We Never Agreed To Only Buy HP Ink, Say Printer Owners (theregister.com) 116
HP "sought to take advantage of customers' sunk costs," printer owners claimed this week in a class action lawsuit against the hardware giant. The Register: Lawyers representing the aggrieved were responding in an Illinois court to an earlier HP motion to dismiss a January lawsuit. Among other things, the plaintiffs' filing stated that the printer buyers "never entered into any contractual agreement to buy only HP-branded ink prior to receiving the firmware updates." They allege HP broke several anti-competitive statutes, which they claim: "bar tying schemes, and certain uses of software to accomplish that without permission, that would monopolize an aftermarket for replacement ink cartridges, when these results are achieved in a way that 'take[s] advantage of customers' sunk costs.'"
In the case, which began in January, the plaintiffs are arguing that HP issued a firmware update between late 2022 and early 2023 that they allege disabled their printers if they installed a replacement cartridge that was not HP-branded. They are asking for damages that include the cost of now-useless third-party cartridges and an injunction to disable the part of the firmware updates that prevent the use of third-party ink.
In the case, which began in January, the plaintiffs are arguing that HP issued a firmware update between late 2022 and early 2023 that they allege disabled their printers if they installed a replacement cartridge that was not HP-branded. They are asking for damages that include the cost of now-useless third-party cartridges and an injunction to disable the part of the firmware updates that prevent the use of third-party ink.
Haha, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
But they agreed to buy HP printers. Suckers!
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Re:Haha, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't have to bow to corporate.
Re:Haha, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Consumers here aren't demanding anything other than the product they purchased continues to work the way it did at the time of purchase.
Re:Haha, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Brother is a MUCH better bet than Epson. I used to swear by HP printers, now I just swear AT them.. I've moved to Brother printers for home use/recommendations. I run Linux and they work perfectly with Linux.
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shit show on windows.
Re: Haha, but... (Score:2)
HP is actually fine if you just buy laser. Ink printers suck, anyway.
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Nope, HP do the same thing with their laserjets. The only difference here is that toner isn't as expensive as ink so you probably care a bit less that HP decreed that though shall buy only the blessed toner.
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It would be trivial then, not to update the firmware.
I see you've never used a HP printer with a HP printer driver before. No, unless you disconnect your computer from the internet, or go through the effort to block HP at your router's firewall (the printer may actually just update itself if it is a wifi printer) you will get the firmware update.
It is possible to block it, but it's not trivial in the slightest.
What's the consensus on /. on Epson as a replacement? I am in the market.
I'll vote in for Brother as well, Epson are not as bad as HP, but also at war against your ability to refill your own cartridge.
Re:Haha, but... (Score:4, Informative)
That would be the company's fault for creating the illusion that they would provide those things. If I lie and someone believes me, the consequences of that belief are all on me.
Also, I doubt HP actually loses money on the printer, they just don't make a lot of money without the tying. You'd be amazed how much mark-up is put on things these days. It's why you sometimes see prices so low it's almost silly buying direct from Chinese companies. Note that the much more expensive product from an American or multi-national was probably made in the same factory by the same people.
Somebody's got to pay for the expensive execs, private executive jet, and substantial campaign contributions.
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The HP store would work if we adopted the carnival model of leaving town once everyone is wise to us.
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HP consumer devices used to be solid. At home, we've got a 10-year-old consumer laser printer that we're still using (on those rare occasions we need to print).
Plus, at work, we've had good luck their non-consumer tier. We still have a few 20+ year old 4050N's chugging along in a handful of faculty offices, and a bunch of their workgroup printers (all probably ~ 10 years old) that've been mostly trouble-free. Not to mention some old HP (and Aruba) switches we've still got at the top of some of our server ra
Re: Haha, but... (Score:3)
We have 4201DNs and they are shit. They have to be power cycled every other day or so or they start silently eating print jobs. The toner carts are miniscule. HP's quality is just depressing compared to the old days.
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But they agreed to buy HP printers. Suckers!
Granted this thread is about inkjet printers, but I've had an HP Color LaserJet Pro MFP M477fdw since 2017 and it's great -- as have been all the HP laser printers I've used at my various jobs over the past 30+ years. Just sayin' your dig probably isn't universally applicable ...
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Your objection to his comment has proven his point. :) New HP printers? Crap. OLD HP laser printers? Extraordinarily reliable equipment that will outlast us all. If you're in the market for a low-volume laser printer, an old HP laser is often an excellent choice due to its reliability and cheap supplies.
In my experience 3rd party ink clogs print heads (Score:2)
I've tried 3rd party inks in Epson printers and in no time at all the print heads get clogged. Then I use a ton of the 3rd party ink trying (usually without success) to clear the clog via the "clean print heads" procedure. Ultimately I end up replacing the printer when I can't get it to print right again.
Re:In my experience 3rd party ink clogs print head (Score:4, Insightful)
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Why get 3rd party ink when Epson ink tank printers have dead cheap ink bottles? Sure, the devices are more expensive, but that's because that way they don't have to recover the cost of the printer through the ink.
The price delta for the EcoTank printer with the same features as my regular one is usually close to $300. The break-even on that for me is probably over two years, so I'm just pre-paying for the ink. In addition the printers have a 2 year warranty. The only way I come out ahead is if the printer lasts longer than 2 years and I do a lot of printing.
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Re: In my experience 3rd party ink clogs print hea (Score:2)
had the heads clog up badly
Toner is already dry so it doesn't have that problem.
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Really? My Epson EcoTank ET-3850 including a two year supply of ink cost $246.09.on Amazon. It's a copier and a scanner and it includes Wireless and Ethernet.
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Really? My Epson EcoTank ET-3850 including a two year supply of ink cost $246.09.on Amazon. It's a copier and a scanner and it includes Wireless and Ethernet.
Right now it's $329 on Amazon but it doesn't do automatic double side scanning and copying. For that you need to step up to the ET-5800 which is $770 on Amazon.
Re:In my experience 3rd party ink clogs print head (Score:4, Interesting)
Buy from a reputable source. Just because you don't like paying the extortionary prices for official HP ink and supporting their bullshit business model, doesn't mean you must, or should, buy the cheapest shit you can find off eBay or a random vendor at a convention.
At the very least buy from an established business that has a refund policy and customer service to complain to...
=Smidge=
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While it may be true that 3rd party inks don't works as well, I want the ability to choose them if that risk is acceptable to me.
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I had Epson Ecotank printer. Never again. Head clogged because printer was not used regularly. Buy only laser. I have some 25 years old HP laser which still prints fine.
You prepay for the ink and can't use it. Laser is great but I've never had a color laser printer
Re: In my experience 3rd party ink clogs print he (Score:1)
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No USB back then. Only parallel port or "NetPort" (plug-in card with an Ethernet jack on it) card.
I used an external (RS-232 serial or) parallel-to-network print server box made by ... wait for it ... Intel.
Dang thing worked perfectly for many years until I removed it from service for a network-attached color laser printer whose toner prices have skyrocketed.
I still have that little Intel print server box. Bet it still works just fine.
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"Netport" (plug-in card with ethernet jack on it
Otherwise known as a Jetdirect card..
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Ethernet has been an option on some laser printers for decades.
Re: Ethernet (Score:1)
Exactly!
I bought my HP Color LaserJet 2605dn at Costco sometime in the 2005-2006 time frame.
A couple years ago I added a smart switch so I can easily power it up only when needed.
Can print to the 2605dn from any OS because of its simple and reliable network interface.
It has been the only working printer in my home for the last decade.
I went through a few multifunction inkjets in this time but not a one could print reliably after a year each.
Tried a multifunction Brother laser printer which worked well but I
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25 years? Was there even USB back then?
USB was introduced 28 years ago.
Re: In my experience 3rd party ink clogs print h (Score:2)
USB was introduced in 1996. Pretty sure a printer I bought around 2000 had USB and parallel.
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Even if they did have a parallel printer, they could easily and cheaply get a small print server dongle which plugged into the centronics port and provided ethernet with lpr support, and probably smb printing as well. I have one in the bottom of one of my boxes of cables (I need to iterate through them again and get rid of more of them, I still have like three goddamn crates full because I am a cable hoarder, in turn because cables are so damned expensive when you need one on short notice) that I have never
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One-sided T&C changes... (Score:5, Informative)
...are quite obviously illegal. Someone like the EFF needs to puck a representative case and carry it through the courts.
Case n point: our car periodically displays a new T&C. You can review it, sure, literally no one will do that. And then? What is supposed to happen if you click "no"? We never agreed to any T&C - we just signed a purchase contract, one page, no fine print.
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...are quite obviously illegal.
So quite obviously illegal... everybody is doing it all the time and absolutely NOTHING happens to them. Interesting illegality, that.
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Yes, that is how Fascism operates.
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They may not be right, but the fact that they've existed for as long as they have is evidence that they are not illegal. As for your car or any other thing which updates the T&C, I'm sure there's a clause buried in there that says you don't have to click anything, that if you reject the terms you need to discontinue use of the product. By continuing to use the product you've given your implicit consent to the T&C.
I'd love to see this kind of bullshit struck down in court someday, but I'm not holdi
And so it ends... (Score:3)
We can now tap the perpetual energy source of Bill Hewlett and David Packard spinning in their graves.
Thanks so f***ing much, Carly and successors.
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We can now tap the perpetual energy source of Bill Hewlett and David Packard spinning in their graves.
Thanks so f***ing much, Carly and successors.
Carly has shareholders to answer to ... along with a Golden Parachute Exit Payment to keep funding. Whataddya expect?
Two words -- (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Two words -- (Score:2)
Laser doesnâ(TM)t do anything for you in this case - HP did it to their laser printers too. But yeh, Brother or Canon are solutions to this problem.
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Canon refuses to make drivers for latest windows so that you are forced to buy a new printer Brother doesn't do that
Samsung and Laser (Score:2)
But the best part is that a laser cartridge practically doesn't expire. You might have to shake it a little if it has been sitting for some time and put it back in.
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Which all in one color laser are the best? Are https://www.costco.com/Catalog... [costco.com] considered good?
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Some recent Brother laser printers have instituted toner DRM, so they have begun the process of becoming HP.
what to buy (Score:3)
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If you do enough printing to justify using that much ink, then that's a completely valid way to solve the problem. The market that's not well served is super small volume color, where someone occasionally prints a flyer or a card. Those people arguably should pay for prints, and only do proof prints at home on B&W personal laser, but many people don't want the hassle of printing somewhere that's not at home.
Vandals (Score:3)
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It's not clear that using 3rd party ink broke the printer, only that the printer refused to print with the 3rd party ink installed. It's similar to the way videogame consoles refuse to run homebrew.
This is why we need laws that prohibit such arbitrary restrictions.
Re:Vandals (Score:5, Informative)
The firmware update broke the printer. Before the update, 3rd party ink worked, after it, 3rd party ink didn't.
Nobody is saying that 3rd party ink broke the printer. HP broke the printer.
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How does Magnusson-Moss not apply here?
Oh Brother. (Score:5, Insightful)
I still remember my HP LaserJet 4P - lasted for decades, but finally just had too many problems with OOM errors (even after upgrading ram).
Gave up my HP last year, and went for Brother. They don't make me feel like I'm a young girl on Epstein island.
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I had a 4L. Since then, it has been Epson and Brother. I avoided Lexmark because they tried this same BS a while ago.
Re:Oh Brother. (Score:4, Interesting)
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Yup. About fifteen years ago, I was out of ink... I think I had an Epson at the time... and the combined cost of both the black and color cartridges was over $100. There was a Brother laser printer on sale for $50. After about a minute of thinking about how often I really *needed* to print in color, I put the ink cartridges back and bought the laser. The low-volume *starter* toner lasted me about a year!
I eventually gave it to a friend... who is still using it... when I upgraded to a multifunction, also
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Yeah, I decided to screw it with the ink replacements, and switched to a Samsung ML-1710.
I then wanted duplex, so, remembering how well I liked the Brother at a previous job, went with an HL-2270dw. And then later added a DCP series multifunction laser for scanning purposes.
Brother is great.
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The low-volume *starter* toner lasted me about a year!
LOL, that was a rare deal and I'm impressed that worked out for you. I've seen people throw out inkjet printers and just buy new ones every time instead of buying ink cartridges, only to find that the cartridge that came with the unit lasted for about 50 pages. This is a lose-lose situation since the printers are loss-leaders: the manufacturer sold the printer at a loss hoping to make money back on cartridge sales, so they lost money. The customer wasted money because buying the printer didn't actually g
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I have a Brother B&W laser PSC. I have had it for a couple of years now and I too am still on the starter toner. This unit is also old enough to have no toner DRM (some recent Brother printers have it, unfortunately) so I can run refills; I can literally trade the starter toner in on getting a full cart.
GP is talking about toner and you are talking about ink, as well.
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GP is talking about toner and you are talking about ink, as well.
I figured they skimped on both when providing the ones that come with the printer. Is that not the case?
This unit is also old enough to have no toner DRM (some recent Brother printers have it, unfortunately)
Dangit! I thought this stuff was struck down by the courts! I didn't realize any of the major manufacturers were still doing this. grrrrrrrrr.....
Re: Oh Brother. (Score:2)
Yes, toner and ink carts are both underfilled for the included parts.
Re:Oh Brother. (Score:5, Informative)
I have a Brother as well. It's just a black-and-white laser printer, but it's the best device purchase ever. Very reliable. I've been using it for 12 years with no issues. They've even kept the drivers supported through Windows 7, 8, 10, and 11. They're a great example of how a company should treat its customers.
Epson ink tank for ink jet (Score:3)
So- (Score:2)
When (or what model...) was the last model HP you ran across in your career, that didn't suck outright?
I remember their original HP Inkjet 500 that damn near took 2 people to move and just worked. But beyond that? Possibly my LaserJet 1320dn that doesn't GaF about what toner I give it.
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When (or what model...) was the last model HP you ran across in your career, that didn't suck outright?
Don't bring their laptops into this!
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A Laserjet 2300DN was the last one I installed that didn't suck, and the next to the last HP I ever installed. That printer lasted over a decade.
A year or so later, I installed a 2400DN at the same client. It lasted a bit more than a year, just long enough for the warranty to expire. I never installed another HP.
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But at the same time, the print quality is amazing.
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The last non-shit HP I am aware of was the 4050. It had good performance (17 ppm @ 600 dpi), a reasonable interface on the printer itself, and perhaps most importantly it was feasible to maintain it. I put a rebuild kit in a 2100TN once and it was a super PITA. It was just too small to make it easy to rebuild. Unfortunately the jetdirect cards of the era have unpatched insecurities, and HP abandoned them, so you should only use them with an external print server. Luckily there are now lots of small cheap op
It's like a hostage situation for us. (Score:5, Interesting)
I work in security, but my daily work is also amongst people in a factory.
And it's kind of a hostage situation, we have perhaps 300 printers mostly HP, and we were used to use re-ink, inkservice etc. to keep costs low, because HP charges exorbant prices for toners that are done in days, we're talking desktop printers where it's eating toners like it was food.
And these can cost 400$ each, and we spend 100K's in a few months, and it's a hostage situation to be forced to buy original toners, because the factory can't afford changing all the printers, neither can the IT infrastructure with our print servers and drivers, it cost too much to change all that.
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If you have 300 printers in the office and are managing the toner levels yourself then you're doing it very wrong. Breakeven point for having a managed printing contract is well in the low double digits. You're time is not free (unless you're a volunteer and don't actually get paid to be at work) and you most likely have better things to do.
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I agree completely.
My organisation has for the second time tried to negotiate a printer management deal with a huge printing company, but it failed due to money constraints, again...
And yes, it's very stressful for me to manage so many jobs, our IT team is hard pressed, we manage our own old now aging server parks and datacentre, it's crazy hard work and we're all a bit overworked. It works - but it's hard.
Re:It's like a hostage situation for us. (Score:5, Informative)
Which will cost more than just buying toner.
You're assuming the cost is just the toner. It's not. Managed printers charge by the print. For your money you get toner, spare parts, periodic maintenance, and a service contracts with on site and quick repair.
That's before you consider the non-toner costs you have in your business. A toner cartridge costs us $230. Why $230? Because for every $30 order, there's $200 of overheads from procurement in raising purchase orders, SAP accounting, and goods receiving getting the parts. Then there's the cost of the tech's time, the cost of managing the printer, and all that before we consider it hasn't managed repairs.
These aren't your home laserjets we're talking about. If you have more than about 15 printers in your office getting a managed contract almost universally works out cheaper for you when you consider all costs.
Re: It's like a hostage situation for us. (Score:2)
It sounds like you're saying more about your own organization's (in-)ability to handle purchasing and receiving efficiently than you are about the cost of a third party printer servicer.
You mentioned SAP. That's probably at the root of your problem if I had to guess.
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It sounds like you're saying more about your own organization's (in-)ability to handle purchasing and receiving efficiently than you are about the cost of a third party printer servicer.
You mentioned SAP. That's probably at the root of your problem if I had to guess.
There's an old joke: SAP isn't a problem, it's a solution which saves you money because you'll loose track of people you owe. Oh but won't they stop doing business with you? Well that's the trick. If you only do business with people who run SAP then they'll loose track of what you owe them.
But joke's aside, no this is not even remotely out of the ordinary for any organisation. That price is quite typical of any organisation big enough to have a procurement department. That would mean virtually every organis
Dot Matrix for the win (Score:3)
From time to time I still need to print source code so I have an Okidata Microline 321 Turbo wide carriage printer for the win. I also have an 80 column IBM Pro Printer that is still going strong. When you need dead simple text printouts you can't beat the good old dot matrix. You can still easily get ribbons for these guys too. I'll never use an ink jet type printer again. If you need color or fine pitched black and white it's the laser printer all the way.
Laser sucks too! (Score:2)
Depends on the DESIGN of your laser printer! Some are engineered to break in certain ways and if you are lucky it's at an interval but others just die once. Laser printers are quite complex devices which helps them hide the "errors" in the breakage.
Color laser printers have a different more complex design than simply a large box with 4 printers inside; they'll merge 4 fusers into one and have a delicate powder transfer belt to leak and needing foam seals... and choosing foam that deteriorates by age (seen
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The old Xerox Phaser is the best color printer ever
I worked on a military installation once in the late 90's that had a Tektronix Phaser (model 340 I think???) before the Xerox sale. I was told it was purchased for around $7k, and I think that's the only reason they bought it. To tell people it cost $7k.
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"Some are engineered to break in certain ways"
Highly doubtful. There are lots of angles to planned obsolescence... part availability... non-serviceable parts... driver discontinuance... O/S support retirement... even the discontinuation of consumables. But engineering consumer electronics products to actually break after a predetermined period - presumably after the warranty and not before - is hard. For fly-by-night chinese rebadge brands, the cost to engineer it would be more than the product is worth, a
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Back in the day you could buy ribbon re-inking machines. I had a friend that had one. You had to remove the ribbon from the cartridge and run it through the machine which would moisten it back up. Then a sponge in the cartridge needed wetting too. It worked well but the ribbons would start to tear through after a few re-inkings. Still saved money though.
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Re: Dot Matrix for the win (Score:2)
Oh, but the noise. That shit's grating to the ears.
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It's music to my ears. :)
Didn't Lexmark lose this case in the early 2000s? (Score:5, Informative)
I have been seeing this same story repeat in various forms since before the year started with the number two. I don't understand why this keeps coming up. Lexmark tried putting chips in their ink/toner in 2003 [slashdot.org] and lost that case [slashdot.org] even up to the supreme court [slashdot.org]. The Magnuson-Moss warranty act [wikipedia.org] was passed in 1975 and was intended to prevent this kind of shenanigans. Obviously at the time nobody was putting computer chips into vacuum cleaner bags, but it is the same spirit.
This just should not be a discussion any longer! Settled! Done! Kaput! Go away!
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The Magnuson-Moss warranty act was passed in 1975 and was intended to prevent this kind of shenanigans.
Magnuson-Moss only prevents them from cancelling your warranty for using compatible third party parts or supplies, it doesn't prevent using DRM to prevent you from using third party replacement supplies. DRM didn't really exist yet, and they weren't looking forward, but rather at the past and present. Lots of printers have DRM now. Even Brother has reportedly started using DRM on toner.
I didn't agree (Score:1, Troll)
I never agreed to be subjected to the last two decades of stories about idiots buying HP printers and whining about their problems.
Re:I didn't agree (Score:5, Funny)
I never agreed to be subjected to the last two decades of stories about idiots buying HP printers and whining about their problems.
Yes you did. Read the small print on your Slashdot account page.
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Geez... (Score:2)
The first comments - do you actually work for HP? I mean, are you being paid to post this crap?
The printers never used to have this issue - this is the *same* thing as Boeing, and so many others - business MBA who want to report ROI, never mind making actual products that people want to use.
And the price the OEMs charge for ink and toner is significantly higher than gold.
Fortunately, the third party supplier I was buying from at work, and that I now buy from at home (tonerprice.com), the ink and toner works
at a certain point, caveat empty (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, HP's predatory ink bullshit is long since proved, nobody doing the faintest amount of research wouldn't find it.
This isn't exonerating HPs nonsense, I'd love to see them get their comeuppance.
But seriously: STOP BUYING HP SHIT. Not just printers, ALL OF IT.
Until *consumers* punish them for their choices, why should they change? Do you think a huge corporation feels guilt?
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How many printers are bought by end users, versus those bought by IT departments or 'managed service providers', for whom the cost of toner is not an issue because THEY are not paying for it?
Just like when Microsoft realized their real customer was corporate IT and reworked Windows to provide corporate IT with maximum control, HP realized who they need to keep happy. And it's not you or me (unless you're a CIO/owner of an IT service company.)
It's worse than that. (Score:4, Insightful)
I never agreed to allow my printer to connect to the internet. Even though I always used HP ink (I don't print that much), my printer still shut down, because I wouldn't allow it connection to the internet.
HP has become garbage.
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I manged almost 25yrs working for HP. Stayed with their printers for about 12 years after I retired....
Last year I abandoned them as printer supplier. When my 4yr old HP MFP's print head died, and the replacement head (still available) was almost twice the price of the printer, I decided to call it quits. I didn't mind the ink price .. only printed infrequently ... but spare parts prices really get me.
I'm on a Canon these days. The interface if poor, and the s/w minimal, but ... so far ... so good. ;-)
Xerox attempts to force consumables agreement (Score:2)
Analogies (Score:2)
If your motorcycle upgraded its firmware, and told it can only run on Shell gasoline
If your Samsung phone updated so you could only charge it with a Samsung-built charger
If your car updated to only start if it had Michelin tires
If your laundry machine stopped working unless it had Tide detergent in it
If your electric toothbrush stopped working unless it had Colgate toothpaste
If your coffeemaker only worked with Nescafé coffee
If your flashlight only worked with Energizer batteries
If your mechanica
Vote with your wallet (Score:2)
The HP DeskJet series of printers were cheap and good back in the 500 series...
Today, we only buy printers that are cheap and are advertised as working with 3rd party inks at stores. HP will never again get a dollar from me.
I don't get why people are complaining. Just don't buy their products.
Brother (Score:2)