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Can AI-Enabled Thermostats Create a 'Virtual Power Plant' in Texas? (yahoo.com) 113

Renew Home says they're building a "virtual power plant" in Texas by "enabling homes to easily reduce and shift the timing of energy use." Thursday they announced a 10-year project distributing hundreds of thousands of smart thermostats to customers of Texas-based power utility NRG Energy, starting next spring. (Bloomberg calls them "AI-enabled thermostats that use Alphabet Inc.'s Google Cloud technology.") The ultimate goal? "Create a nearly 1-gigawatt, AI-powered virtual power plant" — equivalent to 1.9 million solar panels, enough to power about 200,000 homes during peak demand.

One NRG executive touted the move as "cutting-edge, AI-driven solutions that will bolster grid resilience and contribute to a more sustainable future." [Residential virtual power plants] work by aggregating numerous, small-scale distributed energy resources like HVAC systems controlled by smart thermostats and home batteries and coordinating them to balance supply and demand... NRG, in partnership with Renew Home, plans to offer Vivint and Nest smart thermostats, including professional installation, at no cost to eligible customers across NRG's retail electricity providers and plans. These advanced thermostats make subtle automatic HVAC adjustments to help customers shift their energy use to times when electricity is less constrained, less expensive, and cleaner... Over time, the parties expect to add devices like batteries and electric vehicles to the virtual power plant, expanding energy savings opportunities for customers...

Through the use of Google Cloud's data, analytics, and AI technology, NRG will be able to do things like better predict weather conditions, forecast wind and solar generation output, and create predictive pricing models, allowing for more efficient production and ultimately ensuring the home energy experience is seamless for customers.

Google Cloud will also offer "its AI and machine learning to determine the best time to cool or heat homes," reports Bloomberg, "based on a household's energy usage patterns and ambient temperatures."

It was less than a year ago that Renew Home was formed when Google spun off the load-shifting service for its "Google Nest" thermostats, which merged with load-shift management startup OhmConnect. Bloomberg describes this week's announcement as "Three of the biggest names in US home energy automation... coming together to offer some relief to the beleaguered Texas electrical grid."

But they point out that 1 gigawatt is roughly 1% of the record summer demand seen in Texas this year. Still, "The entire industry has been built to serve the peak load on the hottest day of the year," said Rasesh Patel, president of NRG's consumer unit. "This allows us to be a lot more smarter about demand in shaving the peak."

Can AI-Enabled Thermostats Create a 'Virtual Power Plant' in Texas?

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  • No. Obviously. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Seriously, what a load of bullshit bingo that was.

    The ultimate goal? "Create a nearly 1-gigawatt, AI-powered virtual power plant" — equivalent to 1.9 million solar panels, enough to power about 200,000 homes during peak demand.

    No, fuckwits, reducing demand by 1GW is not the same as generating an extra 1GW.
    A penny saved is not a penny earned.

    • Re:No. Obviously. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Monday November 11, 2024 @01:09AM (#64936071)

      reducing demand by 1GW is not the same as generating an extra 1GW.

      Reducing demand is better, because you don't even need to pay the cost of generation.

      We have this in California. PG&E attached a device to my central AC to shut it off during peak demand, and I get a discount in return.

      • by Guspaz ( 556486 )

        Doesn't peak demand usually happen when you need the AC the most? That seems like the worst time time shut off the AC. Seems like they should just do time of use billing instead.

        • Re:No. Obviously. (Score:5, Informative)

          by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Monday November 11, 2024 @02:16AM (#64936145)

          Doesn't peak demand usually happen when you need the AC the most?

          I live in a two-story house and work downstairs during the summer, which is cooler than upstairs.

          I turn on a fan, strip down to my skivvies, and don't schedule any Zoom calls.

          Hominids survived for three million years without AC.

          • by vyvepe ( 809573 )

            Hominids survived for three million years without AC.

            So why are they talking about increased death rates during heat waves?
            But otherwise I agree - AC is used much more than it is really needed.

            • So why are they talking about increased death rates during heat waves?

              Most people who die in heat waves are frail elderly.

              If you live with your sickly 95-year-old granny, perhaps you shouldn't sign up.

              But for healthy young people, it's fine.

              • By 2050, almost a quarter of the US is forecast to have at least one day over 125.

                The elderly or otherwise compromised are the canaries of this heat. Ignore them as 'normal' at your own peril.

            • Re:No. Obviously. (Score:5, Informative)

              by Powercntrl ( 458442 ) on Monday November 11, 2024 @03:39AM (#64936207) Homepage

              But otherwise I agree - AC is used much more than it is really needed.

              It depends on the local climate. Here in Florida, even if you can somehow tolerate the heat, the humidity will turn the inside of your home into a breeding ground for mold.

              Personally, life is too short to spend it miserable and sweaty. I'll cut other things out of my budget before I'll ever give up A/C. Also, I saw a rather hilarious TikTok video awhile back where someone was reacting to a Briton who'd complained that Americans use too much air conditioning. Turns out it's mostly just a misunderstanding over how much hotter it actually gets in the US, especially in the south. A lot of us here in Florida keep our homes at 75F (a little bit below 24C). That's actually on the warmer side of what kind of climate the UK naturally experiences, in summer.

              • I was new on the job, had to go to a conference in the US for the first time in my life. It was in Arizona. I asked my colleagues what to pack. They said a thick pullover. I thought they were pulling my leg. But they were right. AC was set so low there that I was happy to wear it. Oh and chips with breakfast. Weirdos.
              • That is nonsenses.
                UK has easy 36 - 37C summers, with 40 C in heat islands, aka big cities.

                • The biggest difference, especially in Florida and Texas, is the high humidity. Arizona at the same temperature feels pleasant. The heat capacity of water is so high and your sweat will not evaporate to cool you when the air is already saturated.

                  • Same problem in Bangkok.
                    Feels completely different than an island or north east Thailand with same objective temperature.

              • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                Nobody is suggesting giving up AC. This is about running the AC outside of peak times. There is nothing stopping you from dropping the temperature an extra degree, or the humidity an extra 5%, so that you can coast through the peak time without turning it on.

                Technology Connections made an informative video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

                He heats his home at night, when energy is cheap, and doesn't need to run the heating during the day, when energy is expensive.

              • Turns out it's mostly just a misunderstanding over how much hotter it actually gets in the US, especially in the south.

                Not at all. As a non-American who travels *A LOT* I can categorically say that America is the only country I've ever visited where I've needed to wear a jumper in the middle of a sweltering summer. There's a lot of space between "life to short to be miserable and sweaty" and the frigid temperatures many of you keep your houses at, even in the most humid of climates.

                And you don't need even remotely the amount of A/C most people use for mold control.

                A lot of us here in Florida keep our homes at 75F (a little bit below 24C).

                I've been to Florida a few times, plenty of people keep thei

                • As an American, I agree with you. I set the thermostat to 76F in summer. And 71-73 in winter, depending on humidity. I have a high tolerance for cold, and wear short sleeves and shorts outside at 40F. But I still hate having my home chilly in summer.

                • Fwiw, mold needs humidity above around %62 to grow. Used to grow commercially. Was important to know.
              • by kenh ( 9056 )

                Here in Florida, even if you can somehow tolerate the heat, the humidity will turn the inside of your home into a breeding ground for mold.

                I suspect that modern construction techniques are more responsible for this... If houses without A/C were "breeding grounds for mold" how did people live in houses in Florida before A/C was wide-spread/common? The answer is probably that the houses were designed to not capture heat/humidity inside but instead were well-ventilated.

              • Some of Texas can probably do it, but not all of it.

                SouthEast Texas climate is similar to that of Florida. The humidity outside as I type this is 65% and it goes much higher during certain times of the year.
                The AC units struggle to keep the humidity hovering around 50% indoors even it you're using a dehumidifier in conjunction with your AC.

                Once you cross that 50% threshold, you need to start worrying about mold growth. So it's more than just a matter of comfort.
                ( My AC is set for 75f during the daylight h

                • Resistance heaters are extremely inefficient. If you had a heat pump, it would pull about the same in heat mode as in cool mode.

            • by kenh ( 9056 )

              Hominids survived for three million years without AC.

              So why are they talking about increased death rates during heat waves?

              I once owned a 100 year-old house (no A/C) and discovered a few things:
              - Attic/Whole-house fans can work in a properly-designed house
              - Houses were designed to be cool (lots of windows, cross breezes, covered porches, etc.)

              Modern homes are designed to have A/C, so the houses become hot boxes without A/C.

              Let's not forget, thanks to modern medicine people are living longer, their bodies become frail as they age, and then they find themselves in a situation without proper cooling and perish.

          • Similar two story situation here, but I have no A/C. PG&E's idea of demand management a few years ago was a 2.5 day blackout. I had a 3 hour blackout 3 weeks ago, and the other side of town had one more recently. And for this I pay between $0.52 and $0.68 / kWh. Because this microclimate can have daily temperature excursions of 30+ F, in fall and early winter I often use a box fan to bring warm outside air into the house in the afternoon, to save on nighttime heating.

            I spent summers as a child in NE

            • by kenh ( 9056 )

              PG&E's idea of demand management a few years ago was a 2.5 day blackout. I had a 3 hour blackout 3 weeks ago, and the other side of town had one more recently. And for this I pay between $0.52 and $0.68 / kWh.

              No, you don't pay anything for electricity during a blackout - you only pay when PG&E deigns to provide you with electricity.

              • Just wait for the next moves of the California PUC. I'll probably be paying for imputed electricity consumption during blackouts.
          • "I white knuckle through it, so everyone else should pull up their bootstraps and white knuckle too".

          • Hominids survived for three million years without AC.

            Very true. They also survived for millions of years completely without electricity. So by your logic, why bother with this idea, just let the grid fail when overloaded, sure, some people may die but it's not going to wipe out the species, right?

        • If you turn your AC off for 15 minutes on one afternoon you won't notice a significant difference.

          If you can roll 15 minute shut offs across 10 million homes, at that peak time, you can reduce quite a bit of that peak.

          Works the same for using EV cars as peak shavers as well. If *everyone* has an EV and say 20% of them are plugged in at any one time during that afternoon peak, pulling 10% of the charge of those EVs, even if pay the consumer for the power, is cheaper for the grid and it's customers - and pe

          • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

            Not really that is just EV tax. You are putting wear and tear on other peoples stuff, rather than building additional capacity.

            You either spend more money on more grid and generation and see it in your electric bill, or you spend more money on more expensive autos with more management and added maintenance. You pay the bill in the vehicle sticker price and at the garage.

            • Not really that is just EV tax. You are putting wear and tear on other peoples stuff, rather than building additional capacity.

              It would have to be voluntary. There's no way you could do it otherwise. So, not a tax.

              To get people to be willing to allow their EV batteries to be used this way you'd have to pay them for it. Which could still be very cost-effective.

            • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              It's not a tax, you make more money than it costs you. The batteries in decent EVs will easily outlast the rest of the vehicle in most cases. Some Chinese manufacturers are so confident they even give you a lifetime warranty on the pack in certain markets.

              In fact it can actually be good for your car in certain circumstances, when you garage it and don't use it for an extended period of time.

              Same goes for home batteries. You make much more money selling energy back to the grid at peak times than it costs you

              • The lifetime warranty in China is probably because cars are disposable over there. Only %16 of cars are older than 8 years old. They must be scrapped by law after a certain time. It's uncommon to fix a car. You just scrap it and buy another.
                • Only %16 of cars are older than 8 years old.

                  That's a misleading statistic.

                  Few old cars are on the road in China because few people had cars eight years ago.

                  • Don't try to bullshit us. Youre telling us a picture of roads in China from 2010 or even 2000 is gonna just be a few people driving around? We're arent talking about the rural dirt poor peasants here.
                    • The number of cars in China literally tripled from 2012-2022. That's going to seriously reduce the *percent* of older cars on the road.

                • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                  It's not just in China, some other Asian countries too.

                  They don't just scrap those batteries either, they are really valuable.

        • by AvitarX ( 172628 )

          If the system is actually smart (as in well designed, it doesn't really need AI) and my thermostat is set to 70 (or programmed to come on at 70) it'll cool my house to 68 before the peak demand.

          Then I don't need to run AC during the peak.

          There's potential here to balance the grid, unfortunately, in implementation these systems this far haven't pre cooled the house before the expected power shortfall and instead just turn off the AC when it comes, angering people and causing them to withdraw from the program

        • Systems like this don't usually shut off AC, but rather just adjust the temperature slightly. If anything it may make America temporarily "normal" and by that I mean stop this insane practice of making it cold enough to need to wear a jumper indoors during the middle of summer. And that's before we discuss the wasteful practice of cooling when no one is home.

          There's a lot you can do to shave power while still remaining comfortable.

        • See, they'll pre-chill the house to 35 degrees Fahrenheit in the morning when you wake up. Then you can freeze until the temperature gets back up to 90 during the later half of peak demand.

        • Doesn't peak demand usually happen when you need the AC the most? That seems like the worst time time shut off the AC.

          I have a TOU rate schedule on which I pay $.05/kWh most of the day but $0.25/kWh from 3 PM to 8 PM. I set my thermostat so that at 2 PM the house is cooled to 68F. Then from 3 PM to 8 PM the thermostat is set at 90F, which means the A/C basically never comes on as long as people keep the doors closed. As a nice side effect, I have found it much easier to convince my family to keep the doors closed by telling them "You're going to make the house hot" than "You're going to increase the electric bill", since

        • by kenh ( 9056 )

          Doesn't peak demand usually happen when you need the AC the most? That seems like the worst time time shut off the AC. Seems like they should just do time of use billing instead.

          I grew up in a home with such a device - its fine, you don't notice the outages in my experience.

          The cuts, as I recall, were brief, say 15-30 minutes I guess, and here's how it works:
          - Your house is already cooled to 72 degrees in hot weather
          - The power company cuts off your A/C for 15 or 30 minutes
          - Your house raises an imperceptible amount in those 15-30 minutes
          - The power company restores power to the A/C
          - Your A/C kicks in, cools the house back to 72 degrees

          The idea is the power company rotates the outa

      • We have this in California. PG&E attached a device to my central AC to shut it off during peak demand, and I get a discount in return.

        The real savvy thing to do would be to install a bunch of mini splits but leave the central HVAC equipment in place. Then you'll get the discount and still have air conditioning. Win/win.

      • But why did you propagate the vacuous Subject? I can understand trying to salvage the discussion from AC FP BS, but... Yours was the second of 35 uses of the fool's Subject, spanning about half of the discussion.

        Time for another diatribe on AC abuses? Such abuses almost always stem from the negative side of anonymity. There is a positive side and justification for some anonymity. The most obvious case is when an insider has reason to believe that truths should be revealed to the public (or even the police)

      • We have this in California. PG&E attached a device to my central AC to shut it off during peak demand, and I get a discount in return.

        Volunteering to be last in the queue for power can save you a few bucks. Nice. Don't expect a lot of people to willingly participate. "I choose to suffer on the most intense days to help my fellow cryptominers earn more money" is not really an enticing idea.

    • by vlad30 ( 44644 )
      Where I am we had a company called Pooled Energy they tried to do the same thing with swimming pools they went bust fairly quickly

      https://www.aer.gov.au/news/articles/communications/aer-ensures-continued-supply-former-pooled-energy-and-weston-energy-customers

    • AI= Wasted power (Score:5, Insightful)

      by stooo ( 2202012 ) on Monday November 11, 2024 @03:11AM (#64936179) Homepage

      AI means waste 1GW of power in some big ass datacenter 24/365 in order to try to gain 1GW 20% of the time.
      Yeah. Nope.
      It does not need AI to modify slightly the temperature of thermostats to optimize energy consumption.
      Regular prediction and interconnection will do.

      • Nope. Datacentres are used for *training* AI models. Once a model is trained it doesn't require the datacentre to burn power to implement. The actual use of AI models for practical purposes often can be run off a small battery powered device. You know like the "AI powered" theft detection recently rolled out to Android phones.

        No datacentre is sitting around analysing the accelerometer data of 2 billion mobile phones simultaneously in realtime.

        • Depends on the size of the model. Most LLMs like ChatGPT are running off $10K graphics cards because the RAM alone isn't enough - you need the right kind of processor to run it quickly.

          But you're right that the AI for the thermostats won't require much. And calling it AI for the buzzwords is probably overselling it as it's probably a much simpler neural net just to use the buzzword at all. It probably doesn't even need that.

          • luckily the inference for a thermostat isn't going to be very big. There just aren't a lot of data points for it to act on. And the patterns are very cyclic in nature.

    • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

      And things like heating and cooling have peak times for a reason. Being told "everyone else is using their heating so you have to stay cold" won't go down very well. All you can do is defer things which are not time critical, like the laundry or dish washing etc.

      • Being told "everyone else is using their heating so you have to stay cold" won't go down very well.

        These schemes tend to pre-heat or pre-cool ahead of peak. You still won't be comfortable, but you'll be freezing on summer mornings and melting in winters.

        Meanwhile, people who aren't home during the day and are at work see no benefit because in the evening post-peak when they get home their AC is behind on cooling just the same.

        • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

          These schemes tend to pre-heat or pre-cool ahead of peak.

          Exactly, so it just shifts the peak.

          You still won't be comfortable, but you'll be freezing on summer mornings and melting in winters.

          Exactly.

    • A penny saved is not a penny earned.

      Of course it is. If you didn't spend it you get to keep it. You earned that penny by not spending it, even though Ben Franklin wasn't the one [snopes.com] who came up with the saying.

    • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

      I say this as someone who - would characterize W. Bush as an alright guy who made some serious and unforgivable mistakes in terms of ever being taken seriously on policy again.

      "We can't conserve our way to independence"

      was one of the truly insightful lines, from that decade of American politics

    • Step 1: Slap on an AI label to existing technology
      Step 2: ???
      Step 3: Profit!

  • That's not AI. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by engineer37 ( 6205042 ) on Monday November 11, 2024 @01:10AM (#64936073)
    That's just someone turning up your thermostat when demand is too high for the available supply. This is really just about how they want to own and control your thermostat instead of you.
    • This is really just about how they want to own and control your thermostat instead of you.

      The easiest way to make sure all my heating and cooling decisions are made in my families best interest is to make them myself. That way there is absolutely no confusion.

      • You don't have to sign up for it.

        You can continue to manually control your thermostat.

        But you'll pay more for your electricity.

        I signed up for a similar scheme in California. I'm happy with the savings, and barely noticed the power adjustments.

        • by kenh ( 9056 )

          Exactly.

          • You can continue to manually control your thermostat. But you'll pay more for your electricity.

            Good thing I worked hard all my life so I can have a good retirement and afford heating and cooling so that I am always comfortable.

      • by kenh ( 9056 )

        This is really just about how they want to own and control your thermostat instead of you.

        The easiest way to make sure all my heating and cooling decisions are made in my families best interest is to make them myself. That way there is absolutely no confusion.

        How can you determine what's best for your family without AI? /sarcasm

    • Re: That's not AI. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by votsalo ( 5723036 ) on Monday November 11, 2024 @02:07AM (#64936139)
      Software has been renamed "AI". Didn't you get the memo?
    • Re:That's not AI. (Score:5, Informative)

      by cliffjumper222 ( 229876 ) on Monday November 11, 2024 @02:15AM (#64936143)

      I get where you're coming from - it can feel like utilities are just grabbing control of your thermostat when the grid gets overloaded. That’s essentially what traditional Demand Response (DR) is: when there’s a risk of a brownout or blackout, the utility sends out a signal to participating devices (like your thermostat) to cut back on power usage. It’s a straightforward mechanism to prevent the grid from failing, and it’s valuable enough that it’s traded on the energy markets, both for the promise to reduce demand if needed and for the actual reduction itself.

      But this new approach goes beyond just nudging the thermostat up when demand peaks. It’s about leveraging predictive algorithms and machine learning to intelligently manage energy consumption. Instead of a simple override, the system can now learn the thermal profile of each home. By monitoring how fast the house heats or cools, considering outside temperature, insulation, and the efficiency of the HVAC system, it builds a unique thermal model for your home. It’s like the system gets to know your house’s behavior, including how long it can coast without needing active heating or cooling.

      Armed with this information, the system can make smarter decisions. Instead of just cranking up the thermostat when things get tight, it might pre-cool your home when energy is cheap or demand is low. By doing this, it takes advantage of the house’s thermal inertia, letting the temperature drift up naturally when demand spikes later in the day. It’s not simply raising the set point; it’s anticipating the demand curve and optimizing your energy use in advance. This way, you stay comfortable while the system reduces the overall load during peak hours.

      This isn’t a one-size-fits-all approach either. The machine learning aspect comes into play as the system continuously learns from new data. It tracks how your home responds to changes, how quickly temperatures shift, and even how you react to different temperature settings. Over time, it adjusts its strategy based on this feedback, getting better at finding the sweet spot between energy savings and comfort. It’s a dynamic process that adapts to your preferences, rather than imposing a blanket rule.

      It’s also worth mentioning that modern DR programs are typically opt-in, with incentives for participation. You get to choose whether you want to take part, and in exchange, you often receive rebates or lower rates. It’s less about taking away control and more about offering a smarter, more flexible way to manage energy that benefits both you and the grid. If you’re open to the idea, these systems can help save money, reduce strain on the infrastructure, and even prevent outages.

      So, while the term "AI" might seem like buzzword marketing, there’s actually substance behind it. This isn’t just a utility flipping a switch on your thermostat. It’s about using predictive algorithms and adaptive learning to orchestrate energy use in a way that balances comfort, cost, and grid stability. It’s a step up from the old DR methods, aiming to optimize rather than simply cut back.

      Source: I design DR systems for smart thermostats

      • by vyvepe ( 809573 )
        People can sell their home temperature variability to utilities. It may be worth it for many. Especially if they can set limits on the maximum difference from the optimal setting.
      • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

        That all sounds good other than AI being pretty needless. Outside of a few corner cases around unusual structures, most of the thermal behavior of housing and commercial buildings in a given locality are pretty similar ; those suburban neighborhoods went up at the same time with the same building codes. So you have clusters of 150 houses all alike...

        A cursory understanding of Newton's law of cooling, and how heat pumps work, coupled with the local weather report is all you need to come up with a heating a

        • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

          You don't really need machine learning for stuff like this, but it can help.

          And you don't necessarily have to make it so the thermostate goes way up or down.

          What you can do is have a bunch of thermostats moderate their A/C compressor use - the A/C compressor is usually only running part of the time anyways. If your A/C compressor needs to be on for 15 minutes, then off for 30, it might help the grid if instead of randomly turning on, it's scheduled in.

          If your house profile is known, it may be possible to pr

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Any reasonable implementation keeps you in control. You might, for example, choose to allow your thermostat to go one 0.5 degrees lower than the set point, when the power company requests it, in exchange for a discount on the energy you use.

      You won't notice a 0.5C difference in temperature, but having your AC kick in half an hour earlier so that it can then coast through a peak without needing to switch on can result in a significant cost saving.

      We have a similar thing with car chargers in the UK. You can t

  • This is gonna end well.

    * hops online and orders more popcorn *

  • by rossdee ( 243626 ) on Monday November 11, 2024 @02:59AM (#64936173)

    just turn off the AI at times of peak energy demand.

  • by tiqui ( 1024021 )

    A thermostat that's programmed to keep somebody from being as warm or cold as they need to be does not "generate" ANYTHING but anger. What arrogant bastard is going to tell a thermostat to abuse somebody who might actually have a medical condition that REQUIRES them to run their thermostat a bit warmer or cooler? Who the hell gave these monsters the right to determine how warm or how cool somebody else's house will be?

    Just slapping the letters "AI" onto some dishonest, and arguably evil scheme MIGHT be en

  • Why do some people keep wasting their reader's time with such nonsense?
  • Nest thermostat activates a "Rush Hour" on top of "Eco Mode" whenever the electric utility indicates a need to save power.
    • 2/ Yes, this is dumb terminology throwing around the "AI" buzzword and marketing wank to try to fool people into believing additional generation capacity exists when it doesn't.
  • The concept isn't new. In the early 1970s (yea, like 50+ years ago) the US Government told people to set the thermostat down to stop heating homes to outrageous highs like 70F or so... and stick with lower temps and energy could be saved.

    That's true.

    But the problem is people didn't like to "wear blanket and coats" in their houses, so that went nowhere.

    Now it's being called "virtual power plant." The gist is the same -- If you don't use power at peak times, and since we build power infrastructure for peak

  • ...have always an hard time [xkcd.com].
  • Using less power isn't making more power.

    But more importantly, also no number of AI thermostats which don't cooperate can do this.

    What makes it work is cooperation, not AI.

    Cooperation is for commies though, so Texas will be against it.

  • It is control, which you will never get back.

    Other places already do this with electric water heaters, the heater itself is set to a higher than normal temperature and a mixing valve is required to make it safe from burning you. When power is in high demand the utility commands the heater to go to a 'normal' low temperature setting until power is once again abundant. Since water heaters have plenty of short term reserve heat (they are well insulated) this doesn't effect the customer usually.

    But doing
  • .....so we don't need to buy a new powerstation

    It won't save much electricity, but we get to run your heating off when it's cold, and A/C when it's hot ...

    • If rate payers owned the power company it would make sense. because they could vote on the matter and decide for themselves how best to spend the money of the shared resource.

      In this era of private power companies, they can fuck right off. Their business is not my business.

  • This is one of the funniest stories I've read in a long time. So the facts of the story is that thermostats are switching power usage to non-peak times; this makes the houses slightly less comfortable but it keeps prices down for everyone. Giving something minor up for the common good? That's socialism, pretty much the definition.

    But we now have a generation of gullible conservatives who have been skinner-trained to panic whenever socialism is mentioned (they are everywhere, but Texas is completely infes

    • Win for everyone

      It's not. It's a win for the wealthy. The People become a little less comfortable and they become more rich and add more numbers to their bank account that they will never spend in their lifetime, creating generational wealth that will be spent to keep down future generations of plebes whose lives will be made still more uncomfortable so that rich people can get still richer.

      This is the opposite of a win for everyone. Pry more money out of their wallets, built more renewables, people can continue to be comf

    • Socialism would be connecting Texas to the national grid. This is capitalism. Base load generation is cheaper. If they can keep their kWh price the same but use less of the expensive peaking power, they make more profit.

      • by kqs ( 1038910 )

        Connecting to the grid would be socialism? Large wealthy companies, cooporating for mutual benefits and enrichment, is not socialism.

        OP is definitely done with a capitalist motive; power companies want to reap profits without paying to improve the infrastructure. But the socialist part is that, given that rich Texas power companies will not improve their grid, ordinary consumers are instead choosing to give up some control of the cooling in their house, in order to insure that there will be power in peak

        • Connecting to the grid would be socialism?

          No. But indirectly, it takes power from more individual utilities and gives consumers more choice.

          But the socialist part is that, given that rich Texas power companies will not improve their grid, ordinary consumers are instead choosing to give up some control of the cooling in their house, in order to insure that there will be power in peak times.

          Not really. That is capitalism on both sides. Consumers saving money through some scheme or another is still a capitalist motive even if it relies on other people doing the same.

    • ...Giving something minor up for the common good? That's socialism, pretty much the definition.

      But we now have a generation of gullible conservatives who have been skinner-trained to panic whenever socialism is mentioned...

      I don't think the problem is that people (even conservatives) are unwilling to give up something minor for the common good. The problem is that the request is coming from a group that has been known to renege on their end of the bargain.

      Admittedly not the same group, but consider the "two weeks to flatten the curve" request, where everyone was asked to give up something minor for the common good. Regardless of whether you believe the outcome was justified or not, the undeniable fact was that the original pi

      • by kqs ( 1038910 )

        Admittedly not the same group, but consider the "two weeks to flatten the curve" request, where everyone was asked to give up something minor for the common good. Regardless of whether you believe the outcome was justified or not, the undeniable fact was that the original pitch was two weeks of lockdowns and turned into way, way more than anyone would have agreed to if the outcome was known up front.

        I find it very notable what you picked as your first (and presumably most damning) example. In March 2020, COVID-19 was a new virus which was known to be deadly but almost nothing was known about it, including how it was transmitted. By the end, well over a million people died from it, including a large number of young and healthy people. The US government (along with most other governments) did not know what the best advice to give was, so they said what was the best known advice at the time, with the c

  • 1 GW is about 1/9th of NRG Energy's total capacity. Not everyone is going to sign up for this, so people with these thermostats may be looking at duty cycles of potentially less than 75%. The typical duty cycle of a properly sized air conditioner during a 5 month Texas summer is 70-80% ... on those extra hot days which Texas is having more and more of, ACs run continuously.

    NRG Energy has no incentive to cool your house and there isn't much of a window in the AC duty cycle to really squeeze out a big wi
  • The reason I don't want a Nest thermostat in my house is that Google wants to slurp up ever more data. As long as the details of my life are used against me, for more and more advertising and who knows what else, I won't be partaking in this scam.

  • No thinks.

    I once bought a house that had a device connected to the air conditioner unit, that allowed the utility company to turn off the unit if electricity demand got too high. It was touted as an energy-saving measure, that could save me 20% on my electricity bill. This was a thing 25 years ago. I had the device taken off as soon as I could get somebody to do it. No, no thanks. Not then, and not now, even if it is "AI" enabled.

  • The old grid, that needs maintenance and upgrade, will be not upgraded in a timely manner because we can save a little energy by smarter usage? Is that what they are thinking?

    I mean, reducing usage is good, especially if it is no impact to the end users... But, that said, I doubt there will be no impact.

    Like, for example, the hottest part of the day is when many people are at work, great. but if my house heats up by 20 degrees, while I am home sick/my wife/kids are then, is there planned to be an overr

Dennis Ritchie is twice as bright as Steve Jobs, and only half wrong. -- Jim Gettys

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