Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Hardware

Water-Soluble Circuit Boards Could Cut Carbon Footprints By 60 Percent (engadget.com) 108

Posted by BeauHD from the e-waste-game-changer dept.
German semiconductor maker Infineon Technologies AG announced that it's producing a printed circuit board (PCB) that dissolves in water. Engadget reports: Jiva's biodegradable PCB is made from natural fibers and a halogen-free polymer with a much lower carbon footprint than traditional boards made with fiberglass composites. A 2022 study by the University of Washington College of Engineering and Microsoft Research saw the team create an Earth-friendly mouse using a Soluboard PCB as its core. The researchers found that the Soluboard dissolved in hot water in under six minutes. However, it can take several hours to break down at room temperature.

In addition to dissolving the PCB fibers, the process makes it easier to retrieve the valuable metals attached to it. âoeAfter [it dissolves], we're left with the chips and circuit traces which we can filter out,â said UW assistant professor Vikram Iyer, who worked on the mouse project. The video [here] shows the Soluboard dissolving in a frying pan with boiling water. "Adopting a water-based recycling process could lead to higher yields in the recovery of valuable metals," said Jonathan Swanston, CEO and co-founder of Jiva Materials. Jiva says the board has a 60 percent smaller carbon footprint than traditional PCBs -- specifically, it can save 10.5 kg of carbon and 620 g of plastic per square meter of PCB.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Water-Soluble Circuit Boards Could Cut Carbon Footprints By 60 Percent More

Water-Soluble Circuit Boards Could Cut Carbon Footprints By 60 Percent

Comments Filter:

  • The big question (Score:5, Insightful)

    by codebase7 ( 9682010 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:12AM (#63730606)
    Did the eco-friendly study also take into account the environmental costs of the additional waterproofing for all of these devices?

    - OR -

    Did they see increased revenue from now mandatory replacements due to the inability to repair the devices after they get wet, and not care about the environmental costs of needing to provide such large numbers of additional units as replacements?

    I ask because it's not addressed in the article, and most of the web page seems to be the usual corporate green-washing fluff. Focused more on leadership, investors, and big promises than any actual data.
    • I'm sure engineers can come up with ways to waterproof housings. This can be a valid design choice in many applications. I don't know how well it would do on a 20GHz spectrum analyzer, though. It's definitely not going to replace everything, but they are not claiming that either.

      • Re:The big question (Score:4, Interesting)

        by edis ( 266347 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @05:29AM (#63730840) Journal

        Will they stop all the humidity around? I have enough of aluminum utilities which did not stand corrosion long-term, and had to be disposed.

        • Nonsense. Loads of electronic gadgets are never exposed to that amount of humidity and heat. This looks promising.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by edis ( 266347 )

            Nonsense what? That aluminium does corrode? That vapor is present in the air most of the time, only that with the varying degree? That its long-term effects better not be counted-in carefully?

            As I type that, I feel that my duvet is wet to the uncomfortable feeling. Season of rain is here, and while warm, a lot of above-mentioned vapor crawled into the bedding. Similar is happening in the closest coastal neighborhood more, than elsewhere. You say, this not gonna happen with the water-sensitive substance. Of

            • I think if Al corrodes in you region, the PCB substrate is the least of your worries. Give them a chance. Pretty sure Infinion knows how to deal with electronics.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by edis ( 266347 )

                Good, I am giving a chance to Infinion and you with it.

                However, immediately you are left to deal with the rest of the issues:
                1. Is global PCB industry good to align to the new guideline, and be outputting recyclable boards?
                2. Or is this technology essentially copyright protected / handled by sole manufacturer?
                3. How wide distribution of these products gonna be to make fishing out and processing of theirs reasonable?
                4. Since pool of electronic waste gonna be common - is it viable to be on patrol to select po

    • Re: The big question (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Mogusha ( 1091607 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:01AM (#63730664)
      What most are missing is that most PCBs are not used for phones, or PCs, but are in toys, appliances, and other random crap.

      • toys, appliances, and other random crap

        Oh good. Nobody cares if toys, appliances, and other random household items are reliable and can be shared across generations.

        A "real" application that came to mind would be for, say, those stupid musical greeting cards. They are specifically meant to be thrown away after a day or two. Of course, I'd be happier if such things just didn't exist at all.

    • That was the first question which came into my mind. Not just water proofing, moisture/condensation proofing of any kind.Taking your device from a cool environment (like a car parked outside in the cold) to a warm, humid environment (like living quarters), will definitely cause condensation, which in this case will destroy any unprotected PCBs. This could be just another "oh look, if we made all of our power grid transmission lines out of superconductors, we'd save so much energy and reduce global warming".

      • Re:The big question (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Art Challenor ( 2621733 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @11:20AM (#63731568)
        So a dozen or so /.'ers thought of the possible issue of moisture in a couple of minutes and yet they assume that the researchers, who've likely spent years on this project, did not and so did not and so gave it no consideration?

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Cask Strength ( 10330323 )

          Unintended consequences happen all of the time. Everyone seemed to cheer about outlawing R-22 refrigerant because R-410a has a lower ozone impact, but R-410a acidifies under intense heat (the kind that can happen with routine airflow issues in HVAC, like a clogged filter icing up the evaporator coil). The nature of refrigerants is that we're using the dramatic phase shift from compressing and evaporating which causes what we call superheating and subcooling. Since the refrigerant is already prone to acid

          • Wonder if this is what happened to neighbors (and my) AC's. Both of us had condenser fan motor failures and so caused an overheat of the unit. Both of us ended up replacing the units within 2 years due to leaks. We both replaced the fan motor initially and the system worked but maybe the overheat caused the small leak. It is sort of my rant with ECM motors. Yes you save a bit on juice, but I have had a blower and fan motor fail (both ECM and both less than 5 years old) and neighbors ECM blower failed. Anoth
          • I think you're missing the point. One person (or more), after reasonable study, whether an expert or just inquisitive, can, and have, identified problems with ideas and theories that were missed by the original experts and designers. (I assume that someone was objecting to R-410a for the reason you identify before it came into widespread use but was ignored).

            If 20+ non-experts, in under 2 minutes, isolate what they think is a problem, there is a very little chance that has not already been considered.
        • Yes, it's shocking I know. Remember when a space shuttle blew up due to a similar entirely predictable failure? This happens all the time.
          • Yep, there's no problem that can't be solved by simply posting it to the Internet and following the comprehensive, well reasoned advice of the commentators. Why do all these bad things happen in the world when the solution is so simple?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by ljw1004 ( 764174 )

      Did the eco-friendly study also take into account the environmental costs of the additional waterproofing for all of these devices?

      Did you read the article? It takes hours in boiling water to degrade.

      • Re:The big question (Score:4, Informative)

        by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @07:41AM (#63731012) Homepage Journal

        Did you read the article? It takes hours in boiling water to degrade.

        It appears maybe you didn't read clearly enough.

        It said it could dissolve in 6 minutes in boiling water, several hours in room temp.

        So, you spill a drink on your electronic doo-dad...and over the next few hours it starts to slowly decompose and stop working...great.

        How about high humidity? Maybe over a few days when you take it out of the package, it starts to malfunction.

        Unless you plan to go overboard and make ALL housings for all electronics completely waterproof, this isn't really a great idea for the real world.

        I'm guessing the extremes they'd have to do to waterproof everything would more than offset the "carbon savings" of these new dissolvable PCB's....

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Megane ( 129182 )
        TFS says "hot water". If you're going to call people out for not reading the article, you should at least get the summary right yourself. And you're stupid if you think it won't degrade slower in less wet/warm conditions than bath water. You're also stupid if you don't consider that computers need heat sinks for a reason.

    • Re: The big question (Score:4, Informative)

      by chill ( 34294 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @06:40AM (#63730916) Journal

      Are you telling me their FAQ does not fill your soul with confidence?

      Is Soluboard susceptible to moisture?
      Jiva is in the process of ensuring that Soluboard is compatible with aqueous PCB fabrication processes. Jiva is also engineering Soluboard to be resistant to high humidity environments.

    • I have a friend who used to work with Nokia's manufacturing engineering group, water ingress into cell phone PCBs was a constant problem. Modern devices are more water-resistant but I still would trust this type of PCB in any device near a source of moisture.
    • Waterproofing is not a big issue. These boards only dissolve after 30 minutes in water at 90C. Getting rained on, getting a drink spilled on them, or falling into a lake is not going to dissolve them.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        Waterproofing is not a big issue. These boards only dissolve after 30 minutes in water at 90C. Getting rained on, getting a drink spilled on them, or falling into a lake is not going to dissolve them.

        You do realize that's not a hard environment to make, right? Your PC can get plenty hot by itself, and other power electronics can easily get that hot or hotter.

        You walk in from the rain, your PC is slightly wet, and then you crank up a game. Well, you have a damn PC and it's getting hot.

        And the material might

      • I know we don't read the article here on Slashdot, but you didn't even read the summary. It says that it takes several hours to dissolve at room temperature.

    • Did they see increased revenue from now mandatory replacements due to the inability to repair the devices after they get wet>/quote> It's not just getting wet as in a splash, immersion, etc. What about atmospheric humidity? A steamy bathroom after a shower? Do the latter contribute to a degradation of the PCB?

    • Yes, because current devices with circuit boards do so well when dunked in water...

    • Did the eco-friendly study also take into account the environmental costs of the additional waterproofing for all of these devices?

      How often do you immerse your computer in water for several minutes, much less several hours?

      Electronic devices now typically have good enough waterproofing to prevent water getting into your device at all in typical use scenarios, because they don't work now if the electronics gets wet.

      How often do you get you laptop so wet that it must be dried out to resume working? Never? Then you are opining about a non-real problem.

      Generally immersing a piece of electronics in water at all is a pretty extraordinary,

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Reziac ( 43301 ) *

      And what about the water that's now full of whatever chemicals were in the PCB??

      Someone mentioned toys... so, no more washing your kids' grubby toys??

  • Why stop at PCBs? (Score:5, Funny)

    by rta ( 559125 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:26AM (#63730624)

    60 percent reduction in carbon footprint is no joke!

    Seeing as that's the most important metric of any product or process, i hope they bring their innovative material to other industries too: roofing, paving, maybe even plumbing. I can't wait!

    • We've had the technology in the underwear industry for many years.

      • Yes, edible underwear. Why not make the PCBs edible? Solve climate change and world hunger with one stroke!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by pjt33 ( 739471 )

      There are other relevant metrics too. For example, this would be a definite improvement over the old plumbing in my building with respect to the quantity of asbestos it contains...

    • 60 percent is only when first installed. Eventually, 100%.

    • Clothing. Not only will you have clothing that degrades on rainy days, it will also degrade on hot, sweaty days. And, of course, sooner or later, somebody will use it to make swimwear, with interesting results.

  • Wow, I've dropped my phone in a puddle, so I have "several hours" to transfer all my data to a new phone. If I have the money to hand, and am near a shop.

    Seriously, this looks like aggressive planned obsolescence, not anything green.

    • Re:This is a misplaced April Fool, isn't it? (Score:4, Funny)

      by bloodhawk ( 813939 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:38AM (#63730640)
      If you plan to leave your phone in the puddle for several hours and it inside the case your phone is fucked either way.

    • Maybe you missed it but phones have been dunk-proof for several years.

      Do they keep humidity out? I'm not sure but it could probably be added.

    • I've recovered my cell phone from a short dunk in the ocean (in a pocket, was accidentally dunked, took it home, redunked in filtered water + alcohol + thoroughly dried.

      As well -- how many times have I recovered a mouse or keyboard from a spill followed by a cleaning....

      Sounds like that would be considerably less likely. *ouch*

      The trade-off may be worth it, but still...*arg*.

      What about erosion due to water vapor (humidity) in air? If it slightly condenses due to
      temperature changes? Hmmmm

  • Yes, the PCB is able to be dissolved out... perhaps a PVA type of material, similar to FDM dissolvable filaments. However, with a lot of PCBs, you want them to be reliable and last as long as possible, because replacing them is just too difficult a task.

    I just don't see a place for this PCB, because even if the PCB is gone, there are still solder traces, components, and a lot of other stuff which is e-waste. Especially keyboards or mice, because $DEITY knows what hell those things go through on a day to d

    • Re:Not sure the gain for this... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @07:25AM (#63730968)

      > I just don't see a place for this PCB

      Maybe you're not thinking hard enough. First up, if it takes less carbon to make it in the first place, then it's good. It's unlikely to be as long-term stable as fibreglass, so probably won't fit all use-cases, but "cheap crap" could definitely use it - all the stuff that was never going to last in the first place - toys, games, novelties etc.

      As for leaving the traces and chips behind - that's sort of the point. The traces probably aren't terribly recyclable, but at least you could separate them from everything else and dispose of them separately (unless they're decent copper traces, in which case you definitely can do something with them). If there are any gold contacts anywhere on the board, then obviously you'd be able to extract that pretty easily. The chips would come off too - without overly heating them. There's a chance you could even re-use those chips if you wanted. If not, then you can divide them out by type and recycle or dispose of them separately.

      As with everything, it's not a solution to every problem, but it is a solution to some problems - and as such, it helps get us to our environmental goals, at least by some amount. Not trying is the only way to guarantee failure though.

  • Taking planned obsolescence to a new level (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @02:55AM (#63730658)

    New part of the EULA: Warranty void if used in tropical areas (because in the humidity there, the PCB probably dissolves before the 2 year warranty period is over).

    • Tropical areas? How about "must be transported and used in temperature and humidity controlled environment, or warranty is voided". Perhaps humidity stickers built into the circuit boards, "if it changes color, warranty is void".

      • And rest assured that it will come in enough plastic wrapping to ensure it stays dry until you open it so the time can start ticking the second you take it out of the box.

        Humidity controlled? Hell, anything but "Sahara desert" humidity levels will probably sooner or later kill this. That's probably also the plan.

        My only hope is that they'll try to greenwash their crap and put huge "biodegradable PCB inside" stickers on it so you can avoid it.

  • Or using this in the tropics.

  • IP68 rating: (Score:4, Funny)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @03:18AM (#63730694)

    Zero.

  • Don’t spill your coffee on it (Score:4, Interesting)

    by LondoMollari ( 172563 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @04:04AM (#63730722) Homepage

    Not only can we have disappearing tech, but it disappears when you spill your coffee or soda on it! Well, maybe not, but even slight exposure, without the acceleration provided by heat, will cause warping over time. And it may poison water ways as fish are extremely susceptible to many foreign pollutants.

  • They'll melt in your mouth... not in your hand

  • We need independent scientific boards that determine the eco-balance of all that we aquire and consume and that cost has to be priced in as an extra tax. Re-evaluate and redetermine every 18-24 months, update the rank list and adjust eco tax based on recent developments.
    This is the only way modern society will get an eco turnaround going on a large global and sustainable scale.

    If that happens and a circuit board is super poisonous I'm production ( which, IIRC they are) and their price goes through the roof

  • But how durable? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by SuperDre ( 982372 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @04:34AM (#63730776) Homepage

    But how durable is that PCB board? How long before it gets brittle and does not work anymore. I have controllers/mice/keyboards from 30 years ago (good old commodore 64/amiga/atari console/NES/etc) that still work fine, but I have a feeling these water soluble PCB's won't work for many years, let alone if they are kept in a humid environment like Miami.
    So this might be fine for devices which are only used for a small period of time (maybe medical devices for instance), but I doubt it will be good for devices that you normally use for many years.
    And ofcourse what other already suggested, what happens when a cup of coffee spills on it (like keyboad or mice).

    • Re:But how durable? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by chas.williams ( 6256556 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @06:23AM (#63730890)
      I suspect these boards, being soluble in water, will absorb water more than traditional PCB materials. I suspect that will hurt the board's performance at high frequency. Even at low frequencies, that is likely to result in leakage paths or even galvanic activity.

    • But how durable is that PCB board? How long before it gets brittle and does not work anymore. I have controllers/mice/keyboards from 30 years ago (good old commodore 64/amiga/atari console/NES/etc) that still work fine, but I have a feeling these water soluble PCB's won't work for many years, let alone if they are kept in a humid environment like Miami.

      For the moment, let's ignore the fact that our current economy is explicitly predicated on rapid planned obsolescence. Let's instead ask "how many people are there who would still use those old computers and gaming consoles in preference to what's available today?".

      Sure, there are a few; but most people wouldn't even consider using old digital tech in place of modern devices. Durability is a supply-side issue which works against the short-term best interests of corporations. And corporations primarily chase

  • ...a water-soluble beowulf cluster!

  • wasn't PCB contamination of ground water a big problem a few decades ago?

    • That PCB was poly-chlorinated biphenyls: transformer and capacitor oil. Another association to "PCB" is groundwater contamination from trichloroethane, formerly used for post-solder cleaning of printed circuit boards as well as for automotive and industrial degreasing.
    • PloyChlorinatedBiphenyls were evil.

  • We already accepted CO2 as something to be afraid of, something polluting our environment.

    Dihydrogen monoxide is the logical next step, an enemy we should fight! Because it will destroy our iPhones and Macs if given time!

  • Right now I take my PC out and dunk it in my pool to clean out the dust, then run furmark to dry it out. WTF am I supposed to do if the PCB will dissolve now.

  • No more water wash -- we go back to TCE? (Score:3)

    by kd3bj ( 733314 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @08:49AM (#63731204) Homepage

    The industry did a lot of work to transition away from harmful trichloroethylene as a PCB wash solvent -- switching to water wash, requiring all parts to be water tolerant. Now the boards are water soluble, what do we use to wash with?

  • If it gets Linus from LTT to stop using stupid, leaking, jank water cooling setups then I'm all for it. Oh, wait, condensation. Yeah, that's stupid. Don't do that.
  • So I did a bunch of engineering to make my PCBs survive the harsh conditions they work in for a period of over 10 years reliably. Including a conformal coating layer. This is like the opposite. I don't get it. But at least you can spot the greenie nutjobs because they usually have green or purple hair and smell bad.
  • If it can absorb water, it will do so, even if very slowly.
    Humidity and heat will only make it worse.
    The boards will swell and components will fail.

    It's a great idea right up there with exposed bare electrical wiring in a hydrogen lift vehicle...
    (Think Hindenburg)
  • This will work really well in coastal Florida where it's like 90% humidity almost the entire year.

  • I have seen that movie before (Score:3)

    by sinij ( 911942 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2023 @11:20AM (#63731564)
    One of my cars had biodegradable wiring harness. If not for lawsuits and resulting extended warranty from the manufacturer, the otherwise working car would have been a write-off, as the entire car had to be rewired to replace it.
  • So if it dissolves in a few hours at room temp, how much does it dissolve at 70% humidity? Is it years or months? Because it will fall apart. It's also not that structural. I'm also doubting that you could use this for high speed signals.
  • But for finer pitch boards, (say 3mil traces or BGA's) I can say just by looking at the surface roughness of the PCB that this material won't work. FR4 is smooth, you also have to have very smooth layers to stack boards, some of the layers of FR4 are only 6 thousandths of an inch thick, a standard PCB is 64 mil thick so if you need to stack up several layers the bumps prohibit stacking. You might be able to do a 2 or 4 layer board.

  • Just what we need in Florida!
    "Honey, my phone just dissolved!"
    "Well babe, don't drop it in the pool again."

  • Good. This is good news. I hope that this technology is applicable in a way that can help reduce production pollution and enhance recycling opportunities where it can. Would this be used in a rugged IoT box outdoors? No. Could it be used in datacenters and for a number of other things? yes.

    Backseat skepticism dressed as engineer brainstorming is just close-minded culture at work. Y'all sound like my dad who can't wrap his head around electric vehicles because "people will get stranded" as if being able to c

    • There are legitimate concerns about this tech and you cannot write them off because you never "need to cross southwest the desert". I'd always take a more durable product versus one that has an (alleged) initial lower footprint but likely needs replacement sooner. People that buy a V6 that will last them a minimum of 20 years and possibly into the 30s, are greener than who leases an electric car and replaces it every three years. Leaving the infamous but classic Slashdot car analogy, datacenters are the las

      • Thinking that leasing vs. buying a car has anything to do with its longevity is a huge fallacy. Cars don't go to the junkyard after a lease.

        >it'd be crazy to use materials that dissolve

        Lots of things dissolve, given the right conditions. Again, in a slashdot conversation, I will assume that the researchers working on this full time have considered humidity and failure rates, and that manufacturers of such tech would have to provide that information to concerned customers.

        Datacenters have highly controlle

  • This is a circuitous way of water boarding.
  • Is it just me or did that time lapse video show a PCB not dissolving?
  • Decades ago, Mercedes put bio-degradable material in their electrical wiring.
    These models "died" sooner than they would have otherwise and Mercedes stopped providing parts for these models. Even still, people have these models that would continue running if the electrical wiring were traditional. Many of these models suffered pre-mature trips to repair shops on the way to the junkyard.
    "Think of the Children" & "Protect the Environment" was the cry! But now Mercedes owners are hosed.

    Bet this happen

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by ebvwfbw ( 864834 )

      I hadn't heard about Mercedes doing the Soy wire bit. Toyota did and their cars are famous for critters in the car. Some of their cars if you get into them you get this moist stuff on you. Sometimes droplets. That's mouse urine. They're in the headliner. Honda did the same thing, ditto lexus, and the other jap brands. I think some American companies did it for a short time.

      Environmentalists have a long history of causing failures. From the Challenger disaster when they made NASA switch from CFCs in the foam

Slashdot Top Deals

We must believe that it is the darkest before the dawn of a beautiful new world. We will see it when we believe it. -- Saul Alinsky

Close