Internet is up.
  • It's not free (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Whateverthisis ( 7004192 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @06:55PM (#65556378)
    I like where he's going. Makes sense that servers should almost be like a utility with available resources to serve various public needs. And his point about services like libraries doing this is great.

    But it's not free, and it's not cheap. It's the government that has to pay for it via tax payer dollars, the power, the people, the hardware, the maintenance, etc. It could be free to the user, but the cost has to come out of some government budget somewhere and that's not a simple solution at all. So I like the idea from a policy perspective, but it may not be logistically feasible.

    Seems from a practical implementation perspective it'd be more like a public utility, a regulated monopoly like power distribution or some such.

    • Probably more of a "public option", if the government operates and then sells a service at an "at cost" price it provides competition and price stability in an increasingly verticalized industry.

      Of course I would say in this case this is a matter of if we deem this type of thing a utility rather than a service and even then I would want to see if there is some sort of market failure happening or is it a fairly robust and competitive market already with lots of choices. I think if that's the case then you j

    • I can't see it as very tempting until more people have gigabit ethernet to their house - I don't.
      • The whole point here is that as an alternative to BOTH AWS/Azure type monster datacenters *and* the old server-in-the-cupboard DIY approach (that really does need those gigabit pipes to work well in 2025) , something like local datacenters run by the local city or state govt or whatever, run at cost price to provide alternatives to the giant world eating super-clouds.

        If we all had gigabit pipes, then the host at home thing could be entirely plausible, would just be a case of a bit of software engineering to

    • by rta ( 559125 )

      Also what he's missing is that in practice this would just mean that the local library would contract this out to... google, aws (amazon), or azure / office365 anyway.

      (I agree w/ the TFA that self hosting and staying on top of security threats, software updates etc is just a pain. but i don't think most towns really have the resources to run something like this reliably either. )

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Doing things collectively is usually cheaper than doing them individually, and there's also the issue of support and ease of use. Most people probably wouldn't even try to set up a home server due to the complexity. That's one reason why those off-the-shelf NAS boxes with app stores are popular, despite being expensive.

      100GB isn't much though, if you assume people are going to want to replace physical Bluray collections with digital ones, or big audio collections. I've got getting on for 300GB of music ripp

  • Maybe I'm too old (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 50000BTU_barbecue ( 588132 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @06:59PM (#65556384) Journal

    But why does anyone need or want so much data at home, and worse pay for all this?
    There's only 24 hours in a day, of which I might have 10 to myself. How much can you read, watch, or listen to in a day?
    This is digital hoarding, with the same underlying mentall illness.

    • How much data are you talking about? He said he uses multiple 8TB drives with parity so either has 16TB or 24TB of data. That's not a lot of space for some use cases. If you're into any kind of video recording or processing that will quickly fill up. The summary is clear his server isn't just for books.

    • by darkain ( 749283 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @07:20PM (#65556442) Homepage

      I do photography as a side thing. I've got about 10TB worth of content between RAW and PSD/PSB files. That's just one part of things. Other family members do the same, or record videos. We also sync our phones automatically to our self-hosted solutions through apps like Nextcloud. We're also going back historically and scanning in film/slides dating as far back as a century ago. Its a family archive, something better than a traditional print photo album in that we have searchability, portability, and sharability. The archive isn't just for one person, its for a whole group of people to enjoy whenever they want.

    • Oh yes, those digital hoarders are so insane. Like people who collect commemorative plates or cars. Insane!

    • What are your feelings on plain old bookshelves full of plain old paper books?
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rogoshen1 ( 2922505 )

      Partly because amazon/netflix/whoever can decide arbitrarily, or at the behest of (((rights holders))) to remove things willy nilly. But mainly because it's kind of cool. For a site that used to pride itself on nerdy endeavors, rather than being as obnoxiously pride adjacent as possible (like creating your own alternative to the 'cloud'), you guys sure miss the god damn point.

      But by anecdote, we built our house in a pretty rural spot, the only internet access was either viasat or 4g cellular, both of which

    • Anytime someone asks, "why do you need that?", they're telling you they think you're weird. You're running some other life track that they don't understand, but just know in their bones must be the result of mental illness or bad parenting or something else negative.

      You can use that admission to great advantage.

      • A lot of people have trouble with the concept that other people are different than them and thus have different needs. Worse, if they feel they are in the majority they will easily tell you that your needs don't matter.
    • I'm surprised how many times I hear this argument to justify the use of DRM to take everything away.

    • It's not about having the space for what you want to watch, it's about having the space for all three things you *may* want to watch. Selection takes up space.
    • You will be paying far more for cloud than for the same storage on a small PC. An 8TB drive is around $150 US and lasts for 10 years or more. Add a backup drive and a $200 system to run them with and you are at $500 for 10 years. I doubt you could find a cloud service that costs a little over $4 a month for 8Tb. For $8 a month you could have offsite backup in your parents house or whatever.
    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      If you want to do a lossless rip of a Bluray disc, that is anywhere from 25GB to 125GB. If you compress it down you can get maybe 3GB for a 1080p movie and 10-15GB for a 4k one.

      I've got about 5TB of photos and videos I personally shot (99% on a phone), and maybe another terabyte of edited versions. I suppose arguably I could go through and delete the ones I don't need to keep, remove the RAWs and re-compress the video after editing. But doing so would take so much time that it's cheaper to buy more storage,

  • Ok, sure, but... (Score:5, Informative)

    by dskoll ( 99328 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @07:00PM (#65556386) Homepage

    Maybe self-hosted is not everyone's future... but it's my future---and present, for that matter.

    A cloud service as a regulated and public utility is a good idea. But I'm still gonna hang on to my self-hosted setup (and maybe use the cloud service as a backup.)

  • ”138 words to describe but took me the better part of two weeks to actually do."

    So it’s not “free as in beer”, or “free as in freedom”. It’s just “free as in shit”? If something costs thousands of pounds of labour time, it’s not free. It’s really expensive.

    • If something costs thousands of pounds of labour time, it’s not free. It’s really expensive.

      Only if its something you don't want to be doing. You're not billing yourself for your hobbies.

    • by Torp ( 199297 )

      He didn't have to go all enterprise with docker which eats ram and stupid library managers that transcode video for some unknown reason and thus need cpu.

      My videos are exported through samba and i play them with vlc on a chromecast plugged into the TV. VLC can decode everything so there's no need for transcoding on the server end, or containers and crap.

      For books there's Calibre for a Kindle, or just a directory exported via http for getting them on a tablet.

      You can have a home lab, but you don't need it. I

  • by devslash0 ( 4203435 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @07:02PM (#65556400)

    I'm a software engineer and at some point I got tired of forced updates, continuous changes that no one asks for and just got fed up with the prevailent enshitification in general.

    So I started writing my own apps.

    Now I've got 9 of my own apps for everyday stuff that are written to my spec, with the features I want, no recurring payments (other than super-low AWS bills; under 15 USD a month for everything). Deployed both as web app and an android app. Things like todo lists, shopping lists, financial planner connected with my bank account, a meal planner with meal templates, generation of meals and automatic shopping lists, etc. Fully fledged apps with everything I need and without everything I don't.

    Plus, it's been a great self-development exercise, keeping my skills fresh.

    • You've got one more thing that truly is priceless. Privacy. You are not sharing that data with big tech. Good for you. I work from home, so no real need for phone app's, but I do my own IoT and the software associated with it. Again, privacy, priceless.
  • by Valgrus Thunderaxe ( 8769977 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @07:03PM (#65556402)
    Then I'll keep going into book stores where I can purchase books.
    • Arrrr! Is that what you do, me matey?

    • Following up on your subject line... If the purchase agreement didn't previously specifically say a license was being purchased, instead of an electronic copy of the book, then I fail to see how the updated terms could/should apply retroactively to previous purchases. The prohibition / disablement of saving copies should only apply to purchases made *after* the term were updated. I wonder how a law suit would pan out. Maybe the verbiage was buried somewhere else, though wouldn't make it a deceptive pra

      • by PPH ( 736903 )

        I fail to see how the updated terms could/should apply retroactively to previous purchases

        Probably some little clause in the original license which you failed to notice.

        "I Am Altering the Deal, Pray I Don't Alter It Any Further."

    • by Bongo ( 13261 )

      Yep, why not buy the book, remove the binding, scan the pages, and even throw away the paper. This whole license thing is going too far.

  • Summary (Score:5, Insightful)

    by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @07:04PM (#65556404) Journal
    His reasoning is "My self-built server was difficult to build and it didn't have all the features I wanted."

    While that is true, it is a solvable problem, by making better software. He also added needless complexity to his project, for example, putting everything in Docker containers. There is also some question as to whether he needed 8 TB of hard drive space, but also I feel jealous of that, so if he wants it, go for it.

    His solution is to make a public cloud, available from the library, with all the features and data available by API. This is not something the US government will be able to do, for various reasons. One party will try to censor it, and the other will try to destroy it (or vice versa, depending who implements it first).

    In short, he came up with a solution that was not great, and proposed a solution that is not feasible.
    • I'm not sure if I could have enough storage to store a local copy of every game, movie, and TV show that I'll need to keep myself entertained for a lifetime. Saving a copy of every YouTube video I ever watched would probably go into dozens of TB on it's own.

      It would be pretty cool if there was a free peer to peer storage network to store this kind of stuff. The copyright holders would never go for that sort of thing, though.

      Even it it was all copyright free material, you know that some jerk would eventually

    • He chose a really cumbersome way to go about it. If you want to make your own cloud, it makes sense to use cloud software like NextCloud or OwnCloud.

      Also, for like $10/mo. he could get a VPS and slap NextCloud on there.

      Another easy solution would be TrueNAS. He would have a web interface for installing those Docker containers and whatnot and there would be very little manual configuration.

      He talks about how he spent two weeks hacking together a bunch of setup scripts when that was completely unnecessary. It

      • He chose a really cumbersome way to go about it. If you want to make your own cloud, it makes sense to use cloud software like NextCloud or OwnCloud. Also, for like $10/mo. he could get a VPS and slap NextCloud on there. Another easy solution would be TrueNAS.

        Solid recs.

  • Internet connections, servers, maintenance, software, etc all cost money. Why should any of this stuff be âoefreeâ? Sure you donâ(TM)t have to host your own server in your basement, hut you can use a hosting account online, Google drive, onedrive, box,Dropbox etc.

  • by yababom ( 6840236 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @07:05PM (#65556414)

    I have to update Immich once in a while, but I don't have to worry about Google sifting through my photos. I have to have an extra drive dock for Plex content, but I don't have to worry about managing a dozen different video service subscriptions.

    I don't think my self-hosted services are "virtuous," but I do think they represent some of the best options available, and I have the skill to take advantage of what thy offer.

    And why in the world would I trust a local library to securely store my content from all the hackers and identity thieves in the world?

  • by TheMiddleRoad ( 1153113 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @07:24PM (#65556460)

    I self-host photos, media, backups, and such. It's well-engineered and pretty low power. Then I have mostly decent apps on my phone for everything. Well, the audio streaming sucks, but the rest is good. I've been on vacation for a month and have full access to my files.

  • Don't over think it. (Score:4, Informative)

    by RitchCraft ( 6454710 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @07:26PM (#65556462)

    Over the years I have purchased a Synology DS213j with (2)2TB drives, a DS216j with (2)4TB drives, and a DS218j with (2)8TB drives. The services built into these inexpensive NAS' are all you need. The only issue I ever had was one of my 4TB drives died. But no worries, RAID to the rescue. I replaced the drive and was back up after RAID rebuilt the new drive. I always purchase a third drive as a spare if and when needed. As time progressed and I needed more space I simply purchased another NAS and moved the files to the larger NAS. I keep the older NAS' online for moving large files around my network or temp space when working on computers. I've been doing this for about 15 years now with no issues. (Yes, I realize that Synology became ass-bags recently so I'll need to choose wisely when purchasing my next NAS.)

  • by fuzzyfuzzyfungus ( 1223518 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @07:32PM (#65556474) Journal
    It seems like major conceptual confusion to be discussing whether self or public hosting is better when you started the adventure in response to Amazon turning the screws on Kindle users.

    They didn't do that because AWS blob downloads suddenly got way more expensive; they did that because they have effectively total control over what permission changes happen in response to giving them money; and considerable though imperfect control over the behavior of client applications(especially on smartphones; where default-deny cryptographic enforcement and attestation are significantly more common). Same thing with the ever-shifting 'exclusives' and ad loads of the various streaming services: those don't suck because Netflix is bad at CDN; they suck because the rightsholders can turn, and wish to, turn the screws with a lot more granularity than they could back when the limited ability of DVDs to phone home more or less forced them to suck it up and resent first sale quietly.

    Especially if you stay away from some of the vendor-specific abstractions and upsells private sector 'cloud' pricing is pretty aggressive and a number of very useful types of service are even reasonably portable between them. The issue is that, at the 'consumer' level, actually being a cloud service customer; rather than being a subscriber or buyer of licensed-not-sold-sucker digital things, is at least as atypical as self-hosting; and it's typically the service rather than the infrastructure layer where the screwjob comes in.

    This isn't to say that 'the cloud' is always the better option; hyperscaler margins comes from somewhere and that somewhere is not always operational efficiencies; but the user experience difference between running a chunky NAS and paying for some S3 buckets or whatever is vastly smaller than the difference between either of those options and a service where you need to plead with Amazon for them to bless your client with a text file or satisfy Widevine L1 to get high resolution video streams.
  • I'm assuming that it's some nasty little bit of Monopoly that I'm unaware of but I'd like to know the specifics if anyone knows. But a few years back the price of bandwidth went through the roof and we have fatter pipes and faster computers than ever so there really is no excuse for that.

    Like I said my guess is Monopoly and or collusion but does anyone know the specifics?
  • Gimme Serfdom? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SteveSgt ( 3465 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @08:01PM (#65556544)

    It will always be the goal of oligarchs to move us from an ownership society toward serfdom--that's where the real profit is. If you look at many of the technological developments of the past decade, that's where we're headed:

    The oligarchs sell you convenience with a "devil's bargain": Why buy books, music, movies, and other cultural artifacts when you can rent them, leaving a data trail of your every cultural experience for marketing manipulators to analyze? Why keep your own anonymous money in the form of cash when you can pay with bits in your phone, making every purchase, no matter how trivial, analyzable by marketeers, auditable by law enforcement, and available to political actors seeking to hamper their enemies? Why store your memories and secrets in your own possession when "the cloud" will let you access it from anywhere, all the while never promising that nobody else can access it from anywhere? Why own property with your own rights to it when the job market keeps you moving from place to place, never really developing a community and connections close enough to stand with you, and you with them, when your collective will is challenged?

    You should own your data. You should own your story—you should should have exclusive power over who gets to keep it, who gets to tell it, and who you choose to tell it to.

  • I gave up running my own servers probably 15 years ago.

  • The Past being "being able to curate a collection of stuff that we increasingly get told that we no longer buy and/or own". For the people that this matters , of course.

    It starts out small, and often not very noticeable, but is a like a digital comparable to half life of radioactive decay for data. Over the span of many years, we lose track/copies of things in a seemingly random manner. Ebooks, digital video/music purchases, video/music on physical media, our personal email data, photo collections saved to

  • by williamyf ( 227051 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @08:29PM (#65556616)

    Are the currency of free as in beer and free as in freedom software...

    Some people have the knowledge and time, but not the willingness. My case, I do OpenStack in the day, I do nt want to do it in the afternoon and weekneds too. Like Linus, I'd rather dive (pun intended).

    Other people have the knowledge and willingnes, but lack the time.
    Other people have time and willingness, but lack the knowledge*.
    Other people have the willingness, but lack BOTH the knowledge and the time.

    For those people, normal cloud services, and/or a Synology, QNAP (and others) that provide turn-key paid private clouds are a god send.

    There is room for everything and everyone.

    * There are people who are very knowledgeable and smart, but in their own domain, but lack specific computer knowledge for F/OSS. An MD, lawyer or CPA are great examples of what I mean.

  • by Voyager529 ( 1363959 ) <voyager529.yahoo@com> on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @09:06PM (#65556672)

    ...instead of having enthusiasts work on their hobby if it matters to them, Drew proposes that libraries - notorious for funding constraints and limited staffing - offer those same self-hosted services? ...And, I assume library staff is going to provide tech support for this, right? And he wants backups, right? And 100GB/patron means that it'd take less than 10% of patrons to exhaust the amount of storage most libraries would budget for...AND, are libraries supposed to keep data if users move out of the district? Also, my last discussion with my library's IT folks indicated that they got rid of their local servers and it's all on AWS and/or M365 now anyway...

    And let's even assume ALL OF THAT was solved...he didn't like the function set...what's the library going to offer that will solve that problem? If it's software who's functionality he didn't like, that has nothing to do with self-hosting. If the library software solves the problem...what would be the problem self-hosting it since he's got the gear anyway?

    Ultimately, it's super unclear what the point is here...except that, apparently, he wants to externalize hosting onto taxpayers instead of having to make the purchases. To his point, self-hosting is a hobby, and it's not for everyone...but it's super unclear how he's suggesting "a future we should be fighting for". People that don't care about privacy or transient availability of data are served by Google and Microsoft and Amazon. The people that *do* care about those things aren't going to trust their local libraries much more than they'll trust the big tech. So...why is this a better future? It's still trusting one's own data to someone else's computer...

  • ... they got to him!

  • by Big Hairy Gorilla ( 9839972 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @09:53PM (#65556730)
    I'm guessing this might be generational thinking. Saying something is inconvenient isn't a powerful argument .. its closer to a journalistic point of view.

    I'm not hearing anything about any Orwellian scenarios that are looking likely , such as , big tech curating what you see to arbitrary revocation of privileges.

    Hard pass . Guaranteed to be science fiction bad .
  • by Sauce Tin ( 1884020 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @10:04PM (#65556752)
    128GB RAM for a glorified FTP server with Jellyfin? And he's a software developer? And it took him 2 weeks to stand up a handful of docker containers? Lol. Surprised this one even got posted. 12 year olds can do better with a hand me down laptop.
  • by itsme1234 ( 199680 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @10:36PM (#65556818)

    You can do that on the very first Raspberry Pi, or literally on any smartphone that accepts some storage. Or (the natural place mosly anyone could have and it's on 24/7) on some openWRT capable router.

  • "Work too hard, I want somebody else to do it for me for free."

    I don't begrudge anybody who takes two weeks to learn how to admin a linux system with Docker, but if you fail, keep working, don't insist everybody's municipal government take over and tax your neighbors to give you "free" luxury services.

    And, yes, never will everybody have the skills to self-host. Some people could never learn to program their VCR and their oven clock always blinks. They can't even handle a Synology.

    "I failed, this is doomed

    • Frankly it would be best if the government stays out and doesn't do the things it does (not all in one country, collected from around the world), namely charging/for:

      - TV and Radio tax even if you don't have a radio or TV, even if you don't have ANYTHING that can stream, no phone, PC, internet connection, anything. Germany, I'm looking at you, although UK is also funny with their TV license that's based on the TV, and it's charged at a reduced rate for blind people (but they still pay for TV) and they pay m

  • sorry but what (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Gideon Fubar ( 833343 ) on Wednesday July 30, 2025 @10:59PM (#65556852) Journal

    I don't mean to be completely dismissive of his efforts but this really sounds like he took a very naive approach to replicate an aesthetic experience instead of looking at the functions he actually needed, then complained it was a lot of work.

    There are definitely better ways to do this.

  • Almost all the companies who we trusted with our data--has turned on us, from scraping, AI training, to targeted ads, to profiling. It has to stop. We need to get our privacy back.
  • by ledow ( 319597 )

    Any "developer" that takes two weeks to deploy what is basically Nextcloud... yeah, I don't trust their opinion at all.

  • "Libraries could provide "100GB of encrypted file storage, photo-sharing and document collaboration tools, and media streaming services -- all for free."

    Libraries are one of the few remaining places where the weight of one's wallet doesn't determine what access one has to the world of knowledge. It would be good to see them expand into this area.

  • Non technical people are not going to buy and operate a high end server with 128GB ram, and then manually deploy hundreds of virtual machines on it...
    But buying an off the shelf NAS appliance, many people can and do exactly that.

    Many of these NAS devices will let you install additional packages as simple as choosing them from a list, you get things like owncloud, torrent clients, media servers etc as well as the built in capabilities of the NAS.
    Adding an SSL certificate is usually also a built in capability

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