White House Unveils $623 Million In Funding To Boost EV Charging Points (theguardian.com) 101
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: Joe Biden's administration has unveiled $623 million in funding to boost the number of electric vehicle charging points in the U.S., amid concerns that the transition to zero-carbon transportation isn't keeping pace with goals to tackle the climate crisis. The funding will be distributed in grants for dozens of programs across 22 states, such as EV chargers for apartment blocks in New Jersey, rapid chargers in Oregon and hydrogen fuel chargers for freight trucks in Texas. In all, it's expected the money, drawn from the bipartisan infrastructure law, will add 7,500 chargers to the US total.
There are about 170,000 electric vehicle chargers in the U.S., a huge leap from a network that was barely visible prior to Biden taking office, and the White House has set a goal for 500,000 chargers to help support the shift away from gasoline and diesel cars. "The U.S. is taking the lead globally on electric vehicles," said Ali Zaidi, a climate adviser to Biden who said the US is on a trajectory to "meet and exceed" the administration's charger goal. "We will continue to see this buildout over the coming years and decades until we've achieved a fully net zero transportation sector," he added. On Thursday, the House approved legislation to undo a Biden administration rule meant to facilitate the proliferation of EV charging stations. "S. J. Res. 38 from Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), would scrap a Federal Highway Administration waiver from domestic sourcing requirements for EV chargers funded by the 2021 bipartisan infrastructure law. It already passed the Senate 50-48," reports Politico.
"A waiver undercuts domestic investments and risks empowering foreign nations," said Rep. Sam Graves (R-Mo.), chair of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, during House debate Thursday. "If the administration is going to continue to push for a massive transition to EVs, it should ensure and comply with Buy America requirements." The White House promised to veto it and said it would backfire, saying it was so poorly worded it would actually result in fewer new American-made charging stations.
There are about 170,000 electric vehicle chargers in the U.S., a huge leap from a network that was barely visible prior to Biden taking office, and the White House has set a goal for 500,000 chargers to help support the shift away from gasoline and diesel cars. "The U.S. is taking the lead globally on electric vehicles," said Ali Zaidi, a climate adviser to Biden who said the US is on a trajectory to "meet and exceed" the administration's charger goal. "We will continue to see this buildout over the coming years and decades until we've achieved a fully net zero transportation sector," he added. On Thursday, the House approved legislation to undo a Biden administration rule meant to facilitate the proliferation of EV charging stations. "S. J. Res. 38 from Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), would scrap a Federal Highway Administration waiver from domestic sourcing requirements for EV chargers funded by the 2021 bipartisan infrastructure law. It already passed the Senate 50-48," reports Politico.
"A waiver undercuts domestic investments and risks empowering foreign nations," said Rep. Sam Graves (R-Mo.), chair of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, during House debate Thursday. "If the administration is going to continue to push for a massive transition to EVs, it should ensure and comply with Buy America requirements." The White House promised to veto it and said it would backfire, saying it was so poorly worded it would actually result in fewer new American-made charging stations.
How many were built? (Score:5, Interesting)
Money was allocated in 2021 but there are currently 0 charging stations that have gone into service under that plan. https://www.politico.com/news/... [politico.com]
Meanwhile Tesla built 400 in Q4 of 2022 alone. https://insideevs.com/news/633... [insideevs.com]
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It's not for lack of trying. It takes 12-18 months for a company's application for funds to be reviewed and/or approved, and in order to apply, the applicant must demonstrate a commitment to Environmental and Social Governance and other political metrics that currently no corporation can really meet.
For example, in order to obtain funding under that plan, an applicant has to commit to a demographic study that proves that they build at least 50% of new charging capacity in "underserved or economically vulner
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sounds like your company was not a good fit
why would we think economically advantaged areas don't need subsidy support? maybe something in the name is a clue...
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Maybe we have a chicken vs. egg problem, people with money aren't buying EVs because there's no chargers, and there's no chargers because even the "economically advantaged" aren't buying EVs.
If the Biden White House wants to see this cycle broken then they might need to start in "economically advantaged" areas with the chargers so people with some extra money to spend buy EVs and therefore spend money on charging to support these charging stations. If there's no profits in putting up EV chargers then nobod
Re: How many were built? (Score:2)
It's not for lack of trying. It takes 12-18 months for a company's application for funds to be reviewed and/or approved,
Why?
and in order to apply, the applicant must demonstrate a commitment to Environmental and Social Governance and other political metrics that currently no corporation can really meet.
Oh.
They want to make sure the people putting in public EV charging stations share their political/social views... Awesome.
I guess EV Charging stations are THE new "broadband Internet subsidy to bridge the digital divide" - remember how, for the last 5-10 years politicians were constantly tacking money for broadband deployments or subscriber subsidies on any bill they passed? I guess this is going to be the subject of future lip service for the next few years...
PS - 2021 is almost 3 years ago, kind of am
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I've seen the math on how much range can be added to a BEV overnight with a common 120VAC 15A outlet, and it's more than enough for most people to commute. Some people might run a small deficit over the week but they can almost certainly make that up on the weekend, either at home by not going far or with a trip to a public fast charger. This would be much like the habits of those that drive a hydrocarbon burner that make a weekend trip to the filling station on their way to or from getting groceries, att
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and it's more than enough for most people
There is your problem right there. I am not "most people", I am "me". I don't care at all what works for most people, I care about what works for me. This whole green scam that's going on is premature, the tech is not ready. A EV has to be as fast and convent to use as an ICE vehicle for everyone before it's mandated for everyone. If the Gov. has to force it down peoples throat, wasting their tax dollars, it will never work. People will just put their backs in a corner and fight. Give it another 50
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There is your problem right there. I am not "most people", I am "me". I don't care at all what works for most people, I care about what works for me.
I am in complete agreement. I don't want to come off as some EV fanboy, I just want some realistic expectations on what people can get from an EB and what it takes to own and operate one.
If you believe an EV won't work for you then don't get one. The thing that bothers me is that there's more than one kind of EV but it looks like all the EV advocates are pretending like there's only one kind, the battery-electric vehicle. There's also the plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, and if the operator never charges
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Re:How many were built? (Score:4, Interesting)
Money was allocated in 2021 but there are currently 0 charging stations that have gone into service under that plan. https://www.politico.com/news/... [politico.com] Meanwhile Tesla built 400 in Q4 of 2022 alone. https://insideevs.com/news/633... [insideevs.com]
I'm not sure if you're trolling or not - but I have witnessed with my own eyes at least 5 new public DCFC chargers near my that were not built by Tesla within the past 2 years. Can I say that the money to build them came from that plan? No, because there's not sign that says "these chargers were built using money from bill #xyz". Note to politicians, forget about putting your name on the public park, or bridge or water fountain, put your name on the chargers - I'd be sure to vote for you down the line!
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You guys are still in the early stages. Around here they install 20+ chargers at a time, and many sites have a choice of providers.
Re:How many were built? (Score:5, Interesting)
This $623M is the first of that 2021 infrastructure funding to actually go out the door. The delay has largely been about rule-making and federal-vs-state wrangling. Among [energy.gov] the rules [federalregister.gov] that needed to be developed were things like placement (e.g., stations located at most 50 miles apart along major thoroughfares), payment methods (must accept credit cards, no app-only systems), quality of service metrics (i.e., >X% uptime, timely maintenance and repair), non-proprietary equipment and interoperability (part of why Tesla has opened things up), information sharing (like uptime), Made-in-America standards. And on and on. The announcement and summary of the final rules [govinfo.gov] alone runs 34 pages single-spaced. That was actually completed a year ago.
The Feds are providing the money, but individual states need to be the ones actually implementing it - similar to how the federal highway system works presently. But not all states have gotten their act together to develop Fed-compliant programs. This is why the announcement only includes 22 states, rather than 50 (plus territories and DC).
Not that a 2-3 year delay for all that is warranted. It really, really shouldn't take that long. But neither is it fair to say a nationwide rollout was ever "shovel ready".
Consider the alternative: the Feds start send money out without first standing up a program. In late 2023 the Politico headline probably would have then read "Federal government spends $X billion on EV chargers, half of them are broken, and the other half don't work with most EVs."
The benefits of vertical integration: control the cars, control the charger design to a single platform, and getting to choose exactly where you want to put them. And seemingly endless capital from Wall St. Tesla has been building out its network for a decade already. How long did it take them to get it started in the first place? I applaud Tesla's efforts: they clearly saw the need and executed a bold and expensive plan. It's working well. Most EV owners will appreciate it, too, when they get to start using the Tesla network over the next few years. Don't forget that Tesla will also be receiving some of that sweet federal money.
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Hang on a second...
You expect someone that shitposts anti-government twaddle bad-faith false equivalency arguments to suddenly reverse their position by stating easily observable and documented facts?
Have you not been paying attention to the state of play in US politics? None of that matters to some people, because it has Biden's signature on it. Therefore it must be a communist plot, or some woke conspiracy-cahoots to destroy America or "weaponize" government.
I'm honestly waiting for someone to make an a
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10% to the big guy...
Chris Christie?
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Hur hur hur.
Meanwhile, this is what proof of actual corruption of a White House occupant looks like. [house.gov]
Care to speak to any of that?
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Care to speak to any of that?
I'm not the OP but I'll comment.
Just looking at the title, and the date, tells me this is not likely to be some comprehensive report on the corruption of the Trump White House. It's a political piece, not some unbiased investigation. Trump isn't POTUS, but if Democrats keep propping him up as some kind of martyr for the cause then that's just setting him up for running and winning the next election for POTUS.
I'm trying to stay out of the politics of the next election until some of the silliness of the ear
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It's a report from Congress about the President taking money from foreign governments in opposition to the emoluments clause of the Constitution. It came from Congress, which is a political entity, so there's going to be politics mixed in. That doesn't mean that the facts or findings are automatically false.
Read the report. There's actual evidence, collected under legal subpoena, which they had to fight tooth and nail to get.
And you are correct, it's not a complete accounting because Trump's lackeys that
The greater evil. (Re:How many were built?) (Score:2)
That doesn't mean that the facts or findings are automatically false.
I agree, but with the political slant inherent to such a report it is difficult to see who is the greater evil in this. The Democrats may have exposed corruption in the Trump White House but it is quite clear from the news that the Biden White House isn't exactly squeaky clean.
This report only covers the first two years of Trump's presidency - do you really think he stopped taking foreign money in his second two years?
Well, there's different kinds of "foreign money", would you not agree? If Trump is taking money from people in Australia and UK over some nuclear submarine deal, and Biden is taking money from China over some nuclear submarine deal,
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Yes and if the government handed the money to anyone who showed up you'd also be complaining.
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Or they needed to build a process for how to select projects to receive the funding. Because if they didn't set out rules, solicit bids, and then publicly announce the winners and reasoning why those bids were chosen the ignorant asshats that don't understand how new government programs start would be griping that it's corporate welfare, cronyism, handouts to politically connected, insufficient oversight, central-planning communism, start screaming "Solyndra!!!!" at the top of your lungs for some reason, e
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Yes, money was allocated to a program in 2021. Unfortunately, none of the rules or regulations for how to implement that program existed in 2021.
Now they do. And they solicited bids from organizations that want money to build chargers under the program. And this story is literally about announcing winners of those bids.
This is how government programs work. You don't instantly have an entire bureaucratic process, documented and approved rules, and all the people to run it, as well as private sector parti
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Meanwhile Tesla built 400 in Q4 of 2022 alone.
You seem to live under the delusion that "built" = "commissioned" and that when money is available things magically instantly appear like they were spat out by an OpenAI image generator.
Building a super charger station for Tesla may be quick in terms of building hardware, but it takes months to a full year to secure land, permits, and grid connections. And that's before you consider the year long process it takes to request government funding for such projects which needs to be secured before any of the res
Are there punishments for theft? (Score:4, Interesting)
If corporations take the money and build no chargers, will they actually be punished? Will the CEOs be imprisoned? AT&T took over a billion dollars to expand internet access to all and then just decided not to do it, and there's been zero consequences.
I'm in favor of government spending on utilities, but only if theft of The People's money is actually punished.
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If corporations take the money and build no chargers, will they actually be punished? Will the CEOs be imprisoned? AT&T took over a billion dollars to expand internet access to all and then just decided not to do it, and there's been zero consequences.
I'm in favor of government spending on utilities, but only if theft of The People's money is actually punished.
In a real country, where the government is attempting to provide infrastructure upgrades to the public, there would be consequences for private companies accepting government funding to complete a public good project and instead handing it out to C-suites as bonuses for increasing profit while doing none of the required work. In fact, there's an argument to be made that in a real country, where the government actually cared about the public good at all, they'd find a way to contract out work like this to in
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What? This is America, we don't punish corporations or jail CEOs.
I think that's illegal or something.
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Because it's a federal program, it's highly dependent upon the individual states for a lot of it. For what it's worth, the US Department of Transportation does have a clawback written in, so if a state isn't using the funds, or not complying with schedules and regulations, USDOT can yank that money and reallocate it.
As per if the grant winners that are building the chargers themselves can have the funding yanked if they don't live up to their contract, I would imagine that would be part of the contract wit
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On Thursday, the House approved legislation to undo a Biden administration rule meant to facilitate the proliferation of EV charging stations. "S. J. Res. 38 from Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), would scrap a Federal Highway Administration waiver from domestic sourcing requirements for EV chargers funded by the 2021 bipartisan infrastructure law. It already passed the Senate 50-48," reports Politico. "A waiver undercuts domestic investments and risks empowering foreign nations," said Rep. Sam Graves (R-Mo.), chair of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, during House debate Thursday. "If the administration is going to continue to push for a massive transition to EVs, it should ensure and comply with Buy America requirements." The White House promised to veto it and said it would backfire, saying it was so poorly worded it would actually result in fewer new American-made charging stations.
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“If enacted, S.J. Res. 38 would weaken Buy America requirements by reverting to [the Federal Highway Administration’s] general waiver for manufactured products, allowing federal dollars — including $7.5 billion from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law — to be spent on chargers made in competitor nations like the People’s Republic of China,” the White House said in its veto threat last year.
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“If enacted, S.J. Res. 38 would weaken Buy America requirements by reverting to [the Federal Highway Administration’s] general waiver for manufactured products, allowing federal dollars — including $7.5 billion from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law — to be spent on chargers made in competitor nations like the People’s Republic of China,” the White House said in its veto threat last year.
Odd. By my reading, it says the opposite of that. The resolution says that it nullifies the highway department's waiver, which allows steel and other materials to be purchased from overseas. If the resolution passes, you'd still be able to buy the guts of the charger from China, but any casing, posts, or other similar materials would have to be at least 55% from the United States.
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This is part of the funding in the infrastructure bill. This is the first tranche of approved projects under that program.
we're going electric, like it or not (Score:2, Troll)
might as well make it easier rather than harder.
ignore the red states, they have no idea what they're really doing (its all just spite).
its about time we put national money into a needed modern infrastructure. gas is not the future and everyone knows it. fight it or join the modern age. I'd rather join than fight.
Re:we're going electric, like it or not (Score:4)
This is silly argument.
Gas might not be the future but we have a completely adequate supply of domestic oil production for motor fuel and the ability to refine process and distribute.
There is absolutely NO REASON AT ALL to subsidize charging stations built with tech from largely from Chinese suppliers. We should do this with American technology or not at all.
In fact NOT doing probably hurts China which is betting heavily on battery tech and EV parts manufacture supporting its industry. We have TESLA, GM and Ford know how to make EVs; they can make them sell them abroad. There is really no risk in the USA lagging in EV uptake. Its not like anyone is going to 'do' anything in that industry we can't copy at this point, not being a market for foreigners to dump cheap EV parts in while we continue to run ICE stuff isn't a bad thing.
The market was rapidly and is still now slowly marching toward the EV. We don't need to subsidize it at all (and I would personally argue we ought not). If we are going to we should do it though without waivers for suppliers. Put the money out on the table, a tell domestic industry to come get it when they are ready. If it ends up just sitting there for some years so what?
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That's so laughably wrong and factually incorrect that I hardly know where to begin.
First fact: the US pumps over 13 million barrels [eia.gov] of crude per day. That's more, actually, than at any time in US history, and under President Biden no less.
Second fact: the US consumes about 20 million barrels [eia.gov] per day.
So do the math and then explain where
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Fact #4 - Not all 20 million barrels is used for fuel, moreover not for motor fuel
Fact #5 - International markets moving to EVs should mean more and cheaper oil available for other things
Fact #6 - The the EIA you like to cite, says we are net importer.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexpl... [eia.gov]
Economics pretty much dictate that yes as the rest of the world electrifies, the dino-juice certainly can would go into your fat-ass SUV, because putting more oil in the market place as one of the biggest demand sources deterio
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The oil running out will actually do what climate change enthusiasts want, and it's the only thing that will work, so i'm a fan of that approach.
Energy == national power. That is the equation that will assure every gram and drop of fossilized hydrocarbon will be burned.
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Then finally: even if you don't give a shit about climate change, do you think that oil production can stay this high forever? Sooner or later, and probably sooner than you think, the transportation sector will need to replace dinosaur juice with something else.
I believe it is far more likely for petroleum fuels to be replaced by synthesized hydrocarbons than electric vehicles.
As pointed out the market for petroleum products is global, people don't much care where it comes from so long as it meet some minimum standards on quality and comes cheap. This means someone, somewhere, that can apply 100 year old hydrocarbon synthesis technology can get in this market by meeting that low bar on quality and price. China demonstrated their hydrocarbon fuel synthesis capabi
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Please find anywhere on the internet where I can buy a high voltage DC charger that complies with the Buy American provisions in this law.
Maybe now you will understand why having that provision in there is preventing anything from being done. Which is why Swamp Creature Rubio is trying to poison pill it.
Re:we're going electric, like it or not (Score:4, Insightful)
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In spite of their rhetoric about green energy, it's true that renewables have been getting deployed in "red" states because ultimately money talks, especially in "red" states.
That doesn't mean the rhetoric will ever align with easily observable reality, especially in "red" states in the current political climate.
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ignore the red states, they have no idea what they're really doing (its all just spite)
Um, isn't that SPITE also? And what's wrong with fighting FOR the modern age?
No wonder the rest of the world thinks 'murica has a hard-on for its RGB politics.
I have an idea! (Score:2)
Step 2: hook EV charging points up to them
You're just burning the CO2-producing sources down the street so dumb rich people can pretend they're doing something good for the environment while they drive a 4000 pounds lithium tank down the street with fake "self driving" and enough computers to guarantee it fails after about 3 years. They need to start at the beginning and fix this because the reputation of electrics cars is starting to get around to everyone in society
Re:I have an idea! (Score:5, Informative)
You're just burning the CO2-producing sources down the street so dumb rich people can pretend they're doing something good for the environment
An EV charged purely with coal power is still ~15% less polluting cradle to grave, and breaks even around 70k miles. That's not going to save the planet, but "you're just shifting the pollution out of the cities while reducing it" is not the mic drop you imagined it to be when you wrote your comment.
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Frankly that is pure theoretical bullshit.
You know it's kind of amazing to me that when you measure things and do the math then go into the real world and test them out you find out that yeah, mathematics works. It's actually the basis of our entire modern existence, and still somehow magical at the same time.
What is equally magical is that the same people who derive all the benefits from it can think it applies in some situations and not others.
We know how much energy it takes to make all this stuff. It takes enough electricity to refine a gallon
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1. I have an EV, which I predominantly charge at home.
2. I have solar panels on my roof. In addition, I know the mix of energy generation in my state - 70% of energy production comes from renewables. The other 30% is natural gas, which is far more clean that burning petroleum distillates.
3. My EV is now 5 years old, and still working perfectly. No reason it won't go for another 5 years at least.
Not a single thing you said is true.
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Everything you said about the energy sourcing is mooted by this: the majority of my state's power mix comes from hydroelectric, wind, and nuclear. Do those work at night?
The point about the age of my car was a direct refutation of the GP post where they claimed "enough computers to guarantee it fails after about 3 years" which is an absurd and patently ridiculous claim to make.
Try reading.
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You're just burning the CO2-producing sources down the street
Your anti-EV point was debunked back in the early 2010s. You're reading an outdated script, go ask your supervisor what today's anti-EV talking points are before posting again. Jeesh I remember days where troll farms employed people who could at least use the correct script, your post is just embarrassing.
Worst subsidy yet (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: Worst subsidy yet (Score:2)
So the govt locates and funds construction of "public" charging stations, then leases them to private companies - isn't that the model used for rest stops on toll roads (turnpikes)? Thats why gas/food/snacks are so expensive in rest stops, right?
I don't know that I want gov't responsible for the EV charging network - it will turn into a way to reward political allies...
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So, look at the Florida turnpike. They have rest areas like I’m talking every 75-100 miles. Multiple restaurants and different gas stations at each.
Now, if we take th
Re: Does this address security? (Score:2)
The lack of security in public is not the issue holding back EV adoption. The issue is the cost of acquisition, maint, and availability (existence) of public/private chargers are the issues that are giving people pause to buy an EV.
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So we should continue burning billions of gallons of oil because of ... crimes against persons?
How about we just arrest and prosecute criminals and leave that completely out of the discussion of how we fuel transportation?
What a pathetic, weak, grasping-at-straws argument.
Also: nobody has ever been mugged or carjacked at a fuel pump, right?
Clown.
Funding? (Score:2)
So, about 300 fast charging spots (Score:2)
Because those huge fast chargers are expensive so it might sound like much, but once you calculate in property lease/purchases/rights, digging long ditches for thick cables, asphalt and the really expensive big service chargers - yes, this is chump change.
Re: So, about 300 fast charging spots (Score:2)
The chargers are either going on public land, or being installed at existing facilities (truck stops, gas stations, highway/turnpike rest stops, public gov't buildings, shopping centers, etc), they aren't out shopping for real estate to build new charging stations...
Re: So, about 300 fast charging spots (Score:2)
I can get an electrician to install an EV charger in my garage almost on demand, that government paperwork is blocking the roll out of a government program IS the issue.
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I can get an electrician to install an EV charger in my garage almost on demand, that government paperwork is blocking the roll out of a government program IS the issue.
There is a massive difference between installing a single 10-20kW, 240V AC charger (which is basically just a standard 240V residential appliance circuit) and a bank of 350kW, 800V DC chargers. It's an entirely different class of electrical hazard and skills required. The tradespeople who are both qualified to perform such an install and are familiar with DC EVSE are much thinner on the ground. Additionally, it's going to require coordination with the utility to do capacity planning and run new circuits.
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I've been involved in getting EV chargers installed at my workplace. There's a lot more that goes into something like that (publicly accessible chargers at a commercial property) compared to at-home residential. An at-home Level 2 charger may cost $500-$1000 for the equipment, and another $500-$2000 to wire it up. The (Level 2) equipmen
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I can get an electrician to install an EV charger in my garage almost on demand,
No, you can't.
You can get an electrician to install an EVSE in your garage. What you call a "charger" is little more than a 240V outlet.
A charger outputs DC.
Buy American? Biden admin says "No"? (Score:3)
On Thursday, the House approved legislation to undo a Biden administration rule meant to facilitate the proliferation of EV charging stations. "S. J. Res. 38 from Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), would scrap a Federal Highway Administration waiver from domestic sourcing requirements for EV chargers funded by the 2021 bipartisan infrastructure law. It already passed the Senate 50-48," reports Politico.
Why would the government insist that they be able to buy charging infrastructure from foreign nations? The Billions earmarked to build-out our EV charger infrastructure will likely go to develop the charger manufacturing infrastructure overseas if the Biden admin has its way (they have vowed to veto the repeal of a Buy American waiver they included in the 2021 infrastructure spending bill).
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As a for instance: one commenter on the overall program rules [govinfo.gov] (page 12737, bottom left) pointed out that there aren't any domestic producers of 350-kW charging equipment that could comply with Buy American requirements. That won't be true forever, but the waiver all
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Why would the government insist that they be able to buy charging infrastructure from foreign nations?
This is what happens when the USA ignores an industry and trend for long enough. They were warned over a decade ago that this would happen. And here we are late to the party and actually heavily resource constrained when it comes to actually sourcing equipment because after not building any charging points for so long there's now not enough companies to meet demand.
No really there just isn't. Unless you're a DIY company like Tesla, if you want to build an EV charger you will be stuck in quite an order backl
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In the news recently... (Score:3)
Earlier this week we learned that Hertz is dumping 20,000 EVs from their fleet as they are too expensive to repair/maintsin.
A couple weeks ago we learned that when a new car has its battery pack corrupted (compromised but still working, just not safe), the replacement battery can cost more than the entire car.
A couple weeks before that we learned that Ford was cutting F-150 Lightning EV pickup production in half because the near-$100K trucks are piling up on dealer lots, customer adoption has dropped significantly.
And back in the summer, wasn't it the Ford Exec that went public and said there were significant issues encountered during his publicity tour touting EV adoption, not the least of which were poorly maintained EV charging stations where many/most chargers were not working.
But yeah, more chargers are the answer, obviously!
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Earlier this week we learned that Hertz is dumping 20,000 EVs from their fleet as they are too expensive to repair/maintsin.
There's a big difference between how a rental car is used and maintained and how a normal passenger car is used and maintained.
But yeah, more chargers are the answer, obviously!
And I invite you to go back into that thread and read the comments section where we discussed Hertz's EV dumping. You'll find a not insignificant portion of people saying they will not rent an electric car because ... insufficient chargers.
A couple weeks ago we learned that when a new car has its battery pack corrupted (compromised but still working, just not safe), the replacement battery can cost more than the entire car.
Nope, not true. A complete replacement battery pack makes up about 10-30% of the cost of a car. Unless you're talking about the defective written
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Why does the US have issues with EVs? It's not distance, other countries have long drives in poor weather and cope with it. Infrastructure certainly seems to be an issue.
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Highway Robbery (Score:3)
And a percentage of gas cars must remain for all kinds of reason that I never see discussed here, like: Some families have have many cars in their driveway with no garage. Or: This week I got 7" of snow; should I have to shovel out a path to the charger outside before I use it? Same goes for the thousands of them planned everywhere, in the middle of nowhere--who shovels those out...who repairs them?
Having hundreds of millions of high-tech "micro gas stations" everywhere sounds silly from a pragmatic engineering standpoint.
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Few "voted" for just this. Electric cars will eventually dominate, but let it happen naturally, market forces and all of that, that will cause the least pain as each buyer decides. Subsidizing rich people's purchases seems silly no matter the intentions.
So, uhm, lets strip away gas subsidies if you want to even the playing field and see how "market forces and all of that" play. I bet that would increase EV adoption.
This week I got 7" of snow; should I have to shovel out a path to the charger outside before I use it? Same goes for the thousands of them planned everywhere, in the middle of nowhere--who shovels those out...who repairs them?
Most people charging at home have a full charge already, so what's this non-sense about shoveling out a path?
Having hundreds of millions of high-tech "micro gas stations" everywhere sounds silly from a pragmatic engineering standpoint.
Why? If you can, go for it. And we can - it's just copper wire!
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So, uhm, lets strip away gas subsidies if you want to even the playing field and see how "market forces and all of that" play. I bet that would increase EV adoption.
I agree, as long as it's done slowly for less impact on the people; fair is fair.
Most people charging at home have a full charge already, so what's this non-sense about shoveling out a path?
Look beyond your affluent suburb: Most (gas) cars are not garaged. I count 11 cars in the driveways just from my kitchen window.
Why? If you can, go for it. And we can - it's just copper wire!
We make water pumping stations for towns that sit outdoors; so I'm aware that it's not just the wiring. The post-sale maintenance is an incredible burden that keeps dozens of our staff busy full time. Heck, some large cities can't even keep up with the street light repairs/replacements with their la
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but let it happen naturally, market forces and all of that
Why would you shackle EVs like that? The car didn't dominate by market forces alone. They were helped along by an insane amount of government subsidies and assistance to build up the auto industry, including infrastructure to make the use of a car more easy and accessible. The entire fossil fuel industry was helped along by an insane amount of government subsidies and still is today, right now, including infrastructure to make oil more easily transportable.
Why would you treat EVs differently other than a de
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Just like Apple forcing parts pairing on their products, happened naturally. "Market forces" do have to be regulated: A quick look at the newspaper reveals, contrary to the buzzword-filled promises of rich people, the "invisible hand" does not stop bad stuff happening.
Just like an electric device in every building to chill food, is silly. People want food, so they want electricity-powered devices, so the state regulates the infrastructure via a monopoly.
The states don't want to do that for Electric Veh
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Just like Apple forcing parts pairing on their products, happened naturally. "Market forces" do have to be regulated: A quick look at the newspaper reveals, contrary to the buzzword-filled promises of rich people, the "invisible hand" does not stop bad stuff happening.
I don't see how these are related.
Just like an electric device in every building to chill food, is silly. People want food, so they want electricity-powered devices, so the state regulates the infrastructure via a monopoly.
A frig is paid for by the owner, IF he wants one. A frig doesn't sit outside in nasty weather 24/7, millions prone to vandalizing. A frig is relatively inexpensive. A frig isn't perpetually paid for by our great-grandchildren.
Is that what you do with the road passing your house. Or with the petrol-selling station you regularly visit? Yes, someone will have to clean and repair the service, just like a town's roads, which is a part of the plan. The plan also demands the owners be responsible for the electricity generation. Which is like demanding Facebook be responsible for the words on its web-site. Parts of the plan concentrate too much on solving everything and not enough on the benefit of a short-term goal.
Since you used the word "petrol", I'll assume you are a foreign friend. I don't think you realize how large the US is; I've driven across it twice and *I* didn't realize how large the US is. If someone wants to drive that far, they can rent a gas
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No law or public outrage forced parts pairing to be inserted into computing sub-systems. Someone else demanded it, at obvious detriment to the paying customer. The usual excuse for laissez-faire capitalism, is the "invisible hand" will only allow the good things to happen to the customer.
I'm pleased that your fridge doesn't require a electricity-generator plant, electricity transmission lines, HV towers and cable poles and electricity-consumption meters. Please tell me where I can buy such a fridge.
Agree
Correction (Score:2)
The usual excuse for laissez-faire ...
The usual excuse for "let it happen naturally" capitalism, is the "invisible hand" will only allow the good things to happen to the customer.
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No law or public outrage forced parts pairing to be inserted into computing sub-systems. Someone else demanded it, at obvious detriment to the paying customer. The usual excuse for laissez-faire capitalism, is the "invisible hand" will only allow the good things to happen to the customer.
Those monopolies can be investigated if need be. Are you telling me there are no computers that aren't made without this "parts pairing" (not even industrial machines or single board computers); if not, why don't you start a company for that if you think it's important? (I plead ignorance, as my machines are old.)
I'm pleased that your fridge doesn't require a electricity-generator plant, electricity transmission lines, HV towers and cable poles and electricity-consumption meters. Please tell me where I can buy such a fridge.
I think the power companies have MASSIVE teams to keep all that well-engineered stuff working. Grandma has a single EV charger in her driveway; when that fails, what can she do about it immediat
repeating the ethanol debacle (Score:3)
Electric vehicles, with current batteries, are not better for the environment than gas cars. Mining of rare earth elements for battery production is really, really harmful. Also, we're seeing EV sales plummet. https://www.usatoday.com/story... [usatoday.com]
GM has halted expansion of EV trucks: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/17... [cnn.com]
Ford laid off 700 workers at the truck EV plant as sales have dropped 45% over last year: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16... [cnn.com]
Prices for electric vehicles are dropping, but that's because inventories are up and people aren't buying. https://www.usatoday.com/story... [usatoday.com]
I think we've hit the point that all those who want eclectic vehicles have bought them. The market is saturated. Hybrids are still in demand, but not electric, and charging stations isn't the whole problem. We need better energy storage before this really works well, and most buyers have figured that out.
too late (Score:2)
End up like the scooters (Score:1)
Money Better Spent on Solar and Weatherization (Score:2)