Ford Plows Ahead On EV Battery Factory Amid Political Storm (axios.com) 61
Ford is moving forward with its $3 billion EV battery plant in Michigan despite political pushback and the potential loss of key U.S. tax credits that make the project financially viable. Axios reports: Ford's argument is that by building batteries using technology licensed from China's leading battery producer, CATL, it is helping to re-shore important manufacturing expertise that was long ago ceded to China. [...] "LFP batteries are produced all around Europe, and the rest of the world," said Lisa Drake, Ford's vice president of technology platform programs and EV systems. "How can we compete if we don't have this technology? Somebody has to take the lead to do this," she said, adding that it will lead to homegrown innovation and the seeding of a domestic supply base. "I'm convinced this is the right thing to do for the United States," she said.
Drake said the tax subsidies are even more important in the face of slower-than-expected EV demand. "When EV adoption slowed, it just became a huge headwind," she said. "The [production tax credit] allows us to keep on this path, and to keep going." "We don't want to back off on scaling, hiring or training in an industry we need to be competitive in the future," she said. "It would be a shame to build these facilities and then have to scale back on the most important part of it, which is the people. These are 1,700 jobs. They don't come along very often."
Consumer tax credits for EV purchases get the most attention, but for manufacturers, the far more lucrative incentives come in the form of production tax credits. Companies could receive a tax credit of $35 per kilowatt-hour for each U.S.-made cell, and another $10 per kilowatt-hour for each battery pack. With an annual production capacity of 20 GWh, Ford's battery plant could potentially receive a $900 million tax credit, offsetting almost one-third of its investment. [...] The Republican-controlled Senate could vote as early as Wednesday on a budget bill that would rewrite language around EV tax credits. A House version of the bill passed last month effectively killed the production tax credits for manufacturers by severely tightening the eligibility requirements. It also specifically prohibited credits for batteries made in the U.S. under a Chinese licensing agreement -- a direct hit on Ford.
Drake said the tax subsidies are even more important in the face of slower-than-expected EV demand. "When EV adoption slowed, it just became a huge headwind," she said. "The [production tax credit] allows us to keep on this path, and to keep going." "We don't want to back off on scaling, hiring or training in an industry we need to be competitive in the future," she said. "It would be a shame to build these facilities and then have to scale back on the most important part of it, which is the people. These are 1,700 jobs. They don't come along very often."
Consumer tax credits for EV purchases get the most attention, but for manufacturers, the far more lucrative incentives come in the form of production tax credits. Companies could receive a tax credit of $35 per kilowatt-hour for each U.S.-made cell, and another $10 per kilowatt-hour for each battery pack. With an annual production capacity of 20 GWh, Ford's battery plant could potentially receive a $900 million tax credit, offsetting almost one-third of its investment. [...] The Republican-controlled Senate could vote as early as Wednesday on a budget bill that would rewrite language around EV tax credits. A House version of the bill passed last month effectively killed the production tax credits for manufacturers by severely tightening the eligibility requirements. It also specifically prohibited credits for batteries made in the U.S. under a Chinese licensing agreement -- a direct hit on Ford.
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He's one of those penguins Trump if trying to tariff.
Tux?
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Unless you’re talking about some remote corner of Texas, rural locations are great for EVs. Plenty of room at home for a domestic charger and often lots of land and roof space for solar & batteries too. Never need to get to a gas station again. How often are rural drivers travelling more than 300 miles in a day? Not very often, I’d wager.
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You must live in a shithole.
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Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2, Flamebait)
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That's an ideal scenario for an EV.
It's not bad, depending on distance, but hardly ideal. EVs are best if you use it regularly for short journeys. You save hugely if you can charge from solar panels during the day. You get the benefit most if you use the battery regularly somewhere in the middle of its range. You get lots of benefit if you use it plenty and have the reduced maintainance
If you have a near end of life car and just need it for flexibility but rarely drive it, then it can easily make more environmental sense to run it than to bu
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1. The “middle of the range” thing is the wrong mindset. People worry so much about preserving their theoretical future max range that they deliberately hobble themselves to 20 to 80% of their range today.
2. In five years, an EV will have lost 5 to 10% of its range. I can buy a second hand Renault Zoe today with easily more than 200 miles range. That’s far more than “just enough for your run into town”
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How long do you plan to live? There is always a point where keeping a car going costs more than a new car. Especially if your car has computer components. I guess though if you plan to die in the next decade then you are probably correct.
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:2)
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It's already 8 years old, so you are expecting it to last at least 20 years with just basic maintenance. Because those rising costs are also going to be the rising cost of parts. So if it needs anything besides some filters and oil you can expect that to also be reasonably out of your reach.
Unless you are super mechnaically inclined and can junk yard hunt for parts.
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:1)
Come on, you meant dinghy. A fiscally sensible dinghy.
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So basically you think that there is no sentinent life outside your county? That borders on solipsism, you know.
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Enjoy the few years before oil prices surge when everywhere else mandates EV and the demand for oil plummets.
As it is, for decades I heard about nothing else but the cheap fuel in the US compared to the rest of the world... and that's gone REALLY quiet for the last few years. Maybe you need to invade some more oil-producing countries again, that's bound to lower the price, right?
20% of new car sales worldwide are EV (not counting hybrid etc.). And we haven't even STARTED actually taxing/banning fuel based
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Re:I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:4, Interesting)
Gosh, if only there were thousands of locations all over the country, in which you could install dozens of chargers, which charge your car more than fast enough, and which were all conveniently located near roads, and which - for instance - could be sited on an existing, now going defunct, site which won't be used as much by ICE cars as time goes by.
The EV charging argument is dead - fast charging and high-capacity batteries. Same way that apartments never used to come with parking spaces at all... things will evolve. Same way they had to add telecoms, laundry rooms, Internet, cable/satellite TV, online rent payments, etc. etc. etc.
If they want the customers, they'll add in EV chargers to the existing spaces. It's really that simple. After a bunch of tenants associations demand it, it'll happen and become the norm. And they'll add their 10% to the cost and realise it's actually a direct revenue stream (unlike all the above which are just ways to entice customers) so long as they don't go silly with it (because then people will just charge elsewhere).
Saying that THAT's going to be the blocker? You're just looking for excuses. It's that simple.
Landlords will start lobbing in EV chargers with a 10% commission as soon as their tenants start demanding them. And then laugh at the free money for doing nothing, because people are too lazy to just drive it down the road to an already-existing gas station converted to have EV points on it.
I'm literally at a workplace with EV charging points, and EV vehicles for company use. They save a fortune on their own transport expenses AND they get revenue from... customers! Willing to charge their EVs! There are sometimes literal arguments over the spaces (e.g. when a non-EV car is blocking an EV charger).
On my way home are a dozen stations with EV charging. And MOST houses (not all, granted) can have an EV charger fitted very simply. And new-builds are starting to mandate them.
Sorry, but "oh the software's a bit clunky" or "my landlord might not want to" is literally the bottom of the barrel for arguments.
For reference, I don't drive an EV. My next car - without doubt - will be an EV. And I'll install an EV charger at home to do it. I literally bought a house years ago with the criteria for having an EV charger... before I ever had an EV. Because, to me, it's like buying a house that isn't on the electric or doesn't have broadband. Whether or not I need/use it this instant, I want my house to be able to do that.
So I bought a house which deliberately has a driveway, a porch with power, and an ideal spot for installing an EV charger. The only reason I don't change today... is an actual problem with EVs... it's a bit pricey to lay out for one up-front. But when my car needs more than a basic service... I'll be pricing it up.
Re: I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:3)
You live alone, apparently and only need one charger.. I have five vehicles parked at my house for five different people. Not sure how I would even charge 5 cars without having to shuffle them around all the time.. in the garage, out of the garage.. If I install one charger then I migh
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This is a very American post. You have five cars and cannot conceive of a 20m (that's 6.5 decafeet) charging cable.
But wait a minute your post doesn't even make a lick of sense. If you'd have to shuffle cars to get one in the garage, then you already have to shuffle cars around to get out whichever is in the back already.
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I think EVs suck for a lot of reasons but the the at home charging thing isnt really the issue people make it out to be.
You really just need two phases, even on 30 amps circuit so ~23 can flow to car you can top an EV overnight. There are devices now that can disable the charger when other major electrical appliance likes dryers or ranges are running, so max load calculations are not a issue either.
The biggest problem is electrical codes in places need to catch up to allow some of this stuff, so home owner
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L1 charging even works fine for a lot of people, especially if there's an L3 fast charger in the area for occasional use. If your car is home 12 hours per day, on average, you can put in 50 miles of range per day with an ordinary 120V 15A outlet. That's 350 miles per week, which exceeds the 280 miles per week the average American drives. A sequence of heavier-than-average driving days could leave your battery low, which is why it's helpful to have access to a fast charger, though it won't normally be need
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I totally agree that EV charging at home has been solved. Where I live (SE Michigan), our local utility company (DTE) will even come out and install a separate meter for your EV charger in case your existing panel doesn't have the ampacity to accommodate 1 or 2 additional 220V circuits for charging.
I think broad charging on the road still has some ways to go. Yes, there may be fast charging infrastructure along major interstate routes between cities. But as an outdoorsy person, I find myself driving to a
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Landlords will start lobbing in EV chargers with a 10% commission as soon as their tenants start demanding them. And then laugh at the free money for doing nothing, because people are too lazy to just drive it down the road to an already-existing gas station converted to have EV points on it.
I don't believe that would be a matter of being "lazy". If BEVs got to be so popular that apartment managrs would install EV chargers for tenants that ask for them then why would the people in the apartments drive to a public charger? The apartment dweller isn't likely to buy the high-end BEV that can take on a 10 minute DC fast charge from a 250 to 350 kW charger. Budget minded BEVs will likely be limited to 120 kW or less, meaning they'd have to "babysit" their EV for potentially hours. That might wor
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Enjoy the few years before oil prices surge when everywhere else mandates EV and the demand for oil plummets.
Why would oil prices surge if EV mandates are driving down oil demands?
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Enjoy the few years before oil prices surge when everywhere else mandates EV and the demand for oil plummets.
Why would oil prices surge if EV mandates are driving down oil demands?
Makes no sense to me either
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Fixed/semi-variable costs and high capex costs of oil production need to be covered by a shrinking base of users, maybe?
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Why would oil prices surge if EV mandates are driving down oil demands?
For the opposite reason that products become much cheaper as they become widely available.
* as demand reduces, supply reduces
* with EVs taking off, gas stations are already planning to close, selling land if they can, whilst they can.
* reduced competition means more ability to rip people off
* more rip offs means fewer people willing to pay, so profits reduce and more places close
Of course, as gas becomes less and less available, range anxiety can become a problem and so people will avoid driving and make th
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That's a fine and polite way of saying "I surround myself with like minded anti-EV people and I'm so self centred that I think the world outside my closed circle doesn't exist".
Re:I don't know of anyone buying an EV ! (Score:4, Interesting)
I live in a small southern rural town, like good ol' redneck boys everywhere, 1 hour drive to the nearest mall / shopping area, 75% of votes go republican. I've seen more EVs bought here in the last year than in the last several combined. At least two cybertrucks, many Tesla cars (even seeing them at low-budget apartments now, and not just upper-middle class), plus other brands of stuff. They are totally commonplace here now. Maybe we're behind the curve and it's just now getting popular here, but EVs are definitely being sold.
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This town is on an interstate, so we actually have a Tesla Supercharger station in a hotel parking lot, a Sheetz that has 4 EV chargers, and apparently the Nissan dealership has a charging station as well (just googled my town because this made me curious).
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And it's also nice when ICE agents swarm some Iranian and Chinese spies.
Right now they're too busy trafficking people who have just shown up for their immigration hearing appointments for that.
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Thank you for the sample size of one.
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LFP for dummies (Score:5, Informative)
For those who aren't familiar with LFP batteries, traditional lithium batteries (such as nickel-manganese-cobalt, or NMC) have good energy density and last a long time if you pamper them, but have this problem where they burst into flames if you puncture them. And the metals in them are very expensive.
LFP is lithium-iron-phosphate. They have less energy density (CATL's LFP have 205 Wh/kg compared to 260 Wh/kg or even over 300 Wh/kg in some NMC battery cells). However, LFP are much safer and less likely to explode if they're punctured. LFP also contains no nickel or cobalt, which is a huge advantage. LFP also has better longevity, supporting 3000 to 10,000 cycles vs 1000 to 2300 cycles for NMC.
So LFP is not the highest performance battery cell, but it has a lot of advantages (safety, cost, longevity) that make it a winning product. You're already seeing them in "solar generator" products (basically a fancy UPS box, e.g. the EcoFlow product line) and my understanding is that Tesla's Standard Range Model 3 vehicle has used LFP cells for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw LFP replace most usages of lead acid batteries in the near future since the cell voltage is 3.2V nominal, and you can stack 4 cells to get a 12.8V battery, which would be a drop-in replacement for most lead acid applications.
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They have to call those things "solar generators" with an American flag printed on the side otherwise people will think it's woke and gay.
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I wouldn't be surprised if we saw LFP replace most usages of lead acid batteries in the near future since the cell voltage is 3.2V nominal, and you can stack 4 cells to get a 12.8V battery, which would be a drop-in replacement for most lead acid applications.
This isn't true for multiple reasons. First and most importantly, full charge on a 4-cell LFP is 3.6 volts. That means full charge on a nominal 12V LFP is 14.4V. Charging voltage is therefore 14.6V or 14.8V and the details are handled by the BMS. Maximum charging current is also far higher than a six-cell flooded battery, which is fully charged at 12.6V, and where maximum safe charging voltage is about 2V over the current battery voltage. (Yes, some chargers do significantly more voltage — this is bad
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The voltage out of an automotive alternator can easily get to 15 volts. As I recall a typical range will be something like 14.2 to 14.4 volts but apparently heavy duty trucks will be regulated to 14.8 volts. I don't see the voltage difference as a problem.
Any devices that plug into a 12 volt automotive accessory outlet will often be built to tolerate voltage as high as 16 volts. For a decent number of my automotive accessories they are built to handle 32 or even 48 volts for compatibility with 28 volt ai
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The voltage out of an automotive alternator can easily get to 15 volts
If it does that, there is a problem. It should never, ever go over 12.65+2=14.65v. That's how electrolyte gets cooked off.
I doubt anyone will claim that LFP can be dropped in everywhere that there is a lead-acid battery
The person I replied to did so.
it's that incompatibility with common 12 volt automotive and other similar devices/systems is not among the reasons to avoid LFP.
Yes, in fact it is a reason to avoid dropping it in anywhere that a flooded battery is used without knowing what you're doing, and I've explained why.
Let us know when you get your A6 or equivalent.
LFP for everyone (Re:LFP for dummies) (Score:4)
Ford is wise to continue with this battery plant as the cells can be used in grid scale storage, whole-house batteries, UPS systems for computers/telephones/whatever, power tools and lawn care equipment, portable power packs like those for charging cell phones and such, and more besides just electric vehicles.
As mentioned in the parent post these LFP batteries can be made in a form factor and with a BMS to be a drop in replacement for most any lead-acid battery. With antimony in short supply, a vital metal for durable lead-acid batteries like those for automotive use, there is an opening for more LFP batteries to take their place. Ford can get ahead on replacing lead-acid automotive batteries with LFP meaning there is a market for these batteries even if they sell few EVs.
Then is the rising popularity of the PHEV. As far as I can tell a typical HEV, the hybrids that don't plu-in, have a battery of around 1.5 kWh. A typical PHEV battery will be about 15 kWh, ten times the capacity of the HEV battery. A BEV will have a battery of about 75 kWh, about five times the size of the PHEV battery. So, I'd expect Ford to be able to sell plenty of vehicles with LFP batteries even after the EV subsidies dry up. As I understand the EV tax credits few HEVs would qualify, and not every PHEV would qualify either, and yet people were buying them in large numbers. I'd expect that the ending of EV subsidies would reduce BEV sales while increasing sales on HEVs and PHEVs for a variety of reasons.
I'd like to see PHEVs have a bit more all electric range, most or all on the market today have an all electric range of 50 miles or less. If they can get that up to something like 75 miles so there's a vanishingly few people that could not get their daily commute in on all electric power, and perhaps more than half can get two days or more on a single charge, then that makes the PHEV more of a BEV with a gasoline backup than a gasoline vehicle with a battery backup. If Ford is looking for places to put their extra battery capacity because BEV sales dried up then there's a clue.
I expect the ICEV as we know it to disappear, replaced with PHEVs, HEVs, and "electrified" ICEVs where technologies developed for EVs are incorporated into ICEVs more and more. That will drive demand for LFPs.
LFP is a safer and lower cost alternative to NMC, and Ford has ample opportunities to cash in on that advantage even if they lose some government subsidies. I believe they will end up ahead by continuing this project. As if anyone should listen to me, Ford would know more on this than I do and they aren't walking away.
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With PHEVs you have to religiously plugin to benefit. I think EREV has a much bigger oppurtunity in the US than traditional PHEVs. Big cars, lots of people with driveways, relatively expensive cars. Perfect for range extenders.
Also EREV still needs big batteries.
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Tesla has been using them since 2021, but other manufacturers have been using them longer and in far greater volumes too. The main issue with the Tesla ones is that they are still using cylindrical cells, instead of prismatic or pouch cells. Cylindrical cells are in theory able to deliver higher power, but in practice for a battery made up of so many of them... Well, Teslas don't charge as fast as rivals using other types of LFP cells, and acceleration is limited by the motors and grip.
The downsides to cyli
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Military action? ... again.
It's a new Cuba! (Score:2)
The Big 3 better hope they can run at a profit in the US alone, because the current administration seems wholly committed to ensuring they will only make globally uncompetitive models: too big, shitty fuel economy, focused on ICE, non-existent pedestrian / vulnerable road user safety features, and poor quality and value for money thanks to a lack of home market competition.
Visiting the US is going to end up being like visiting Cuba, at this rate -- something relatively few visitors do, always mindful of the
It's up to MAGA (Score:2)