Will Tesla Do a Phone? Yes, Says Morgan Stanley 170
Morgan Stanley, in a note -- seen by Slashdot -- sent to its clients on Wednesday: From our continuing discussions with automotive management teams and industry experts, the car is an extension of the phone. The phone is an extension of the car. The lines between car and phone are truly blurring.
For years, we have been writing about the potential for Tesla to expand into edge compute domains beyond the car, including last October where we described a mobile AI assistant as a 'heavy key.' Following Apple's WWDC, Tesla CEO Elon Musk re-ignited the topic by saying that making such a device is 'not out of the question.' As Mr. Musk continues to invest further into his own LLM/genAI efforts, such as 'Grok,' the potential strategic and userexperience overlap becomes more obvious.
From an automotive perspective, the topic of supercomputing at both the datacenter level and at the edge are highly relevant given the incremental global unit sold is a car that can perform OTA updates of firmware, has a battery with a stored energy equivalent of approx. 2,000 iPhones, and a liquid cooled inference supercomputer as standard kit. What if your phone could tap into your vehicle's compute power and battery supply to run AI applications?
Edge compute and AI have brought to light some of the challenges (battery life, thermal, latency, etc.) of marrying today's smartphones with ever more powerful AI-driven applications. Numerous media reports have discussed OpenAI potentially developing a consumer device specifically designed for AI.
The phone as a (heavy) car key? Any Tesla owner will tell you how they use their smartphone as their primary key to unlock their car as well as running other remote applications while they interact with their vehicles. The 'action button' on the iPhone 15 potentially takes this to a different level of convenience.
For years, we have been writing about the potential for Tesla to expand into edge compute domains beyond the car, including last October where we described a mobile AI assistant as a 'heavy key.' Following Apple's WWDC, Tesla CEO Elon Musk re-ignited the topic by saying that making such a device is 'not out of the question.' As Mr. Musk continues to invest further into his own LLM/genAI efforts, such as 'Grok,' the potential strategic and userexperience overlap becomes more obvious.
From an automotive perspective, the topic of supercomputing at both the datacenter level and at the edge are highly relevant given the incremental global unit sold is a car that can perform OTA updates of firmware, has a battery with a stored energy equivalent of approx. 2,000 iPhones, and a liquid cooled inference supercomputer as standard kit. What if your phone could tap into your vehicle's compute power and battery supply to run AI applications?
Edge compute and AI have brought to light some of the challenges (battery life, thermal, latency, etc.) of marrying today's smartphones with ever more powerful AI-driven applications. Numerous media reports have discussed OpenAI potentially developing a consumer device specifically designed for AI.
The phone as a (heavy) car key? Any Tesla owner will tell you how they use their smartphone as their primary key to unlock their car as well as running other remote applications while they interact with their vehicles. The 'action button' on the iPhone 15 potentially takes this to a different level of convenience.
Tesla-ma-phone (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Tesla-ma-phone (Score:5, Funny)
Still hard to beat the out-of-touchness of the "analyst":
The lines between car and phone are truly blurring.
Indeed, blurry lines. I mean, I have to look at what I get out of my pocket, not sure if it is the phone, or the car...
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Still hard to beat the out-of-touchness of the "analyst":
My take is somebody was lazy and let AI hallucinate their article...
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Quite possibly true, but whatever algorithm actually wrote it, it is still owned by the people who let it out.
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In the sense of "possession", and "responsibility", yes. In the sense of "understanding" or "controlling", clearly no. I wonder how they try to make sure they do not get sued into the ground...
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Yeah...someone is on crack. The line between my car and my phone isn't remotely blurry - and it never will be.
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Yeah...someone is on crack. The line between my car and my phone isn't remotely blurry - and it never will be.
Read that phrase in context. Many cars interface with iPhones or Android mobiles. These cars ask for maps, entertainment, and more from the cell phones. Musk's comment was the line between the car's responsibility and the phone's is blurring. I can push a button on my steering wheel to activate Siri or hey Google. It understands commands like "call wife's cell" or "navigate to Olive Garden" or "Tune to KPOW". The phone call will use the car's microphone and speaker. The driving instructions show up on the c
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This is why I like what my current vehicle has. It has Bluetooth... enough to do basic voice control, and allow for flipping through songs via the steering wheel controls, but doesn't have a touch screen interface that winds up dated and obsolete in a few years. It also has actual push buttons. As time goes on, phones get upgraded, but the basic mechanism works without issue.
Unlike most devices, cars are on the roads for decades. Even most LTS firmware isn't going to have drivers for stuff for that long
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I don't own a Tesla and more and more the descriptions of them make me never want one.
I do NOT want a car that can be willy-nilly "updated" OTA at any give time.
I do not want a car talking to mothership, govt. or any other cars, or the cops.
I don't want to have to have a phone with me to open, start of drive a fucking car....I don't always take my phone with me...hell, I find it nice to leave it
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I don't want to have to have a phone with me to open, start of drive a fucking car....I don't always take my phone with me...hell, I find it nice to leave it at home and have a great excuse for not being "available".
Um, you don't have to. Leave your phone at home and bring your key instead - and a tesla will work just fine. You *can* use your phone, but that doesn't mean you *can't* use a key.
You'll have more of an issue with other new cars than Tesla, because generally to have a decent user experience you need to be using Carplay or Android Auto since the built in stuff sucks. Tesla is actually unique in this regard, because Tesla's system *is* standalone instead of AA/Carplay dependent.
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Based on how one has to use a key (fob) [motorandwheels.com] in a Tesla, might as well sacrifice a chicken or two and hope it works.
A real, metal key is still far superior to anything electronic. It works each time, every time. It's why women will carry their metal key between their fingers to use as a weapon if they're attacked. Try that with a fob.
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Not really familiar with those. I've heard of them, but never used them...
Re: Tesla-ma-phone (Score:2)
" Tesla is actually unique in this regard,"
Tell us you're a Tesla fanboy and that you know Jack shit about cars, but I repeat myself.
The vast majority of modern infotainment systems can function without your phone and still provide entertainment and navigation. Some of them don't even support EITHER Apple car play or Android Auto.
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I do NOT want a car that can be willy-nilly "updated" OTA at any give time.
I get it - bad updates happen, and nobody wants to come out to their car the next morning to find that things have moved around and you can't figure out where the fuck they moved the mirror controls, etc.
I do not want a car talking to mothership, govt. or any other cars, or the cops.
Unfortunately, this is likely to be the way of the future, but in a severely limited capacity when it comes to the government. There's just way too much room for safety and road throughput improvement by creating a viable mesh network between cars. Throwing your body on the machine to stop it isn't going
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There's just way too much room for safety and road throughput improvement by creating a viable mesh network between cars. Throwing your body on the machine to stop it isn't going to work, so it's probably time to embrace that this one is going to happen, and you should look to steer it into a direction that is less privacy invading than if, say, Google was to do it.
Lucky for me I'm almost 60, so I'll just drive older cars. I doubt they will be outright banned in my lifetime. Young kids nowadays can live in the dystopian shithole they create all for themselves. Glad I got in my life before that.
The competition is already there. (Score:2)
Still hard to beat the out-of-touchness of the "analyst":
Actually it's not that out of touch. You just need to look at the competition: Polestar: https://www.gsmarena.com/_pole... [gsmarena.com]
Or you could go the other way too. Xiaomi has plenty of phones, and soon: https://www.mi.com/global/disc... [mi.com]
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Man, this dessert tastes great!!!
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What if your phone could tap into your vehicle's compute power and battery supply to run AI applications?
"Out of touch" is thinking we'll only be running AI applications on our phones when we're driving in our cars.
Re:Tesla-ma-phone (Score:4, Informative)
Also, it's idiotic to suggest that we should encourage people to play with "AI applications" on their phone while they're driving.
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Re: Tesla-ma-phone (Score:2)
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Science fiction is full of portable computers connecting to bigger less portable computers when they can. Portable computers connecting to house computers, ships connecting to stations. It's not only a reasonable idea, we do it pretty much constanty now. The cloud could go the way of the mainframe and we'll all get house and car computers that our cell phones connect to.
Tesla making a cell phone sounds like a dumb idea though. Better to make an app. Or expose an API and get Apple and Google to make the apps
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...and it will be even more out of touch with what real users need than an iPhone is.
I think Tesla has completely lost touch with what real-world customers want in an EV. Hint: It's not generative AI self-driving and it's not retro '80s sci-fi-movie styling.
Yay /s (Score:5, Insightful)
Another Android phone.
Re:Yay /s (Score:5, Funny)
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Well, that would cover the under served market of people who want their phone to also be a viable bladed weapon.
I wonder... (Score:2)
Re: I wonder... (Score:2)
Re: I wonder... (Score:2)
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Since it's in your sig, which Linux DE do you suggest as the least buggy? I don't want close to Windows.
Not being buggy is the least that you can expect from any DE. I use KDE Plasma, which being the one with more lines of code, must be the one more prone to have bugs, IMO; yet last time I ran into problems, it was because I was using the same /home to two distros.
The reason why I say the Linux DEs are better is because of what you can do on KDE Plasma (and perhaps Gnome) but you can't on Windows Shell and whatever macOS's DE is called.
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Forget the DEs... go with a window manager like FVWM2 and configure it to be anything you want.
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iPhone, Android and Telsa? (Score:3)
Is there room in the market for another phone OS? Ask Microsoft, Blackberry or Nokia for advice on how that will turn out.
Re: iPhone, Android and Telsa? (Score:2)
Compatibility layers (Score:2)
without Play Store, as a training for using a phone with an OS outside the duopoly.
Funny thing is, most other players know that app support for dominant ecosystem is important.
So renouncing, apps when moving to an OS outside the duopoly is not mandatory.
SailfishOS by Jollyboys(*) has their own commercial and proprietary Android App Support (Based around a container running AOSP, and a couple of proprietary bridges to expose some of the host OS to the container: graphics, audio, input device, webcams, etc.).
Most GNU/Linux distros on phone (like PostMarketOS, UbuntuTouch, or the community
Re:iPhone, Android and Telsa? (Score:5, Insightful)
No no no no. This is all about making press releases to justify Tesla's P/E ratio for yet another quarter.
Tesla is making robot butlers. Tesla has always been an AI company not a car company. Tesla announces new $450 vodka.
and so on and so on it for some reason reminds me of when Gregory D Evans was making press releases that Ligatt was releasing a line of hacker t-shirts that were going to absolutely rock the computing underground among other "very important announcements"
Of course Ligatt was a penny stock and Tesla is worth more than Toyota so there's issues of magnitude involved but same grift.
exactly this (Score:5, Insightful)
Tesla is getting squeezed by more affordable EVs from Asian and domestic car builders. Mass adoption of EVs has further eroded due to the continued lack of sub-$30k offerings and Tesla continues to avoid this mortal challenge with distractions like the Cybertruck (currently selling for $100k [caranddriver.com]), "Oh, we're an AI company!", and now "We're gonna make cellphones!"
When shareholders follow up on past Musk promises like, "Where's that FSD?" Musk quickly announces some new future project "Oh, look over there!"
These are the tactics of a poorly-performing fourth-grade student.
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Ask {...} Nokia for advice on how that will turn out.
Funny you mention Nokia: they had a dominant position in the rest of the world with Symbian OS, and were on good track to bring GNU/Linux as decent smartphone OS with Maemo.
And then the whole Microsoft and Stephen Elop fiasco [blogs.com] happened upon them.
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And that crap is why IT will require another 100 years or more to become a mature, respectable discipline.
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QNX was the embedded real-time OS of choice for auto.
But RIM never understood the synergy of making a Blackberry car. :)
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QNX was the embedded real-time OS of choice for auto.
But RIM never understood the synergy of making a Blackberry car. :)
QNX still is an excellent choice for things like Digital Motor Electronics and critical safety systems. Not really necessary for playing music and posting to social media.
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Is there room in the market for another phone OS? Ask Microsoft, Blackberry or Nokia for advice on how that will turn out.
We need to unify the interface between different phone OSes (iOS, Android, etc) and external devices (cars, stereos, etc). Each phone manufacturer can continue with their unique OS. Each car manufacturer can continue with their own OS, too. There just has to be a common interface.
The "U" in USB stands for universal. We developed a handshake and protocol where each USB device can identify its capabilities and device types. We no longer need a driver specific to every single device. The same needs to happen b
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Why would they need to make another OS? Why couldn't they adopt the open Android image the same way they've adopted Linux?
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Why ask the majors instead of the minors. There's lots of companies putting out phones successfully, citing 3 big ones who failed spectacularly doesn't mean much. There's even already a car company doing it: https://arstechnica.com/gadget... [arstechnica.com]
Making a phone is easy and cheap. Microsoft, Blackberry and Nokia weren't trying to make a phone. They were trying to build their own ecosystem complete with top to bottom locked down software stack.
It's the corporate wet dream made real (Score:5, Insightful)
Everywhere you go. Everything you do. Everything you say. Everything you buy or even look at. How fast you travel, who you visit when you get there, every person you know how to reach, and every little tiny sin you may commit against your corporate masters. All of it fodder for the limitless greed of marketing drones.
"How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world, that has such people in 't!"
Cars and phones are converging? (Score:3)
Re:Cars and phones are converging? (Score:5, Funny)
I can't put a car in my pocket. Of course, I can't put my phone in my pocket either since it's practically a tablet.
Is that a car in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
What is the device called? (Score:2)
If you hairless apes try and call that shit a “phone” again, I’m going to reach under the frunk of your EV and rip out half a horsepower and beat you over the head with it as a reminder that we need to stop using stupid outdated terms.
Another phone? (Score:2)
They have one, with some wheels and motor added as an afterthought. Just rename it to tPhone and be done with it.
BTW, in my native language tesla is a kind of hammer and we've got a saying about hitting your nuts with said hammer.
Hammering a name out. (Score:2)
BTW, in my native language tesla is a kind of hammer and we've got a saying about hitting your nuts with said hammer.
I had heard long ago that GTE spent over $50K choosing their new name.
Now I'm chuckling wondering what "Verizon" might mean in someone's native tongue.
The lines between car and phone are truly blurring (Score:5, Insightful)
The lines between the car and the phone should NOT be blurry. Moving to a tablet-like interface in the car is a step backward. Cars need easy to find and use buttons and systems that work quickly.
Having one knob, one button, and a million places to touch a flat surface is awful. Want to switch which function the knob uses right now, well you touch the screen and then wait for it to respond and do the touch action before you can use the knob - useless.
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Naa, that would be, I don't know, maybe "competent safety engineering"? Or maybe even some adequate usability? Cannot have that, we must build the future!
Outdated concepts like solid design, product safety, and, oh how boring, good usability stand in the way of that grand vision! You are not a backwards luddite, are you?
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Exactly. If you need to take your eyes off the road to operate it, it has no place in a car. Sooner or later such a bad design will kill somebody. Apparently profits are much more important. Not a surprise.
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Want to change the fan speed? Touchscreen.
Want to change the radio station? Touchscreen.
Want to change from radio to spotify? Touchscreen.
Seat temp? Touchscreen.
Driving mode? Touchscreen.
Select audio tracks on a USB drive? Touchscreen.
I think I'd rather die than use voice commands.
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The lines between the car and the phone should NOT be blurry. Moving to a tablet-like interface in the car is a step backward. Cars need easy to find and use buttons and systems that work quickly.
These are not mutually exclusive. Yeah my car has full on Spotify integrated on a touch screen interface. DANGEROUS!. But I also can control everything with physical buttons, including volume, playback, and use simple voice activation to get it to select music to play. The tabletification is far less dangerous than my traditional car radio in my previous car since I don't even need to take my hands off the steering wheel to use it.
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Actually it makes sense (Score:2)
X - a phone fits very nicely with being a 'lifestyle company'
The real question is to what degree can they lever their starlink assets toward being a mobile carrier. There certainly are technical and legal obstacles there.
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Yeah, but X (in the mobile space) is a Motorola (now Lenovo) trademark.
well if its anything like the cars (Score:2)
it wont be thin and sleek, it will be in the image of musk, I imagine fat lips around the microphone and a down syndrome bulbous head around the camera port, we can nick name it "Corky"
Maybe figure out cars first (Score:2)
I like my model S, but it has had to have a motor replaced once (on their $7500 in dimes), it has a lot of road noise, the sound system is hit or miss and the interior is kind of chinsy and not always very functional.
A whole lot of people make phones, some good, some not. Maybe focus on EVs, not many people make those and the options are still pretty weak.
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I like my model S, but it has had to have a motor replaced once (on their $7500 in dimes), it has a lot of road noise, the sound system is hit or miss and the interior is kind of chinsy and not always very functional.
A whole lot of people make phones, some good, some not. Maybe focus on EVs, not many people make those and the options are still pretty weak.
I'm not quite following your complaint about the motor replacement. A mechanical component of your vehicle needed to be replaced and that is bad?.. this sort of thing happened a few times on my Honda and my Chevy and my Subaru... and alternators were required on all three which is essentially a motor that _doesn't_ propel the car.
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A major component needed to be replaced on a car with 30k miles on it, I consider that bad. I have owned Hondas and Fords previously and never even took them to the shop in several hundred K miles before it was time to retire them. So yes, I consider it a problem.
I'm not crying about it, it was covered under warranty and I also understand that EV cars are still relatively new and don't have a century of design experience perfecting them as ICE cars have. I'm just pointing out that Tesla still has some room
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I'm not quite following your complaint about the motor replacement. A mechanical component of your vehicle needed to be replaced and that is bad?.. this sort of thing happened a few times on my Honda and my Chevy and my Subaru... and alternators were required on all three which is essentially a motor that _doesn't_ propel the car.
I think his main complaint is not that all parts need to be replaced eventually but that one of his motors required replacing long before the others. That generally is an indication of quality control problems. And that motor was not a cheap part ($7500). To contrast your examples, an alternator on a Honda costs less than $1000 to replace?
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I'm not quite following your complaint about the motor replacement. A mechanical component of your vehicle needed to be replaced and that is bad?.. this sort of thing happened a few times on my Honda and my Chevy and my Subaru... and alternators were required on all three which is essentially a motor that _doesn't_ propel the car.
I think his main complaint is not that all parts need to be replaced eventually but that one of his motors required replacing long before the others. That generally is an indication of quality control problems. And that motor was not a cheap part ($7500). To contrast your examples, an alternator on a Honda costs less than $1000 to replace?
I would have figured that... some cars have issues, and Tesla is no exception. If my motor broke it would cost much more than $1,000...
It just so happens that my Honda's transmission failed... thankfully under warranty... because that would have been more expensive than the Tesla motor out of warranty. Yikes!
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What year? My 2020 Y has issues, but they have generally been resolved from 2022 on. I thought the S had issues before ~2018, but that it has improved significantly since then.
(I would never buy a Tesla phone; I'm sure they would figure out a new and obtuse way to initiate a call in each minor release update, and try to push you to tweet no matter what your actual goal is.)
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If they do it'll be a disaster and a waste (Score:4, Insightful)
Tesla needs to do something about their aging 5 year old tech platform, their low profit margin ($8k per car with the help of a $7500 gov't subsidy that'll dry up soon) and their lack of a marketing department in a post-Musk hype world.
They can't though, because all those things need money, and Elon is about to take $55b for himself as a one time pay package. I don't see how they stop themselves from getting cut out of China & Europe and losing America to the next Generation of EVs from the other car companies...
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Soo Tesla is making about $500 profit per car? That is really pathetic.
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I'm not sure it would go as low as $500 it's possible people would stretch to buy a Tesla despite The lack of subsidies and despite the fact that there are several alternatives.
But I can't imagine they're going to stretch that much especially given Tesla's well publicized issues with build quality compared to thei
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Amazon spent a fortune trying to make one and got nowhere.
Amazon didn't make a phone. They made a locked down custom device and tried to sell you an ecosystem. If they just released a normal Android phone then it likely would have been a success, but they didn't.
That's one thing all the *failed* companies have in common. Microsoft, Nokia, Blackberry, they weren't just selling you a phone. They were selling you an incompatibility with the rest of the world.
"The lines between car and phone are truly..." (Score:2)
So, some day soon I will be able to take my phone out of my pocket and drive it to work? Or conversely, some day soon I will be keeping my car in my living room whilst I watch crap on the tv, or in the bedroom whilst sleeping?
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You clearly have failed to recognize the transcendent, profound meaning in the idea presented! Obviously you have a small mind. But - fear not! You can buy a car and a phone from Tesla and be part of a future where everything is possible!
In other news, it looks like Tesla marketing thinks their customers are utterly dumb. They may be correct on that in some cases.
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A blurry outlook. (Score:2)
"The lines between car and phone are truly blurring"????
So, some day soon I will be able to take my phone out of my pocket and drive it to work? Or conversely, some day soon I will be keeping my car in my living room whilst I watch crap on the tv, or in the bedroom whilst sleeping?
Based on how the economy is going, perhaps what they were implying is a future where people are falling asleep in their cars to crap streamed from their phones, which has become your bedroom now.
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Ist this some AI hallucinating? (Score:2)
Because that sounds completely dumb. Maybe it is just marketing trying to fake things that sound profound, i.e. generating pseudo-profound bullshit.
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It's quite the triumph of modern AI that you assume overly-imaginative bullshit is generated by artificial rather than natural intelligence.
Why no metric systems? (Score:3)
Can I get this in a more realistic measurement standard? Are Americans this adverse to using metric?
Re:Why no metric systems? (Score:5, Funny)
That's equivalent to about 1,800 metric iPhones.
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Tesla phone hmm (Score:2)
How many miles does my phone get? (Score:2)
Does it take a few hours to charge on my 40 amp car charger in the garage like my car does?
Where do I put the wiper fluid?
Elon seems sus (Score:3)
Oh great! (Score:2)
...expand into edge compute domains beyond the car, including last October where we described a mobile AI assistant as a 'heavy key.' ...What if your phone could tap into your vehicle's compute power and battery supply to run AI applications?
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that". Almost 60 years ago we were made aware of the potential consequences of interposing AI between us humans and our critical machinery. Yet here we are, poised to do something like that, and probably on the way to doing exactly that.
It seems that the ultimate goal is for corporations and/or their proxies to stand between us and every piece of hardware we nominally own, saying "aye" or "nay" to every attempted action and charging for the 'service' they're 'providin
A phone alone is useless (Score:2)
Phone alone is a low margin business unless you're Apple, even then the app store is massively important.
This the age of ecosystem ... there is Apple and Google, while Google is dragged down by the bad PR of being an advertising/datamining company first ... so this is the age of Apple and everyone else slowly dying.
Time is running out to present a real competitor. I don't think Elon could do it even if he tried, regardless of chuddiness being bad PR, the FSD scam is a massive liability.
killer app (Score:2)
30 or so years ago questions existed about the "killer app" for handhelds. For the longest time, Voice was the killer app. More recently, internet access or social media.
Is transportation the new killer app?
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https://motorandwheels.com/tesla-internet-usage/
Do Teslas Have Their Own Internet?
they come standard with cellular and WiFi receivers
Who Provides Internet for Tesla Cars?
Various telecommunications and cellular network providers are central to providing internet for Tesla electric vehicles.
Do Teslas Use AWS and Other Cloud Services?
Tesla uses Amazon Web Services, among other cloud service providers. Further, Tesla partnered with Microsoft’s Azure too
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Augmented reality live Tweeting your journey *while driving* via a 5G handset is kinda redundant if every Tesla is connected via Starlink.
And for that out of vehicle experience, you'll naturally have short range low orbit communication to the nearest Tesla charging station via a Neurolink interface.
Sorry to red-pill you but when Elon talked about living in a simulation, no one imagined that he was the Architect.
Re: huh? (Score:2)
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So you've never used a bluetooth pairing with your car for hands-free phone operation?
I'm not sure why you're flexing on that...
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thinks that the line between car and phone is blurring.
That's like saying the line between cheesecake and alligators is blurring.
They are two fucking completely different things.
Fuck me when will this hot air hype bullshit peak? Every time I think it peaked someone says some dumb shit like this and I realise that not only were we not at the peak, but we were just warming up on the steppes.
I wonder what kind of “dumb shit” retorts people had 40 years ago when someone predicted a “phone” would become a camera. And a map. And a GPS. And a TV. And an email client. And a porn mag.
Look at all that hot air steaming off the shit that came out of the ass end of smartphone marketing that created a couple billion phone/GPS/camera/TV/porn junkies, decades later. Given history, maybe best to not assume we’ve found “peak” marketing yet.