Texas Spot Power Prices Jump Almost 100-Fold On Tight Supply (yahoo.com) 127
ArchieBunker quotes a report from Bloomberg: Texas electricity prices soared almost 100-fold as a high number of power-plant outages raised concerns of a potential evening shortfall. Spot prices at the North Hub, which includes Dallas, jumped to more than $3,000 a megawatt-hour just before 7 p.m. local time, versus about $32 at the same time Tuesday, according to data from the Electric Reliability Council of Texas. This morning, Ercot, as the state's main grid operator is known, issued a "watch" for a potential capacity reserve shortage from about 7-9 p.m., meaning the buffer of spare supplies could fall to low enough levels to call on back-up generation, cancel or delay outages or curb usage.
The conditions are the tightest of the year so far and raises the risk of prices rising to the $5,000 cap -- which they last did on April 16, when Ercot also warned of a potential shortfall. Unusually hot weather in the region has boosted demand for cooling and lowered the efficiency of many power plants. Wind output has also fallen from a day earlier and there are more outages. "Ercot has not called for conservation this evening," it said by email. "The grid is operating under normal conditions at this time."
The conditions are the tightest of the year so far and raises the risk of prices rising to the $5,000 cap -- which they last did on April 16, when Ercot also warned of a potential shortfall. Unusually hot weather in the region has boosted demand for cooling and lowered the efficiency of many power plants. Wind output has also fallen from a day earlier and there are more outages. "Ercot has not called for conservation this evening," it said by email. "The grid is operating under normal conditions at this time."
live free of power and die (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: live free of power and die (Score:3)
It's an increase in the spot market, average people don't buy their electricity on the spot market...
Re: live free of power and die (Score:4, Informative)
https://www.ercot.com/gridmkti... [ercot.com]
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Actually quite a few people do this for retail power as well. It's a classic case of expecting only good things to happen. People on spot prices can often pay less providing they curb their use when times are bad.
During the big freeze a few years back there were countless stories of people on spot prices getting royally screwed.
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Yeah these stories are meaningless unless you are literally signing up to buy power at the spot prices, which I believe the cheapest of the cheap power companies might do. But almost no one does, i know no one who does that. Most have standard pricing.
Almost no one loses their house in a fire, it's still enough people and enough damage for the government to step in to pay for relief. It's not nothing.
https://www.texastribune.org/2... [texastribune.org]
Plus your power company does pay these prices, and the power companies that survived the 2021 disaster for example, they all added surcharges to cover their costs. If your rate is set for the year you got hit the next year, if it was set more frequently like I heard around San Antonio for example, you got hit sooner, but you
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https://www.ercot.com/gridmkti... [ercot.com]
If you believe you have a valid business reason for accessing ERCOT resources, please contact the ERCOT Service Desk.
Security will make sure that you can't prove your point.
Southern Spirit Transmission exists only on paper. They were talking about linking the grid in 2024 January. Power lines are not built in three months.
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It's an increase in the spot market, average people don't buy their electricity on the spot market...
It is better than the sky-high electricity rates in California according to my friends and family that still hang on out there by their fingernails.
Smart people in Texas buy their electricity on a contract (and there are many to choose from in Texas) where the rate does not change. Only the ID10-Ts that have variable rate plans get caught out in these situations.
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It is better than the sky-high electricity rates in California according to my friends and family that still hang on out there by their fingernails.
Electricity markets aren't stationary. This article [usnews.com] paints a summer with higher August prices in Texas compared to California (with California benefiting from relatively good sources of hydroelectric generation this summer).
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I love how people compare Texas to California. That's a great example of whataboutism and a fairly stupid comparison. Most other states have significantly more reliable power generation.
https://generatordecision.com/... [generatordecision.com]
Here's a great quote.
48. Texas 1175 Minutes 2.64 Power Outages 445 Minutes avg.
34. California 325 Minutes 1.31 Power Outages 248 Minutes avg.
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Those high peak prices get factored into the contract. You pay them, just spread out over the contract period instead of for half an hour on a single day.
I'm on a variable rate plan that tracks the wholesale price of renewable electricity. It doesn't fluctuate as badly as it seems to in Texas, but I do save money by avoiding heavy consumption at peak times.
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On the average Texas electricity rates are quite low. A temporary spike might move the average up some but we'll need to have some more history on this to see any real impacts.
https://worldpopulationreview.... [worldpopul...review.com]
From what I see they are doing well enough alone. Sure, they had that big winter outage some time ago but that was news because of the rarity. I believe such things happen far more often in other states. What made this bad, and newsworthy, is that people weren't prepared for it. Where I live it's
Re:live free of power and die (Score:4, Insightful)
I believe such things happen far more often in other states.
You believe that power outages that last 17 days happen far more often in other states? Or you believe that power outages that result in 210 deaths happen far more often in other states?
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Re: live free of power and die (Score:1)
The bitcoin mining (more accurately spot cloud compute) is necessary to regulate the cycling of wind and solar. You want more solar and wind than any other state then you need to make sure you can soak up the unneeded energy to do something useful for most of its lifecycle, otherwise it becomes an expense (like Germany where they pay people to take green energy and then charge people 25c when they need it)
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This is an overreaction. This is just letting the free market help control usage by the likes of the Bitcoin miners. There are NO rolling blackouts, unlike the ones that happen in some other high-regulated states.
And, what's YOUR electricity cost? I'm paying 14 cents per kWh. If that low price comes with an occasional spike in spot prices, I'm pretty OK with that!
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The Texas grid handled it just fine, thank you. There were no rolling blackouts.
Nobody pays spot price, unless they choose to speculate on spot prices. Nearly everybody pays a contracted fixed price. And that fixed price per kWh is lower in Texas (14 cents) than the US average (16 cents) and less than half of California's (31 cents). https://www.energybot.com/elec... [energybot.com]
Why am I, a Texan, supposed to be upset by this?
Irony (Score:1)
ERCOT -- Electric Reliability Council of Texas
So... who pays spot price? (Score:3)
Now, where I'm from, most people are on a fixed rate. There is a floating rate available. It's for people who want to gamble that the floating rate works out better in the long run, but who can also absorb spikes like these from time to time.
But there's another group that can be forced to pay the floating rate - those with bad credit. To enter into a five year fixed rate contract, you need to pass a credit check. And, in a cruel twist, those with poor credit are most at risk of being torpedoed by these fluctuations.
But... I am not from Texas. How does it work there?
Re: So... who pays spot price? (Score:3)
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Are you talking about the same thing? There's usually three types of contracts. Fixed rate, Variable rate, and Spot. Even with variable rate you don't normally deal with hour by hour variance, typically month by month or day by day. When you say floating rate what are you talking about?
You normally need to make a very narrow and targeted choice to end up with an energy contract anywhere in the western world to be subjected to a spot price. It can happen, and in Texas it does happen, but often it's quite dif
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No, there is no credit check for a fixed-rate contract. I live in Texas and renew my contract every year or two. No credit checks.
Spare capacity and electric companies (Score:5, Interesting)
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Why didn't the electric companies buy a years supply of oil in advance?
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The stock holders demand we make as high a profit as is possible, to hell with the consequences. When hospitals cannot afford to keep the lights on, blame the capitalists.
Intermittents at work (Score:2)
Nothing to see here, this is typical for a grid with too many intermittents. Same problem happening here in Finland last few days, spot pricing went from 37,0202 eurocents per kilowatt hour on 8.5. to zero on 9.5., to -0,01984 today.
And variance hour to hour is nuts when weather is unstable. On the day when most expensive hour was over 37 cents, cheapest was just over 3. It doesn't even match the actual generation, because of the way European grid spot prices are determined (they are pushed to the next day)
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You should invent some that are cheap and available so they can be used to amortize grid effectively. Get cracking.
The whole point of ERCOT (Score:3)
Texas could increase its reliability tremendously quite easily by connecting to either the Eastern U.S. Grid or the Western U.S. Grid. But that would blow up the profit making game for the the Texas energy producers so that will never happen.
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It does seem very corrupt, otherwise you would have expected someone to build a big battery by now to soak up those peak prices.
Re: The whole point of ERCOT (Score:1)
Batteries produce nothing and waste most of their energy. It is very expensive to build and operate and youâ(TM)re converting significant amount of it to heat in the process.
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What's the alternative though? Spinning standby generation wastes even more energy, AND pollutes.
Re: The whole point of ERCOT (Score:2)
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Interesting take, and yet, residential electricity prices in Texas (which average 14 cents per kWh) are lower than the US average (16 cents) and less than half of the rate in California (31 cents). https://www.energybot.com/elec... [energybot.com]
If the purpose is to maximize producer profits, somehow they are doing so while keeping customer rates low as well.
Saw California deregulate and did it anyway (Score:2)
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And yet, Texas average cost per kWh is just 14 cents, while California's is 31 cents. https://www.energybot.com/elec... [energybot.com]
I'd say Texas is doing pretty darn well.
dumb as rocks (Score:2)
spot power pricing is the stupidest thing ever to be invented by capitalism.
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Nobody pays spot prices, except those who *choose* to pay spot prices. The vast majority of Texas customers pay a fixed contract rate.
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Solar with battery storage. The batteries are what allow you to store all that excess power generated during the sunny day so you can use it at night, instead of paying astronomical prices.
Or make bank on arbitrage and sell high from your batteries that were filled for the cheap.
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Many EVs come with V2L system...so you can use your car to put power back to your house or grid, charge the car when demand is low or pair that with solar.
A 100kWh battery can sustain a medium house need for power for a day or two.
Re:rooftop solar (Score:4, Informative)
Define "many." I believe only the electric F150 comes with the capability, and even then your house needs to be wired to support that.
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I believe the Tesla Cybertruck also has that capability, or at least they've promised to make it available. But again, you have to wire the house up for it.
I expect the "wiring" will cost at least $3K, and could easily be much more. They have to put in some circuitry to ensure that no energy flows back to the grid when the grid is down to protect electrical workers. Utilities are very picky about getting that detail right (as they should). They could do a cheap version like with a generator where you ma
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It shouldn't be very expensive. Inverters are hardly new technology, we have been using them for solar for decades. The V2L ones are a little different because the vehicle battery will be at least 400V, where as solar is usually kept under 50V, but that only affects the inverter electronics. All the grid tie, safety, and control stuff is the same.
There is no need to convert AC to DC to charge the vehicle batter either, as the vehicle already has that built in, so it compares well to solar+battery inverters.
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In addition to the inverter, you need a gateway to manage the power sources (solar, grid, battery) and loads (house, grid) that will shut off the grid input when it's down. A quick search shows Tesla's gateway at $900 or $1200 depending on the page (this probably reflects price changes over time).
So add $1000 to the inverter.
Doing this in low volume, I could see $3K to $5K being reasonable, but I could see some price gouging until it becomes more common. If doing this standard in all new homes, it would p
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I'm probably underestimating what electricians would charge for installation, though.
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There's a big difference between vehicle-to-load (V2L) and vehicle-to-grid (V2G).
V2L just means that the EV can power an outlet. That could just be a single 110V/15A circuit (in North America). That may not sound like much, but it could be anything from a 100 W computer to a 1.5 kW table saw. Some V2L setups are a beefy 240V/40A circuit that can run a welder at a jo
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That's just America being backwards. Here you have the option of the F150, Nissan Leaf, Hyundai Ioniq 5, Kia EV6, Kia EV9, Kia Niro, MG Marvel R, MG4, MG ZS V, BYD Atto 3, BYD Dolphin, BYD Seal, Cupra Born, Polestar 3 and Mitsubishi Outlander. Though I will admit I've not seen several of the cars on this list on the road.
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Kia EV6, Hyundai Ioniq 5, Chevy blazer EV, chevy Equinox EV, chevy silverado EV etc etc
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A medium uses uses 50kWh/day?
A quick google suggests an average of 30kWh for the US, which is still insane but is probably low for Texas in the summer. By comparison, the average UK medium size house (2-3 bedrooms) uses less than 8kWh/day.
The good news is you only need a tiny fraction of that to power through peak times and avoid high costs.
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A quick google suggests an average of 30kWh for the US, which is still insane but is probably low for Texas in the summer.
The US is a big place, with a lot of sub-climates. I have a large family home with a homelab, and two teens with gaming rigs, all electric EPA Energy Star rated with heat-pump, expanded foam insulation, etc..., in Texas. I'm far enough south that Cairo, Egypt is roughly the same latitude east of me, and west of me is Mexico. Some years I celebrate Christmas by turning off the Air Conditioner.
January and August are my worst months. January because I'm still far enough north to get dips to near freezing.
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You're confusing V2L (Vehicle to Load) with V2H (Vehicle to Home) or V2G (Vehicle to Grid). V2L means you can plug normal 120V/240V AC stuff into your vehicle and it'll run. I have an Ioniq 6 that can do this [youtube.com] and it can provide up to 3.6 kW of power, with 3.6kVA for 230V power devices and 1.9kVA for 120V power devices. It has a maximum draw of 15A. You aren't running your house on that, but can do some emergency loads.
V2H is really only available with the Ford F-150 Lightning right now. I *think* you can ma
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Do they send you a 1099 for tax purposes?
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Solar with battery storage. The batteries are what allow you to store all that excess power generated during the sunny day so you can use it at night, instead of paying astronomical prices.
Do I need the solar to avoid the high prices of energy at night? It appears I really only need the batteries. A backup generator would also do well, and could keep my home powered through an electricity shortage longer than any battery I could afford.
Or make bank on arbitrage and sell high from your batteries that were filled for the cheap.
Definitely don't need solar for that. Rooftop solar isn't cheap. It might look cheap for the homeowner with government subsidies but that just means someone else paid for them, a cost everyone bears in higher taxes, higher electricity rates, or both.
Re: rooftop solar (Score:1)
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Considering they're stackable, why do you think you need to do them all at once? Would one be better than none? Do you know, by measurement, how much power you actually consume at night, when the panels aren't generating?
Not criticizing, just curious and gathering info.
Re: rooftop solar (Score:2)
Re: rooftop solar (Score:2)
WTF? The SPOT price goes high, so what? Tgat only affects folks that think they know better and can save money buying their electricity that way...
This has ZERO impact on average Texans that buy their electricity from a conventional provider...
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The spot price is paid by someone and passed down. The spot price goes up so high because of lack of capacity, with more capacity there is less variance in the spot price. More generation, like rooftop solar, is the solution to stable prices. When you run out of supply it goes to the entity paying the most.
Re: rooftop solar (Score:1)
The problem is Texas has been investing more in solar and wind and shutting down gas and not investing in nuclear. They have implemented more green energy than California, and this is the (predictable) result.
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Tgat only affects folks that think they know better and can save money buying their electricity that way...
And they are right. They save money all year and then turn off the AC a few times a year when prices surge.
I live in California and pay variable prices, which is similar.
My daytime price is high, but my nighttime price is low, so that's when I charge my EV.
I avoid using the AC during the day by working in my skivvies with a fan under my desk. It works great, and I save hundreds of dollars a year.
This has ZERO impact on average Texans
Indeed. It only affects those who sign up to save money by managing their consumption.
Spot/variable pricing is go
Re:rooftop solar (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, that power grid tyranny that the rest of the US suffers under... #include "galactic_sized_eyeroll.gif"
I feel sorry for the sane people in Texas being outvoted by the pieces of shit who do this to them.
It's about money, not being oppositional. (Score:3)
The privately run power companies don't want to do that of course, because they want that money for themselves and they don't care that the grid goes down periodically. The way they run them they target marginalized communities that don't have the political capita
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They could use a lot more rooftop solar in Texas.
Texas hit 23% Solar this afternoon, and when the wind is blowing I've seen combined wind + solar hit 70%+ of the grid capacity. Our solar numbers are not like California's, the overall renewables number are really not bad.
Problems:
1. Hail causes problems for rooftop solar. It breaks the panels, and your roof needs to be perfect at install time. If your shingles are a bit beat up from the previous hail storm, the installers will want you to replace the roof.
2. Not enough grid scale storage. These numbers a
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Solar panels are rated for 2 inch solid ice balls moving at 50mph
Re:rooftop solar (Score:5, Informative)
Solar panels are rated for 2 inch solid ice balls moving at 50mph
Which is a wonderful engineering achievement. The problem is the terminal velocity of a 51mm hail stone in free fall is ~32m/sec., or 71 mph. Large swathes of Texas get 70+ mm hail stones once a decade or so. Such an event happened last fall in Round Rock. Hit auto dealer row with spectacular results. Some of my coworkers had hail penetrate thru their roof & ceiling sheetrock. The damage is incredible.
For my part, I'm considering a south-facing Solar Pergola. Just to keep the roof and panels separate.
Um... you just put hail nets up (Score:2)
This is the trouble with conservatives. If the first and most obvious solution to a problem doesn't work you declare it unsolvable, even when it's been solved for ages. You guys did the same thing with windmills in the cold. Denmark had a good laugh at you lot for saying their windmills didn't work in winter.
Good job listing out the terminal velocity of some hail. Adding a little factoid like that makes your entire post sound more convinci
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They don't lower efficiency all that much and they work fine.
Have never seen them here, and I pay attention to new solar installs because I'm in the market. I'm leaning towards having the panels on a pergola, and keeping it off the roof. That shouldn't be a problem for nets. Link some info if you have it. I suspect by your tone you don't and you just wandered thru to try some cheap shots.
This is the trouble with conservatives. If the first and most obvious solution to a problem doesn't work you declare it unsolvable, even when it's been solved for ages. You guys did the same thing with windmills in the cold. Denmark had a good laugh at you lot for saying their windmills didn't work in winter.
This is the problem with communists, they do not recognize when a problem is solvable, but grossly not cost effective. Such as winterizing windmills that see icing conditions once
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Here's a link
https://www.renewableenergywor... [renewableenergyworld.com]
I guess it's not surprising it was in Texas.
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Some of my coworkers had hail penetrate thru their roof & ceiling sheetrock. The damage is incredible.
With the current cost of panels it would be preferable to replace the panels than fix the roof. You're going to be fixing something one way or the other. Pointing the finger at solar panels being fragile is disingenuous.
I've lived through one massive hail storm where the neighbour had roofers out fixing all the parts of their roof *NOT* covered by solar panels. Not a single panel was damaged. We also had extensive damage on our roof and I wished I had solar panels that day.
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With the current cost of panels it would be preferable to replace the panels than fix the roof. You're going to be fixing something one way or the other.
That sales guy never knocks on my door. But yes agree, you will be replacing something.
I've lived through one massive hail storm where the neighbour had roofers out fixing all the parts of their roof *NOT* covered by solar panels. Not a single panel was damaged. We also had extensive damage on our roof and I wished I had solar panels that day.
I could see that happening. And that's one of the cases you have to consider. But it begs the question, what are the marginal failure risks? Water intrusion, de-lamination, etc... Solar panels are constant current devices when shorted, so some loop configurations might be preferred over say micro-inverters that present line voltage at the roof with associated fire risk. The micro-inverters have better shading performa
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Right, because in a state with significant yearly hail storms, rooftop solar is a great idea. Watching the idiots in my neighborhood install solar and then a year later have to replace half the panels because of hail damage only to stop using it the year after that is always amusing.
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Anything is better than nothing. Even if all the solar panels do is power an inverter which goes onto the grid, that is far better than nothing, especially come summer when those A/C units are cranking away nonstop until November. Ideally, a hybrid solar system would be best, because it would allow for batteries to be charged, and once those are done, feed the grid some.
Also, batteries don't need to be PowerWalls. I've seen people make some solid battery systems from everything from Battle Born or other
Re:May 8th... (Score:4, Interesting)
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extremists in the government have willfully caused massive energy price increases
The decision was made by the utilities, not the government.
The spot price jumped, but it will soon fall back as demand meets supply.
Why would you care? Residential consumers don't pay spot prices unless they agree to do so.
Overall, prices are lower in Texas.
Electricity prices by state [electricchoice.com]
I would consider myself happy if I was able to buy my household electricity for only USD 0.37 per kWh.
Prices are higher than that every day in Hawaii.
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$0.37? Aren't you lucky you're paying retail prices then. The power companies were paying $3.00
Or unlucky, as they were getting paid $3 for you to dump your battery power in to the grid
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They should connect up all the gyms to the grid, so doing the bikes will make the gym money.
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Y'all know this was Yesterday right?
Yep. It's been a bit dodgy the last day or so. Not enough wind, and plants are still down for maintenance. Still it's all of $6/MWh as I type this.
https://www.gridstatus.io/live... [gridstatus.io]
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Thanks! I had not been aware of this tool, I've been getting by with the ercot website directly.
I like it because it provides info for most of the US grids. It comes in handy when the California's are sniping at the Texan's, and you pull up each state's ISO and find both grids are running 60%+ renewable.
It also really highlights the balance problem CALISO has when solar peaks and the spot price goes negative. I have to wonder if the commercial electric contracts are rigged so companies get paid to take electricity. It would be hilarious to find out Chevron's Richmond refinery is powered by Berkley
Re: Ah, Freedom (Score:3)
Re: Ah, Freedom (Score:4, Interesting)
Also we are in fact connected to the other grids. https://www.ercot.com/gridmkti... [ercot.com]
Some via DC (direct current) ties, but otherwise no. From Texas Interconnection [wikipedia.org] (and other sources):
The Texas Interconnection is maintained as a separate grid for political, rather than technical reasons, but can also draw some power from other grids using direct current DC ties. By not crossing state lines, the synchronous power grid is in most respects not subject to federal (Federal Energy Regulatory Commission) regulation.
Also, Why does Texas have its own power grid? ERCOT independence and possible new connections explained [houstonchronicle.com]:
Rep. Greg Casar, D-Austin, has introduced a bill in Congress requiring ERCOT to build a minimum of 2,500 to 4,300 megawatts of connection between surrounding grids and submit to federal oversight. With no Republican sponsors, it faces difficult prospects in the Republican-controlled House. The ERCOT CEO seemed skeptical of such proposals.
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The Texas Interstate Electrical Ties are generally made using HV-DC (AC-to-DC conversion, DC transmission, the DC-to-AC conversion at the far end) not AC.
An example of a HV-DC inter-tie can be (barely) seen (if you know what to look for) from a freeway in Sylmar, CA at a DWP facility; the far end is out in Utah (via junctions in Nevada) or Washington State (I think).
Building more power generation is meaningless without the corresponding upgrades and increases in power distribution facilities; Texas needs bo
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This is what motivates others to meet the desires and to solve the big problems we face. If some super-genius figured out how to change the entire game, and could easily/sustainably offer the same power for a much lower price. Well, then everyone wins.
Everyone except these short-sighted jackasses that can't seem to figure out how to function in the power biz. Fuck them, and their little Manhattan dogs too. Let the new player show them how it's done.
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This is a problem caused by decades of neglectful infrastructure investment. Nothing to do with off-shoring jobs
You keep on believing what you want though.
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You keep right on laying those Americans off.
Unemployment in America is 3.9%, a near record low.
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https://tinyurl.com/24ep95he [tinyurl.com]
Bullshit.
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https://tinyurl.com/24ep95he [tinyurl.com]
Bullshit.
Before you post a "let me Google that for you" link, you should Google it yourself.
The first link says layoffs were higher in January of 2023 than they are now and were much higher in 2009.
Other links say the same: Current layoffs are nothing unusual.
Some people are losing their jobs, and most of them are being hired elsewhere.
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Layoffs rise to the highest for any February since 2009
First link. CNBC. Posted two months ago.
Layoffs Hit 10-Month High
Third link. Forbes. I could go on but I've made my point.
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Layoffs rise to the highest for any February since 2009
For "any February"? Why cherry-pick only one month out of the year?
Layoffs Hit 10-Month High
Whoa. Ten whole months. That's like 1% of a lifetime.
I could go on but I've made my point.
Your "point" was that layoffs were at "an all-time high", which is nonsense.
Re: Is it working? (Score:1)
Real unemployment is hovering about 25%
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It would if they wouldnt count 3 part time job for a sum of ~30 hours per week as 3 jobs.
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Not according to the dictionary https://www.collinsdictionary.... [collinsdictionary.com]
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There's this weird thing where people think "fold" means "folding paper" so "hundredfold" means "folding a piece of paper 100 times; stupid, that's impossible!!"
The two do seem to have the same etymological root, but the suffix means multiplication not exponentiation. Far enough back it's also the same root that forms double, triple, etc. via Latin, which mostly replaced twofold, threefold, etc.
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