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Power Transportation

Refueling Hydrogen Cars in California is So Annoying, Drivers are Suing Toyota (yahoo.com) 213

Posted by EditorDavid from the it's-a-gas dept.
The Los Angeles Times spoke to Ryan Kiskis, an environmentally-conscious owner of a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (the Toyota Mirai): He soon learned that hydrogen refueling stations are scarce and reliably unreliable. He learned that apps to identify broken stations hand out bad information. He learned that the state of California, which is funding the station buildout, is far behind schedule — 200 stations were supposed to be up and running by 2025, but only 54 exist. And since Kiskis bought his car, the price of hydrogen has more than doubled, currently the equivalent of $15 a gallon of gasoline.

With fueling so expensive and stations so undependable, Kiskis — who lives in Pacific Palisades and works at Google in Playa Vista — drives a gasoline Jeep for everything but short trips around the neighborhood. "I've got a great car that sits in the driveway," he said. Bryan Caluwe can relate. The retired Santa Monican bought a Mirai in 2022. He likes his car too. "But it's been a total inconvenience." Hydrogen stations "are either down for mechanical reasons, or they're out of fuel, or, in the case of Shell, they've rolled up the carpet and gone home." And don't get Irving Alden started. He runs a commercial print shop in North Hollywood. He leases a Mirai. He too loves the car. But the refueling system? "It's a frickin' joke."

The three are part of a class action lawsuit filed in July against Toyota. They claim that Toyota salespeople misled them about the sorry state of California's hydrogen refueling system. "They were told the stations were convenient and readily available," said lawyer Nilofar Nouri of Beverly Hills Trial Attorneys. "That turned out to be far from reality." The class action now amounts to two dozen plaintiffs and growing, Nouri said. "We have thousands of these individuals in California who are stuck with this vehicle." Kiskis believes Toyota sales staff duped him — but says, "I'm just as irritated with the state of California" for poor oversight of the program it's funding...

Hyundai also sells a fuel cell car in California called the Nexo, and although the the suit is aimed only at Toyota, the hydrogen station situation affects Hyundai too.
Toyota told The Times it's "committed to customer satisfaction and will continue to evaluate how we can best support our customers. We will respond to the allegations in this lawsuit in the appropriate forum."

The article does note that the California Energy Commission awarded an extra $9.4 million to hydrogen station operators this year to cover "operations and maintenance" — and that hydrogen cars have their advantages. "The full tank range is 350 to 400 miles. A fill-up usually takes no more than five or 10 minutes.

"But unlike electric vehicles, you can't fill up at home. You have to travel to a dedicated fueling station...."
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Refueling Hydrogen Cars in California is So Annoying, Drivers are Suing Toyota More

Refueling Hydrogen Cars in California is So Annoying, Drivers are Suing Toyota

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  • Shoulda boughta... (Score:3, Informative)

    by VeryFluffyBunny ( 5037285 ) on Saturday August 17, 2024 @08:28PM (#64714608)
    ...Tesla, like everyone else.

    • The favoured transport of Chechen militants?

      https://www.yahoo.com/news/che... [yahoo.com]

    • Not some random story, I know the person involved. I've seen the car, even ridden in it back when it worked. Acceleration was actually scary in that thing. Now, it's a paperweight.
    • The dude wanted a rare, expensively exclusive car & that's what he got. Did he convince himself he was an "early adopter" or something?

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by shanen ( 462549 )

      Censor troll moderation makes as little sense as usual. Then again, a have to agree that your attempted joke didn't work too well. Lots of fresh material flops, but Slashdot tends to have too many old jokes.

      Try to explain a light bulb joke to a millennial... "Why would you want to change a light bulb? Did your lawyer make you take it out of your will?"

  • Didn't do their homework (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Powercntrl ( 458442 ) on Saturday August 17, 2024 @08:40PM (#64714632) Homepage

    Maybe *before* you buy an alternative fuel vehicle, you should first do some research and make sure you'll actually be able to buy said alternative fuel?

    Before my partner and I even went shopping for an EV last year, the first order of business was making damn sure there was capacity available in the breaker panel for installing an EVSE. Next step was downloading ABRP and making sure any of the potential road trips we might want to potentially make would be doable. Only then, did we start actually shopping for the EV (ultimately deciding on a Bolt EUV). It would've been absolutely moronic to bring home a car we couldn't use.

    • Re:Didn't do their homework (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Zuriel ( 1760072 ) on Saturday August 17, 2024 @08:59PM (#64714658)
      Even with no high powered EVSE, an EV can at least trickle charge from a normal wall outlet. With a hydrogen vehicle, it's a filling station or nothing.

      • Even with no high powered EVSE, an EV can at least trickle charge from a normal wall outlet.

        We were looking at a daily round-trip commute of about 55 to 61 miles, depending on the non-toll vs toll routes. That's beyond what would be a reasonable recharging time with a L1 connection, so it was L2 or bust.

        • Well, at least you did your research.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by shilly ( 142940 )

          Here in London, we put in a home charger when we got our first EV back in 2015, and it made all the difference. Funnily enough, yesterday for the first time, I was sufficiently disorganised that I needed to drive and hadn't made sure the car had enough range at the time I had to leave. So I had a quick look on ZapMaps (our better version of ABRP ;^) and found a rapid charger 2 miles away from home*. 15 minutes there and I was good to go. Couldn't have done that back in 2015 with my Zoe -- the charging netwo

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by e3m4n ( 947977 )

      wished they still made the Volt. That 50mpg gas generator would make for a fantastic backup plan if you have to evacuate due to forest fires, hurricanes, etc. The sort of thing that will congest stations and highways. Having a 500mi escape solution is worth keeping around,

    • Re:Didn't do their homework (Score:4, Informative)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 ) <slashdot AT worf DOT net> on Sunday August 18, 2024 @02:10AM (#64715006)

      Maybe *before* you buy an alternative fuel vehicle, you should first do some research and make sure you'll actually be able to buy said alternative fuel?

      The problem is not that. When the Mirai was new, hydrogen was all the rage. There were a few gas stations that did it (and Toyota would only sell you a vehicle if you lived near to one of them).

      The problem is, it's a few years on, and those gas stations haven't been maintaining the hydrogen pumps as rigorously. That and Toyota has seemed to lost interest in it, as hydrogen seems to be less the next generation fuel.

      Now, with an EV, it's less of a problem as you can fuel up anywhere there's a plug. With hydrogen, you're limited to places that sell it. And those places are becoming scarce as pumps break down and don't get fixed.

      Hydrogen is not going to be the fuel for the next generation. It's too inefficient if you want green hydrogen, and blue hydrogen is just another form of fossil fuel. Hydrogen also doesn't store well - the Mirai's tank will boil off in a couple of weeks - that's right, park the car and you'll go from full to empty in a couple of weeks. Now, it's a hydrogen EV, so you aren't completely stuck as you have a battery that can take you to a station (that's what limits where you can buy it)

      Hydrogen is unlikely to be the next fuel - it's got all the inconvenience of gas cars, except your tank drains itself. You have to drive a lot to make it worthwhile, and the fuel is expensive. There is literally no practical reason to get a hydrogen vehicle over a gas or electric. But in the hype of hydrogen a few years back, well, it seemed the future, and did offer the quick fill ups of gas cars.

      • Then the tank in your car is broken.
        The Mirai uses high pressure gas tanks, not liquid hydrogen.
        So nothing can boil off.

      • The problem is, it's a few years on, and those gas stations haven't been maintaining the hydrogen pumps as rigorously.

        The problem is, everyone is figuring out that it's a boondoggle. Shell alone closed 12 percent of the hydrogen filling stations in California (six out of seven of theirs.)

        There is literally no practical reason to get a hydrogen vehicle over a gas or electric.

        And there never was, and fraud was used to sell them. They claimed there would be more filling stations, when they had no plans to build any, and nobody else had a commitment they couldn't escape from. They claimed filling would be faster than EVs, when in fact it is sometimes slower. They claimed it would be safe, but there were multiple

    • Maybe *before* you buy an alternative fuel vehicle, you should first do some research and make sure you'll actually be able to buy said alternative fuel?

      This is the point of the lawsuit. When all research points to marketing materials that make promises, when it shows that local facilities are available, but your actual experience differs it is grounds for a lawsuit. I can research how many hydrogen stations there are all I want, it doesn't help me if when I go there with my car it's out of order.

      In order to have real world experience people need to provide real world experience. There was no way of being an early adopter in hydrogen and realising that the

    • Maybe *before* you buy an alternative fuel vehicle, you should first do some research and make sure you'll actually be able to buy said alternative fuel?

      That's not unreasonable, but Toyota still defrauded them into making the purchase by telling them a bunch of lies, and we should not lick their boots by allowing them to get away with it. Let us hold salesmen accountable for their lies. Let us hold the dealer accountable for their salesmen. And let us hold Toyota accountable for the actions of its franchises. They decide who gets to be a dealer and carry their logo on a big sign. It would be absolutely moronic to not treat this as fraud.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dbialac ( 320955 )
      Maybe Hydrogren vehicles are going through the same growing pains that EVs had, and continue to have, though the EV pains aren't as bad as they used to be. Still, only last year right after breakfast, I found the electricity in my hotel had gone out. It was located adjacent to a Tesla charging staging that had blown the electrici grid in the entire surrounding area. Still, it was humorous to watch as Tesla after Tesla drove up to a charger, tried to figure out what was wrong, go to the next charger and then

  • The best thing Tesla ever did, and I personally think the entire reason for the success they have enjoyed, is that they massively built out a good, reliable charging network even before a lot of people had cars - because how could you get much of a user base if people had anxiety about going places?

    Tesla made sure there were few places you could go without knowing you'd be able to charge.

    Toyota really seems to want to push hydrogen electric cars out of the small niche they are in. I'll believe they are ser

    • ...in repairs - the battery's toast. Not "I heard it from a man who knows a fellow who says it's true" - my daughter. She's still paying for the Tesla.

      I'll get downmodded for relaying my personal knowledge on the subject - and I'm sure I'll continue to get people here insisting that I'm making this up - because for some folks, Goodfacts are better than Truefacts.

      • Re:My daughter's Tesla needs thousands of dollars (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Smidge204 ( 605297 ) on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:40PM (#64714714) Journal

        You might be getting downvoted because it's not relevant to the topic. I can promise you there aren't that many pro-Tesla people on this site...

        I also get the general vibe that a lot of detail is missing from the story? Like "Boo hoo my daughter's Tesla needs thousands of dollars in repairs and all she did was drive it into a lake" kinda vibes. If she bought it new - so new that she's still making payments - it's absolutely under warranty (unless, again, there's more to the story...) If she bought it used then it's kinda between you and who you bought it from.

        But either way sure, you got a lemon on your hands. That's not a Tesla exclusive thing. My brother once bought a used car and the engine blew itself up within two weeks. Shit happens. Even new cars sometimes have catastrophic failures, but when that happens they either get it fixed under warranty or get the dealer/manufacturer buys the car back.
        =Smidge=

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by mmell ( 832646 )
          Nope. My kid treated it like the epitome of all that is driving and automotive technology. It just plain failed one day (batteries will do that, even the best made ones will fail from time to time). It's the whole "only we or our allies can fix this for you" thing, combined with the insane cost that isn't covered by warranty - explicitly excluded, in fact. But . . . despite your assertion to the contrary, I've only responded where people have said something like "Should've bought Tesla" - so not offtopi

      • Technically yours is still an anecdote lacking sufficient information to be meaningful... like witch model, how many odometer miles, and were there any extenuating circumstances.

      • Why would anyone say you're making it up? If you get downmodded it's for thinking anecdotes = data. I feel sorry for your daughter, but I know countless people who are insanely happy with their Teslas, some of them who bought them when the model S first came to market who are still enjoying them just fine.

        Personally though I had to have a complete engine rebuilt on a Subaru Liberty - so expensive that I ended up having the engine replaced instead, the difference between me and you - I don't hold this up as

    • Re:Toyota should be be building out the stations (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Powercntrl ( 458442 ) on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:39PM (#64714712) Homepage

      The best thing Tesla ever did, and I personally think the entire reason for the success they have enjoyed, is that they massively built out a good, reliable charging network even before a lot of people had cars

      As an owner of a non-Tesla EV, even I'll admit I'm envious of their charging network. Of course, it remains to be seen if that continues to be the case since Musk fired off the Supercharger department.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ukoda ( 537183 )
      The reason Toyota didn't invest in hydrogen fueling stations is they knew the biggest weakness of HFCV vs BEVs was the fueling infrastructure and they were hoping the hype they were trying to create would translate into investment and solve the problem for them. Put simply Toyota could not afford to deploy hydrogen fueling stations, they are simply too expensive each and Toyota is already carrying more debit than any other company on the planet.

      For Tesla the task was much more manageable, the charging s

    • Yeah let's do that, get a company with no history in operating major hazard facilities to build them. What could go wrong...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dbialac ( 320955 )
      I'm not a fanboi by any means and will never buy a BEV unless conditions force me to, but the best thing Tesla ever did was break the backs of the oil companies because suddenly they were dealing with a car manufacturer that wasn't reliant on a car division that required oil. I will continue to champion properly-sourced ethanol (go look at Brazil) and, once we can efficiently extract it from sources other than methane, hydrogen. I'm not exactly opposed to a hybrid model similar to a Volt, but large battery

  • A Prius Prime 2020, that was the worst car I ever had,everything that had code in it crash at a time or another.
    Car radio, reboot on it's onw reason and start playing radio or apple Auto music.
    Trac control (i live in Canada) stop working when even I really need it.
    Comsumtion can be 1l/100 or 40l/100 for any reason it decide.
    The car even start the gas engine out of no where when the car was parked in my driveway
    I had video proof of everything, and Toyota don't want do anything, like, everything was a feature

    • I had an '02 Camry. Drove the heck out of that thing, still one of the nicest cars I've ever owned. Other than that it started costing a fortune in fuel as gas prices rose, it was great.

    • Toyota is objectively the most reliable car company in existence second only to Honda. But all it takes is one bad experience and people are going to rail against it.

      Honestly I don't really like their cars not enough room up front I'm a pretty big guy. Much prefer Honda or even Hyundai now that they've got their shit together.

      But I can't help but think of all the people who will never touch a Seagate hard drive in their life or a Western digital drive or a whatever because they had one crash on them

      • Toyota is objectively the most reliable car company in existence second only to Honda. But all it takes is one bad experience and people are going to rail against it.

        Toyota is objectively the best at making reliable engines, but they are also objectively shit at software. The unintended acceleration code review done by the Barr Group found literally dozens of code paths which could cause unintended acceleration. They also found that Toyota programmers had not only not followed industry standards, they had not even followed their own inferior internal standards.

        I can't help but think of all the people who will never touch a Seagate hard drive in their life or a Western digital drive or a whatever because they had one crash on them.

        I can't help but think of all the Seizegate drives I've had to rescue from being unable to spin up by whacking

  • â¦And after finding it impractical, his next choice is a Jeep? Does he own a chocolate teapot as well?

  • There is a use for them after all

    Ukraine uses unwanted Toyota Mirai hydrogen cars as huge bombs
    https://youtu.be/-STHvI2ebTk?s... [youtu.be]

  • They're getting some good use out of them [interestin...eering.com] as VBIEDs with the "E" built right into the drive train. That way, these owners can have some money to get a car that isn't an evolutionary dead end and the Ukrainians can get more weapons.

  • Just be glad some bureaucrat gave you a free pass on the industrial rules for handling hydrogen. Otherwise you'd be in the full hardhat, safety glasses gloves, steel toed boots and nomex outfit.

  • ...buses and trucks. Due to the network effect, it won't work well for cars until there's a sufficient number.

    • The new busses in Bangkok are all electric.

      I just did figure yet if they are battery or hydrogen driven.
      They have a water outlet. But likely that comes from the AC and humid air.

      • The new busses here in The Netherlands are full-electric on batteries.
        They work fine, especially for the city-busses that stop a lot.

        On certain places that the busses will stop for longer times (end of the line & bus stations) we installed overhead chargers.
        Those chargers can boost the busses in a few minutes a la a fast charger. And then tickle recharge themself from the grid connection.

        • I will try to find a place where they are parked over night. So I can look closer. At the moment I see them only at bus stations along the road. The long distance buses are still all on nat gas. Ah, I have an idea, I know where there is a Terminal bus station for 2 lines of the blue buses, the drivers make a break there, then I can take a look.

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