Are State Governments Slowing the Build-Out of America's EV Charging Stations? (msn.com) 120
In November of 2021 America passed a "Bipartisan Infrastructure Law" which included $7.5 billion for up to 20,000 EV charging spots, or around 5,000 stations, notes the Washington Post (citing an analysis from the EV policy analyst group Atlas Public Policy).
And new stations are now already open in Hawaii, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania, "and under construction in four other states. Twelve additional states have awarded contracts for constructing the charging stations." A White House spokesperson said America should reach its goal of 500,000 charging stations by 2026.
So why is it that right now — more than two years after the bill's passage — why does the Federal Highway System say the program has so far only delivered seven open charging stations with a total of 38 charging spots? Nick Nigro, founder of Atlas Public Policy, said that some of the delays are to be expected. "State transportation agencies are the recipients of the money," he said. "Nearly all of them had no experience deploying electric vehicle charging stations before this law was enacted." Nigro says that the process — states have to submit plans to the Biden administration for approval, solicit bids on the work, and then award funds — has taken much of the first two years since the funding was approved. "I expect it to go much faster in 2024," he added.
"We are building a national EV charging network from scratch, and we want to get it right," a spokesperson for the Federal Highway Administration said in an email. "After developing program guidance and partnering with states to guide implementation plans, we are hitting our stride as states move quickly to bring National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure stations online...."
Part of the slow rollout is that the new chargers are expected to be held to much higher standards than previous generations of fast chargers. The United States currently has close to 10,000 "fast" charging stations in the country, of which over 2,000 are Tesla Superchargers, according to the Department of Energy. Tesla Superchargers — some of which have been opened to drivers of other vehicles — are the most reliable fast-charging systems in the country. But many non-Tesla fast chargers have a reputation for poor performance and sketchy reliability. EV advocates have criticized Electrify America, the company created by Volkswagen after the company's "Dieselgate" emissions scandal, for spending hundreds of millions of dollars on chargers that don't work well. The company has said they are working to improve reliability. The data analytics company J.D. Power has estimated that only 80 percent of all charging attempts in the country are successful.
Biden administration guidance requires the new publicly funded chargers to be operational 97% of the time, provide 150kW of power at each charger, and be no more than one mile from the interstate, among many other requirements.EV policy experts say those requirements are critical to building a good nationwide charging program — but also slow down the build-out of the chargers. "This funding comes with dozens of rules and requirements," Laska said. "That is the nature of what we're trying to accomplish....
"States are just not operating with the same urgency that some of the rest of us are."
The article notes that private companies are also building charging stations — but the publicly-funded spots would increase America's car-charging capacity by around 50 percent, "a crucial step to alleviating 'range anxiety' and helping Americans shift into battery electric cars.
"States just have to build them first."
And new stations are now already open in Hawaii, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania, "and under construction in four other states. Twelve additional states have awarded contracts for constructing the charging stations." A White House spokesperson said America should reach its goal of 500,000 charging stations by 2026.
So why is it that right now — more than two years after the bill's passage — why does the Federal Highway System say the program has so far only delivered seven open charging stations with a total of 38 charging spots? Nick Nigro, founder of Atlas Public Policy, said that some of the delays are to be expected. "State transportation agencies are the recipients of the money," he said. "Nearly all of them had no experience deploying electric vehicle charging stations before this law was enacted." Nigro says that the process — states have to submit plans to the Biden administration for approval, solicit bids on the work, and then award funds — has taken much of the first two years since the funding was approved. "I expect it to go much faster in 2024," he added.
"We are building a national EV charging network from scratch, and we want to get it right," a spokesperson for the Federal Highway Administration said in an email. "After developing program guidance and partnering with states to guide implementation plans, we are hitting our stride as states move quickly to bring National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure stations online...."
Part of the slow rollout is that the new chargers are expected to be held to much higher standards than previous generations of fast chargers. The United States currently has close to 10,000 "fast" charging stations in the country, of which over 2,000 are Tesla Superchargers, according to the Department of Energy. Tesla Superchargers — some of which have been opened to drivers of other vehicles — are the most reliable fast-charging systems in the country. But many non-Tesla fast chargers have a reputation for poor performance and sketchy reliability. EV advocates have criticized Electrify America, the company created by Volkswagen after the company's "Dieselgate" emissions scandal, for spending hundreds of millions of dollars on chargers that don't work well. The company has said they are working to improve reliability. The data analytics company J.D. Power has estimated that only 80 percent of all charging attempts in the country are successful.
Biden administration guidance requires the new publicly funded chargers to be operational 97% of the time, provide 150kW of power at each charger, and be no more than one mile from the interstate, among many other requirements.EV policy experts say those requirements are critical to building a good nationwide charging program — but also slow down the build-out of the chargers. "This funding comes with dozens of rules and requirements," Laska said. "That is the nature of what we're trying to accomplish....
"States are just not operating with the same urgency that some of the rest of us are."
The article notes that private companies are also building charging stations — but the publicly-funded spots would increase America's car-charging capacity by around 50 percent, "a crucial step to alleviating 'range anxiety' and helping Americans shift into battery electric cars.
"States just have to build them first."
Like so many other things, it got politicised (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Like so many other things, it got politicised (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, you are correct. Though what's funny is the people from these states are the same ones whose reps and Senators will vote against bills such as this, then go about crowing how much money they brought to their district/state [yahoo.com], citing the very bill they voted against [go.com]. Even better, when called out on their hypocrisy, they either scurry away like roaches in the light, or make up any excuse [yahoo.com] why they weren't really against the bill.
Hans Kristian Graebener = StoneToss
Re:Like so many other things, it got politicised (Score:5, Interesting)
What's wild to me is that Texas, typically considered to be the most demonstrative of conservative government-run states, is leaning into EV charging [txdot.gov] and solar power production [dallasnews.com] while these other states are screwing themselves.
The Northern states basically seem to be trying to get bypassed. Most shipping already occurs over US 10, because it's relatively straight and flat. In most areas it would be relatively cheap and convenient to widen the 10, so it could bear substantially more traffic. And it passes through Texas. They could stand to also improve the 290 and bypass thieving shitholes like Johnson City (where I got hit by a speedtrap where the speed limit sign was over half engulfed by foliage) so that it was more convenient to get to Austin when coming to TX from the east or west.
Re: Like so many other things, it got politicised (Score:2)
You mean Interstate 10, right? US 10 was in the northern US and was mostly replaced by Interstate 90.
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Sometimes they might lean in, but at the end of the day Texas is an oil state:
https://www.kut.org/energy-env... [kut.org]
https://www.texasmonthly.com/n... [texasmonthly.com]
https://www.npr.org/2023/05/14... [npr.org]
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Pro tip: people outside of California don't append "the" to road names, so if you call it "the 290" instead of something like "highway 290" in a southern or eastern state (or in some places, "route"), people will immediately know you moved there from California.
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Your pro tip isn't quite correct. The "the .." is a Southern California way of describing roads. Most of the SF Bay area and surroundings don't talk that way.
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Re:Like so many other things, it got politicised (Score:4, Insightful)
I got a brushless Makita lawnmower this morning as it happens. It's the smallest 18V model, and I've already got the batteries, that's how they get you
It's fucking awesome!
Sure it's not a big garden and I have done larger with an extension lead, back in the olden days, but it's lightweight, easy to move, powerful and remarkably efficient. Also quiet. The grass was way long, I was probably chopping it to about one third maybe quarter of it's length on the longest setting, and there was no sign of it getting bogged down at all. And it folds up neatly for storage in the shed.
I am didn't even use up one battery on the entire lawn. It's the tiny single battery version.
Sure if you have acres to do, you can keep going with a fuel powered one (though the run time of the electric one is about half the battery charging time so you can keep going indefinitely with two chargers and three batteries, which I already have, but you need more for the bigger mower). But gosh the fuel ones are heavy, noisy, smelly and you're breathing air right next to a shitty engine exhaust, and it's it me or do small engineers need just endless fuckery?
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it's it me or do small engineers need just endless fuckery?
2 stroke weedeater engines are the worst. My arm used to get so sore from repeated attempts at pull starting the damn thing, that by the time it did finally start I didn't feel like dealing with actually whipping the grass with it anymore. I switched to all cordless electric yard tools last year and it is so nice to just press the trigger and have it just work.
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My battery operated mower is going on 5 years now and it's the best mower I ever owned. No more dealing with stale gasoline or water in the carb. Pop in the battery and it runs for up to an hour. Bought the matching weed wacker to go with it too.
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lawnmowers
Most of the power yard tools at Walmart are now battery operated. They hit price parity with ICE awhile ago. The main issue with cordless electric lawn tools is that if you have a yard that is larger than what you'd typically find in densely-packed suburbia, it can take a few batteries to finish the lawn and the cost of extra batteries adds up.
Lawn tools obviously don't have any of the infrastructure issues that EVs face, because unless you've skipped out on paying your power bill, your home has an outlet
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Small lawn tool ICE engines aren't exactly the most reliable things either, and most people who don't like to tinker with them just toss those too when they no longer run properly. For folks who do like to repair things, it only requires new cells and a battery spot welder to rebuild your own packs. I'd gladly take refurbishing a battery pack over trying to figure out why a nasty greasy two stroke motor doesn't want to start, any day.
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Sorry, but in my experience electric anything is far less reliable. Over the last 25 years I've had exactly one gas lawn mower, one gas snowblower, and one gas trimmer. If you can't be bothered to change oil and a spark plug every few years, that's your problem.
I can't even count how many battery-operated cordless tools I've had to throw away because their fully-sealed battery packs have been discontinued. Except for power drills, I only buy corded tools these days.
I'd gladly take refurbishing a battery pack
Every battery pack I come across today
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Eh? This is all manufactured. The 'cloudiness' is necessary to route contracts to brothers, cousins, etc. In other words, what you are witnessing is the inefficiency of a feeding frenzy. Like sharks.
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You bought your BEV (probably at Tesla) to show everyone how much better you are than everyone else because you drive a Tesla.
To punch a hole in your theory, I drive an old Toyota FJ Cruiser. I also ride a Moto-Guzzi Motorcycle. At the same time, I have an electric lawn mower and trimmer and I commute on my eBike.
I remember a neighbor driving over, an Amazon package had been delivered to him by mistake. He was driving a full size PU and noted that I was using my electric lawn mower. While he was friendly enough, he did remark, nodding to ward the electric mower, that "I wouldn't have my of that electric s^&t."
in reality
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Because it's so easy (Score:4, Insightful)
So why is it that right now — more than two years after the bill's passage — why does the Federal Highway System say the program has so far only delivered seven open charging stations with a total of 38 charging spots?
Just buy a station from one of the manufacturers and put in place. Easy peasey. Don't worry about where to place it to be effective, or about digging up any sidewalk or parking lot, or running wires, or how to power them, or setting up payment systems, or anything else. Just spend the money so I can stop complaining how slow you're doing it.
Hans Kristian Graebener = StoneToss
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Just buy a station from one of the manufacturers and put in place. Easy peasey. Don't worry about where to place it to be effective, or about digging up any sidewalk or parking lot, or running wires, or how to power them, or setting up payment systems, or anything else. Just spend the money so I can stop complaining how slow you're doing it.
I assume you're being sarcastic but it's a little hard to tell. You have a kernel of truth: it's not crazy to just tell states to install chargers wherever they make sense. Even if the charger itself is crap, just wiring up a 100 amp circuit is a win--you can always replace the actual charger later.
States, being as political as any other organization, may need restrictions. I can see the city council of Rickets, WV putting all the chargers in the city hall parking lot where, by a remarkable coincidence, onl
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Just buy a station from one of the manufacturers and put in place. Easy peasey. Don't worry about where to place it to be effective, or about digging up any sidewalk or parking lot, or running wires, or how to power them, or setting up payment systems, or anything else. Just spend the money so I can stop complaining how slow you're doing it.
I assume you're being sarcastic but it's a little hard to tell. You have a kernel of truth: it's not crazy to just tell states to install chargers wherever they make sense. Even if the charger itself is crap, just wiring up a 100 amp circuit is a win--you can always replace the actual charger later.
A 100-amp service point won't do much, and isn't really worth putting in at all. That's good for maybe two 30A slow chargers, which aren't really all that useful in the grand scheme of things unless you're going to be there all day, i.e. they're fine at your house or at your office, but the general public isn't going to make that much use of them unless they are free, and even then, only if they happen to be at that location for some other reason. You're sure not going to drive somewhere just to add a mer
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Just buy a station from one of the manufacturers and put in place.
Both Chevron and Shell have been in the news recently for opening their first banks of tesla v4 chargers. They have literally purchased the hardware from Tesla and installed it in their existing service stations operating under their own brands.
500,000 is nothing (Score:5, Interesting)
The source [databank.nl]
(You may use google translate or such to change the language)
Most but not all of these charger were build without subsidy, when you see the kWh price they charge it's pretty obvious the owners like the income generated.
Re:500,000 is nothing (Score:4, Insightful)
>"Most but not all of these charger were build without subsidy, when you see the kWh price they charge it's pretty obvious the owners like the income generated."
Exactly.
If left to the market, the problem (or most of it) will be solved. Those seeking the supply side will carefully analyze the demand, who the customers are, what they require, what the costs will be, what they can probably charge, who the competition is, etc.
When the governments get involved, they now add red tape, waste, corruption, and this can also lead to paralysis. There will be lots of requirements that may make it not profitable to build and/or operate. And it will likely also not spur any competition, which is what keeps the price low and choice/quality/innovation higher.
The main issue here is that the government is trying to artificially create demand AND supply AND trying to force how it is done as well. I have little faith such things will turn out the best they could if mostly just left alone, perhaps just setting some standards for compatibility and cutting red tape for permitting. We didn't need the government mandating gas stations or their locations, for example. It happened organically.
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Because at the moment there are not many EV's the investors in chargers are biding their time, this needs government intervention to get going.
As a voter I would not worry too much about corruption, next time around you should vote the corrupt ones out.
(If life would only be that easy)
B.t.w, most fast chargers are at or near a food place and from experience I can say the b
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Leaving it to the free market is awkward to say the least. If people dont want to buy electric cars because there arent enough charging stations a lot of companies arent going to be fond of spending the money to build them because people dont want to buy electric cars. It's a (at least partial) feedback loop that slows deployment and since we're looking to rapidly deploy these new forms of cars to help combat global warming having government step in to speed things up makes sense.
Sure, some countries have h
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If you want something done and the free market is either not accomplishing it or not accomplishing it fast enough then you're either stuck giving up your goals or you need government to step in. It's not that complex.
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Yup, my turn to be lost.
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We didn't need the government mandating gas stations or their locations, for example. It happened organically.
Except for the whole National Interstate Highway System thing.
Or decades of government support for oil and gas infrastructure, subsidies and protections via US military force and presence.
And that's just the federal government, the state and locals actually maintain those roads, enforce safety and traffic regulations on said roads, permit the location, consumer protections and safety issues for fuel stations and the highways themselves (all things which allow the industry to thrive as it does)
To be clear I
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We didn't need the government mandating gas stations or their locations, for example. It happened organically.
Except anyone can see that even the first ICE cars had a great benefit to horses in terms of range and convienence. At best it isn't clear if EVs are better than ICEs at all. There has been a recent rash of articles that most aren't even better than ICEs with regards to pollution if you take the fill manufacturing chain into account.
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Except anyone can see that even the first ICE cars had a great benefit to horses in terms of range and convienence.
I'm sure people had range anxiety back then too, it's not like there was a 7-11 on ever street corner in the early days of the automobile. With a horse, the fuel literally grew on the side of the road, so I'm sure people were making similar arguments about why you'd be foolish not to stick with the horse.
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That market you're talking about taxes the everloving fuck out of petrol in the Netherlands, with a price being about $2.16 per litre according to the Internets. Whereas in the US we're looking at around $3.00 per US gallon, or about $0.80 per litre.
If petrol was $0.80 or less per litre how eager would they be switching over to EVs?
EVERY market is distorted, you just have different places it happens and different amounts.
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Yet various countries want to make people leave ICE transport by making the price of electricity competitive.
Like in Denmark the tax on your home electricity for an EV has a 0.8 kroner deduction, depending on the wind and sun this can be around 20% to 50% off.
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When the governments get involved, they now add red tape, waste, corruption, and this can also lead to paralysis.
Complete government deregulation of the market is what has lead to tons of incompatible chargers that require you to install an app on your phone to use them.
Most of the time the government screws everything up is because the biggest corporations own the government and can buy whatever regulations will force their competitors out of business. Rather than whining that the government can't do anything right, perhaps we should start breaking up all the corporate monopolies and refuse to allow 50+ billion-doll
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If left to the market
Except we, the USA, does not REALLY have a free market. Wealth is too concentrated to have a Free Market. So how will the market sort it out? It will sort it out like it is currently sorting it out. Eventually, the income streams will settle onto a few very small groups, but the mess until then will be amazing to witness.
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How is it possible to have a fraction of a public charger?
Why government? (Score:3)
Re:Why government? (Score:4, Interesting)
Because the free market is failing in this respect. Third party chargers are kind of a shit show. Say a hotel install some charging stations. The hotel has no control over their repairs or maintenance or even uptime. It could break on the first day and never get repaired. Then comes payment. None of them accept credit cards so you're forced to install their payment app which may or may not decide to function today. Imagine pulling into a BP and not being able to buy gas because your phone only has the Shell app and the BP app isn't working.
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Re:Why government? (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree completely. And while we're at it, let's cut all subsidies, direct and indirect, to the fossil fuel sector. Electric cars are still building out infrastructure. Fossil fuel corporations have been sucking on the government teat for generations. Time for them to get out of Uncle Sam's basement and live on their own, and time for ICE drivers to pay the real cost of gasoline rather than the taxpayer-subsidized price.
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I agree completely. And while we're at it, let's cut all subsidies, direct and indirect, to the fossil fuel sector. Electric cars are still building out infrastructure. Fossil fuel corporations have been sucking on the government teat for generations. Time for them to get out of Uncle Sam's basement and live on their own, and time for ICE drivers to pay the real cost of gasoline rather than the taxpayer-subsidized price.
Because every representative that pulled that one would be out of a Job fast.
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LOL. You're not wrong, but sometimes it's good to remind taxpayers that the people they should be punching aren't necessarily the ones corporations keep putting in front of them.
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Time for them to get out of Uncle Sam's basement and live on their own, and time for ICE drivers to pay the real cost of gasoline rather than the taxpayer-subsidized price.
Last I checked we're still moving goods around in trucks that run on fossil fuels, and a lot of low-income folks rely on their ICE car to get to work (and you probably rely on the jobs some of them are doing). You may have an EV, I may have an EV, but a lot of people don't.
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Meanwhile, Tesla are rumored to be spending somewhere around $250,000 per 8-stall Supercharger station.
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So, $375,000 per charger. Not per station. With an expected 4 chargers per station, that's a $1.5 million subsidy per station. Remember that these stations will be run for profit.
So, why are we subsidizing these? We all know that electric cars are here and that the shift is happening. It isn't 100% in every region nor application, however it is growing quickly. Tesla built out their own charger network all across America and they are a tiny car company. Hello GM? Ford? BMW? Even Kia? Where are your charger station builds? Why do we need to waste time and tax money on this when it is going to be much faster, easier, and cheaper for a commercial interest to help build out chargers?
Tesla is EV-only so needed the charger network to make their vehicles viable. The other car companies can still sell ICEs (and they're not in the mindset of handling the fueling) or just pay Tesla to build chargers [bnnbloomberg.ca].
But I think the main issue is that a charging station probably isn't particularly profitable at this point.
First, you've got the headache of negotiating with the business owner to get the parking spots. Then the hardware cost of the charger and installation (including power), then the cost of ser
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But I think the main issue is that a charging station probably isn't particularly profitable at this point.
And that's because they've learned nothing from the business model used by gas stations. The charging station also needs to be a place where people can buy coffee / cigarettes (yuck, but some people are smokers) / lotto tickets / beer / soda / snacks / sandwiches and use the restroom. That's how you make a profit.
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But I think the main issue is that a charging station probably isn't particularly profitable at this point.
And that's because they've learned nothing from the business model used by gas stations. The charging station also needs to be a place where people can buy coffee / cigarettes (yuck, but some people are smokers) / lotto tickets / beer / soda / snacks / sandwiches and use the restroom. That's how you make a profit.
That won't work for EVs since the wait is longer.
The perfect niche is a restaurant on the highway, but the model there isn't a franchise of charging station/restaurants, it's charging stations showing up in existing restaurants, but getting the restaurants to pay you to stick chargers in their lot to draw more customers is probably a tough sell (and again, you don't have a big incentive to keep them well maintained).
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You forgot to factor in the replacement cable cost for when meth addicts cut them off for the copper.
The sad truth is... (Score:3)
...that government funded projects like this often just enrich the politically connected and waste a lot of money
I'm slightly hopeful that some chargers will be installed, but they will be compromised by all of the roadblocks put up with bureaucrats who care more about providing jobs for their cronies and getting headlines than actually accomplishing the goal
charging time (Score:2)
Charging time is a real issue. Large numbers of electric cars are going to clog up those charging stations and there would cars lined up waiting to charge. I think current electric cars are good but they require more improvement, like faster charge time, for more adoption. Its not just about range, its also about waiting around. If your ICE car runs out of gas you can bring a can of gas to it. Can't really bring a battery to your electric car if its depleted.
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In January the contract ended and they doubled the price so now I charge at the Tesla stations which have a nicer price.
Last week was the first time in 32,000 kms (20,000mi) I had to wait for a charger to become available, that was because 2 of the 8 Tesla chargers were out of service and I did
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Exactly, without fast charging, charging stations need to look like travel centers with lots of (working chargers) chargers and eating/shopping. In the US there are lots of stories of planned trips delayed or failed because the chargers didn't work at the destination the one working one had a line. More charging stations helps but better technology is the real solution.
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Exactly, without fast charging, charging stations need to look like travel centers with lots of (working chargers) chargers and eating/shopping. In the US there are lots of stories of planned trips delayed or failed because the chargers didn't work at the destination the one working one had a line. More charging stations helps but better technology is the real solution.
Even with fast charging, they need to look like travel centers with stuff to do. Most people don't want to sit around for 30 to 60 minutes doing nothing.
Without fast charging, they need to look an awful lot like hotels, because you're gonna be charging overnight before you get underway.
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But things are rapidly developing, everywhere I see new chargers being build, both fast and 'regular' for people that can't charge at home or like at parking spaces near offices or shops.
I'd have used it for extortion (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine if the government took that money and told the major fuelling stations at highway rest stops - "install x chargers per gas pump and we'll subsidize it 50%, or we'll take the pile of cash and build our own charging stations right next to you and you'll get nothing".
The restaurants would love it since people would be waiting around 30 minutes or more instead of being in and out in 5. That's going to result in more business for sure. In fact... maybe ignore the fuelling station and go straight to whoever owns the restaurants for the deal.
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Imagine if the government took that money and told the major fuelling stations at highway rest stops - "install x chargers per gas pump and we'll subsidize it 50%, or we'll take the pile of cash and build our own charging stations right next to you and you'll get nothing".
Even without a subsidy some major gas station owners are installing EV charging stalls (such as Shell Recharge). It is not happening quickly of course, but it is happening.
Are chargers compatible with any brand? (Score:2)
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The short and simple answer: Here in America (where the article is referent to) we're starting to get that problem sorted, but give it another few years.
The more detailed answer: CHAdeMO (used mostly by the Nissan Leaf) is in service but getting phased out. CCS Type 1 (not compatible with CCS Type 2 used in Europe!) was the official standard for cars that weren't Tesla or Nissan, until everyone decided to bail on it and switch to NACS. So CCS Type 1 will soon be on the way out, but that's going to take
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Excellent summary, to sum it up it's another 5-ish years of being a hot mess until everyone gets onboard with NACS which also still means the US has it's own standard while the rest of the world is on another.
If Tesla had *actually opened* up their standard back in like 2014 when they said they would the industry probably would have adopted it worldwide and we would be in a worldwide Tesla charger standard. Honestly shortsighted move by Musk and Tesla. I understand their reasons (bad look to have non-Tesl
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I doubt whether there was ever much chance of a worldwide unified standard. The CCS Type 2 special trick is support for 3-phase AC, which is more available to European residential buildings. Meanwhile, Japan and China are (supposedly) transitioning to ChaoJi, which is also known as CHAdeMO 3.0 but has a completely different plug from existing CHAdeMO. If I understand correctly, ChaoJi re-uses the same pins for AC and DC power much like the Supercharger/NACS plug and should provide similar benefits.
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CCS was looking like the closest thing to a world standard. As I understood it the Japanese brands were ready to ditch chademo and CCS has two somewhat compatible versions, for 3 phase and single phase
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NACS is semi-compatible with the older Tesla Supercharger standard—meaning that newer Supercharger stations support NACS as well as legacy Teslas, but older Supercharger stations don't support newer non-Tesla NACS cars, and NACS chargers from companies other than Tesla won't support older Tesla cars.
To pick nits, older Tesla cars can already get CCS compatibility upgrades. It's just a straightforward ECU module swap.
Right now, Tesla only sells it as a kit with a CCS adapter for (I think) about $500 (half of which is the price of the adapter itself), but once you start to see non-compatible NACS chargers on the market, they'll presumably offer an upgrade without the adapter for considerably less than that.
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> For instance, can a Tesla super charger charge a BMW or GM EV and vice versa?
This isn't an issue in Europe; The EU had the sense to force Tesla to use the CCS2 standard before they became entrenched with their proprietary connector and protocol. All EVs in Europe use CCS2 so you can use any charger from any brand no problem.
In North America, Tesla is opening up their network to other manufacturers and other manufacturers are gearing up to have their vehicles use the J3400 connector. Ford and Rivian own
Actually doing it is harder than writing a rule (Score:3)
"States are just not operating with the same urgency that some of the rest of us are."
Yeah because unlike unfunded federal mandates, states have to y'know, but the land, set up the infrastructure, and build the things with actual money, not just 'write a rule that other people are compelled to follow'.
150kW per charger
Say an absolute minimum of 10 chargers per station (likely many more, given the extended dwell times for charging), so that's 1.5mW per station. On the 8 hour highway from msp to ord you need at least what, 3 such stations....so you essentially have to find/build 5mW power as well.
None of those is trivial, nor quick.
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"States are just not operating with the same urgency that some of the rest of us are."
Yeah because unlike unfunded federal mandates, states have to y'know, but the land, set up the infrastructure, and build the things with actual money, not just 'write a rule that other people are compelled to follow'.
And in some locations getting the power company to install megawatts of transformer capacity can take quite some time. While every location is going to be unique, over a year just for the utility connection has been seen in some cases for the Tesla supercharger construction processes.
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And in some locations getting the power company to install megawatts of transformer capacity can take quite some time.
Not a problem. They can just drop a diesel genset [ifunny.co] in next to the charging site.
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> states have to y'know, but the land, set up the infrastructure, and build the things with actual money
The state does none of this, private companies do. The states are just middlemen handling the money.
=Smidge=
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Not sure if naive or just an EV fanboi trying to score points.
The states ABSOLUTELY have to rezone things, SET UP THE INFRASTRUCTURE ie roads (& power lines, because while we pretend that private companies do that stuff, in effect they are government-sanctioned monopolies) frequently write legislation and pass it for the incremental financing for all these things.
I'm pretty sure a charging station needs to sit on land, no? Who buys it? Usually this is going to be either extremely expensive, require en
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> The states ABSOLUTELY have to rezone things
They absolutely do not. Would be nice if they did, maybe, but the chargers usually get installed on private property and, other than local building permits, requires no government intervention. Even on government property there's no need for the government to get involved beyond giving permission (via a contract.)
> because while we pretend that private companies do that stuff, in effect they are government-sanctioned monopolies
They are still private compani
"and be no more than one mile from the interstate" (Score:1)
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And people wonder why there is so much blow back from the rural parts of America. Probably half of us live 50 mi or more from the nearest interstate.
If you lived 50 miles from the nearest gas station that would be a problem, but with an EV you just charge it at home. If you live out in the middle of nowhere an EV actually makes more sense since your fuel savings will be substantially larger than someone who lives in the city and only has a 10 mile commute.
Marketplace Should Be Building Them (Score:1)
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Right now the profit motive still favours burning hydrocarbons - the infrastructure already exists, no changes are required.
Burning hydrocarbons, it turns out, it very bad for us and has a lot of externalized costs we've been ignoring for over 100 years now. The government is changing the market to get through the roll-out phase. Combined with improving battery technology there will come a time when the profit motive favours electricity.
The goal is to transition sooner than the unfettered market would, be
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Right now the profit motive still favours burning hydrocarbons
So explain Tesla's charging network. It works and, from what I hear, quite well. The Volkswagen charging network was probably crap because it was motivated by spending money to keep the government off their back rather than building out a quality product.
because the market doesn't give a sweet damn about the external costs
So I should expect the next Tesla model to have a 6.2 Liter Hemi V8?
Nationalize and electrify the railroads (Score:2)
Re: Nationalize and electrify the railroads (Score:2)
Unfortunately, the freight rail companies in the US see no short-term profit in electrifying their networks, and the shareholders of those companies would rather sell their shares to private equity firms instead of the government.
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Trains still have a last mile problem, which actually turns into a last several miles problem in the suburbs, and forget rural areas. So, outside of cities you still end up needing cars, and when you have a car anyway, you may as well just drive to your destination.
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Suburbs are what city transit is for.
Problem is, I don't want to sit on a bus next to some MAGA idiot any more than they want to sit next to a "fag couple". At least with privately owned vehicles, the MAGA guy can happily listen to his right wing podcast in his coal rollin' pickup truck, and my partner and I can be in our Chevy Bolt, laughing at the guy for wasting fuel as a misguided political statement.
All the while, people outside America are probably thinking "Wow, your country is so messed up."
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You mean "sit quietly on the bus and pretend we're just good friends, so that the homophobes don't get spooked?" Oh, and also turn off the pride flag on my Apple Watch, and tell my partner he probably shouldn't wear his favorite Disney Loungefly.
Fuck that. We're taking our car.
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With Florida having recently legalized constitutional concealed carry, a confrontation has the potential for ending very badly. I also can't stress enough the kind of sketchy people who ride the bus around here. People who can afford to do so ride those Chinese 50cc scooters, and there's even a UTV with a tag on it that I regularly see parked at my local Publix. The bus is literally for people who can't even get their finances together well enough to drive those sort of vehicles around town, and if you h
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Look I get it. It took me 20 years to come out the closet. I hope you can some day, but it does involve growing a pair, showing that rainbow flag anyway, and being prepared to fight back potentially to the death. But also not living in fear because those people are a tiny minority even in places like Oklahoma where I live now. Hell, Portland, Oregon's the most homophobic and racist place I've ever lived by a wide margin and was there from 1982 (birth) to 2010.
But also, you're still speaking to a need to
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This [orlandosentinel.com] is the kind of stuff happening in my state. My partner actually even has a picture of one of their marches through Altamonte Springs from when we were driving through the area at the time. I think you and I might have varying definitions of what it means to be "out". I'm not going to lie or hide my sexuality, but I've never much bought into the concept that it's noble to end up a martyr. If my partner and I can live our life in this red state without poking the increasingly loudly buzzing hornet's
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I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree on this, because even the most idyllic form of public transportation that I've personally experienced (that'd be at Walt Disney World) is still inconvenient and crowded. Travelling between the various hotels, shops and attractions at the resort, it is still generally quicker to just go back to your car and drive yourself.
People who have the preference to live in lower-density areas don't want to see them become urbanized. We live in the suburbs because we enjoy the
Because Subsidizing the Rich is Not Important (Score:2, Insightful)
No. The issue is bad subsidies. (Score:2)
Stick them at gas stations... (Score:2)
Putting fast chargers in at gas stations seems like a great idea. Gas stations could get more revenue from EV charging (and from people who stop at the gas station to charge and spend money on food and stuff while they wait for their EV to charge) and there are many gas stations located close to the interstates.
Plus having it as part of (or even just located right next to) a gas station makes it a more attractive place to stop (because of the availability of food and toilets and things) than if it was just
Because it's more than just bolting something down (Score:3)
Here's what you need:
0. Assumption that you have a worthwhile chance at winning the grant
1. Grant writer/manager ($$)
2. Project managers ($$)
3. Planning lead time with your utility
4. A worthwhile location (within a mile of an alternative fuels corridor, preferably near low-income housing, preferably near arguably rural space, etc.)
5. Matching funds ($$)
6. A plan with costings and estimates not just for where the chargers may go, but all the other facilities that will have to support the safe and compliant ingress/egress of all the potential users of the EV charging location. That may mean putting in a new signalized intersection and crosswalks. ($$)
Once you have all that, you can apply and roll the dice. And if you win, then you have to bid out all the construction work, select the hardware, and begin the process of procuring all the hardware, and validate the digital security of the EV chargers/transactors. Ya, the chargers are relatively easy to get, but the transformers? We're looking at a 2-year lead time unless you want to pay scalper prices.
It's a LOT of f*cking work and money to put in chargers where there isn't already an abundance/overbuild of power.
AND THEN THERE'S MANAGEMENT!
These need to be treated like gas stations. They need to be price-controlled, validated for fuel delivery, maintained, etc. You're going to need to handle customer service, complaints, and accusations of overcharging/gouging because people think that should ONLY pay for the cost of the electricity-- or worse, a SUBSIDIZED cost of electricity. Because they're single-handedly saving the environment by driving an electric luxury vehicle.
All this while public agencies throughout the US are going through silent recessions-- being asked to cut 3-10% of budgets because wages keep going up (because rents keep going up).
Anyone who complains about the lack of haste in rolling out EV infrastructure has no clue about rolling out or managing EV infrastructure.
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LOL, you seem to think this bill was anything other than pork. This is an announcement that the government is giving away billions of dollars to the connected elite. Look at the results to see the truth of the matter.
Two reasons (Score:2)
Two reasons: 1) It takes time for corporations and states to co-ordinate and prove their compliance to federal requirements. 2) The subsidy is being used to demand a fix-everything level of compliance, which many corporations and restaurants can't afford.
The fossil-fuel industry has earned profits over the last 40 years by lying to everyone: If the government really wants to fix fossil-fuel-based problems, they can start by clawing-back some the reward shareholders received for increasing pollution a
Didn't see Southern states in list... (Score:2)
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Putting charging stations up in locations in high crime areas will result in a waste of resources as few if any will risk their life or vehicles. Putting charging stations/parking lots in residential neighborhoods, next to schools and churches require some thought.
Putting charging stations in those locations would be idiotic. You're going to have your car plugged in for the better part of an hour or more, and there's really nothing for non-residents to do in a residential neighborhood other than committing burglary or arson. And residents can put up their own chargers in their own driveways/garages for far less money (and far less money per kWh), so they have no real need for charging stations near their homes.
Churches, with the possible exception of churches that