GM Will Add Bidirectional Charging Capabilities To All Ultium-Based EVs (electrek.co) 73
Soon, all GM EV's on the Ultium platform will come equipped with bidirectional charging capabilities. Electrek reports: According to a release from GM this morning, the automaker has decided to roll out V2H capabilities to all of its incoming EV models, in addition to those already promised. [...] According to GM, all new EVs based upon the Ultium platform will feature bi-directional charging by model year 2026, so expect additional models beyond those above to also come equipped with the ability to power your home.
GM states its expanded V2H access will be supported by the rollout of the Ultium Home bundles previously announced, although we still do not know how much this technology is going to cost homeowners. GM says that additional details of expanded V2H technology and the specific timings of its rollout to the models mentioned above will be revealed at a later date. In the meantime, check out GM's latest sizzle reel showing off some of the incoming capabilities of its Ultium EVs, including a shadowy peek at the aforementioned Escalade IQ.
GM states its expanded V2H access will be supported by the rollout of the Ultium Home bundles previously announced, although we still do not know how much this technology is going to cost homeowners. GM says that additional details of expanded V2H technology and the specific timings of its rollout to the models mentioned above will be revealed at a later date. In the meantime, check out GM's latest sizzle reel showing off some of the incoming capabilities of its Ultium EVs, including a shadowy peek at the aforementioned Escalade IQ.
Doesn't matter (Score:1)
As long as they don't have CarPlay, they're losers.
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Now, why would anyone who can do math want to burn away their expensive EV battery lifetime by running their house off their EV instead of using some cheaper (and safer) LiFePO4 or Sodium Ion batteries dedicated for the house? I sure wouldn't, and I'll be avoiding these model year cars in the aftermarket, as they'll surely be more abused than models without V2H capability.
Why would anyone run their home off their car batteries when they can instead use LPG or natural gas?
There was a big wind storm a few years ago that knocked down power for at least a week at my house, even longer for some people. Battery electric cars would have been quite useless. After a couple days the roads were clear enough for getting trucks through to deliver LPG tanks, bring in food, installers for satellite services (did I mention phone, internet and cable was out?)
Maybe someone with a BEV could
Re:Doesn't matter (Score:4, Insightful)
From a manufacturer perspective, adding bidirectional charging makes a ton of sense. Kill your battery sooner, so that you'll need to buy a new one. From a consumer perspective: Are you guys high? Why would you kick your battery in the balls just to power up your PlayStation or whatever? Ahahaha. So silly. (The reason is obvious: people don't see in terms of long term numbers.)
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I live in an area that regularly exceeds 105 degrees in the summer, have an unreliable power company, and I have small children including an infant and a child with asthma. If my power goes out for any extended period of time, I have to leave my home. I have two Powerwalls and solar to keep the lights and AC on for a period of time, but it doesn't go indefinitely. If I can use my car's battery for emergency backup, we can survive for far longer without utility power.
It's not just AC. It's charging phones fo
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If my power goes out for any extended period of time, I have to leave my home. I have two Powerwalls and solar to keep the lights and AC on for a period of time, but it doesn't go indefinitely.
Sorry, this makes no sense from here. Powerwalls are an expensive luxury compared to PV solar panels, which do go as long as the sun is shining.
And why leave home? Is it cooler outside? You can afford Powerwalls (two!) but not insulation??
In summer without aircon, I have found myself stuck inside, until the cool of night. The idea of leaving is odd.
If I can use my car's battery for emergency backup, we can survive for far longer without utility power.
It's not just AC. It's charging phones for news updates
Survive? OK, now you are getting ridiculous. You know AC is a recent invention, right? And you don't need an EV to charge phones. My powertool
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Yes, but not many lived in climates that can get very hot and very humid at the same time. I do, and heat kills more people here than all other weather-related causes combined, and it's way worse than even here in Chicago and in most parts of the American South.
Also, people with asthma and various other health issues have much more trouble dealing with difficult weather conditions.
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Yes, but not many lived in climates that can get very hot and very humid at the same time.
Ah, that makes some sense. How much power does it take to run a de-humidifier? .. I'm seeing something like 500W for a large room.
So in an emergency situation, with grid down, a single powerwall would provide that easily while the sun is down, with plenty left for fans, lighting, fridge etc.
And when the sun gets high enough for PV, you crank up the AC.
Ironically, these people who have been among the worst contributors to global warming, will also be among the first to find their land
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I see the problem now: you're an asshole with no life experience and no functional knowledge.
Powerwalls are an expensive luxury compared to PV solar panels, which do go as long as the sun is shining.
Solar doesn't work during a power outage:
https://www.sunrun.com/go-sola... [sunrun.com]
You're a fucking idiot who has no idea how residential rooftop solar works.
And why leave home? Is it cooler outside?
Go to a hotel with working AC so my newborn baby and son with asthma don't die. Because vulnerable people die in extreme heat: https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/10... [cnn.com]
You're a fucking idiot who has no idea how the human body works.
You can afford Powerwalls (two!) but not insulation??
Two Powerwalls installed is about $17,000. The
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"Obscenity is the last resort of the inarticulate fuckwit." I mean really, you sound like petulant teenager. Control yourself and grow up.
But I'll pick through the assumption-laden, ad-hominem, 1st-world-problems whinge, to see something worth asking about.
Solar doesn't work during a power outage: ... two Powerwalls installed is about $17,000.
Basic installs don't work at all, but you said "Powerwalls and solar to keep the lights and AC on for a period of time".
So huh? Do you have a “Stand Alone” mode or not? Are you running the AC all night in a massive house with poor insulati
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Basic installs don't work at all, but you said "Powerwalls and solar to keep the lights and AC on for a period of time".
So huh? Do you have a “Stand Alone” mode or not?
Rooftop solar by itself cannot operate when the electric utility goes down. This shutdown happens at the inverter to prevent backfeeding electrical power onto the offline grid and killing workers who expect lines to no longer be energized. Backfeeding to downed power lines also risks starting fires and killing other people who happen upon them. Technically, adding a battery by itself does nothing to change the situation, but in virtually every implementation of solar+battery you get an inverter capable of i
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i recall something about NASA getting 40,000 cycles out of its satellite batteries just by reducing their maximum charge
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The theoretical life of NMC lithium battery is 2,000 cycles, but its capacity fades quickly to retain 60% when it runs over 1000 cycles;
So what you're saying is that an NMC battery retains 80% of its capacity after 2000 cycles (the standard definition of a battery lifespan), but that it will have only have 60% of its capacity after half those cycles. Make up your mind.
even the best-known Tesla NCA battery can only maintain 70% of its capacity after 3,000 cycles, while the lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery will remain 80% after 3,000 cycles.
So lets see what this means for a small-battery Tesla Model 3 that has an EPA-rated range of about 220 miles [wikipedia.org]. Front-loading the capacity loss and multiplying by 3000 cycles gives us a total car mileage of 220 miles * 70% * 3000 = 462 000 miles. Americans have an average yearl
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Most of the use cases for v2g don't really involve drawing massive amounts of power from the vehicle battery for long periods of time. If you want to have a solar system and have storage for use overnight on a regular basis, you'll want something better suited to do that, like a big LiFePO4 pack. Likewise you won't want to be juicing your car to 100% every day so you can run your AC overnight and still leave with 80% SOC in the morning -- v2g is simply not well suited for storage/arbitrage applications.
By c
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There are studies that show V2G is better for the battery. It is less stress on the battery than driving.
And V2G is a boon for the utility providers, too, because it means that they don't actually have to build out capacity to meet projected demand, as long as they can convince the state to mandate bidirectional equipment that will allow them to tap into EVs whose owners expected to be charging their vehicles overnight, but instead come out to go to work and find them drained. On the consumer side, it puts control over the number of charge/discharge cycles your EV's battery undergoes out of your hands; the uti
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On the consumer side, it puts control over the number of charge/discharge cycles your EV's battery undergoes out of your hands; the utility may pay you for the power it's sucking out of your EV, but it's not going to be paying you for the wear on the battery packs themselves.
You're making up nightmarish scenarios when in fact V2G already exists (at least in some countries [youtube.com]), allows the customers to set minimum and maximum battery levels to limit wear, allows them to set a battery level to reach in the morning (or other time) for the day's travels, are paid for the service so their electricity ends up being essentially free, and their batteries are doing just fine.
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The load that producing AC power puts on the battery is very low. Far lower than what driving puts on it. Lower than what even domestic AC charging puts on it in Europe (the US on 110V is probably about the same).
Plus the battery is very likely to last longer than the car anyway, and at the end of the car's life can be recycled. Battery repairs are becoming a thing too, where weak cells are replaced.
So a rational actor will look at this feature, realize that it can save them money on domestic energy, and pr
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"at the end of the car's life can be recycled"
that will become more expensive & difficult with the move to structural batteries
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It's something that needs to be addressed with legislation. Car batteries should be serviceable. Some already are, but not enough.
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"at the end of the car's life can be recycled" that will become more expensive & difficult with the move to structural batteries
Not necessarily [youtube.com] ;-) Also it really depends if you are talking about glued structural batteries (Tesla) or blade-style structural batteries which can be dismantled without trouble.
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It's not like they're making bank off selling replacement batteries. They're not even able to keep up with their current production much less replacements.
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"Jump Charge?" (Score:4, Interesting)
So if an eHummer driver comes upon a stranded eHummer driver, can he transfer 20% charge or whatever it takes to limp to the nearest grid charger?
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No, because doing so would be against the code. The only appropriate response is to do a burn out in front of them (ie, yelling "losers!"), or to tow them (willingly or unwillingly) to the nearest junkyard, minigolf, or Dave & Busters.
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In theory, yes, but they would need to provide a cable to connect between the two, likely with some control circuitry to make it all work. But if you have an EV like the Ford F-150 Lightning that has a 240V outlet, you could just plug in a standard mobile charger and charge the stranded vehicle.
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if you have an EV like the Ford F-150 Lightning that has a 240V outlet, you could just plug in a standard mobile charger and charge the stranded vehicle.
That would be incredibly slow. Much faster to just tow them to the nearest charging station and dump them there so they can wait around for hours charging while you go back to your own bidness.
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Depending on the vehicle you could get upto 40 miles of range per hour. Say it's 30 miles, that's two minutes a mile. If you're three miles from the charging station, then it's six minutes to charge enough to get there. Not horrible.
Of course, you really have to try to run out of charge in an EV. They do a really good job of telling you how far you can go and how far it is to the next charging station.
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In theory, yes, but they would need to provide a cable to connect between the two, likely with some control circuitry to make it all work
That’s why it’s customary to throw a big chain on it and forcibly drag the low charge vehicle as it regen brakes to fast charge on the go. Preferably with sparks.
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Hummer EV powerstation provides 6A 240V outlet and supports an EVSE on the outlet for v2v charging
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I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying its supported. The 3kw is a continuous supply number; it's not derated like you would a residential breaker. Anyway charging v2v is really for an emergency situation, so I don't really see how any of the stuff you said really matters in the first place. If you are dead in your tesla in the middle of a -9F winter day and a guy comes up in an electric hummer, the correct move is to get in the hummer and GTFO, not try to charge your freaking car, jesus.
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Do cars only go flat at -9F? Or are there other scenarios here you're ignoring?
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This can already be done with existing EVs, so it should work with Hummers too.
However, it's not ideal because the charging is AC and in the US probably limited to 100V and some low amperage. In Europe at least we get 230V/10A or better.
Breakdown companies in Europe have portable DC rapid chargers to get you to the next charging station.
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Why would you assume it's limited to 100v? First off, us voltage is a nominal 120v not 100v. Second, most homes also use 240v. Most if not every single US EV can be charged from 240v, and if they were intended to provide bi-directional power they would also output 240v.
The only case where it would be limited to 120v would be a utility outlet on an EV (not the main charge point), which would be silly to use for charging another car but still workable in an emergency. I think it's like 12-15 miles an hour w
Cost (Score:2)
I'm sure that GMAC financing will be involved. They won't be able to resist rent-seeking.
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They already give credits for putting in a charge station. I assume a bi-directional charger would cost a bit more, but not a ton. It's likely the charger will be a couple hundred dollar option and everything else will remain the same.
"V2H Capable" (Score:4, Informative)
All vehicles that have DC fast charging of any sort (essentially every EV of the modern age) are already "V2H capable" because they are able (with hardware already in the car) to bridge the main pack directly to the charge port whereupon an EVSE (Electric vehicle supply equipment) with an inverter so equipped can be cajoled to output unimaginable amounts of power. Think reverse supercharger. Yes, sir, your car is capable of delivering it's rated peak horsepower directly into the mains (appropriate power converter required).
Why haven't we already seen it? Well quite frankly it seems that the car manufactures would rather have you buy the entire concept as an overpriced integrated service that only works with "Their special equipment (TM)" instead of simply acceding to the simple idea that your car with a 400V DC battery pack and sophisticated power management system in it ought to let you plug any goddamn 400V DC thing into it that you goddamn well want to.
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Isn't capitalism efficient?
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Isn't capitalism efficient?
As if communism would be better...
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Ah yes, capitalism had to invent just-in-time manufacturing before they were finally able to achieve Soviet levels of consumer product shortages! Still waiting on those Raspberry Pis and STM32s, yall.
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> Isn't capitalism efficient?
I get where you are going, but I don't really have any desire to go there with you. I'm well entrenched in the "consumers are too stupid to own half of the shit they buy" camp. In a perfect version of capitalism, awful customer hostile products would be fiercely punished in the market. People content to eat shit sandwiches all the time are breaking the contract.
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Why haven't we already seen it?
Because you haven't looked? Ford Charge Station Pro does this and has been on the market for a while now. It also comes shipped by default for all F-150 extended range models. The dcbel R16 charger supports this. Many other companies (not owned by car companies) are bringing bidirectional chargers to market next year.
instead of simply acceding to the simple idea that your car with a 400V DC battery pack and sophisticated power management system in it ought to let you plug any goddamn 400V DC thing into it that you goddamn well want to.
Do you want to burn your house down? Or maybe leave your car completely empty in a blackout? The reason you haven't seen this is because battery management is a thing that is required to be don
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> Yes, sir, your car is capable of delivering it's rated peak horsepower directly into the mains (appropriate power converter required).
No, it is not. You even admit it yourself: "appropriate power converter required." No vehicle on the market today has the onboard hardware to deliver "the full rated horsepower" out as AC power.
You are correct that the DCFC port is a direct connection to the battery, but when you DCFC you are using substantial offboard charging equipment (located nearby, usually inside a
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No, it is not. You even admit it yourself: "appropriate power converter required." No vehicle on the market today has the onboard hardware to deliver "the full rated horsepower" out as AC power.
Which is sad because every EV on the market today has 90% of the necessary hardware. They have an inverter, to drive the motor. It can deliver battery voltage, or any voltage less than that, so it could restrict output to the mains voltage. What's missing is basically some cabling and the sensing equipment needed for grid tie, some of which is probably already there for the purpose of managing regen.
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You're missing a lot more than just some cables.
The inverter is 3-phase, 6-phase in most EVs, possibly 9-phase. It's not suitable for single phase operation and is optimized for a highly inductive load (e.g. the traction motor).
There is no mechanism to reduce DC voltage beyond the accessory system DC-DC converter which is probably good for about 1KW... at 14v. A big deal in reducing weight and cost is not including the massive inductors that you would need, even at high frequencies, to switch DC voltages at
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It's not just law, it's safety. Pushing power onto the power lines can electrocute those working on the power lines.
Almost every electric company has a demo showing how dangerous electricity is. Part of that demo is showing what can happen if you hook a generator incorrectly.
Basically, any reasonably powerful generator, you can electr
Re: "V2H Capable" (Score:2)
You can drive each phase of the inverter separately, or for that matter, drive only one phase. It would only be a problem if there were not enough phases. As for the switch equipment, that is not in ANY of the vehicles with V2G, so bringing that up is either ignorance or an attempt at derailment.
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Flexibility sells. If it was really half so easy to do as you suggest they'd absolutely have done it.
Its about liability, and media play. They don't want someone with two first names turning themselves into a crispy critter doing something really dumb. And people do REALLY stupid things with and to cars, its like baked into the culture or something. You see those youtube videos where people extend wheel studs and stuff so they can use the wrong wheels, in such a way as all the load will now be on the stu
Why does your cell phone batteries lose significan (Score:3)
Tesla strongly considered enabling this capability. They ran user tests sometime around 2012 or 2013.
As they watched how a test group used it, they saw a large number would charge up at free (silicon valley) company provided chargera all day. Then they would use the car to power the house at night or resell to the grid⦠reserving only enough to get back to work the next day. It was free energy after all, right?
The problem was cycling a battery from full to empty daily quickly deteriorates the cells. The 8 year warranty on Tesla batteries meant theyâ(TM)d be replacing A LOT of batteries due to this abuse. This is why newer cell phone OSs now try to limit charging to 90%, use slow charging, and even shutdown before reaching 0% - to prevent battery cycling death.
It would be a GREAT capability for emergency power outage situations, if only people werenâ(TM)t short sighted and stupid.
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they saw a large number would charge up at free (silicon valley) company provided chargera all day. Then they would use the car to power the house at night
A legit problem, but the solution seems trivial. Put limits on free electricity, and how many cycles are covered by warranty. Tesla knows exactly how many kWh have been put through the batteries, so that isn't a problem. Owners can make an economically informed decision on when to draw power from the car to home. They can even have software switch automatically from grid to car at peak demand/price times, and recharge when power is cheaper, so savings more than cover battery depreciation. Will save money
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Yes it is easy to solve. VW limit it's cars to 4000 hours / 10000 kWh V2L, which would be plenty for me as a battery backup. It won't really interfere too much with the house battery solutions as those have been rated to 6000 cycles(depending on brand) so If you have just a 12kWh home battery, that would be 7 times more kWh drawn from that in its lifetime.
I don't have power outages often enough to warrant a backup solution but, I would definitely consider it as an option for my next electric car. If I had b
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A legit problem, but the solution seems trivial. Put limits on free electricity, and how many cycles are covered by warranty.
Now take proposals like California's plan to require EVs to have bidirectional charging circuits so that vehicles plugged in for charging can be tapped by the utilities to cover capacity shortfalls, such as on windless nights when the vaunted 'green' wind and solar aren't producing, and pull it back into the power grid to avoid brownouts. Suddenly the number of cycles your EV's battery undergoes isn't under your control any more, and in a region with particularly volatile power production, you can find your
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- and the utility company is paying you only for the power they take, not for the wear on your battery pack.
Well that would be silly. But silly proposals come up all the time, and never see the light of day.
Mandating the "bidirectional charging circuits" makes sense, but there is absolutely no need to mandate people connecting. I think you are fear-mongering, which has become far too common in US politics.
I'm sure you could see a way for people to be offered utility plans, which include generous night-time export tariffs, and benefit both parties.
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Long before Tesla started testing it, Nissan was selling it as a product in Japan. They were also doing free charging at the time, although the Leaf only had about 21kWh of usable battery so abuse wasn't such a big deal.
There were also trials in the UK using Leafs (because CCS at the time didn't support it and the Leaf is CHAdeMO). They worked out reasonably well, but the up-front cost of the equipment made it uneconomical for mass deployment. Now that prices have come down, and home inverters are starting
how much? (Score:2)
How much will this standard feature add to the sticker price?