PC Shipments Stuck in Neutral Despite AI Buzz (theregister.com) 81
The PC market is not showing many signs of a rebound, despite the hype around AI PCs, with market watchers split over whether unit shipments are up or down slightly. From a report: Those magical AI PC boxes were supposed to fire up buyer enthusiasm and spur the somewhat listless market for desktop and laptop systems into significant growth territory, but that doesn't appear to be happening. According to the latest figures from Gartner, global PC shipments totaled 62.9 million units during Q3 of this year, representing a 1.3 percent decline compared with the same period last year. However, this does follow three consecutive quarters of modest growth.
"Even with a full line-up of Windows-based AI PCs for both Arm and x86 in the third quarter of 2024, AI PCs did not boost the demand for PCs since buyers have yet to see their clear benefits or business value," commented Gartner Director Analyst Mikako Kitagawa. This is perhaps understandable when AI PCs are largely just a marketing concept, and vendors can't agree on exactly what the the definition of an AI PC should be. Even worse, some buyers of Arm-based Copilot+ machines discovered that their performance isn't actually very good with some applications.
"Even with a full line-up of Windows-based AI PCs for both Arm and x86 in the third quarter of 2024, AI PCs did not boost the demand for PCs since buyers have yet to see their clear benefits or business value," commented Gartner Director Analyst Mikako Kitagawa. This is perhaps understandable when AI PCs are largely just a marketing concept, and vendors can't agree on exactly what the the definition of an AI PC should be. Even worse, some buyers of Arm-based Copilot+ machines discovered that their performance isn't actually very good with some applications.
You mean Windows on ARM ? (Score:2)
Windows on ARM has failed before for the same reasons it will fail now - because nothing works on it, not even Office is complete.
And the x86 devices from yesterday can still run AI without it, training AI happens in the datacenter on Intel+nVIDIA.
Re:You mean Windows on ARM ? (Score:5, Interesting)
For most people AI and Copilot are irrelevant as well.
Most of the PCs are for gaming, surfing and business bread and butter cases where most of the processors the last 10 years are quite sufficient.
The remaining are for data analysis and simulations where you'd get a benefit from the bleeding edge machines. Some servers like web servers and virtualization hypervisors also get a benefit from higher CPU performance.
X86 Windows 32bit will never not be needed (Score:1)
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Only gamers care about performance of 32 bit windows software now, because for everyone else they either need to run it on the bare metal for hardware support reasons or the code will run faster in emulation on a modern ARM than it did on any of the original hardware. And of the gamers, it's only those who play old games that it matters to at all, and most of those will run great in emulation on modern machines as well. If they don't, they probably won't run on a modern OS at all since Windows' backwards co
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Except when it doesn't run at all, like Google Drive for example. Microsoft seems to be tone deaf to the fact that there is value in 40 years of EVERYTHING WORKS, no matter the software or peripheral you want to use, it's the de facto standard,
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Likewise "40 years of EVERYTHING WORKS" is somewhat subjective. For routine programs that is largely true. However back circa Windows 2000 and XP they liked to change the device driver m
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most of those will run great in emulation on modern machines as well
If it requires 3D hardware acceleration from around the XP era, then nope it won't. VMs are inadequate for that use case. (No real support for a virtual nVidia / ATI GPU that's compatible with the older drivers, and no virtual custom GPU outside of Linux guests.) Wine is also a non-starter due to it's ever increasing memory requirements caused by it's constant chasing of a moving target. Without any consideration given for older software needs. (Example: User32 has bunch of additional code that those 32bit
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If it requires 3D hardware acceleration from around the XP era, then nope it won't. VMs are inadequate for that use case.
I have had decent results with vmware player, though that has become increasingly unusable, especially with modern kernels. Still, the graphics support was very good.
wined3d continues to improve, if I really wanted to run old windows software though I'd keep an old laptop. I really do need to remember to see if I can find my Dt166, I was just thinking about it the other day. It does a great job of running DOS, it has 2d accelerated VGA graphics which make it very compatible with cheap available displays, an
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It's true
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Copilot and Arm-Windows are silly.
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I wouldn't be desperately optimistic about client ARM Windows(especially since both AMD and Intel's more recent forays into laptop chips have suggested that they can actually put in pretty solid battery life along with the x86 compatibility you'd expect from an x86 when made sufficiently nervous about it;
That required the march of time. The level of performance we expect now cannot be delivered by ARM without consuming more power than they were formerly known for. It isn't so much that AMD or Intel got that much better at PM, it's that workloads left the point where ARM could do them cheaper. Remember when Intel had StrongARM? It was the fastest ARM around, but it was also the most power-hungry by far.
Itanium boxes were premium-priced gear(and, admittedly, did have some of the neat old-school-big-iron-UNIX RAS and similar features); so watching your x86 workload get stomped by considerably cheaper x86s was pretty miserable; but the real nail in the coffin was that IA64 was also pretty underwhelming when running native(there were a few applications that really did like it; but results in general were not encouraging).
Yes, Intel promised a magic compiler which never materialized.
if everything you do is browser-based it becomes less clear why you'd necessarily go Windows;
In fact, it is clear that you don't want to r
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What is an Apple Safari Skin?
And what has that to do with running Chrom?
My old iPad had both. Completely different browser. Did not matter that the use the same rendering and JavaScript engine.
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What is an Apple Safari Skin?
And what has that to do with running Chrom?
My old iPad had both. Completely different browser. Did not matter that the use the same rendering and JavaScript engine.
AHAHhahaHAHahAHAHAHahAHA
*wheeze*
AHBahAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH
It is NOT a "completely different browser" if it is using the same rendering engine and shitty slow incompatible pathetic javascript engine. You don't seem to know the meaning of the words "completely", "different", or "browser".
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a) it is a different browser - different user interface, different capabilities, different menus, different amount of open tabs, different strategy, how to "reload" its state when terminated and reopened and so on ...
b) The Apple JavaScript engine was the fastest at that time. That is exactly why they forbade other ones. They did not want their device to be blamed for other companies browsers misbehavior. Secondly, for other "programs" it was forbidden to JIT compile to machine code. But the Apple engine di
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For most people AI and Copilot are irrelevant as well.
Wrong point of view. Many people are taking advantage of "AI" without ever actually knowing it. It is relevant to them. However what isn't relevant to them is throwing dedicated hardware at the problem. We frankly don't do anything critical which needs it. For the things we do which are less critical, existing GPUs can grunt the problem away fast enough for most users. We are just not in the position to need new dedicated hardware for this yet.
Which is weird because... (Score:2)
Office on Mac works well enough that I have no trouble these days exchanging documents with Windows users.
Office on Mac Intel, Office on Mac ARM, both work fine.
So, somebody at Microsoft understands how to write cross-platform applications.
Does it work because they are using the macOS tool chain?
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Office on Mac is not Office for Windows, it is a completely different application. It works, yes, because they used the Apple tools to transition (even that took longer than necessary) and because the core was once built by competent programmers.
But that doesn't translate to Office, where Outlook is a completely different beast which even talks to the server on different protocols (they never would switch to WebDAV whereas Entourage was built with it natively and even EWS is not exactly the same for Outlook
What exactly *is* an "AI PC" (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: What exactly *is* an "AI PC" (Score:3)
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Re: What exactly *is* an "AI PC" (Score:2)
I recently needed a new laptop and was actively looking to avoid anything with AI on the box.
I'd wager that for every buyer who is excited by an AI PC, there is another who is completely put off by the idea, and that the vast majority of people are in the 'meh' category.
Re:What exactly *is* an "AI PC" (Score:5, Funny)
It's like having a brother on your computer that watches over your shoulders and helps you with things like providing you with interesting offers from Microsoft's partners and give a real time view of what you are doing on your computer to the government.
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It's like having a brother on your computer that watches over your shoulders and helps you with things like providing you with interesting offers from Microsoft's partners and give a real time view of what you are doing on your computer to the government.
It's the "interesting offers" that are my biggest turnoff. I do not need the OS provider using my platform for their advertising. The only time I use Windows is in a VM for the few apps that I use that are only available via Windows...and even then I'm starting to use Coherence mode (I use Parallels on a Mac) so I don't even see the Windows desktop at all, just the application.
Re:What exactly *is* an "AI PC" (Score:5, Funny)
Re: What exactly *is* an "AI PC" (Score:2)
Don't forget unwanted autocorrect activities too.
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Re: What exactly *is* an "AI PC" (Score:1)
I thought it's pre-loaded with Turbodong 2000 AI fart videos.
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AI PC mostly means it has an NPU.
I am sure (Score:2)
I am sure just about everyone here told relatives and friends to avoid Windows 11 like a plague. I know I have. But that is hard to avoid paying for it with the Microsoft tax.
So, I know I have suggested Apple and for one person I will be finding a referb Thinkpad and put MX on it for her. I wonder how many people here have done the same.
Granted Apple is not a great deal better that windows with it spyware. But Apple does not have anything like CoPilot plus I heard you can disable Apple's phone-home func
Re:I am sure (Score:5, Insightful)
The millions of businesses that are "vendor locked in" all seem to shrug and pay for the next release without much thought. The main argument is that it's just too much work and expense to change or fix. It's going to really have to hurt before they rip the bandage off.
The trend that I perceive is that your Microsoft, Apple, VMWare, Cisco, Adobe, all the giants, they just shove the horseshit down your throat, take the inevitable customer attrition, but since they increase prices, because youre supposedly getting " new, improved, stays crunchy even in milk" technology.. Profits are way up even if customers are leaving.
So you may be able to work around with Linux, but the average Joe will enjoy the new higher prices and invasive surveillance whether they like it or not. Once our generation is dead, no one will remember freedom of choice... or freedom at all... I think it's already here for anyone under about 30.
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Everyone here? That's not a lot of people anymore. We don't have much influence.
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Mac with Apple spyware? To which spyware do you refer?
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Mac with Apple spyware? To which spyware do you refer?
Macs now phone home when running apps [stackexchange.com] by default. If the "notarization" is not "stapled" for whatever reason, they will do it on every launch.
Apple also collects telemetry by default, though you can opt out.
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You should read the link you posted.
No, the apps do not phone home.
Gatekeeper does, because he wants to check about that app.
And IMHO, that is completely okay.
Re: I am sure (Score:2)
You should read what I wrote, it's not what you responded to.
Why would you buy brand new obsolete stuff? (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you honestly believe that anything "AI" you buy now is going to cut it in a few months? Anyone who's surprised hasn't been around long enough to learn not to sink their money into manic trends.
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What do you mean by "cut it"?
I am not excited by the prospect of an "AI" accelerated CPU because I have a tolerably powerful GPU, and because only the new and thus expensive parts have this label slapped on them. I am only now upgrading from Zen+ to Zen3 and to a system with PCIe 4.0 for reasons of being a cheap bastard. But how many people out there are really excited to spend big money on a PC right now? A very small percentage of people, almost all of whom are computer professionals, have both the inclin
Re: Why would you buy brand new obsolete stuff? (Score:1)
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If the market were strong, layoffs would not be in the rise.
Disagree. The market being strong simply means it's trading high. It doesn't mean anything about the health of the overall economy, which is hollow because it doesn't share profits with the workers that make it successful. Abuse them long and hard enough and the system will collapse in on itself because those workers won't be able to afford to buy products. We are seeing this already, it is exactly what is going on here with soft PC sales. When people have money, they spend it! When billionaires spend money
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I think most people are just waiting to see what happens with Windows 10, such is supposed to be EOL next year. If Microsoft doesn't reverse course and consigns millions of PCs to landfill, people will either make the decision to upgrade then or just switch to something like a Chromebook or even just a tablet for their computing needs.
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...people will either make the decision to upgrade then or just switch to something like a Chromebook or even just a tablet for their computing needs.
Or forgo them completely. One of my adult sons never replaced his broken laptop a decade ago, and the other has never had one. Today's "phones" are more capable then yesteryear's towers.
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PC Gamers are moving to Linux in larger numbers than ever before thanks to the good work from the Wine team, Valve, and others. We are of course still a small slice of the market, but Windows 11 has spurred a surge of interest in Linux.
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Yes I can. The reason I can believe this is because despite all the hype about new hardware virtually all consumer AI applications run perfectly fine on 3year old non-dedicated a hardware. If you are playing games, you likely have a powerful enough GPU to run any current AI application from an end user point of view already (not talking about generating new models here, but simply applying existing ones.)
AI on PCs is for the ad guys, not users... (Score:2, Insightful)
The AI on PCs is intended for the people to sling ads and go through your files to figure out the most salient, salable data points. It isn't for the end user.
Why should end users bother upgrading so Big Brother has a sharper and more focused camera lens?
Focus on what makes a PC "good" (Score:3, Insightful)
Focus on the things that matter.
3D, Blockchain, AI (Score:5, Informative)
"AI PC" is just the latest buzz-term to try and convince consumers to replace their existing, perfectly serviceable, products.
Despite the marketing hype of "everyone can be a creative," the majority of domestic PC use is browser-based, with a little letter-writing and casual gaming. In the corporate world, it's mostly browser/native in-house apps and Word/Excel/Outlook, often via thin-client. Neither use-case benefits from "AI," certainly not to the extent of spending significant cash.
The next bump in hardware sales will only happen when Win10 goes EoL. Domestic users will discover that MS has arbitrarily locked them out of an OS upgrade, and the choice is either new hardware or Linux.
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They'd clearly like everyone to rush out and buy a shiny new 'Copilot+ PC with Windows 11 and Office 365'; but that's just not going to happen in a great many cases; and we've seen behavior in the past(eg. having Windows Update function normally even on PCs that have failed activation for a prolonged period of time) that suggests that they know that a major threat to their customers is their poorer or less enthusiastic customers running
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...buy a shiny new 'Copilot+ PC with Windows 11 and Office 365'...
And here's going to be another problem - Joe/Joanne User doesn't know (or care) about the difference between ARM and x86/64, but will be mightily pissed off if their new Windows PC won't run their favourite app properly, or at all.
Apple users are used to the fundamental architecture & instruction set being changed every few years, and being told to suck it up if stuff doesn't work on the "new hotness."
On the other hand, Windows users - and the media - are so vocal that a hefty chunk of every new OS ver
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but will be mightily pissed off if their new Windows PC won't run their favourite app properly, or at all.
What is their favourite app? No one is buying these low powered devices for gaming. No one considers antivirus or security software their favourite app. Major apps already support ARM, and for virtually everything else Prism will handle translation transparently, even for 64bit applications.
Just as we saw with the first roll-out of ChromeBooks, I foresee lots of dissatisfied customers returning ARM-based Windows machines.
ARM machines have been on the market now for 5 years. While they haven't sold spectacularly well, they also haven't seen any massive returns or disgruntled users either. Having used a Surface Pro X many times I suspect m
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What is their favourite app? No one is buying these low powered devices for gaming. No one considers antivirus or security software their favourite app. Major apps already support ARM, and for virtually everything else Prism will handle translation transparently, even for 64bit applications.
Well, from my real-world support experience, I've had to downgrade many a 64-bit Windows installation to 32-bit to support either drivers for niche hardware (and that the users won't change - scanner drivers were a notorious culprit), or ancient 16-bit Windows apps that the user can't live without (and the user is insufficiently sophisticated to deal with a VM).
Remember, there are many people running Windows 10 on the Windows 7 hardware they bought early last decade and, with maxed RAM and an SSD, is workin
What's the point of local AI? (Score:2)
Superresolution and distilling of a local data search index, that's about it. Even if you use AI search of your local data, it will probably use remote models in the process since they are just so much better.
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Privacy.
If you think people's search engine terms can be revealing, wait until you see what people type at Enterprise Autocorrect.
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it will probably use remote models in the process since they are just so much better.
So the MS feature everyone is mad about only uses a local model. MS has performance requirements to be called an AI PC specifically so it can run the local models. The issue wasn't the processing it was the storage. It was (haven't seen a analysis of their updated version) trivially easy to steal the database of screenshots if you got access to the PC.
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If you got access to a logged in account someone will put something on github to still make it trivial. If Recall can access it, you can access it.
What does this DO for me? (Score:4, Funny)
Ok, wise salesguys, what does this magic AI enabled chip actually DO for me? Why should I want it?
I'm waiting for you answer.
Still waiting.
No answer? Then why should I buy it? I don't need it. I don't want if. You act all surprised that tacking on the letters AI aren't magically selling new PCs. The marketing hype still has sailsdroids brainwashed on this useless crap and someone still has enough money to bombard us with unwarranted praise for AI every five seconds.
It's like how Windows 8 tried to turn desktop PCs in to large cell phones. Nobody wanted that.
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Ok, wise salesguys, what does this magic AI enabled chip actually DO for me? Why should I want it?
imagine playing a game, like strategy or rpg, and the game implements a way to display the game world to your computers "AI" interface in text format .. as well as enabling the "AI" to call functions in your game, in real time, to control the NPCs.. and you could use anyones "AI" software implementation instructed exactly the way you wanted, you could actually have diplomatic negotiations with other factions or council of war with your generals and governors .. keeping track of everything that needs to be i
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I got some very promising results with very little effort by prompting with a json string that describes the game world, characters, event history, game state, in detail..
If you have to prompt with all of that stuff every time then the results are going to be weird and unpredictable, mostly in that it will be difficult to keep track of prior conversations. In current games where the NPCs are clearly very stupid we will tolerate them repeating phrases, including those which do not really apply. You also can't just have it trained on a general corpus; if there is any chance that the NPC is going to say something untoward, and it might slip through a simple word filter, then th
Too expensive (Score:2)
20 years ago I would upgrade my PC a few times a year because PC related parts were sanely priced and it was fun. Today, not so much. When run of the mill motherboards cost $200+ and CPU upgrades year to year offer little to no performance benefit then what's the point? The icing on the cake is that Windows has become absolute shit removing the fun out of building and upgrading PCs. Sure, Linux is an option, but it's not even close to being ready for every day desktop adoption sadly. The tech industry is sl
Re: Too expensive (Score:2)
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CPU upgrades year to year offer little to no performance benefit
Are we really complaining about this? I'm perfectly happy to not feel the need to upgrade more often for performance reasons. I ran my main PC with a 4790K for over 5 years. I replaced it with a 9900XE (OK I might have gone a bit overboard but I run a lot of VMs for work/play so it made sense) in 2020 and I expect to run that until at least 2026 or 2027 before I will actually need to upgrade, and then probably more for faster PCIE/RAM speeds than CPU being too old.
This reminds me of people complaining a
When OS security updates drive hardware purchases (Score:2)
This reminds me of people complaining about new phones not being huge upgrades over last year's model. GOOD! It means it's mature and you don't need to buy a new one every year to get a bunch of cool feature or performance upgrades.
Unless it's to the effect: "I buy a new PC or phone because it comes with a new operating system, giving me security updates and continued access to the client applications for network services that I use. A new PC or phone used to come with responsiveness improvement alongside a renewed operating system update commitment. Now it has become a red queen's race just to stay current with the operating system."
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For me, it was the computer games. Expensive and tedious hobby. I'm glad I don't do that anymore. I barely play games as an old fart. :(
Waiting for 11 Deadline (Score:3)
I do think we will see a rebound in 2025 as businesses start migrating to W11. They will likely flip machines rather than rebuild/upgrade.
For Linux folks, there might be a nice market of used machines falling on the market in
The answer is simple (Score:2)
Older computers work fine for most people.
The current generation of AI is nearly useless, but hypemongers and investors demand that it be shoved down our throats NOW.
Windows on ARM is a bad, bad, horrible, no good, awful idea. Backward compatibility is a really good thing. For some, it's absolutely essential.
The latest news about Intel processor instability makes some people skeptical about new processors.
That Subject Line... (Score:2)
I'm going to not so dangerously speculate that most people are very done with all the spying that industry does on them. They're sick of the constant barrage of ads from every goddamned electronic thing they buy; and that "AI" buzzword just means more of that shit is going to be shoveled into their brainspace. That's a huge net negative for the average person, irrespective of what some delusionally extroverted influencer is peddling.
I think i
AI PC boxes were supposed to fire up buyer ... (Score:2)
AI PC boxes were supposed to fire up buyer enthusiasm
Was anyone other than maybe some marketing people at PC makers or some goofs at Gartner actually predicting this? Like actual, reliable (!), industry analysts? I can't think of any and I can't think of any reason why consumers would be persuaded by AI specific features at this point in time.
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I must have missed this "buzz" (Score:2)
What in the world is an "AI PC"? I get what Apple Intelligence is ... pure marketing genius offered to a gullible market segment. But what is an AI PC? Are these PCs with 4090's for people either not connected to the Internet or who can't stomach the hundreds of millisecond lag in cloud-based AI response?
I do give the PC makers some credit for realizing that they don't have Apple fairy dust and that a marketing blitz would not only be futile but also ridiculed. That's why the first time I've heard about
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There's also a world of difference between marketing buzz and market buzz. One is aspirational the other is real. As long as AI PCs aren't delivering some meaningful added value and/or consumers don't have excess money to spend, I'm not sure why anyone would think empty marketing would translate to sales. Anyone should have been able to see this coming when every AI NPU PC benchmark has had to advertise with synthetic performance metrics rather than real world applications. They literally decided to add
Completely botched launch. (Score:1)
I went to Best Buy right after the AI PCs were first launched to decide between a Surface Laptop and a Surface Pro. For some reason, I thought the built-in AI features would let me do obvious things, like ask for basic stats in spreadsheets or launch menu settings. I was terribly mistaken, and the only AI feature I could figure out was the Copilot chatbot, which is effectively a skin for ChatGPT. I mean, I was dead-set on getting one of those new laptops, and when that happened I just left and had zero desi
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I pity you and I feel really sorry for you that you had to waste some time in order to find out. At least, you are healed now so everything is now fine I guess.
There are zero useful x86 "AI PC" parts available. (Score:3)
Yes, Intel included an NPU in their just released CPU's, but they're way too slow to be used in Windows 11's Copilot+ (even if you wanted to). And I know of no other purpose for that hardware, though have not spent a ton of effort looking for their marketing slides.
No that is not the only definition of an AI PC, but it's what they meant in the article. Stuff "Joe Q Public" might go spend some new money on.
Not the high end gaming GPU to run the poor man's version of what cloud service providers offer. And everybody has caught on to the fact you make more money by 'renting your solution out by the minute' than 'selling a box to companies (then support contracts)'.
Oh, and the job market for 'techies' is crap now, which was probably a big part of the demand for stuff like this anyway. People buying hardware to play around, then learn on, in the hopes of showing competency for a better career/job. I hope the people who passed Section 174 rot in hell for eternity.
Microsoft killed the PC (Score:1)
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Who let Microsoft create a monopoly on operating systems anyway?
This guy [wikipedia.org].
Microsoft was supposed to be broken up and Ashcroft prevented it [washingtonpost.com].
He was Bush's AG at the time.
George Bush let M$ kill the PC (Score:2)
Who let Microsoft create a monopoly on operating systems anyway?
I can't say who let Microsoft create a monopoly on personal computer operating systems. I can say that it was US President George W. Bush who appointed Attorney General John Ashcroft who let them keep it by imposing a wrist slap penalty for Microsoft's antitrust conviction.
I got mine (Score:2)
AI PC -- Certified buyer
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