How You Can Charge Your EV If You Don't Own a House (yahoo.com) 186
"According to one study, homeowners are three times more likely than renters to own an electric vehicle," writes the Washington Post. But others still have options:
Drivers who park on the street have found novel ways to charge their vehicles, using extension cords running over the sidewalk or even into the branches of a nearby tree... [S]ome municipalities explicitly allow over-the-sidewalk charging as part of a broader strategy to cut transportation emissions... In some areas, homeowners can also hire an electrician to run power under the sidewalk to a curbside charging port. But homeowners should check local rules and permitting requirements for curbside charging. In some highly EV-friendly cities, local governments will cover the costs. In Seattle, a pilot program is installing faster curbside charging to residents who opt in to the program...
If home charging simply isn't an option, some drivers rely on public charging — either using workplace chargers or charging occasionally on DC fast chargers, which can bring an EV battery from 0 to 80 percent in around 20 minutes. The problem is that public charging is more expensive than charging at home — although in most places, still less expensive than gas... For drivers who have access to Tesla superchargers, public charging might still be a solid option — but for non-Tesla drivers, it's still a challenge. Many fast chargers can be broken for days or weeks on end, or can be crowded with other drivers. The popular charging app PlugShare can help EV owners find available charging ports, but relying on public fast charging can quickly become a pain for drivers used to quickly filling up on gas. In those situations, a plug-in hybrid or regular hybrid car might be a better option.
And beyond that, "experts say that there are a key few steps that renters or condo owners can take to access charging," according to the article: The first is looking up local "right-to-charge" laws — regulations that require homeowners' associations or landlords to allow residents to install Level 1 or Level 2 charging. Ten states have "right-to-charge" laws on the books. In California and Colorado, for example, renters or homeowners have the right to install charging at their private parking space or, in some cases, in a public area at their apartment building. Other states, including Florida, Hawaii and New Jersey, have similar but limited laws. Residents can also reach out to landlords or property owners directly and make the case for installing charging infrastructure. All of this "puts a fair amount of onus on the driver," said Ben Prochazka, the executive director of the Electrification Coalition. But, he added, many EV advocacy groups are working on changing building codes in cities and states so that all multifamily homes with parking have to be "EV-ready."
Ingrid Malmgren, policy director at the EV advocacy group Plug In America, tells the newspaper that "communities all over the country are coming up with creative solutions. And it's just going to get easier and easier."
If home charging simply isn't an option, some drivers rely on public charging — either using workplace chargers or charging occasionally on DC fast chargers, which can bring an EV battery from 0 to 80 percent in around 20 minutes. The problem is that public charging is more expensive than charging at home — although in most places, still less expensive than gas... For drivers who have access to Tesla superchargers, public charging might still be a solid option — but for non-Tesla drivers, it's still a challenge. Many fast chargers can be broken for days or weeks on end, or can be crowded with other drivers. The popular charging app PlugShare can help EV owners find available charging ports, but relying on public fast charging can quickly become a pain for drivers used to quickly filling up on gas. In those situations, a plug-in hybrid or regular hybrid car might be a better option.
And beyond that, "experts say that there are a key few steps that renters or condo owners can take to access charging," according to the article: The first is looking up local "right-to-charge" laws — regulations that require homeowners' associations or landlords to allow residents to install Level 1 or Level 2 charging. Ten states have "right-to-charge" laws on the books. In California and Colorado, for example, renters or homeowners have the right to install charging at their private parking space or, in some cases, in a public area at their apartment building. Other states, including Florida, Hawaii and New Jersey, have similar but limited laws. Residents can also reach out to landlords or property owners directly and make the case for installing charging infrastructure. All of this "puts a fair amount of onus on the driver," said Ben Prochazka, the executive director of the Electrification Coalition. But, he added, many EV advocacy groups are working on changing building codes in cities and states so that all multifamily homes with parking have to be "EV-ready."
Ingrid Malmgren, policy director at the EV advocacy group Plug In America, tells the newspaper that "communities all over the country are coming up with creative solutions. And it's just going to get easier and easier."
This was kind of a major problem (Score:5, Informative)
Re:This was kind of a major problem (Score:5, Informative)
It should also be understood that when Tesla owners enable their security features when not driving, the burn-down of the battery is incredible, and apartment dwellers are more likely to do this than private garage owners. For people who fill up the gas cars and then don't drive for a week, they won't understand how that is a terrible idea for a Tesla. If you're a Tesla owner you have to turn off that stupid sentry shit or be prepared to see half of more of your charge consumed running computers to watch the cameras. No shit.
No consideration has ever been given for Tesla owners who don't have access to a private garage with charging and WiFi. You do it Musk's way or FU.
Re: This was kind of a major problem (Score:3)
It's a shame Tesla is the only EV manufacturer, maybe Rivian, GM, Ford, etc could step up and offer buyers a choice...
Re:This was kind of a major problem (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean, you do it Musk's way or you go into the car settings and flip a switch.
I say this respectfully, but of all the possible things Elon may or may not have done wrong, giving customers the choice to have their camera watch and record motion seems like really small fries.
At the absolute most, you're complaining about whether the switch is on or off by default (or always prompts the user for a setting during initial car setup). A veritable molehill.
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Have they removed the ultrasonic sensors from Teslas? Seems like you could just use those to determine when to turn the cameras on, rather than doing machine vision.
Or use an accelerometer to determine when something bumps the car. That's was a lot of dashcams do.
Re:This was kind of a major problem (Score:5, Insightful)
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You can build as many chargers as you want, you just can't have them all charge at the same time. 250 appartments and capacity for 6 charging at the same time means every appartment gets half an hour per day, a quarter hour if all charging is done at night. That is a bit scant if you're looking at a future with 100% electric cars, but an immediate upgrade of the building power station is probably unnecessary.
If the building code requires each space to be able to supply 12 kWh in an 8 hour window, that's a t
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The solution is a group of chargers that share power. With a decent system they can actually measure the load on the entire building and use what is left over for charging. People with houses sometimes have them so they can e.g. run an electric shower and hob without overloading the supply when the car is plugged in.
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To a certain extent that kind of pisses me off (Score:3)
If apartments were more competitive that would be less of an issue because there would be pressure to keep prices down but with the complete lack of competition in that market thanks to massive mergers and buyouts and apartment companies using apps to collude on pricing they can just pass the cost directly on to renters.
And in any case to
Re:This was kind of a major problem (Score:5, Insightful)
for Chicago. A bunch of people in apartments had been using super chargers for their teslas, when the snow came and the temps got super cold there was a huge spike in demand for chargers and a lot of them couldn't get hooked up in time before their batteries died (not that long in the cold, since extreme cold kills range), resulting in a huge mess where they'd clog up the charging stations waiting for tows...
It's a bit more complicated than that. Cold itself doesn't "kill range". Cold lowers your range by O(10%) at a few degrees below freezing because of differences in wind resistance when the air is more dense, higher rolling resistance on the tires, etc. The impact isn't reallythat big.
Using the heat to keep the car warm, however, can lower the range by close to half if your car is one of the older ones with resistance heat. Newer, heat-pump-based cars don't take nearly as much of a hit. The seat heater is also a useful alternative to heating up the entire car if you're not planning a long trip, because that uses way less power. Using the seat heaters plus resistance heat, of course, has a horrible range impact.
The bigger problem, however, is that temperatures make charging time increase pretty dramatically, by half an hour or more per charge session, because your car first must bring the battery up to a temperature where it can actually accept a charge. So instead of a Model Y charging to 80% in 27 minutes, it might take an hour, and instead of a Model X taking 75 minutes to reach 90%, it might take two hours.
And although Tesla tries to preheat the battery on your way to the Supercharger (preconditioning), if the supercharger is completely full and you have to wait an hour after you get there, A. you've wasted power preconditioning for no reason, and B. the battery is going to cool back down before you plug in. Thus, you still pay the battery heating time penalty when you plug into the supercharger, but because you also used extra power on the unnecessary first preconditioning, you also pay an additional time hit to replace the energy spent for that extra unnecessary preconditioning.
So there are lots of factors here:
Between those factors, you have a recipe for people running out of power before they can charge if they come in at too low a state-of-charge.
Tesla desperately needs a proper reservation system at superchargers. In fact, Tesla desperately needs to figure out which stall is best for incoming vehicles based on their state of charge. Sometimes, it might be faster for a car that's really low on charge to wait a couple of extra minutes to plug in and get on a group of chargers that will give them 250kW charging speed versus one where everybody else just plugged in and they'll get 120 kW or less.
And having a functioning reservation system would entirely solve this problem, because people could see that they're going to have to wait three hours, and could go to a different, less busy supercharger before they get there, and if that isn't possible, they could at least leave their car and go inside a store and wait, rather than continuing to burn huge amounts of power to keep the car warm while they're waiting for a charger to open up.
We've been complaining about the lack of a reservation system for many years now. Here's hoping this huge black mark will cause Tesla's management to pull their heads out of their collective a**es and finally implement it.
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My first Leaf had a heat pump, and it cost about 5% range with a full battery. Assuming you had it running constantly, but of course once heated up it cycled on and off.
Typically heat pumps in cars are about 3kW peak, which handles both the cabin and battery. Maintaining cabin temperature is usually around 500W average, in very cold weather.
Re:This was kind of a major problem (Score:5, Insightful)
What happened here has been misstated a bit.
The pile-up at the superchargers involved a lot of Uber drivers who had been using them -- not necessarily apartment dwellers. And a lot of those folks weren't especially familiar with the cars.
Cold does three things to batteries: 1) it dramatically reduces the rate at which they can be charged, 2) it reduces the voltage they will supply at any given state of charge, 3) it creates increased demand for their energy to heat things up.
As the experience of a ton of Canadians and Norwegians shows, Teslas and other EV's are fine in the cold. They can use the stored energy in their battery to warm said battery up, then go on about their merry way doing whatever they would do. If they're plugged in to a slower charger, they can even pre-warm the battery in preparation for departure. When it's moderately cold the waste heat from the motor/inverter/battery is enough to keep the battery warm; when it's extremely cold the battery needs to supply some extra power to do this.
The problem here was the charging side. These batteries charge slowly in the cold and need to be preheated or "preconditioned" -- it prefers to be at 50 Celsius for fastest charging. I believe on Teslas you do this by putting a Supercharger address into the car's sat-nav, and it will figure this out and time the preheating so it's ready to charge when you get there.
The trouble is that people showed up at the Supercharger not knowing to do this. So they plug in, their battery's at -20C, and it is charging VERY slowly until it gets heated up.
Meanwhile there's a line of people waiting in the cold. Some of them probably properly preconditioned their batteries -- which is the right thing to do if you're about to connect to the Supercharger. But they get there and all the plugs are taken up by people charging at 5 kW with frozen batteries. Theirs are nice and toasty, but they are waiting in line to get there ... while continuing to expend energy keeping their batteries at temperature. At some point they have to either turn off preconditioning or run out of energy, leading to a cascade failure.
This could have been solved with either better education about preconditioning or access to more plentiful slower ("Level 2") chargers. I don't know how those are in Chicago, but there are a zillion where I live in Syracuse.
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(Only ever modded down for telling the truth.)
Re: Meanwhile, in L.A. (Score:3)
Re: Meanwhile, in L.A. (Score:5, Informative)
I remember a series of videos from the Technology Connections channel on YouTube, an EV owner in the Chicago area that documented his experiences in driving an EV as well as negotiating the installation of an EVSE for his car. It was enlightening. I'm going from memory so if someone wants to head over to the channel to watch the videos and correct where my memory failed me then be my guest.
He pointed out that with some discussion with the management he arranged for buying his own charger, paying for the labor to install, as well as how he documented the added electric fees since his EVSE was on the building electric meter than the one for his living unit. He documented his electric consumption with some kind of meter that the building managers could trust, then built up a history of using something like $30 of electricity per month. At some point there was a failure of the meter so rather than fix this issue, and spend the extra time documenting electric usage, he came up with a compromise of paying $50 per month (or whatever, see disclaimer above about this being from memory) to satisfy everyone in the building that he was paying his "fair share" on the electric bill.
Now the point... If this guy could get away with paying at extra $50 per month to satisfy the management and other building occupants that he was paying for his electrical usage to charge up his car then what stops a building manager from installing an electrical outlet at each parking space, with some appropriate voltage and breaker rating for plugging in an EVSE, starter battery trickle charger, engine block heater, or whatever else the renters might want in their parking spot, and adding another $50 to the rent to make up for the added electrical use? My guess is nothing. The outlets might not have a meter but then neither do the lights in the other publicly accessible spaces. Assuming there's something preventing people wandering in off the street to mess with things in the parking space then there's not likely to be much issue with having the outlets accessible to other renters in the building.
A common 120VAC/20A outlet is often enough power for people to get an overnight recharge to cover the typical daily commute. That's a pretty low cost option for the building management to install and maintain. Getting to 240VAC/20A is a trivial amount extra cost but double the charging power. Having 240VAC/30A outlets is a trivial bit extra on top, and should make all but the most road warrior BEV driver happy on getting a recharge in a reasonable time.
Indeed, there will need to be some additional funds needed for the initial install, as well as recurring costs for maintenance and electricity. This should be relative noise on the total cost of operating the building, and some minimal extra on the rent should cover that cost. If the renter doesn't have an EV then they might still appreciate the outlet at the parking spot for a block heater or something where the weather could get cold. Maybe the manager can put cheap night lights with colored Christmas bulbs in them and sell it as an easy way for renters to find their parking spot, "your spot has the blue light on the left." If people would rather have something else plugged in then they have that option. By default have one of those combination duplex outlets with a 120VAC outlet and a 240VAC outlet so renters can choose either voltage, then charge a small fee for swapping that out for a four prong 240VAC/30A outlet if they have a "real" EVSE to put in. I'm pretty sure the managers can charge for such changes without running afoul of some rule and/or taking on some financial burden they'd rather not take on.
The building owner isn't going to have any financial burden for providing or maintaining the EVSE, that would be the responsibility of the renter on what is plugged into the outlet provided. I don't have much in first hand experience in EV ownership but from what I have seen most EVs come with a portable charge cable for 120VAC outlets, and again this is
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In Norway they just require meters. They are generally speaking extremely reliable. Your house meter doesn't break very often, in fact I've never heard of one dying.
The issue Technology Connections had was, IIRC, because he was using smart features of the charger for metering. In Norway they have a separate meter, up to the legal spec for billing.
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Over-the-sidewalk (Score:5, Insightful)
Wheelchairs.
Under-the sidewalk: Permanent installation. Now you have effectively tried to reserve a parking space due to your investment. One space one way or the other probably won't matter due to charging cord lengths. But what do you do if all the spaces are taken up? You are now on a level with people who put a lawn chair or traffic cone in the street to reserve "their" space. Fistfights and gunfights ensue.
Street lights (Score:4, Interesting)
Street lights are spec'd for incandescent bulbs and are being replaced with LEDs. They have excess power capability
All you need is an appropriate outlet and a way to charge for the energy. Have the car send an ID to the lamp post where the owner account can be accessed.
An electric device that replaces the access panel at the base of the lamp with 2 outlets and a microcontroller. Add data line for communications and account verification.
Communication to the central office would need to be added, but there's probably an RF solution using the wires in the pole as an antenna with BLE to a box on the street connected to a data line - in the manner of a phone line box or electrical box. One box could probably provide data service for 50 lamp posts in the area.
Sounds like a business opportunity for someone who can design consumer power electronics.
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Street lights are spec'd for incandescent bulbs
Sodium vapor in most cases. That would be about 70 Watts per fixture. Bring that down to 10 or 20 for an LED and maybe you could free up enough power for one Level 1 (120V) plug at best. We have one street light for every 400 or 500 feet along our street. So the battle over who gets the one plug for an all-night charge will get interesting.
Our street-light poles are on the wrong side of the sidewalk for convenient charging. Because of the handicapped access.
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Yep, and even the original 70 or even 100watts is 10 times less than enough for a normal level 1 charging rate. So unless they seriously overwired those poles you are not even going to get 1 mile per hour. Not worth a fist-fight.
Back-of-the-envelope calculations (Score:2)
Street lights are spec'd for incandescent bulbs
Sodium vapor in most cases. That would be about 70 Watts per fixture. Bring that down to 10 or 20 for an LED and maybe you could free up enough power for one Level 1 (120V) plug at best. We have one street light for every 400 or 500 feet along our street. So the battle over who gets the one plug for an all-night charge will get interesting.
Our street-light poles are on the wrong side of the sidewalk for convenient charging. Because of the handicapped access.
Sodium lamp street lamps can draw up to 1000 watts, and be replaced by a 70 watt LED. There's a lot of variation, but you don't need to convert the low power lamps.
It's also not directly a difference between new and old - the wires powering the lights are underground, use standard wire sizes, and are in most cases underspec'd - they calculate the total power and use the next higher wire size that will handle the power.
So in reality there might be 900 watts available at the pole. A Tesla battery can hold 50
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You can trail the cable along the gutter to your car, so you don't have to park right in front of your building.
Really though, the solution is to just install chargers along the street with RFID for billing. Street lights can have them added now that they have excess capacity thanks to switching to LEDs.
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It's also part of the "security", you unplug the entire extension cord and remove it when not charging.
And when you come back home, all the spaces in front of your house are taken by your neighbors. So you put down your ratty lawn chair before leaving. Fistfights ensue.
'Right to Charge' (Score:3)
But putting in a Level 2 charger isn't chump change. I would seriously doubt anyone renting is planning on ponying up that much expense...in a rental.
If it meant the 'gov' had to come do it, that's one thing. And it would increase the value for the landlord. Win/win really.
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Charger installation is around $1000 in the UK, including the cost of the charger itself. You save more than that in the first year of use, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue for tenants.
But really the better option is to have landlords do it, because when the tenant leaves they can't take the installation with them.
easy peasy japanesey (Score:3, Funny)
what you do is, you buy an electric generator, diesel or petrol, put it in your trunc and connect it to your charger port. Done.
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what you do is, you buy an electric generator, diesel or petrol, put it in your trunc and connect it to your charger port. Done.
Oh my gosh, how hilarious would that be? That would be the best environmental climate agenda troll ever! All these people with EVs in apartments end up buying diesel fuel generators to charge their EVs. I mean, that's not actually that bad of an idea.
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I figured out the math on this, it doesn't pan out to charge an EV with a gas generator.
To fully charge a Tesla Model S (100 kWh battery) using a diesel generator, you would require approximately 40 gallons of diesel. The total cost for this, given a diesel price of $3.50 per gallon, would be $140.00 USD.
DANG! That's not efficient at all.
Apartments aren't the only limit. (Score:5, Informative)
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You can have an EV charger installed outside. No garage necessary. You just have to get on that is outdoor rated and hard wire it instead of installing a NEMA 14-50 outlet. A 100A panel can usually accommodate a 30A circuit if most of your appliances are gas. I'm having a charger installed in my driveway off my 100A panel in my gas-heated house next Friday. Not everyone will be able to do it of course, but I do think there is a lot of misinformation out there.
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You can have an EV charger installed outside. No garage necessary. You just have to get on that is outdoor rated and hard wire it instead of installing a NEMA 14-50 outlet.
Sure, I don't recall seeing any EVSE that is rated for only indoor use.
A 100A panel can usually accommodate a 30A circuit if most of your appliances are gas.
Maybe. There's a load calculation that has to be done when adding a new circuit, especially to something like an EVSE. If there's too many loads already, especially with heat pumps becoming popular, this could violate electric code.
I'm having a charger installed in my driveway off my 100A panel in my gas-heated house next Friday. Not everyone will be able to do it of course, but I do think there is a lot of misinformation out there.
Check with the utility and/or any code inspector before getting in too deep. That's because there's a lot of misinformation out there.
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A 100A panel can usually accommodate a 30A circuit if most of your appliances are gas.
Maybe. There's a load calculation that has to be done when adding a new circuit, especially to something like an EVSE. If there's too many loads already, especially with heat pumps becoming popular, this could violate electric code.
An L2 charger doesn't have to draw 30 amps; they're configurable. Consumption rate is also configurable from the car. More is faster, of course, but generally you just need enough to recover your daily mileage overnight. Most people drive <80 miles per day (I suspect this number is lower for apartment dwellers). Assuming 250 Wh/mile, 80 miles is 20 kWh. Assuming 12 hours of charging time, you need to charge at 1.66 kW which is a little under 7A.
And note that to get 1.66 kW you don't even need L2! A
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And note that to get 1.66 kW you don't even need L2! An L1 charger (120V, on a standard 15A circuit) can provide that.
That was a major point made in the fine article. Didn't you read it? I did.
And if that isn't quite enough for your daily driving, you can always supplement with occasional stops at an L3 charger for 5-10 minutes. Or if you say home most of the time on weekends, you could likely get 30-40 hours of charging over the weekend, which would easily get you back to 100% to start the next week.
Home charging rate really doesn't have to be that high to be effective, because your car is parked there for many hours.
An option that I wish they mentioned in the fine article is going to a campsite. It allows for recharging one's BEV at a rate slower than most EV chargers but faster than staying at home. If people want out of their apartment for a while, and have the money for a fast charge at an EV charger, then instead of sitting in line at some EV charger go see if there's a campsite nearby.
There's many campsites around the USA that cater to
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Most houses in suburban or rural settings have at least an off-street parking spot. You don't have to be indoors to install a charger. I've seen a number of chargers installed outside at houses that have garages because so many garages are full of stuff instead of being used for parking.
100A service is not a deal breaker. You can still install a charger. When you look at a breaker panel, you should expect the sum of the breakers to exceed the input power. That's normal because nobody expects all circui
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Some houses don't have garages.
Not a problem. Most EVSEs are water-resistant and offer selectable charge rates if your main panel's capacity is limited or if you want to utilize an existing 240v circuit. I've been using a 24A charge rate on a 30A circuit because I didn't feel like running a new wire out to my driveway and instead repurposed my generator inlet for EV charging.
My partner has a 70 mile per day commute and it takes roughly 3 hours and 45 mins for his Bolt EUV to recharge at 24A. About the only accommodation we had to make
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You can charge a EV with 100amp service. Simple setup: I have 100amp service as well and have a 30amp breaker installed, and limit my charging to 24amp (80% rule.
Better setup that became available AFTER I did my setup. Electrical code now allows managed charging. You can install a 50amp breaker now on your 100amp service, and install panel monitoring solution to monitor the load that manages the EV charging state. The easiest system is Emporia. Buy a Emporia Charger ($400 US). Buy a Emporia Vue2 ($60 to $2
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I have 100amp service as well and have a 30amp breaker installed, and limit my charging to 24amp (80% rule).
Was the 30A circuit installed specifically for EV charging, and did the electrician know that was what it was for? If so, you can charge at 30A.
The NEC 80% rule says that circuits with continuous loads (more than three hours at full amperage) must be configured for 125% (1/80%) of the continuous current. This means that on continuous-load circuits, the 80% rule should already be figured into the breaker trip amperage.
For example: assuming NM-B wire, 30 A normally requires 10 AWG copper wire, but that
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I've seen an older home in the area with something like 60 amp service. Maybe it was 120 volt service, as opposed to the usual 240 volt. Either way the house was old and so that limited the house to all gas appliances and a small air conditioner.
Anyway, this 100 amp service will likely keep a 240VAC/30A circuit from being installed for an EVSE and still meet electrical code, but as the fine article points out most people can do just fine with a 120VAC extension cord running to the car for charging every n
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Most UK houses are 100A, but of course at twice the voltage. Still, they need to have "diversity rules" to accommodate things like electric showers, heating, AC, stoves etc.
For EV charging they just have a system that turns the charger off when other items are running.
Extension cords through tree tops? (Score:2)
Wtf?
People raised with padded corners not understanding that preventing fires costs a whole lot less than cleaning up after them. Especially in/near wood framed apartment buildings? Sure explains a lot.
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Or (Score:2)
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No, Google is not a great resource.
If I'm going to search for something then I want at least one link to something as an example of what I am looking for first. I searched for some great news on hydrogen as a fuel before and I found plenty of items showing how hydrogen as a fuel is a really bad idea. Assume I did do a search just seconds ago and I could not find anything good from MIT on hydrogen fuel, how would you respond? My guess is do your own search, using search terms you didn't specify in your or
Re: Or (Score:2)
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I agree, you are not my research assistant. What you are is someone that made a claim that hydrogen is some great alternative as zero-carbon alternative to fossil fuels, and you cited no source on this but instead gave some vague statement that there's supporting documents to find.
I'm not a wild goose chaser. I'm not going to look for something that I suspect does not exist. Given what I read elsewhere hydrogen is a horrible fuel for replacing hydrocarbons. It's not that we have any real trouble produci
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cord (Score:3)
If municipalities are going to allow a power cord thrown over the fence, why not allow a householder to sell their electricity supply to whomever is parked outside their home?
A house that faces the street might be able to charge 3 or more kerb-parked vehicles overnight. All they need is a simple way to meter the electricity they sell.
It won't be easier everywhere in California (Score:2)
"...it's just going to get easier and easier."
In California, the State government has a policy of eliminating local control over zoning requirements for new construction. Parking is one of those. New projects in urban areas within a half-mile of "transit" (loosely defined) are not allowed to require parking at all (AB 2097), and parking reductions are being forced in a number of other areas. Since most people still need to drive, parking is moving onto the streets. As a consequence, for residents of many ne
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I may have seen some places like this when I last visited California. People gave up on parking on the street and started driving up the curb to park on what little piece of front yard they had. I once looked up how big a parking spot must be in a parking lot, 10 feet by 20 feet. That's for having the space for parking someone's Ford F-250 with dual rear wheels, if you drive some "smart car" then it can take half that space to park. People would pave over what little piece of green grass they had for a
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Do you have proof of this? Not forcing developers to build parking is not the same as forced parking reductions.
In Tokyo, they solved the problem of not enough residential parking by requiring anyone who wants to register a car to prove that they have a
Charge the car at work (Score:2)
Since most people probably use their car to go to work, it seems logical for "workplaces" to install chargers in their parking lot.
That only works for corporations with a private parking lot of course.
Still, it seems better than running an electric cable through a tree or over the sidewalk.
Charging in the parking while shopping seems a good option too.
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As a bonus, if solar really takes off, charging during the day when solar power is plentiful would be a good way to optimize loads.
For that matter, for much of the country: Solar car ports. In the summer down south, it also helps keep your car cool, and reduces wear. In the north, during winter, it's areas you don't have to plow, or end up having to brush off and scrape your car regularly.
Note: There are ways to deal with snow buildup.
Re: Charge the car at work (Score:2)
Why are people smart enough to buy an EV so dumb that they still drive to work each day?
What happens when workers want to change jobs, but new employer doesn't feel the need to fill their parking lot with multi-thousand dollar chargers for their employees EVs?
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Smarts or lack thereof has nothing to do with it. The pandemic is over, so it's back to the grind. Most employers don't care if you have to get a ICE, BEV, or a Flintstone's car and propel it with your feet - you're going back to the office. It's your problem to solve or they'll give your job to someone else who does have a set of wheels.
There are many sides to these stories. (Score:2)
The technology (especially the battery tech) is relatively new still, and is being rapidly developed.
We're in need of the fossils for other things like plastic production, we are running out of it at some point. Sun's energy is endless, fossiles are not.
Yes, EV's have a long way to go to catch up with the good ol faithful ICE car, it hasn't had 100 years behind it, and it's still gonna take some time to perfect it, but it's def. the future like ALL your electrical appliances have been for you the last 50+ y
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Yes, Republicans implement bad policies because they are fearful of change, and because social warfare is the only politics left for them. Doesn't mean there's "two sides to that electrification story", it just means you get punished if you're the out group.
Re: There are many sides to these stories. (Score:2)
Please take a step back and explain how you got to Republican bashing when talking about EV Taxes in foreign nations?
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it hasn't had 100 years behind it
It'd be pretty silly to imagine that battery technology has stood still over the last century as there are plenty of uses for batteries besides being incorporated into EVs. As for the cars themselves, EVs were the original easy to operate "grocery getters" over a century ago. Catch was, you had to be relatively well off to afford one. Jay Leno had a video about his Baker Electric car that provides a glimpse of where technology could've gone sooner, had the economics behind ICE not been significantly more
Start at the beginning: Efficiency! (Score:3)
The goal should not ONLY be to provide more charging options to renters, but instead to FIRST minimize the need for charging in the first place. What if an EV could be made so efficient that it could charge from Level 2 (240 VAC charging) as fast as most current vehicles charge from DCFC (DC Fast Charging)?
Let's step back a bit. When efficient ICE vehicles started flooding the market in the 1970s, we called the previous vehicles "gas hogs". We need a similar flood in the EV market to make it clear that the vast majority of today's EVs are "watt hogs".
Current technology lets the weight of an affordable EV be cut in half, which, along with drag optimizations, means the battery size can be cut roughly in half WITHOUT reducing vehicle performance. Where are the vehicles making use of this technology? Well, until now, they've mainly been in luxury cars, hypercars and Formula One cars. The BMW i3 made some great steps in this direction, but failed in some of the other areas needed for a successful vehicle.
I'm aware of only ONE vehicle company that has been laser-focused on efficiency in every step of their design and manufacturing processes. Manufacturing? Yes: If your super-tech vehicle can't be built at huge scales, then it can't directly affect the market.
As for the design, it all starts with the shape. At highway speeds, the majority of a vehicle's energy goes into moving air out of the way. If you can reduce that energy, you win. Today's designs are making incremental progress on that goal, but they ALL continue to tweak the same basic shapes used by decades of ICE vehicles, rather than try something truly different and vastly more efficient.
It's also important to target this efficiency at the market segments needing it most. Today, that would be those who commute to work, the vast majority of whom drive solo, run errands during lunch or on the way home, and on average commute just 40 miles per day. What would it mean to HALVE the energy use of all daily commutes everywhere?
First, it would mean optimizing the vehicle for 2 occupants, mainly to keep minimize both the payload weight and the interior volume. Not a family vehicle, but a commuting vehicle, preferably with enough cargo space for Costco runs, and perhaps to fit a bicycle inside. Why inside? Putting ANYTHING on the outside of a vehicle (ICE or EV) greatly increases drag (especially at highway speeds), which would be a double no-no for a high-efficiency EV. Two people with decent cargo space is a good target to aim for. Which means it would be the second vehicle for a family, but could be the only vehicle for pretty much everyone else.
Fortunately, there is an extremely efficient vehicle shape that achieves the goals of optimal aerodynamics for two occupants with room for cargo. It's called the "Morelli Shape", created by Antonio Morelli and his students in the 1970s. This shape is not only extremely aerodynamic, but it is also inherently strong, meaning it doesn't need to be made out of metal to get the needed strength performance, but can instead be made from composites that can be affordably produced in large quantities. Think along the lines of the Tesla Gigapress, but for composites, and you'll get an idea of what can be accomplished.
OK, let's see what we have so far. We have 2 occupants with cargo space. We have a sleek composite body. Next comes the chassis and drivetrain. Being a small and light vehicle, an aluminum chassis can easily provide plenty of strength to carry everything while needing less material than an otherwise equivalent steel vehicle. On a chassis cost basis, it'll be roughly the same strength and cost as a steel chassis, but be significantly lighter and easier to make.
Next comes the drivetrain. Let's assume no new technology. Conventional NMC lithium batteries will be used with silicon carbide (SiC) inverters and permanent magnet motors (PMMs). Nothing new or flashy there. But to maximize usable interior volume, let's move the motors into the wheels. Yes, it will increase th
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"Current technology lets the weight of an affordable EV be cut in half, which, along with drag optimizations, means the battery size can be cut roughly in half WITHOUT reducing vehicle performance."
This is complete bullshit based on nothing.
"Where are the vehicles making use of this technology?"
Wherever you say, because it's imaginary.
"Today's designs are making incremental progress on that goal, but they ALL continue to tweak the same basic shapes used by decades of ICE vehicles, rather than try something
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In 2025 over a dozen battery factories will go into production in the USA.
How many mines opened up in the USA to produce the raw materials these factories will require? I specify that they be in the USA because current events look like we may have a disruption of imports soon. One possible disruption is competition for resources from factories opening up in other nations. Another possible disruption is the Suez canal being blocked by terrorists in the region, the Panama Canal blocked because of drought, and just a general mess of international trade from things around the worl
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Modern EV drivetrains are already incredibly efficient. What isn't efficient is pushing air molecules out of your way at highway speeds.
10% Houston Apartments for Rent Have EV Charging (Score:2)
Use the existing infra (Score:2)
Re: Use the existing infra (Score:2)
They're 70 watt lights... it's doubtful they have several KW spare capacity per lamp post to charge an EV in a reasonable timeframe.
Or you can just drive an ICE or hybrid (Score:2)
EV's are great if you have a consistent place to park with electric service for charging. Otherwise it's a pain.
Avoid the pain, just drive an ICE or a hybrid.
Some math on BEV charging. And the PHEV option. (Score:2)
To start we'd need to set some assumptions. Assume a fairly typical BEV, with average to low-end range to give some room for doubters, I'll pick the Chevy Bolt with an advertised range of 240 miles for this. Assume a typical weekday commute from the fine article of 30 to 40 miles.
If someone has their Bolt start on Monday morning with a full charge then that over 5 days of driving 30 miles each day that means 150 miles off the battery by Friday evening. That gives them the weekend to find a place to recha
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"So long as the PHEV has something like 50 miles all electric range per charge then having access to a 120VAC charger at one's apartment means all electric driving excepting some event that prevents plugging in each night, which should be rare for most drivers."
But having access to charging every night means a BEV is every bit as a good a solution, plus it doesn't have a tank of gas that sits unused and goes bad nor does it have an engine that requires regular maintenance. And the PHEV in this arrangement
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But having access to charging every night means a BEV is every bit as a good a solution...
Yep, absolutely, no argument from me. Knock yourself out. Whatever floats your boat.
A PHEV is absolutely the wrong solution if you do not have access to nightly charging. A PHEV REQUIRES daily charging to exploit its capabilities, unlike an ICE, hybrid or BEV. Worst of all worlds, from an efficiency standpoint.
That's, like, your opinion, man.
If you don't like the PHEV option then that's fine. I laid out why many expect BEV prices to climb as adoption of BEVs and PHEVs increase, this will increase demand for limited resources and prices will rise as a result. The assumption is that people will have nightly access to charging, that's because they rent the property and have some kind of assurance of being able to plug in. If the
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It seems you miss the point. If getting pushed back in your seat from acceleration is what pleases you then consider a vehicle with the energy density of high octane gasoline and the maximum torque at zero speed from an electric motor. That is what a PHEV offers. If you want the "vroom vroom" of the engine to get your blood pumping then maybe record some and play that on the stereo as you drive.
I haven't seen a sporty PHEV on the market yet but I suspect they will come soon. Car owners are still having
Wasn't this solved... (Score:2)
Wasn't this solved when the administration committed to "investing" [whitehouse.gov] in countless new public chargers - never mind that the spending announcements outnumber actual installed public chargers by 100 to 1.
Even with a house, EV is a luxury second car (Score:2)
I drive to other people's houses or AirBNBs quite often. What are the odds all of them will have chargers? If not, I have to sit in some random place late at night for an hour, provided there is a free spot with a working charger. I don't hate the planet, but my family's safety is a more immediate concern. Modular battery swapping is the way to go I would think.
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I drive to other people's houses or AirBNBs quite often. What are the odds all of them will have chargers?
I'd say the chances are near 100% for some definition of "charger".
Perhaps I recall incorrectly but I recall that the National Electrical Code requires an outdoor outlet on the front and rear of every house. That means if you can drive up to close enough to the house that it is safe and practical to run an electrical cord from the house to the parking space for your vehicle then you should be able to get 1400 watts or so of charging power to your EV. If your EV didn't come with a portable 120VAC/15A charg
Common parking (Score:2)
Cords over the sidewalk is a novel solution? (Score:2)
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Give it a rest. Your "everyone should walk everywhere because I do" argument is as stupid as the dogma of the 1-hour commuter, and adding to that your pretending there's equivalent pollution levels between the two vehicle types amounts to a bad faith argument for everyone keep using the worse type.
Re: going car free also works (Score:2)
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Going car free can work depending on where you live. I grew up in the western suburbs of Paris. I didn't learn to drive until I was 25. I was living with my parents about 10 km from the Paris city limit. Paris is a decently provisioned city in term of public transportation. Yet, most families had 1 or 2 cars.
While I agree that there is a need to reduce car dependencies, especially in the US (where I now live), it is unlikely we can get rid of cars for much more than half the adult population until we massiv
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You must be a Seattle politician. "Right to charge" runs into the cities "no right to own/park a vehicle". And on street parking is rapidly running into "we need that curb lane for our bikey-wikeys".
You vill eat ze bugs.
You vill ride ze bus.
You vill live in ze pod.
You vill own nossin,
und you vill be happy.
Re: going car free also works (Score:3)
Right, fix all the zoning laws so we can do dense development, then build all those housing units to that would allow us to affordably live in dense areas that are worked and served by great public transit, and you will have some kind of a point. Until then, America is built around car travel and that is not something that will change quickly.
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Isn't that like saying people are addicted to cigarettes and so we should give them alternatives before raising the cigarette tax? Why not do both at the same time?
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Isn't that like saying people are addicted to cigarettes and so we should give them alternatives before raising the cigarette tax? Why not do both at the same time?
Maybe because such taxes hurt the poor disproportionately. People with some extra money in the bank don't much care about the taxes, they will pay the tax or immediately buy whatever it is the tax is encouraging people buy. People without that extra money could have an unexpected new expense without being warned to plan on saving up first. That can put them in a spiral of paying the taxes than saving up for whatever it is the taxes are supposed to encourage.
Maybe a better example is putting a tax on over
Re:Roads Should be Private (Score:2)
Actually, "A gas tax would be regressive only across upper-income groups, in this case only in the top half of the income distribution." [thinkprogress.org]
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If the urban environment was so wo
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/r/fuckcars has been leaking on to Slashdot lately. You're not going to convince us suburban dwellers to give up our space, privacy, and our cars. And perhaps you'd probably feel similarly if you were living in an apartment with paper thin walls and had to listen to your neighbor blasting Lady Gaga at 2AM, because they work 2nd shift.
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"The need to own a house is something that is only relevant in a country which doesn't give a **** about building out suitable charging infrastructure for people."
Which is almost all countries in the world. It is also relevant for countries that care to but have not yet.
"There are 4 charging spots within 100m of my house, one of them is only 20m away. Many people in my suburb own EVs, no one has the ability to charge at home."
That may be the experience where you live, it is not the experience where very ma
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Which is almost all countries in the world.
Actually no it's not. The majority of countries in the world have no EV program in place at all, not a disparity between EV and infrastructure. That is more limited to only a handful, the USA being one of them.
That may be the experience where you live, it is not the experience where very many people live.
Of course not, I'm not talking here about a non-existent problem, I'm talking here about a known and simple solution with demonstrated success to the question posed in TFS. I'm not here to say the problem doesn't exist, I'm here to help you learn what you should take with you next time you lobby your
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There are 4 charging spots within 100m of my house, one of them is only 20m away. Many people in my suburb own EVs, no one has the ability to charge at home.
How do you coordinate them amongst yourselves (serious question). Obviously you can't stay parked at a charger others may need, so how do you know when you are next in line, and when you need to make way for others? Does this ever happen at inconvenient hours, or are the chargers always empty at night?
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"How do you coordinate them amongst yourselves (serious question)."
Poorly. It's "try again later".
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How do you coordinate them amongst yourselves (serious question).
It's a problem that doesn't exist providing the amount of infrastructure exceeds continued use. I've never seen all of the chargers in use, and that is the goal of our local government's policy.
Often the chargers aren't empty at night, but the thing is ... most people don't need to charge every day. My colleague has an EV and I posed this exact question to him, his answer was: "well if I can't charge tonight I'll do it tomorrow" not too different to how I haven't put gas in my tank for the past 2 weeks.
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Here in the US, fast charging is still priced like food at an airport. If you can't charge at home, not only are you giving up one of the main advantages of owning an EV (starting every day with a full "tank"), but your cost per mile can easily approach that of an ICE economy car.
Somebody earlier in the discussion already nailed it: apartments and other such rental housing will need to install charging infrastructure for its residents. Anything less isn't going to go over well.