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Power News

Amazon Plans To Make Its Own Hydrogen To Power Vehicles (theverge.com) 77

Posted by msmash from the up-next dept.
Amazon is making plans to produce hydrogen fuel at its fulfillment centers. The retail behemoth partnered with hydrogen company Plug Power to install the first electrolyzer -- equipment that can split water molecules to produce hydrogen -- at a fulfillment center in Aurora, Colorado. From a report: The electrolyzer will make fuel for around 225 fork lift trucks at the site, although Plug says it has the capacity to fuel up to 400 hydrogen fuel cell-powered forklifts. This is the first time Amazon has tried to make its own hydrogen on site, and it's not likely to be the last. "On-site production will make the use of hydrogen even more energy efficient for certain locations and types of facilities," Asad Jafry, Amazon's director of global hydrogen economy, said in a press release announcing the installation of the first electrolyzer yesterday. "Hydrogen is an important tool in our efforts to decarbonize our operations by 2040."

[...] Hydrogen produces water vapor instead of greenhouse gas emissions during combustion, a trait that's made it more attractive to companies and governments working to meet climate goals. The big problem they need to tackle is cleaning up the process of making hydrogen in the first place. Today, most of it is made using fossil fuels, primarily through a reaction between steam and methane. The process releases planet-heating carbon dioxide. Methane leaks are another problem since methane -- also called natural gas -- is an even more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. Plug tries to solve those problems by using electrolyzers to produce hydrogen. Instead of using methane, it uses electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. If that electricity is generated by renewable sources of energy like wind or solar, it's called green hydrogen.
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Amazon Plans To Make Its Own Hydrogen To Power Vehicles More

Amazon Plans To Make Its Own Hydrogen To Power Vehicles

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  • great idea (Score:3)

    by CEC-P ( 10248912 ) on Thursday December 28, 2023 @03:50PM (#64112855)
    Bulletpoints from that meeting (I assume)
    What we need for a reliable, sustainable vehicle:
    Green energy BUT make it less efficient by losing HUGE percentages in electrolysis and even higher in burning it. We gotta get those 100 watt panels down to 10 watts or less, guys!
    Make it more dangerous - more explosive
    Use tech that nearly nobody uses so we have the highest development and engineering R&D costs
    Crappier energy density than petroleum or lithium batteries
    Shorter range before needing refueling because Amazon is definitely not known for not driving long distances on a daily basis.

    Solid idea, let's do it!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by CEC-P ( 10248912 )
      Btw, this the the only thing you need to read the from article:
      The big problem they need to tackle is cleaning up the process of making hydrogen in the first place. Today, most of it is made using fossil fuels, primarily through a reaction between steam and methane. The process releases planet-heating carbon dioxide. Methane leaks are another problem since methane — also called natural gas — is an even more potent greenhouse gas than CO2.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by CEC-P ( 10248912 )
        Oops, I pasted in the wrong quote. It's:
        The electrolyzer is plugged into the power grid, and fossil fuels still make up about 60 percent of the US electricity mix.

        But yeah, the first quote tells you why current hydrogen production is bullshit. The 2nd one tells you why Amazon's new idea is bullshit.

        • Yeah, I can't help but get the feeling that this is simply an exercise in virtue-signalling rather than any serious attempt to reduce carbon emissions.

          In fact, given the inefficiencies, it would be *much* more effective to simply buy electric forklifts and charge them from the power grid. At least you'd get about 90 percent of the energy going into doing the work you want. Once you figure electrolysis losses into the equation, the proposed "solution" is just a waste of time and money.

          • And let's not forget that you've not only got to use energy to split the water -- but then you'll have to use even more energy to compress the collected H2 into the cylinders you'll be using on your forklifts. Compressors to that level (200 bar or so) will use a *lot* of energy that is *never* recovered.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by CEC-P ( 10248912 )
              And you have to transport and purify the water.

            • Right... Compressing gas why in dive shops it's SOO expensive to fill SCUBA low tanks at 2200PSI (about 151 BAR). SCUBA high is 3000PSI is a bit over 300 BAR, again done SO expensively in the back room of the dive shop.

              • The amount of energy in 11L of compressed hydrogen (11L is a scuba tank) is equivalent to about 3L of gasoline. 3/4 gallon. Back of the envelope calculation is that compressing the hydrogen takes 10 to 20% of the energy that can ultimately be recovered from the hydrogen.

                • ... Except we don't care about volume. Weight/mass is the key.
                  At 300 BAR 2L is sufficient to drive a small car at 60MPH for about 300 miles.
                  This is a REAL, existing vehicle. The Riversimple Rasa out of Wales.

                  Go re-do your figures

                  • Re: (Score:2)

                    by q_e_t ( 5104099 )
                    We do care about volume as that is how things fit into a reasonable space and why hydrogen-powered aircraft aren't used. 1L of liquid hydrogen is equivalent to 0.27L of gasoline in terms of energy. You can look it up ( https://www.energy.gov/eere/fu... [energy.gov]) It's the most dense you can get hydrogen. You can't drive a normal small car 300 miles on 1L of gasoline. The RiverSimple certainly isn't a standard small car.
          • In fact, given the inefficiencies, it would be *much* more effective to simply buy electric forklifts and charge them from the power grid. At least you'd get about 90 percent of the energy going into doing the work you want. Once you figure electrolysis losses into the equation, the proposed "solution" is just a waste of time and money.

            Imagine how much fossil fuels are used to produce fissionable uranium. Between the mining, the hauling, the processing, the gassification, the centrifuges, creation of th

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by CEC-P ( 10248912 )
              Well the thoery is that all uranium would be mined by electric vehicles because all vehicles would be electric because electric would be charged by Uranium.
              Plus, burning Hydrogen leaves slippery, wet floors so more employees skid their forklifts into each other and into products and workers slip and fall more often. I actually have no idea if this is true but it'd hilarious.

          • For the forklifts in and of themselves hydrogen seems to be competing with Lithium Ion for the virtue of getting richer. It's a giant market which has appeared organically. The energy is more expensive, but it makes better use of floorspace, the indentured servants and has less chance of damage (battery swaps are a bitch).

            For the rest, if at net zero, all hydrogen comes from renewables and electrolyzers, Amazon is big enough to DIY that. Might as well experiment with it now.

          • the old forklifts most likely had a large mix of electric, using lead acid batteries because they are used indoors. The total economics has more to do with maintenance and downtime due to charging, along with efficiency due to battery weight.

            From amazon's press release the mention these fuelcells replacing batteries, not other fossil fuels powered forklifts. "To date, Plug has collaborated with Amazon to deploy more than 17,000 fuel cells to replace batteries in forklifts in more than 80 fulfillment
            • Having a heavy base to the forklift seems like something that might be an advantage. Charging is mainly an issue if it's a 24-7 operation or charging is slow.
        • I love the idea of taking precious water from the drought-stricken Western US where states are suing each other over rights to drinkable water, and Amazon presumably wants to compete for that same precious resource and turn it into fuel. It's brilliant
          • I suspect these centers already run a heavy amount of dehumidification...which could be a handy source of pure water.

            But much like data centers that use water once, we need heavy regulation on companies to not do that and to recapture water as much as possible.
        • A green economy is 2 and parallel steps. Greening consumption, and greening generation.

          The latter auto greens every consumption that's electrified. This is a decent part of the consumption side. As the grid then greens this becomes even greener.

          No one size solution. Hydrogen has a place and smaller, localized use 'indoor' vehicles might be a decent one of those. Unlike batteries these don't lose range over time either.

          Perfect arguing with good situation me thinks.

      • So explain to me exactly how you know where the energy for your tesla comes from?

        Shall we discuss the the Tesla megacharge station powered by a diesel plant? Hmmm... Shall we?

        • You do realize that we need *both* consumption (Teslas) and production to be made green, right? We literally can't wait for 100% green production to be complete before converting consumption to electricity.

          So yes, EVs today are probably majority charged with non-green sources.

          but literally with NO EFFORT for the consumption EV, can be make 100% green as the grid becomes green.

          Two step process that has to be done in parallel.
        • You've just explained how you don't understand how a power transition works

      • An elephant in the room is the efficiency, Solar electricity through electrolyser and fuel cell to power for the forklift (including electronics such as max-power-point trackers for solar panels) vs. equivalent devices (inverters, charge controllers, etc.) for alternatives such as battery-electric.

        LFP and several other lithium battery systems are now 93-97% efficient round trip from solar or line input to line-equivalent AC. Going to motor control should be at least that good. Last I heard, electrolyzer/f

    • Missing bulletpoint from the presentation:

      - Whatever you do, don't use any components sold on Amazon to make the eletrolyzer!

    • RTFS! Is FORKLIFTS, not "vehicles" (Score:5, Informative)

      by williamyf ( 227051 ) on Thursday December 28, 2023 @05:15PM (#64113121)

      Bulletpoints from that meeting (I assume)

      What we need for a reliable, sustainable vehicle:

      Green energy BUT make it less efficient by losing HUGE percentages in electrolysis and even higher in burning it. We gotta get those 100 watt panels down to 10 watts or less, guys!

      Make it more dangerous - more explosive

      Use tech that nearly nobody uses so we have the highest development and engineering R&D costs

      Crappier energy density than petroleum or lithium batteries

      Shorter range before needing refueling because Amazon is definitely not known for not driving long distances on a daily basis.

      Solid idea, let's do it!

      Amazon seems pretty happy with those Rivian delivery Vans. The thing with forklifts is that, when you use them in enclosed spaces (like say, a fullfillment center), ICEs are a big no-no, because the CO2 and CO can kill people.

      So, your only options are either Electric forklifts or Hydrogen Forklifts. And guess what? Unlike the delivery vans, which can be carged overnight (because night deliveries are significantly fewer than daytime ones), Forklifts in a fullfillment center are used 24/7, so recharging time counts.

      Hydrogen forklifts can be recharged in less than 5 min, Vs the hour or so of downtime for electric forklifts...

      Even at reduced efficiency, If they can make the Hydrogen with clean energy (solar+Wind), is still clean.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by erice ( 13380 )

        Amazon seems pretty happy with those Rivian delivery Vans. The thing with forklifts is that, when you use them in enclosed spaces (like say, a fullfillment center), ICEs are a big no-no, because the CO2 and CO can kill people.

        So, your only options are either Electric forklifts or Hydrogen Forklifts. And guess what? Unlike the delivery vans, which can be carged overnight (because night deliveries are significantly fewer than daytime ones), Forklifts in a fullfillment center are used 24/7, so recharging time counts.

        Hydrogen forklifts can be recharged in less than 5 min, Vs the hour or so of downtime for electric forklifts...

        Even at reduced efficiency, If they can make the Hydrogen with clean energy (solar+Wind), is still clean.

        A well known solution to the charging time problem is battery swapping. There are solvable but real issues with battery swapping "in the wild" but these don't really apply in this application.

        1. Batteries are heavy so moving them around requires something like a fork lift. Where are you going to find one of those in an Amazon warehouse? Oh, wait..
        2. Cars come in a wide range of shapes related to reducing aerodynamic drag. Working with those different ways to accessing differing shaped batteries is a real pro

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Just buy a few more of them so you can have some on charge while others are in use.

      • Why not have more forklifts?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mjwx ( 966435 )

        Amazon seems pretty happy with those Rivian delivery Vans. The thing with forklifts is that, when you use them in enclosed spaces (like say, a fullfillment center), ICEs are a big no-no, because the CO2 and CO can kill people.

        Erm... Warehouses have used LPG forklifts for decades. Emissions are lower than petrol or diesel on standard LPG and you can get specialised LPG with even lower carbon emissions, also as there are fewer emissions it's far easier to contain or scrub them.

        They're still favoured over electric as they don't need daily downtime for recharging. So unless you've a brand new warehouse with electrified rails everywhere (which are a hazard too) electric fork lifts aren't really that viable.

    • In fact, both Walmart and Amazon own significant portions of PLUG for the same reason... OK, maybe not Amazon. Walmart freaked when Amazon got involved a several years ago,

      Walmart use the H2 forklift systems in their warehouses and have for years because propane driven units really don't work well in the closed environment of a warehouse (carbon monoxide anyone?), battery power units are "down for charging over 40% of the time" (the fleet needs to be almost 50% larger due to down time $$$$$)

    • They aren't burning it. Fuel cells.

  • Might as well put it in a digester to create biogass.

    • Bezos stepped down as CEO back in 2021. The operations are being run by other people.

      Not that Bezos still doesn't have a say, but he's not in control.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by taustin ( 171655 )

      I think whoever is behind this is already producing quite a bit of biogas.

  • Something else to complicate the jobs of firefighters while solving nothing.

    • To be fair, EV forklifts would also "complicate the jobs of firefighters".

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ukoda ( 537183 )
        No necessary, lead acid batteries work well for fork trucks, have done for decades, and fire risk from them is close to zero, much lower than diesel forklifts.

    • Their job would be much easier. If they went to Lithium battery powered forklifts, the fire could be burning for hours where firefighters would have to hose them down to slow down the reaction.

      Meanwhile, Hydrogen just makes a giant boom and explodes into a fireball. The fire is over much more quickly.

      • More likely a woosh. Getting an explosive mix will be hard and can only realistically happen at the roof, some ventilation in the right spots and it won't happen there either.

        • Actually hydrogen has an amazingly wide stoichiometric range (anywhere between 30:1 to 200:1) so it's very easy to get a mix with air that becomes highly explosive (unlike most other gasses).

  • is it a company ... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    ... or a corporanation?

  • ..research project, but many serious challenges remain
    Current electrolyzers/compressors are VERY inefficient
    We need direct solar production and solid state storage, NOT wasted "investment" in today's crappy tech

    • Direct solar production is almost certainly not a good idea. With thin film you can cover a large area with minimal expensive material ... now fill that entire area with water and hydrogen transport, it's suddenly fucking expensive. Cheap PV with relatively compact electrolyzers is almost certainly superior.

      There is no point in transforming the hydrogen into something else for them either, then they have to extract hydrogen again to feed the fuel cell. Needless complexity. Couple hundred bar hydrogen is wor

  • I wonder if this is a first step to eventually produce their own hydrogen for fuel-cell powered delivery trucks later on. That could be interesting.
  • I have friend who works almost full time repairing warehouses damaged by forklifts. Now he will be able to work with a clean slate. :)
  • isnt that dangerous? hydrogen burns clean but there is a lot of water in the exhaust which causes rust, hope the exhaust pipe can last 20 years

    • A 316 stainless steel exhaust will solve that problem.

      It does not solve the problem of "The minimum ignition energy (MIE) of a hydrogen–air mixture is only 0.019 mJ, whereas that of other flammable gases such as petrol, methane, ethane, propane, butane, and benzene is usually on the order of 0.1 mJ according to Lewis and von Elbe"

      Hopefully they put the generator outdoors.

      • It isn't ignition- the article is not accurate when it mentions "combustion" - these are fuel cell forklifts. Hydrogen and oxygen from the air in, water + electricity (and some heat) out.

        To the point of flammability, Hydrogen is way less dense than those other flammable gasses, and dissipates (goes up) far faster. It is easy to ignite, but it does not sink and pool.

  • What I found interesting is the fact that Amazon apparently already operates hundreds of fuel-cell forklifts so this makes sense as a natural next step since one way or another they're buying hydrogen.

    It'd be interesting to see the economics of this in what they are already paying for production and transport versus making it on site. I gotta imagine it's close to break even or better, the PR from this cannot be worth a big operating loss, but then again this is Amazon and running some things at a loss is

  • Amazon seems pretty happy with those Rivian delivery Vans. The thing with forklifts is that, when you use them in enclosed spaces (like say, a fullfillment center), ICEs are a big no-no, because the CO2 and CO can kill people.

    So, your only options are either Electric forklifts or Hydrogen Forklifts. And guess what? Unlike the delivery vans, which can be carged overnight (because night deliveries are significantly fewer than daytime ones), Forklifts in a fullfillment center are used 24/7, so recharging time

    • a big no-no? seen and smelled propane forklifts in dozens of warehouses over the years, lolz

      • Very hard to use an ICE forklift in an air conditioned area. Guidelines I've read suggest an air exchange of 5,000 cubic feet per minute per propane forklift, 8,000 per gasoline forklift. Considering the carp that Amazon has gone through with reports of high temperatures in their facilities, It would be pretty hard to have "climate controlled" facilities (their words) and combustion forklifts (and these forklifts are fuel cell).

        • Most warehouses aren't for multi-billion dollar corporations.

          You think Joe's Big Bait and Tackle or Bubba's Booze Emporium cares about those guidelines? hahahaha

    • Or just get some extra forklifts. Even a cursory googling round indicates modern li-ion electric forklifts can run for quite a few hours (8) off a 1 hour charge. For continuous operation, 24/7 you'd need 1.125 times the number of fork lifts (not 3x like with the old lead acid sort).

      That seems simpler and easier and almost certainly cheaper than building a whole electricity to H2 system, H2 charging infrastructure and bunch of handling kit and so on.

      Then "charging" is even quicker: park the forklift and plug

  • Will be first hydrogen with a low cost option with ads.
  • Amazon also announced plans to power Amazon delivery trucks using methane fuel. When asked how they will obtain that fuel, the spokeman hinted 'We bought an interest in Taco Bell to feed our drivers".

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Rademir ( 168324 )

      "It was after the public found out what drivers had to do to collect the methane powering their vehicles, that support for unionization at Amazon really took off."

  • Given all the disadvantages of hydrogen, I have to wonder whether a battery swapping solution might not be better.

    Battery swapping has problems as a general solution for transportation, but for forklifts in a warehouse it should work pretty well.

    I read the article and what jumps out at me is that Amazon is buying hydrogen forklifts from a company. So at least they are going with an off-the-shelf solution that they have already tried and is known to work. The only real news is that they are getting their o

    • Batteries are heavy though. How are you going to lift them? /sarcasm.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by steveha ( 103154 )

        Jokes aside, some kind of pack-swapping machine is probably the way to go.

        Forklifts have counterweights so they can lift heavy things without tipping. I think the battery pack could double as a counterweight, getting a benefit from the weight. And then there's the energy efficiency and less danger of fiery death.

        • Or a forklift swapping machine, otherwise known as having a few more fork lifts. Li-ion batteries charge pretty fast, so the number of extra fork lifts you need is pretty small.

  • People don't realise that hydrogen is a greenhouse gas: It prevents atmospheric methane from degrading. Not only that, but about 10% of hydrogen inevitably leaks off during production and storage due to its remarkable ability to penetrate the most cleverly engineered seals.

    • That's not the definition of a greenhouse gas. But the rest of your point stands.

    • TIL hydrogen prevents (slows) methane from degrading. Still, hydrogen doesn't stick around in the atmosphere long- about 2 years (typ) before it eventually gets stripped from the atmosphere by the sun's radiation. Methane sticks around until broken down- which takes (typ) 12 years.

  • The article is not accurate when it mentions "combustion" - these are fuel cell forklifts. Hydrogen and Oxygen from the air in, water + electricity (and some heat) out.

    Fuel cells are a pretty decent option (when you're not generating the Hydrogen from fossil fuels), since the working temperatures are far lower than combustion. When you burn a fuel in air, the high temperatures lead to reactions with the Nitrogen, producing NOX gasses.

  • The electrolyzer will be powered by clean electricity, made by burning the hydrogen that is produced.

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