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Power Transportation

12 V Battery Problem Forces Toyota To Recall 1.8 Million SUVs (arstechnica.com) 62

Posted by BeauHD from the still-working-on-a-fix dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: There's plenty of fear, uncertainty, and doubt about electric cars and the potential risk of battery fires, but the regular old 12 V battery is responsible for Toyota issuing a recall for more than 1.8 million cars this week. Toyota says the problem is due to differences in the sizes of replacement batteries -- some have smaller tops than others, and if a smaller-top battery isn't held in properly by its clamp, the battery could move under hard cornering, letting the positive terminal contact the clamp, causing a short-circuit and possible fire risk.

The problem affects 2013-2018 RAV4s -- about 1,854,000 of them, according to Toyota. The official National Highway Traffic Safety Administration safety recall notice has not yet been posted, but NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigation has had an open case looking into the problem since February 2021, after 11 complaints about "non-crash thermal events" starting in the engine bays of RAV4s. Toyota says that it's working on a new hold-down clamp, battery tray, and positive terminal cover. Once those are ready, the automaker will replace those components for free. The automaker says owners should be contacted about the recall by late December.
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12 V Battery Problem Forces Toyota To Recall 1.8 Million SUVs More

12 V Battery Problem Forces Toyota To Recall 1.8 Million SUVs

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  • Battery fire? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If you've ever seen a RAV4 or CRV on the road, its clear the drivers are a greater risk to death and destruction. And this has nothing to do with the gender of the driver. If you drive one of these vehicles and wonder what I'm talking about, get off your cell phone and go take a driver education course. Once you pass those two tests, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

  • Cheap and desperate to mention EVs (Score:5, Insightful)

    by KingFatty ( 770719 ) on Friday November 03, 2023 @08:16AM (#63976550)
    The article could be better, but it stooped low and went for the click bait by mentioning EVs completely unrelated to the affected RAV4s. The RAV4 affected models are 2013-2018. Why even mention electric vehicles?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by XXongo ( 3986865 )
      Because EV fires make the news so much, it's important to point out that no, this is not about EV fires, it's about ordinary ICE vehicles catching fire.

      Normally ICE cars catching fire don't make the news, but I guess when millions of vehicles have a risk of fire, it becomes newsworthy. In specialty media, anyway.

      • But this doesn't mention ICE vehicles, or whether the 12 V batteries are located in traditional ICE vehicles or EVs. Some EVs *ALSO* have 12 V batteries, so it's important to explain whether the affected 12 V batteries are located in traditional ICE vehicles or EV vehicles. But the article fails to do that. The article is lazy and just leaves it as an exercise for the reader to figure out whether 2013-2018 RAV4s with 12 V batteries are ICE or EV.

        • 12V batteries shorting out, regardless of the location, is not newsworthy to the segment of the population who are keenly interested to know if they're EVs. They only want to read car-fire stories that might confirm their view that lithium ion batteries are too dangerous to use.

          The info mentioning EVis there in the article so that those people know to scroll on to the next headline.

    • The summary mentioned that the vehicles in question are RAV4's, which are either ICE or hybrid. Also the headline itself mentioned that these were 12v batteries, I.E. the batteries that are in every ICE car to run the starter motor and other electrics before the alternator becomes engaged.

      You had no need to rush to the slobbering defence of EVs.

      Further more, this is Toyota, a Japanese car maker that will typically fix issues before they become serious. I had a recall on my Honda Integra 14 years after

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by KingFatty ( 770719 )
        You seem to fail to understand that most EVs *ALSO* have 12 V batteries. The article fails to inform the reader whether the vehicles are ICE or EV. It's just coming across as cheap the way the article tries to shoehorn in EV just to get more clicks.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by mjwx ( 966435 )

          You seem to fail to understand that most EVs *ALSO* have 12 V batteries. The article fails to inform the reader whether the vehicles are ICE or EV. It's just coming across as cheap the way the article tries to shoehorn in EV just to get more clicks.

          You seem to fail to understand that EVs weren't even mentioned in the summary or headline.

          No one would have even thought about it before your utterly sad mention.

          A 2013-2018 RAV4 were either hybrid or pure ICE. But hey, don't let facts get in your way.

          • You seem to fail to understand that EVs weren't even mentioned in the summary or headline.

            From the fucking summary, quoted from the fucking article:

            There's plenty of fear, uncertainty, and doubt about electric cars and theÂpotential risk of battery fires, but the regular old 12 V battery is responsible for ToyotaÂissuing a recall for more than 1.8 million cars this week.

            I know failing to read the article is a tradition, but at least read the summary before arguing about what it does or doesn't men

        • You seem to fail to understand that most EVs *ALSO* have 12 V batteries. The article fails to inform the reader whether the vehicles are ICE or EV. It's just coming across as cheap the way the article tries to shoehorn in EV just to get more clicks.

          I thought everybody who is technical understands that EVs also have 12v batteries for their auxiliary functions, and the OP obviously does so. I thought it went without saying.
          The headline did not even make me think of EVs, but TFA mentioned that it was nothing to do with EVs in case people who know nothing about cars might assume that "battery" must mean EV.

          • The headline is ambiguous. You don't know whether it's about ICE or EV. The slashdot summary begins talking about EVs right off the bat. EVs have 12 V batteries. This creates the impression that the issue would affect EVs. That's just bad/misleading writing. My guess is the author didn't know that EVs also have 12 V batteries, and therefore didn't even understand they were creating a misleading situation. Nowhere does the article clarify the issue affects ICE vehicles and not EVs.

    • Re:Cheap and desperate to mention EVs (Score:5, Insightful)

      by burtosis ( 1124179 ) on Friday November 03, 2023 @08:55AM (#63976662)

      Why even mention electric vehicles?

      Because this is extremely relevant. About a third of people have great difficulties introspecting and creating a consistent world view, and as a result they have limited capacity to understand reality devoid of double think. They feel comfort when they believe they have achieved equilibrium with knowledge and are done with it forever, any curiosity or wonder at discovery is replaced with foreboding and anxiety at having to deal with new information. Thus when anything new comes along, it’s hard for even the few trusted people in their thought verification chain, like a pastor, ‘News’ caster, or political leader, to pound the sizeable square peg into that tiny smooth round hole. Part of continuing to be the shepherd of such a flock, and the financial gain and power it provides, is to reinforce that rigid belief structure through fear. For undertaking rational discourse and putting self reason at the helm dissolves the authoritarian power structure and leaves the followers in a disastrous mental state of atrophy after a lifetime of neglect. But more importantly, it severs the revenue and power streams keeping the few privileged at the top in power, and they handle it slightly less well than ripping meth out of an addicts hand. Thus it’s imperative to create a continuous fear stream around anything new or unrealized to keep them hooked and the profits flowing.

      Shit, that was rhetorical wasn’t it? I’m terrible at just absorbing that and not rationalizing it all the way down.

      • Why a third of people as opposed to being a simple facet of human nature? Educated and "rational" thinkers fall into exactly the same traps and are deceived just like anyone, the difference being they are pompous and self-aggrandizing about it.

        • Why a third of people as opposed to being a simple facet of human nature? Educated and "rational" thinkers fall into exactly the same traps and are deceived just like anyone, the difference being they are pompous and self-aggrandizing about it.

          People who have compartmentalized thinking fall into the traps, the rationality is not universal but only within sub functions of a broken patchwork of thought that cannot form a cohesive whole. It’s the willful disregard for consistency, and holding beliefs that cannot simultaneously be true. Being educated and/or intelligent just correlate with a consistent world view, they do not guarantee it. There are many examples of both who never introspect and iron out the inconsistencies. They may be af

          • I kind of see this as a feature rather than a bug. Reality is not perfectly logical or coherent, there are circumstances in our everyday lives where ideas that are opposed to each other can, in fact, both be correct. There isn't a person living who always acts reasonable and rational, no matter how "integrated" their thinking is or how consistent their worldview is.

            Also, fear of social exclusion is also a good thing because it reinforces norms of behavior, typically to the benefit of society. What is good f

            • Also, fear of social exclusion is also a good thing because it reinforces norms of behavior, typically to the benefit of society. What is good for the many may not be good for the individual, but such is life.

              Yes, it can be good or bad and we all have to have a starting point. But without that consistent self reasoning at the helm to discern what’s real, or at the very least consistent with facts, it’s easy to be lead astray of their own best interests for the benefit of those at the top. Further, if what is good for the in group is not maximizing good for everyone in the widest sense possible then it’s also likely not as good for the individual even if it’s not realized. As far as tha

      • Why even mention electric vehicles?

        Because this is extremely relevant. About a third of people have great difficulties introspecting and creating a consistent world view, and as a result they have limited capacity to understand reality devoid of double think. They feel comfort when they believe they have achieved equilibrium with knowledge and are done with it forever, any curiosity or wonder at discovery is replaced with foreboding and anxiety at having to deal with new information. Thus when anything new comes along, it’s hard for even the few trusted people in their thought verification chain, like a pastor, ‘News’ caster, or political leader, to pound the sizeable square peg into that tiny smooth round hole. Part of continuing to be the shepherd of such a flock, and the financial gain and power it provides, is to reinforce that rigid belief structure through fear. For undertaking rational discourse and putting self reason at the helm dissolves the authoritarian power structure and leaves the followers in a disastrous mental state of atrophy after a lifetime of neglect. But more importantly, it severs the revenue and power streams keeping the few privileged at the top in power, and they handle it slightly less well than ripping meth out of an addicts hand. Thus it’s imperative to create a continuous fear stream around anything new or unrealized to keep them hooked and the profits flowing.

        Alternatively, maybe the author was trying to make the point that EVs aren't the only vehicles subject to electrical fires, to help correct the EV misinformation.

    • The article could be better, but it stooped low and went for the click bait by mentioning EVs completely unrelated to the affected RAV4s.

      The RAV4 affected models are 2013-2018. Why even mention electric vehicles?

      The relationship was it was a battery fire risk, and they want to point out that even ICE vehicles can have a battery fire.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Dusanyu ( 675778 )
      I think the author is trying to pull the "See See ICE has battery fires too" defense for EVs ignoring the fact that these are two very different situations one involving factory installed parts and the other about a factory fixing a problem having to do with poorly installed or incorrect parts being installed by third parties. totally making the point they were trying to make overshadowed.

  • Interesting here that Toyota seems to be taking responsibility for replacement battery compatibility. They are recalling their vehicles to account for a different-specced replacement battery.

    That's pretty impressive to be honest - rather than put the burden on whoever is replacing the battery to make sure it fits snugly, they are modifying their vehicles post-release at their own cost to accommodate a wider range of batteries. Unless these are Toyota replacement batteries, not third-party?

    This is cool I g

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The issue seems to be that standard size replacement batteries can be smaller than the factory fit ones Toyota used. Although automotive battery sizes are somewhat standard, the tolerances are quite large. Apparently requiring the owner to fit a Toyota approved battery is not an acceptable solution to the NHTSA, so they have to adjust the clamp and provide a positive terminal cover.

      I'm surprised the positive terminal isn't covered already, I thought that was a standard feature. Maybe they need a different s

      • "Apparently requiring the owner to fit a Toyota approved battery is not an acceptable solution to the NHTSA,"

        Good. There is no guarantee that a Toyota shop will be readily available when the battery expires. So whatever you can find is what you'll get as a replacement. Furthermore you don't want to encourage really odd factory only batteries which will quickly become vendor lock in items like happened with cell phones. They had a size and weight excuse to use highly customized batteries, cars don't.

        Toyota d

      • Apparently requiring the owner to fit a Toyota approved battery is not an acceptable solution to the NHTSA, so they have to adjust the clamp and provide a positive terminal cover.

        And why would the NHTSA require the owner to buy another battery that meets the power specifications as well as passed NHTSA regulations when the one they bought already does that. Also the battery being slightly smaller on the top should not be an earth shattering change. I changed out car batteries before and slight physical differences are normal. It seems like the problem is that car was not designed to accommodate a replacement battery being slightly smaller.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Scoth ( 879800 )

        I actually ran into this a bit with my car (Scion FR-S, technically a Toyota?). It did indeed have a slightly smaller than stock replacement battery and the previous owner had either lost or not tightened down the battery clamp properly, and it was gone. This let the battery rock back and forth, with the battery terminal banging off a strut tower brace. The terminal cover was a pretty simple little clip on thing, and had clearly been knocked off or come off somewhere along the line. Maybe from banging on th

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          All the Japanese cars I've owned have soft rubber-like plastic covers, which don't get brittle or break when you take them off.

        • It is a standard feature but I can't recall a single car I've ever owned from any manufacturer where that cover wasn't a cheap piece of plastic that breaks the very first time you take it off.

          That's why it was better back in Detroit's glory days, when battery hold-downs were made of real metal.

          Of course, they routinely rusted out after a few years, and I had at least one car where the battery just slid around loose in the tray. If only I had seen this article back then, I probably would have tried to fix it :)

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Hall ( 962 )

            That's why it was better back in Detroit's glory days, when battery hold-downs were made of real metal.

            Of course, they routinely rusted out after a few years, and I had at least one car where the battery just slid around loose in the tray. If only I had seen this article back then, I probably would have tried to fix it :)

            People are talking about two different things. The post above is referring to the plastic, hinged cover that goes over the positive battery terminal. Those do break frequently on some cars because of the plastic they chose to use. I've personally never seen a plastic battery hold-down bracket. Not saying they don't exist, of course. They've all been metal, usually the J-hook type with two threaded rods and then a metal bar that goes between those rods. Most have a rubbery or plastic piece molded over the b

    • The design of the battery retention system and its proximity to conductors like the hood could affect how likely this is when a wrong-sized battery is used - which happens all the time, since it's incredibly difficult to get one that's exactly the same size as the original. I wish the sizes were more standardized in the first place. But that horse is out of the barn.

      But I agree with you, this doesn't sound like any egregious mistake by Toyota, more like something that most companies would never detect or

      • The battery group sizes are very standardized, but the battery terminal locations are not. Their exact position can vary significantly. This is why the goofiest battery terminal designs are terrible. Our Sprinter van has a whole bunch of crap hanging off the positive terminal. If the terminal isn't in quite the right place then it's a mess. It would have been really easy to mount that stuff elsewhere and have just a simple cable going from it to the positive terminal but that's not how they chose to do it,

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Dumass ( 602667 )
        We've got one of the likely affected Hybrids and the 12V battery is in the trunk under a plastic cover. Here's how to get to it. https://youtu.be/wXSdtr0RG0E [youtu.be] Honestly, the only worry I've got is it shaking around a bit back there. I guess it could tip slightly?

    • Batteries normally vary to a degree. If they don't take into account expected variances in battery terminal position and location then they failed at engineering.

      • This is what happens when new engineers are hired with no real world experience and the older engineers are let go such that there is no one to advise the new.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by rahmrh ( 939610 )

          In the automation world it is called a "brittle solution". People make very specific (often not exactly true) assumptions and they breaks if there are normal expected variation.; Often because the new engineer/developers does not have the slightest understanding of normal/variation and over specifies the solution to be exact and to be better if everything is perfect as expected (and actually makes things worse because it fails when there is normal variation). I wonder how much the variation between the

      • Especially since most battery retention clamps don't need to be more than two 10mm bolts with hook ends at the bottom to clamp to the battery tray and a couple wing nuts.

        I mean, what the hell did Toyota do here to screw this up after successfully retaining the 12VDC battery for like 40 years?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Teun ( 17872 )
      Yes interesting what Toyota is doing.
      I would sooner point at the person who installed the ill fitting battery, that's the one who should have taken care by inserting insulation where the danger of contact is introduced or exists, a piece cut out of an old inner tube would probably do.
      • Most batteries are 'installed for free' with purchase. You really think the teen they hire to do the free install is going to take the time to 'engineer' a solution to a problem that toyota should not have created?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Teun ( 17872 )
          The teen has a supervisor or manager who is answering to "The Boss".
          A lack of training is no excuse.
    • They are simply adding a different bracket that is apparently more universal.
  • I know too many people see "battery" and jump on the anti-EV bandwagon but this has nothing to do with that. It's also no fault of Toyota's for what is happening here as it specifically is related to replacement batteries, not Toyota-installed ones. This is an installation failure and not a Toyota defect. Good on Toyota for taking care of it though.
    • You sound like an Apple person. If a standard size battery group # specced by Toyota from another manufacturer is not fitting properly that is on Toyota and their battery retainer design. Battery groups are standardized but there are variation size tolerances for which Toyota is admitting they did not account for.

  • More than a BILLION cars have been produced over the last 116 years, nearly 2 billion by some estimates... after all of this manufacturing experience how does one fuck up so badly on a well known and very well understood 12v system?

    I mean I get that stupid people do stupid things, but there are design choices available that can limit stupidity and prevent such issues.

    Makes me think twice about wanting to buy that new Supra I've been wanting...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by rahmrh ( 939610 )

      Well, go back too many years ago and they would just write up cause of fire was battery mounted incorrectly and not dig into it any further as to why the battery was mounted incorrectly.

      Most of the 12V battery mounts are a disaster to reattach. They often unhook/fallout of the lower hole they go in when removed and are a pain to get back together. For a part (the battery) that will have to be replaced around every 5-7 years there has always been a lack of engineering around the entire setup. It would se

      • Yeah, it's super hard to undo one fastener at a time and re-apply the nut to the battery retention mechanism (mostly two steel bolts with hooks that apply pressure to the battery tray when the retention bar is tightened to the top of the battery) so it doesn't fall into the engine bay after you've released the battery, right?

        I mean, this is just a disaster:
        1. hold battery retention clamp bolt with one hand
        2. release nut from bolt with other hand - protip: use a wrench to break the nut loose, and then use yo

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by rahmrh ( 939610 )

          It is clear to me you have not personally seen/touched/ever change a battery. Rarely are the ones I have seen a "bolt" that your instructions work with. The other end of the "bolt" is a hook into the bottom of the battery tray and it will fall out if someone follows your instructions, the nut on the top of the bolt does nothing to keep it anywhere. Once you get the new battery in, getting the hook(s) reattached to the bottom of the box with little or no clearance (once the battery is in) is less than eas

          • Interesting, since I've changed countless batteries in many different vehicles without ever fumbling any of the retention bracket into the engine bay.

            Maybe you just suck at this kind of thing, and the other poster was right - you have no business being under the hood of your car, and should just leave it closed until someone that belongs under there comes along.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kackle ( 910159 )
      I worked on cars for decades; here are my two cents...

      I eventually realized most of the "unenjoyment" of working on cars came from the fact that they had a working design and then went and changed it the follow year (along with making things "tighter"). I wondered why there were changes, then I traced it back to our laws mandating better and better vehicular fuel economy. I think such laws are a mistake because they only focus on the MPG, not all the unintended (often polluting) consequences, like ca
    • What has happened is that oriole can make other batteries fit - ones that were not specified. So this fox is a bracket that accommodates properly some non standard batteries and makes other nonstandard batteries not fit at all.
  • Can't you see Toyota hates batteries?! I mean, they're not even hiding it anymore.
  • I used to work at a sears auto center in the late 90s about twice of week would have some dummy bring in a battery claiming its bad and the battry would show the tell tail sighs of sliding into the fender and arcing . only fo dind out when you pulled up there record they bought a battery that was half the physical size it needed to be for there car / Truck the issue was because of the sears "Satisfaction Guaranteed or your money back" policy we were obliged to swap out these batteries for direct replacement

  • I read that the problem related to the batteries being too small. Seems like a disconnect between whoever spec'ed out the batteries, and the guys designing the hold-down, and maybe using a battery supplier that did not provide batteries to spec.

    How it starts a fire is a whole 'nother question. Falls out of mount, causes a short, and sparks ignite something, like the oil leaking from the crappy valve cover gasket?

    • Starting a fire isn't a big question at all if you have a big ass 12V battery freely moving around in the engine bay. If the hood closes within a centimeter of the battery terminals and the battery retention clamp is garbage, someone going over a speed bump or a pothole with sufficient velocity could get the battery to jump up and arc on the hood, potentially setting the battery itself on fire, or any of the plastic shit anywhere in the engine bay. Or, if the battery is so loose that it could actually fal

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