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CAMM: The Future of Laptop Memory Has Arrived (pcworld.com) 94

Posted by BeauHD from the what-to-expect dept.
There's a real possibility that SODIMM memory sticks could be replaced by a new type of removable memory called CAMM. According to PC World, "Memory overseer JEDEC will formally adopt the 'CAMM Common Spec' as the next RAM module standard for laptops." From the report: JEDEC, the memory group that homologates RAM standards, is in the process of hammering out the new spec to replace the basic SO-DIMMs that have been in use for 25 years, according to JEDEC committee member, and Dell Senior Distinguished Engineer Tom Schnell. Schnell actually created the original CAMM -- or Compression Attached Memory Module -- design for Dell last year. JEDEC's CAMM standard will be based on that CAMM design but is likely to be somewhat different as companies hammer it out. "We have unanimous approval of the 0.5 spec," Schnell told PCWorld. Schnell said JEDEC is targeting the second half of the 2023 to finalize the 1.0 spec, with CAMM-based systems out by next year.

Who are the companies that voted for it? Schnell can't say, as that's up to each member to reveal, but group covers the range of suppliers, from SoC, to connectors, to OEMs, and all unanimously voted to adopt the CAMM Common Spec, with no dissenters. There are currently 332 companies listed in JEDEC, from Apple to ZTE, each involved in different aspects of memory in different industries. For those who haven't followed it, Dell introduced its CAMM design in April 2022 with the aim of replacing the decades old SO-DIMM design that has been used in most gaming and workstation laptops up to now. CAMM's main appeal is that it enables higher memory density while also scaling to ever higher clock speeds. Some of the motivation for expediency likely comes from the fast-approaching "brick wall" facing laptops when SO-DIMMs hit at DDR5/6400. Schnell said the CAMM spec is far from finalized, but the first JEDEC CAMM modules should take over right where SO-DIMM ends at 6400. [...]

With CAMM being hammered out now, Schnell did lay out some possible paths for CAMM as it replaces SO-DIMM. DDR6 is an obvious road, he said, but CAMM even enables the possibility of LPDDR6 on a replaceable module. LPDDR, or low-power DDR RAM, has long been preferred for smaller and thinner laptops as well as phones for power savings. It's also long been implemented only as soldered-on. Schnell foresees a version of CAMM enabling the performance and power benefits of LPDDR, but in a replaceable and upgradeable module. With JEDEC adopting CAMM now, that future gets closer.
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CAMM: The Future of Laptop Memory Has Arrived More

CAMM: The Future of Laptop Memory Has Arrived

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  • Have they received permission from the European Union to do this?
    • Yes, they did /s

      • Yes, they did /s

        Thnks goodness!

        It is well known that the EU has the largest and best concentration of technology experts, as sh0own by their dominance in the field, whereas all thes eothers are so resistant to following the leader, and inventors of technology.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by quenda ( 644621 )

      "permission"? I think you mean homologation.
          (Yes, i just learned that word from TFS.)

      • "permission"? I think you mean homologation. (Yes, i just learned that word from TFS.)

        I love it!

        Another word to confuse my friends. They'll think I'm talking about something kinky!

    • Why would the EU care? Normally I'd put that off as a silly Troll but I'm beginning to wonder if everything you've ever read about the EU came from the Daily Mail. There are too many stupid people who vote to not call this out.

      • He seems like someone who does not like regulation and standards and sees little value in them in things like electronic parts compatibility. I don't know if he lived in the PC era where you had to research whether or not two PC cards had to use the same DIP switch settings and would not work with each other.

  • What It Looks Like (Score:4, Informative)

    by Kunedog ( 1033226 ) on Monday January 16, 2023 @08:00PM (#63214554)
    Slightly bigger than a laptop SODIMM and (probably) only one per machine:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

    Beats having it soldered on, I guess.

    • Slightly bigger than a laptop SODIMM and (probably) only one per machine:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

      Beats having it soldered on, I guess.

      At least it's easy (relatively) to get out and not accidentally damage.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by maorb ( 2578043 )

        This is correct. At least one source I've seen says the design can scale at least up to 4 channels if needed.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by edwdig ( 47888 )

        We're not going to know that level of detail yet, but I can't imagine they wouldn't factor that in to the design.

        It looks like the CAMM design replaces the SODIMM connector with a grid array design similar to what CPUs use now. You can have a lot more connections in that space, so it should be pretty easy to put in multiple memory channels. A DDR5 SODIMM has 262 pins. Modern CPUs have 1000-2000 pins, despite having a much smaller area than a SODIMM. You can probably even put in more than 2 channels pretty e

        • Re:What It Looks Like (Score:4, Informative)

          by serviscope_minor ( 664417 ) on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:32AM (#63215936) Journal

          Also, this kind of thing can be manufactured to tighter tolerances, with a much higher connection pressure than the old style leaf spring style SODIMM connector. That means a much tighter control of the impedance over the connector, meaning better signal integrity.

          This is a long winded way of me saying there's a good chance it will support LPDDR, which means we might well get socketed RAM back for light, long battery life laptops (not for macs though).

          I for one welcome our new CAMM overlords.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by Junta ( 36770 )

          Another article states:
          "CAMM is also scalable from quad-channel to dual-channel or single-channel if needed to reach different price targets. ECC support is planned."

          So it looks like it is one per machine, rather than one per channel.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        CAMM supports quad channel memory on a single module. It also supports dual and single channel, for cost reduction.

        All DDR5 has ECC built in, but it seems that exposing that functionality to te computer is something they plan to do later.

        This should hopefully mean we get some nice Ryzen Thinkpads with socketed memory this year.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            Interesting question, and I'm not sure what the answer is. Probably advantageous from a speed perspective.

          • At this point would there be any reason for not wanting CAMM support on a desktop?

            Might be a pain in the arse to route that many pins all together for multiple sockets. Also, it's designed to lie flat which is good for laptops, but bad for desktops, from a space perspective.

            Desktops aren't nearly so power constrained as laptops, so they can run the line drivers at MUCH higher power levels meaning that the poorer quality connections of DIMM sockets compared to CAMM don't matter nearly so much. They've also g

      • That memory channels are currently divided between DIMMs is a legacy problem related to how memory was addressed on the slots that has sort of just stuck around as a standard. Parallel addressing of memory isn't affected by removing the DIMM design. Indeed dual channel memory is implemented where chips are soldered to the motherboard as well.

        CAMM scales. The modules are designed to suit single, dual, or quad channel depending on price point of the equipment. Presumably this works with a common design on the

    • If it implements LPDDR memory then for certain it will only support one per machine. Regular DDR memory operates on a memory bus where you can have two devices share a single bus. But with LPDDR memory you can only have one device. And since this will be designed around LPDDR memory - yes, only one per machine.

      FYI, this is why some previous MacBook Pros (Intel) only went up to 16 Gig of RAM while other Windows laptops would go to 32. Apple wanted the power savings gained by using LPDDR memory. But u

    • It's about twice the size of a SODIMM and most relevantly uses what, PGA for the connect? That's what it looked like anyway. So a more expensive module, and a vastly more expensive socket...

      • I had done some brief reading and saw that CAMM came in different sizes, so what I meant was that even the smallest size was "slightly bigger," which was a poor way to express that (when the only example I gave was the one in the linked video).

      • Yeah but a much better socket from an impedance matching point of view. SODIMM is too sketchy for LPDDR4, which is why we have socketed RAM. CAMM has good enough signal integrity for LPDDR, so that's a huge and meaningful improvement. Nice laptops where you can actually upgrade the RAM? Sign me up!!

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Megane ( 129182 )

        and a vastly more expensive socket...

        Watch the linked video. It's a dual-sided LGA "socket", which interposes between LGA pads on both the module and the motherboard. If you should be fumble-fingered enough to fuck one up, you can simply drop another in. If this really is the next standard, they will not only be a common part, but you can re-use one from a fried laptop too.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sirket ( 60694 )

      Soldered RAM is actually a requirement from Microsoft for Modern Standby/Connected Standby/Instant Go functionality to prevent cold boot attacks.

  • Brick Wall (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ThurstonMoore ( 605470 )

    This article is garbage, it doesn't say what the "brick wall" is.

    • Agreed, the article should have spelled out what said "brick wall" was all about.

      Remarkably, while I could find many stories that mention a limitation with SO-DIMMs, none could actually say what the nature of the limitation is.

      Finally found this - it appears that the limitation is just Dell's opinion, man...
      https://www.storagereview.com/... [storagereview.com]

      • Re:Brick Wall (Score:5, Interesting)

        by edwdig ( 47888 ) on Monday January 16, 2023 @09:30PM (#63214866)

        DDR5 seems to really push the limits of what you can get away with using current sockets and motherboard designs.

        I just built a new PC with DDR5. I went thru 2 motherboards and 6 RAM chips before I found a combination that worked with enough RAM for my needs. DDR5 can only maintain its rated speeds if you install 2 DIMMs. If you install 4, the extra resistance in the circuits requires the RAM chips to be substantially underclocked. My RAM can be clocked at 6000 if I only install DIMMs, but with 4 the system won't even post at anything faster than 3600.

        Ever wonder the secret why the Apple M1 is so much faster than anyone expected? Putting the RAM inside the CPU shortens the circuits and gives you much better connections than you can get with an external chip, enabling it to be clocked a lot faster. The CAMM design is largely about getting a better connection so we can run the chips faster.

        • Ever wonder the secret why the Apple M1 is so much faster than anyone expected? Putting the RAM inside the CPU shortens the circuits and gives you much better connections than you can get with an external chip, enabling it to be clocked a lot faster.

          That's not the reason the M1 is faster. You're right form a design point of view, but the reality is the limitation already didn't exist on previous Apple devices which already had their RAM soldered directly to the mainboard, a process which has been demonstrated running far higher speeds than the M1 Max even 5+ years ago (A 2017 era NVIDIA Tesla pushed 900GB/s compared to the M1 Max's 400GB/s, and did so with off chip memory).

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by edwdig ( 47888 )

            You've got a design that's built around the physical distance between the RAM and the CPU being as close to zero as possible and an ideal electrical connection between them.

            Nitpick the hell out of how much any one part of that matters if you want, but the combination of changes is allowing them to run their DDR5 RAM significantly faster than anybody else is pulling off with DDR5.

        • Quite a few machines only support one DIMM per memory channel, the threadripper pro for example having a glorious 8 channels. Generally though the specs are moderately controlled, so I think you have something a bit hinkey. buffered DMMS eist for larger memory stacks too.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by edwdig ( 47888 )

            I'm using a Ryzen 7950X. My issues were partly because according to the official specs, Ryzen is super fussy about what DDR5 RAM it'll accept in a 4 DIMM configuration. The other issue is both the processors and motherboard socket were brand new, so the first few revisions of the BIOS for AM5 motherboards had a bunch of bugs in DDR5 support. And the details on exactly what was supported weren't in the motherboard manual, I had to contact tech support to learn the limitations.

        • Ever wonder the secret why the Apple M1 is so much faster than anyone expected? Putting the RAM inside the CPU shortens the circuits and gives you much better connections than you can get with an external chip, enabling it to be clocked a lot faster. The CAMM design is largely about getting a better connection so we can run the chips faster.

          Not sure that is the entire reason though as the speed performance is due to multiple design choices. Having the RAM closer to the CPU helps a great deal as also having the GPU on the same die helps too. But the compromise is less upgradeability and customization.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The problem with SODIMMs is that they don't work well at the speeds of DDR5 memory. The "brick wall" I guess is the speed limit.

      Part of it is to do with the socket not being able to handle signals that fast and needing external termination, and part of it is to do with the physical layout of the sockets needed for dual channel RAM. It's basically impossible to place both sockets an equal distance from the CPU, so one has traces (wires on the PCB) that are longer than the other.

  • This is a likely a security nightmare.

    Howso?

    Easy. Some piece of memory has a secret in it.
    An attacker wants to find out that secret.
    So, what they do is put potential parts of something secret into some memory. If it partially matches, then it will partially compress.
    The *size* of the amount of memory consumed thus tells you (the attacker) whether you partially guessed right or not.
    Very quickly, this can end up discovering something pretty big pretty fast.

    Notably, this could work from a browser running javas

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by grmoc ( 57943 )

      Or... not, because when you RTFA the 'compression' is not apparently bit/byte compression, and refers to the way the chip is put together

  • ugh (Score:4, Informative)

    by nyet ( 19118 ) on Monday January 16, 2023 @10:01PM (#63214936) Homepage

    Unfortunate choice of acronyms, as CAM is already taken *and* refers to a existing type of memory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

  • CAMM is good and bad... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sarusa ( 104047 ) on Monday January 16, 2023 @10:18PM (#63214994)

    Pros (compared to SODIMM):
    - Better performance possible
    - Much thinner
    - Much smaller PCB footprint needed

    Cons (compared to SODIMM):
    - Larger in width and height
    - More expensive than SODIMM
    - Different capacities are different physical sizes! Unlike SODIMM, where everything is one form factor, a 64 GB CAMM might be much larger than a 32 GB CAMM, which means you now have to worry about the available space when upgrading.
    - Only one CAMM slot, so you can't easily just add another 16 GB - you will have to entirely replace the 16 GB CAMM with a new 32 GB CAMM (assuming it will even fit, see the point above).

    So we'll see if it takes off in anything but Dells. It's certainly not a foregone conclusion that it'll replace SODIMM.

    • Re:CAMM is good and bad... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @05:55AM (#63215726) Homepage Journal

      The downsides are somewhat mitigated though.

      - More expensive that SODIMM. For now, and the alternative is soldered on memory in most cases. High end Ryzen chips need fast RAM to perform well, and SODIMMs are just not capable of offering it, so you either have to have slow RAM or RAM soldered to the motherboard. In the latter case, the manufacturer will surely fleece you on it.

      - One one CAMM slot. In practice, if you want high performance RAM, you need to buy matched pairs anyway now. Mixing and matching is hit and miss, and usually means not running the RAM at higher speeds (e.g. disabling XMMP).

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        The other thing with CAMM is no standardized sizes - it's fixed in one dimension but the other dimension can grow and as needed - sort of like NVMe SSDs which have several form factors (the most common is 2280, but there are many that can only do 2230 or so).

        It's good in that you can have cheaper larger modules, if they'll fit than SO-DIMMs, but you run into the problem where laptops might not have enough space for the modules you want to install.

    • It's certainly not a foregone conclusion that it'll replace SODIMM.

      Something will replace SODIMM. The hope is that it isn't soldered on RAM as is currently looking most likely.

  • The fact you need a complete replacement is one reason I can see so many chip makers like the design. With my present computers if I need a bit more memory I can just add a simm. Example: I have a 16GB machine and I upgraded it with an additional 16 GB simm. With this design I have to buy an more expensive 32 GB part, and since I am already going so far I probably try to future-proof myself by buying a 64 GB part. Result, the ram makers are happy, Happy, HAPPY.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Artemis3 ( 85734 )

      That's true, but how often do you have all your slots full with modules? (two 8g run faster than a single 16g with so-dimm) For those people its the same, you need to replace them all. And since this is laptops and other mobile devices, i assume it will seldom be changed after purchase. The thin laptops are barely serviceable, no longer having access doors, you need to remove the whole cover to reach the inside. Some are already soldering the RAM and not bothering with slots anymore. Well since the industry

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Junta ( 36770 )

      Of course, in 99% of laptops, if you had an empty socket it means you have lower performance. Unless you had a two slot per channel arrangement, which is almost unheard of in modern laptops.

      But then again, if you are using SIMMs still, you probably should upgrade to something from the current century.

      However the fact that the form factor is not fixed, and that different modules may be different sizes... Sounds like potential trouble. Will have to see if it settles in like M.2 (you *can* have multiple size

    • Generally you don't add a SIMM these days as they went out in the 2000s. You can add a single SO-DIMM however if your laptop only had a single stick of memory, it means it was running in single channel for half the performance. When it comes to upgrading your laptop beyond that, the recommendation is to replace both sticks so instead of buying a single CAMM you should buy 2 matched SO-DIMMs. The RAM makers care less about you buying one or 2 modules as they care about how much money you are spending.
  • I would think that this CAMM would not be able to replace SO-DIMMs for a few years. We have MANY small form factor PCs, (and even some servers), that use SO-DIMM memory.

    Beginning with DDR4 SO-DIMMs, non-ECC & ECC pin outs on the socket side were the same. So it was the memory purchaser that could decide what to buy, if the CPU supported ECC memory. (Unlike the DDR3 SO-DIMMs which you had to wire the socket(s) up for either non-ECC or ECC, and that forced what memory you could buy.)

    It does appear tha

    • I would think that this CAMM would not be able to replace SO-DIMMs for a few years. We have MANY small form factor PCs, (and even some servers), that use SO-DIMM memory.

      You can still buy new 72 pin SIMMS

      https://www.analogic.co.uk/new... [analogic.co.uk]

      There are even some artisanal places which "support" new 30 (not even 72) pin SIMMs, though some assembly required in some cases.

      On the grounds that nothing goes away, yep, it isn't going away.

      Regardless of those answers, only time will tell if this works out.

      Almost certainly

  • I suppose that there are market segments where HBM, flip-mounted and chiplet approaches of various sorts don't fit. Must be getting smaller though.

  • Have they looked inside notebooks recently? It's a small motherboard in a slim case and lots of empty space. This sandwitch style doubles the needed height. It should rather go on the side somehow.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Junta ( 36770 )

      Well, mostly they'd probably keep soldering memory down on most of those laptops. This would be for the thicker systems that have a bit of room and would rather have the real estate available for having as much room on the board as possible. They likely also permit it to be over the edge of the board, though it wouldn't buy them thin-ness, just cost savings on circuit board size.

      To do as you say, they'd need to always leave room in the chassis for a memory board and one of their objectives was to have *mor

  • I instantly hate this new design and here's why.

    With SO-DIMM your laptop normally comes with a single RAM stick and you can trivially add an extra one.

    You can remove the existing module and put it in another laptop. Nothing is wasted.

    With this design you always have a single module and you always replace it. This means a lot of e-waste and a lot more profits for RAM OEMs, and a lot more expenses for the end customer.

    They should have split it in half, so that you could use it as SO-DIMM.

    It's better

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Megane ( 129182 )

      Then don't buy a new laptop with a large module. It's hardly a waste when you replace 16GB with 128GB a few years from now. Anyone who has been working with computers for a long time should have a bunch of completely useless 1GB and 2GB SODIMMs lying around, and 16GB CAMMs are going to be the same thing someday. Have you ever put a 16GB module together with a 2GB? I wonder if you will be able to buy with 8GB CAMM from the factory.

      But I will admit that this system probably won't handle an empty position ver

    • With SO-DIMM your laptop normally comes with a single RAM stick and you can trivially add an extra one.

      That is a cost vs performance trade-off. Yes a laptop is cheaper with a single SO-DIMM but it was running channel for half the memory performance. And when it comes time to upgrade beyond that, you should buy matched pairs.

      You can remove the existing module and put it in another laptop. Nothing is wasted.

      And why can't you do that with another laptop that uses CAMM in the future? This is more an argument against change as you could say the same thing about not using DDR5 when you have a DDR4 machine.

      With this design you always have a single module and you always replace it. This means a lot of e-waste and a lot more profits for RAM OEMs, and a lot more expenses for the end customer.

      You should upgrade DIMMs in pairs so instead throwing away 1 CAMM module, you throw away 2

  • When Schnell told JEDEC about its new SCAMM* they told him it was too obvious, they suggested him to drop the S.

    *SCAMM = Super Compression Attached Memory Module

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