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Earth Power United States

Could Safer, Cheaper Modular Nuclear Plants Reshape Coal Country? (msn.com) 345

"No massive cooling towers, miles of concrete, expansive evacuation zones," writes the Washington Post, describing modular nuclear reactors instead as "space-age plants that can be small enough to fit in a large backyard," using "downsized" reactors like the ones on nuclear-powered submarines.

And America's coal country "is a ripe target for this experiment, with infrastructure that can be repurposed, capable workforces and communities eager to reclaim prominence in the energy economy." More than 300 retired and operating coal plants in the United States are good candidates for a nuclear conversion, according to a recent Department of Energy report that has touched off a frenzy of activity. Communities that previously rejected nuclear power as unsafe or a threat to the coal industry are now clamoring to be a part of what might be branded nuclear 2.0. "See that hilltop over there?" said Michael Hatfield, a former coal company engineer who is now the administrator for Wise County [in Virginia]. "If you put a nuclear plant someplace like that, it is not going to be near anybody's backyard. This would keep us in the forefront of the energy business. We see it as our future...."

It was only a year ago that nuclear power was banned in West Virginia, under a state law intended to protect the coal industry. The state is among several to either lift such a ban or pass a law encouraging development of small nuclear reactors over the last few years. Political leaders see opportunities to boost regional economies and to get a piece of the billions of dollars in subsidies for generating "advanced nuclear" power available through the recently enacted Inflation Reduction Act.... Virginia is among at least eight states pursuing a small reactor. At least another eight have launched feasibility studies, according to federal energy officials.

And back in Washington D.C. there's also high hopes for the technology: U.S. climate envoy John F. Kerry said in a recent interview with The Post that the technology's success is vital for meeting the world's goal of avoiding the most catastrophic fallout from climate change by limiting warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius.

"I don't think we get there without it," Kerry said.

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Could Safer, Cheaper Modular Nuclear Plants Reshape Coal Country?

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  • by Mr0bvious ( 968303 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @03:42AM (#63307599)

    Who knows.

    But small safer, cheaper modular nuclear plants are certainly a good idea.

    • by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @05:16AM (#63307709)

      Senator Joe Manchin ("D" - WV) is for it -- as long as those nuclear plants burn coal. :-)

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) are not a good idea. They have most of the same problems as full size reactors, only now you have many more units to worry about.

      They produce more nuclear waste than larger reactors, and need refuelling more often. They still need large pools of water for cooling and storage of spent fuel. You still need all the same geological and metrological surveys, the same site security. More so, if anything, as you have many more reactors to protect. Of course, the heat needs to be turne

      • There modularity might make them a better fit for the swings in power demand that large nuclear doesn't handle very well, however.

        Large nuclear as a baseline for the normal powerloads works as well as Dams, but peak demand is usually handled by spinning up a generator that burns fuel, either coal or Natural Gas for the most part.

        If you can trade that for smaller nuclear with batteries to save the power not used during the non peak usage times, you could better match the need and use the batteries when peak

      • by serviscope_minor ( 664417 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @06:27AM (#63307803) Journal

        If you're going to be anti-nuclear, you should do it on the merits of the claims.

        The only advantage is that they can be built on an assembly line, which is a bit quicker and cheaper. They produce less power though, so it's likely that any savings will be offset by needing many more of them.

        Whether you're pro or anti nuclear you must surely recognise this is a daft claim. You're arguing that assembly line production of identical units is no better than bespoke, one off projects. We have over 200 years of history pointing towards increasing levels of standardisation and repetition being a very good way to improve efficiencies of manufacturing.

        On to the nuclear specific stuff, I don't think your claims substantially hold up there either. The Rolls Royce SMR is designed for 470MWe, compared to the ACGR's output power of 660MWe. It's a bit of a stretch to call 1.4 times more, "many". Second, nothing stops you putting 1.4 times as many on the same site, so it's not like you need 1.4x the security. Also, they're a lot more compact, so you could likely fit more power onto the same site than in the UK's current nuclear fleet.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @08:07AM (#63307967) Homepage Journal

          I should have also pointed out that the RR SMR only exists on paper at the moment. It's questionable if it counts as an SMR. NuScale, who are much closer to having a prototype, are claiming 77MWe output. They also claim their reactors require 1% of the space of a traditional reactor, but that's obvious marketing BS.

        • We have over 200 years of history pointing towards increasing levels of standardisation and repetition being a very good way to improve efficiencies of manufacturing.

          Production lines also improve quality and reduce lead time. Better, faster, cheaper, pick three.

      • by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @07:27AM (#63307873) Journal
        The frequency for refueling depends on the design. Some SMR designs have a projected 35 year lifespan, and are fueled only once, during manufacture. They can be built with closed loop cooling, and in general have a far smaller need for feedwater. Building them as a single unit (including the turbine and generator) makes for easier installation, and they could even be buried to protect them from human or environmental interference. You could stick one under your garden.

        Still, so far those are only promises. There are a number of companies working on this, with widely varying designs, but AFAIK no units in production or even prototypes exist. Little is yet know about the cost to manufacture, run, and decommission these reactors. They might make sense for some applications like remote areas, but for replacing existing gas and coal plants, scaling up seems more sensible.
        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          As you say, there are lots of paper designs for theoretical reactors. The only people even close to producing a prototype are NuScale, and their one requires refuelling every few years.

          I don't think any of them could be buried though. At least none of the serious ones that produce useful amounts of energy. Maybe some kind of RTE, but those aren't going to help with our energy grid emissions. The NuScale ones, at 77MWe, require a cooling pool.

      • by e3m4n ( 947977 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @07:45AM (#63307905)
        The small reactors I ran onboard surface ships and submarines only ever got refueled 1 time during their lifecycle. Thats to say I only was stationed at one refueling. Most other assignments were still running their original core. The USS Carl Vinson (CVN-70) is still operating on its second cores I believe. Its been a while. If you dont live in the mountainous region of WV you are probably unaware of the geographical limitations they have. Or what a "hollar" is. No room for wind or solar and some of those hollars get limited sun exposure due to the mountains on 3 sides. Lastly it also plays by into job creation. Nuclear will require more jobs, hence why the argument solar and wind is cheaper. The more people stuck without a job, or stuck doing jobs they really hate (door dash etc), the more unrest a region has. You want complacent employees happily drinking beer and watching sports games. Not forming militia or protest groups. Ideally.
        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Military reactors, cost not a factor, surrounded by water for cooling. Different safety rules due to national security. Not commercially viable.

          • Thats a different argument though. We were discussing having to refuel. Im sure by now thats not an issue. Our 1970s navy designs lasted that long. Surely in 2020 these modular ones also dont need refueling. Cooling, cost, and manpower, are separate topics. The cost due to manpower is often deemed acceptable simply because of the socioeconomic benefits it brings.
            • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              The naval ones use highly enriched fuel, which civilian ones do not have access to due to proliferation issues.

              • Thats not true. At least, in terms of the word highly, they could not be repurposed into weapons grade material. A higher enrichment doesnt get you longer life it gets you hotter temperatures. You donâ(TM)t want to have to absorb a bunch of extra neutrons with your control rods. The idea is there enough neutrons go on to create new reactions to maintain steady state in reactor terms. This is when we declare the reactor is critical. In fact, the geometrical layout of the fuel is a dispersion process
              • The naval ones use highly enriched fuel, which civilian ones do not have access to due to proliferation issues.

                Umm, no.

                While a Naval reactor uses more enriched fuel than your average civilian plant, this is irrelevant to "proliferation issues" since we make nuclear weapons with plutonium, NOT Uranium (which is what is used for fuel in a Navy Reactor (or civilian reactor, for that matter)). Do try to remember that the Hiroshima bomb is the only uranium atomic weapon ever built (and it was large, heavy and l

                • The reactor may start with just Uranium fuel, but you will eventually end up with some amount of Plutonium. Any time you are dealing with Uranium fuel, you will need to deal with the presence of Plutonium in that fuel eventually, whether the fuel is enriched or not, because Plutonium is an unavoidable actinide that results from the reaction. Granted, the amount of Plutonium that comes out of civilian reactors is minuscule in comparison to breeder reactors used to create weapons-grade fissile materials - it
      • The only advantage is that they can be built on an assembly line, which is a bit quicker and cheaper.

        I wouldn't minimize this. We don't know how this will play out but "a bit" might be "10% of the cost". Things get dramatically cheaper when produced in bulk with repeatable (and optimized) processes. Not to mention quality tends to skyrocket.

        Just compare the production and operation cost of SpaceX's Raptor engines versus the RS-25s used by the Space Shuttle.

      • by hey! ( 33014 )

        The nuclear waste issue depends on design. "SMR" means *any* small design that can be built in a modular fashion, and not all designs perform the same in this area. A recent study of three prominent designs by Argonne (source [anl.gov]) found that each produced different kinds of waste in different quantities. Designs that use higher levels of enrichment produce more depleted uranium from fuel processing; designs with higher fuel burn up produce less spent nuclear fuel. But overall none of the designs examine seem de

    • by Sique ( 173459 )

      But small safer, cheaper modular nuclear plants are certainly a good idea.

      I am not sure about that. You could also read the sentence as "distributing nuclear materials to people you can't control." How many militant groups will try to acquire one or two of the modular reactors just as building blocks for their own nuclear bomb? We had Timothy McVeigh blowing up 165 people just with fertilizer and racing additives. What would he have done with the materials to power a atomic reactor?

      • He wouldâ(TM)ve at worst irradiated himself, at best he would have learned something and become a productive member of society. Building a nuclear bomb is not something you do in an afternoon in your basement, it takes years of learning, testing and scientific progress. Anyone patient enough to build one would have time to put things in perspective as they got older.

        • by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @07:59AM (#63307947)

          Building a nuclear bomb is not something you do in an afternoon in your basement

          Never heard of a dirty bomb, have you? Get half a pound of nuclear waste material and detonate it with convential explosives and you've contaminated, and irradiated, a large area for minimal cost. Want to really cause havoc? Do it at ********* when it's busy.*

          * Censored due to possibilty of investigation by various three letter agencies, though they should already know about this.

        • The entire point to us embargoing Iran for getting their hands on specifically designed aluminum tubes of an exact geometry was that they were trying to centrifuge enrich reactor grade uranium into weapon grade. Nobody has the ability for this in their back yard. When Israel announced in the 80s they had this ability they, as a nation, could only build one bomb every couple years. Thats a shit ton more resources than some guy in his back yard.
      • by Chas ( 5144 )

        Simply because something is "nuclear material" doesn't mean it's something that is, or can be made into bomb-grade material.

      • Thats complete nonsense. At best you could make a dirty bomb. If it was that easy dont you think Iran would have one by now? You are armchair quarterbacking a soccer game based entirely on your knowledge of croquet. You dont just stuff a bunch low enriched uranium in a container and light a fuse. Even &fat man& was significantly more complicated than that.
      • I am not sure about that. You could also read the sentence as "distributing nuclear materials to people you can't control."

        How the hell did you read it like that? The small modular reactors would be used just like the regular big reactors. They won't give them out with Happy Meals.

        • by Sique ( 173459 )
          Then what's the point in having them, if not for decentralizing nuclear power plants and put small ones everywhere?

          If, in the end, you concentrate them at a few, heavily watched areas, then you can go all in and build a big one.

          The whole charm and also the inherent danger with nuclear fuel is that it concentrates magnitudes more energy in the same place compared to chemical energy. But magnitudes more energy concentration also means magnitudes more devastation if you manage to blow it up. The hard limit

          • Then what's the point in having them, if not for decentralizing nuclear power plants and put small ones everywhere?

            If, in the end, you concentrate them at a few, heavily watched areas, then you can go all in and build a big one.

            The point is that building a giant, 1-2GW reactor is very expensive since it's usually a one-off project and requires a lot of very specialized and expensive equipment.

            When they're smaller, you can build them in a factory where the manufacturing process improves with each one, and they can be installed and brought online, and thus start generating electricity and money, much sooner.

            You can see NuScale's pitch here [nuscalepower.com]. It's not about putting a reactor in your backyard. Of course whether or not all this works ou

    • Solar power has dropped radically in price over the last 20 years. So according to that logic is must have sacrificed either safety or efficiency. Which is it?
  • by jsonn ( 792303 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @04:08AM (#63307627)
    So, how are they supposed to be cooled? Just because you make them "modular" doesn't change the elementary physics and the biggest problem of any thermal power plant is always getting rid of the heat...
  • by Canberra1 ( 3475749 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @04:13AM (#63307633)
    Coal is slightly radioactive. They burn a hell of a lot of it. The stuff that makes it past the chimney scrubbers means mild radioactive fallout - subject to prevailing winds. Now if a coal plant has burnt lots of coal for 50 years or more - mildly radioactive surrounds. So it makes a great deal of sense and very green to convert/replace furnaces with Nuclear ones, and use steam to drive the existing coal or diesel alternators. You should also keep one coal mine operating to back up the nuclear plant should electricity run out. A nuclear plant should emit the same or less, so any coal burning site should get automatic EPA approval.
    • If you replace the furnaces, which is the economical/space saving decision, then there isn't any use keeping a coal mine open for it - you no longer have the ability to burn coal to generate the steam.

      It'd also be really expensive to keep all the burners for the coal system operational but not operating until something came to pass.

      Nah, it's better to just build a few standby or extra plants for the "just in case" stuff. For example, if station 1 has to go offline unexpectedly, then station 2 delays its ma

  • by GotNoRice ( 7207988 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @04:24AM (#63307649)
    Too many people fear nuclear because they've grown up hearing constantly about how "nuclear is bad!", unable to separate the concept of a nuclear power-plant from a nuclear-bomb. Others recall disasters such as Chernobyl or three-mile-island that would not be possible with modern nuclear plants. Ironically, the fear of building new nuclear plants is forcing older, more dangerous plants to remain online longer.
    • Chernobyl was a Russian military experiment gone wrong, we have known that since the 90s. The are is still livable but it was a communist secret city in the middle of nowhere, besides the plant there was nothing there to begin with but some people remained to date.

      Three Mile Island is in the middle of New York City and I donâ(TM)t see it being abandoned over radiation, people are only now leaving because governance of the city and state is atrocious.

    • I dislike nuclear because of the cost and time required to build a plant. You’re looking at a decade minimum and >$10 billion. Look at the final tally for building Watts Barr if you don’t believe me.

    • ...unable to separate the concept of a nuclear power-plant from a nuclear-bomb.

      I would be surprised if anyone had such a misconception. I think the far larger concern is the very real leakage of nuclear waste from its containers into the surrounding landscape and water supplies. Despite the claims of nuclear waste disposal being a solved problem, leakages of still highly radioactive materials still happen. So it's still a problem in need of a solution.

  • Ultimately that is the question. Can we give it a different name so it doesn't have the stigma of nuclear associated with it? Maybe that will get the NIMBY's to actually care.

  • by VeryFluffyBunny ( 5037285 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @04:57AM (#63307679)
    ...when people don't know how to spell nucular; n - u - c - u - l - a - r.

    But yeah, loads of small nucular reactors scattered around the country maintained to the same standard as American roads, bridges, & power lines. What could go wrong?
    • ...when people don't know how to spell nucular; n - u - c - u - l - a - r. But yeah, loads of small nucular reactors scattered around the country maintained to the same standard as American roads, bridges, & power lines. What could go wrong?

      According to, you know, actual scientists and engineers, who, you know, actually designed the thing: pretty much nothing. Next question?

      • The same scientists, engineers, and bureaucrats that shipped hydrochhloric acid in bulk through Ohio, and failed to contain the spill? Or who design oil supertankers that leak? Or nuclear plants that suffer catastrophic failures and become hazard sites for years? Those scientists?

        Scientific expertise has to be handled with some caution, because science does not pay the budgets to build things as safely as conceivable.

        • by gweihir ( 88907 )

          The problem is not with Science. The problem is with scientists that are bought. The nuclear industry has only that kind, with the indoctrination starting at university.

        • That accident was 100% caused by regulations rolled back by trump and further cost saving measures by the railway company.

          https://www.cleveland.com/news... [cleveland.com]

          ECP brakes would have detected the problem and brought the cars to a stop before this catastrophe. But safety features hurt bottom lines and we certainly can’t have that.

          Mike DeWine also told Biden he didn’t need any help with cleanup.
          https://www.marketwatch.com/am... [marketwatch.com]

        • The same scientists, engineers, and bureaucrats that shipped hydrochhloric acid in bulk through Ohio, and failed to contain the spill? Or who design oil supertankers that leak? Or nuclear plants that suffer catastrophic failures and become hazard sites for years? Those scientists?

          Scientific expertise has to be handled with some caution, because science does not pay the budgets to build things as safely as conceivable.

          Since when are we allowed to doubt the Holy Scientists? I thought doing that makes you a climate denier, anitivaxxer, flat-earther and everything. Or is it only when they're saying things the leftists don't like?

      • You forgot the rather important post-modifier that I included with nucular reactors, "...maintained to the same standard as American roads, bridges, & power lines." You know, this kind of thing: https://www.npr.org/2017/08/01... [npr.org]
    • by Z80a ( 971949 )

      That's the horrible thing, even when those things go wrong, they're still not as terrible as coal power plants. It's like those generators are constant ongoing disasters that you're supposed to pretend it's fine.

  • under a state law intended to protect the coal industry.

    Politicians passing such laws should be banned or imprisoned as that's just blatant bribery by the coal industry.

    • The Washington Post article, linked here via MSN, has it backwards what happened a year ago! The linked AP story states that the ban on nuclear power plants was eliminated a year ago (and that the ban was enacted in 1996).
  • Nukes in Boyd Crowder's backyard?

  • Solar panels on the roof. Batteries in the garage and car.

    Coal and nuclear can go home.

    Now if we just had some more charging infrastructure utilizing the same thing for travel.

    • We’re going to struggle to find enough resources simply for battery vehicles, let alone bulk grid storage. Flow batteries require expensive and uncommon materials like vanadium. Hydrogen electrolysers that can be throttled to deal with intermittent solar and wind require iridium. To create a TW of electrolyser capacity would require 27 years of current production of iridium. This is a problem
      So given that we need 5000TWh to produce green steel and 10000TWh to power transport, do we need nuclear? Shit

  • by davide marney ( 231845 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @06:42AM (#63307817) Journal

    - 20 MW of electrical energy, 50 MW of heat energy.
    - Power generated continuously, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week
    - Factory-built, delivered on a flatbed
    - Needs just 0.5 acres of siting
    - Doesn't need to be sited next to water body.
    - Safe enough to install in an industrial park.

    With just four of these, you could power a small city.

    It's literally insane we aren't stepping all over ourselves to do this.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      It's literally insane we aren't stepping all over ourselves to do this.

      Actually, it is not. You see, these things do not exist and the projected numbers are a complete fabrication. Incidentally, this would be the first time nuclear tech would ever have delivered on its promise.

  • Dense, dispatch-able and safe. This is nuclears story solar and wind are bit players, cheap and diffuse however that have large environmental footprint both in materials required and land area. Offshore wind farms will make seabirds like albatrosses extinct in a decade.
    It’s a bit sad.

  • by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @07:16AM (#63307855)

    Pick any two.

  • by orzetto ( 545509 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @07:49AM (#63307913)

    So, the idea with SMR is to make many small reactors. The problem with current big ones is that they are too expensive, and making something smaller is not the way you usually go to reduce prices; but the argument is that building many identical SMRs will eventually bring the unit price down, with the point of contention being whether this can offset the loss of economies of scale.

    However there is not just the reactor that is being scaled down: there are a lot of other things that benefitted from large scale.

    • Turbines: a usual large plant is in the GW scale and certainly don't have 1000/20=50 single turbines. Turbines need to be scaled down, which will reduce efficiency, and have pretty much the same requirements in term of maintenance (i.e. people working on site).
    • Personnel: do we even have the people to run hundreds of small nuclear power stations? I don't think you can just take any unemployed minimum-wage prospective burger-flipper and put them in charge of a nuclear plant. You need to have engineers with the right education: where are you going to find these? And even if they are there, there will be a lot more per MW than in a normal plant.
    • What about waste? The "solution" in traditional plants is "just leave it there until it's our grandchildren's problem", as all , but these small units do not have their own storage pools. Who and how is going to take care of the waste?
    • Containment building: have they decided these are optional now? Shit happens and without a containment building there is a much higher chance it will turn out serious. 50 Small containment buildings will cost more than a single big one.

    I find it a dubious proposition that SMRs can be per-MW cheaper than traditional reactors, and I still have not seen a credible source (i.e. not a company brochure) claiming SMRs are any game changer.

    Browsing in Google Scholar, I found papers are quite tepid, from "[modularized] SMRs [...] could possibly compete with large reactor baseline total construction costs" (Lloyd et al. [sciencedirect.com]) and "cost effectiveness of SMR [...] is in line and of the same order with LR’s" Boarin & Ricotti [hindawi.com]. This is not sufficient: nuclear power must come down with a factor of at least 4 before it's even competitive with renewables.

    I appreciate any link to more recent or comprehensive TCO analyses of SMRs.

    • by Firethorn ( 177587 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @01:48PM (#63309007) Homepage Journal

      I have to point out that having multiple reactors doesn't mean that you also have to scale down the turbines.

      For example, take the steam: Steam is a gas. There's nothing preventing you from having, say, 50 of these reactors in parallel all feeding steam to a single turbine. Heck, you could over provision - say, have 55 reactors, but only 50 operating at a time running the turbine, with the other 5 undergoing maintenance. Or even have 2-3 turbines so you can vary output better.

      Personnel: You state "stations" here, where the article is "reactors". Nuclear power stations, even today, typically have more than 1 reactor. Now, they're huge enough that each reactor generally has their own turbine and everything else, but that isn't actually required.

      So with some automation you could have the same personnel who are watching one giant traditional reactor watch multiple small ones, as they can all be collocated. Dropping the additional personnel needed down to a minimum.

      Waste: Same deal with traditional plants actually, it's not like if you're installing a nuclear plant that digging a waste pool is all that difficult. For many SMRs though, the idea would be that the factory would have the waste pool, and the waste from the SMRs would end up in that. After 20-40 years, they'd just move the waste into above-ground casks for storage. At some point, they'd have enough waste, hopefully all standardized, that has cooled enough, that reprocessing it isn't any big deal. Or we'll have defeated the NIMBY types and gotten a practical disposal method going.

      Containment building: Actually, smaller containment buildings can be cheaper than big ones. Especially if it can be small enough to simply ship the building in in pieces rather than having to bring in specialized equipment to make pours that big on site. Still, nothing preventing them from putting multiple reactors in a single containment building. Also, meltdown is much less of a risk due to energy density being a function of volume, and passive air cooling one of surface area - meaning smaller is more easily made to self-cool without melting down.

      Also, big building with smaller reactor = less overall pressure, which means the building doesn't have to be built as heavy.

  • by v1 ( 525388 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @08:10AM (#63307973) Homepage Journal

    I suggest we deal with the states that are banning math in schools before we think about a nuclear reactor in every home. OK maybe that's a little extreme, but you get the idea... I think the common folk need more education before we start putting serious science in their basement.

    (a bit of a segway, but we also need to get away from "disposable" society and get back to our roots of repairing things - and building things to BE repairable - since you can't just throw a reactor in the trash when it breaks or gets old)

    tl;dr: it's a good idea but we're not ready for this yet.

    • a bit of a segway

      Segue is the word you are looking for kind sir. It is pronounced Segway, but is not actually a motorized auto-balancing device.

  • Doesn't mountaintop removal strip mining reshape the geography?

  • Really? Space Age? 23-skidoo!

  • I know conservatives are now pro-nuclear because liberals love solar and anything a liberal loves a conservative must automatically, irrationally hate....and they somehow feel it's a "gotcha" to make a liberal agree that nuclear is a great idea...forgetting it was their parents that were anti-nuke, not them. I'm neutral on nukes. I don't oppose them, but I also don't see that the reality matches the hype. There are few markets with greater economic incentive than clean energy. Remember...they don't have
  • Is toxic coal ash better or worse than nuclear waste?
    Let's try it out on the poor people of West Virginia.

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