17-Year-Old Designed Electric Motor Without Rare-Earth Magnets (smithsonianmag.com) 92
"A 17-year-old [named Robert Sansone] created a prototype of a novel synchronous reluctance motor that has greater rotational force -- or torque -- and efficiency than existing ones," writes Slashdot reader hesdeadjim99 from a report via Smithsonian Magazine. "The prototype was made from 3-D printed plastic, copper wires and a steel rotor and tested using a variety of meters to measure power and a laser tachometer to determine the motor's rotational speed. His work earned him first prize, and $75,000 in winnings, at this year's Regeneron International Science and Engineering Fair (ISEF), the largest international high school STEM competition." From the report: The less sustainable permanent magnet motors use materials such as neodymium, samarium and dysprosium, which are in high demand because they're used in many different products, including headphones and earbuds, explains Heath Hofmann, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Michigan. Hofmann has worked extensively on electric vehicles, including consulting with Tesla to develop the control algorithms for its propulsion drive. [...] Synchronous reluctance motors don't use magnets. Instead, a steel rotor with air gaps cut into it aligns itself with the rotating magnetic field. Reluctance, or the magnetism of a material, is key to this process. As the rotor spins along with the rotating magnetic field, torque is produced. More torque is produced when the saliency ratio, or difference in magnetism between materials (in this case, the steel and the non-magnetic air gaps), is greater.
Instead of using air gaps, Sansone thought he could incorporate another magnetic field into a motor. This would increase this saliency ratio and, in turn, produce more torque. His design has other components, but he can't disclose any more details because he hopes to patent the technology in the future. [...] It took several prototypes before he could test his design. [...] Sansone tested his motor for torque and efficiency, and then reconfigured it to run as a more traditional synchronous reluctance motor for comparison. He found that his novel design exhibited 39 percent greater torque and 31 percent greater efficiency at 300 revolutions per minute (RPM). At 750 RPM, it performed at 37 percent greater efficiency. He couldn't test his prototype at higher revolutions per minute because the plastic pieces would overheat -- a lesson he learned the hard way when one of the prototypes melted on his desk, he tells Top of the Class, a podcast produced by Crimson Education. In comparison, Tesla's Model S motor can reach up to 18,000 RPM, explained the company's principal motor designer Konstantinos Laskaris in a 2016 interview with Christian Ruoff of the electric vehicles magazine Charged.
Sansone validated his results in a second experiment, in which he "isolated the theoretical principle under which the novel design creates magnetic saliency," per his project presentation. Essentially, this experiment eliminated all other variables, and confirmed that the improvements in torque and efficiency were correlated with the greater saliency ratio of his design. [...] Sansone is now working on calculations and 3-D modeling for version 16 of his motor, which he plans to build out of sturdier materials so he can test it at higher revolutions per minute. If his motor continues to perform with high speed and efficiency, he says he'll move forward with the patenting process.
Instead of using air gaps, Sansone thought he could incorporate another magnetic field into a motor. This would increase this saliency ratio and, in turn, produce more torque. His design has other components, but he can't disclose any more details because he hopes to patent the technology in the future. [...] It took several prototypes before he could test his design. [...] Sansone tested his motor for torque and efficiency, and then reconfigured it to run as a more traditional synchronous reluctance motor for comparison. He found that his novel design exhibited 39 percent greater torque and 31 percent greater efficiency at 300 revolutions per minute (RPM). At 750 RPM, it performed at 37 percent greater efficiency. He couldn't test his prototype at higher revolutions per minute because the plastic pieces would overheat -- a lesson he learned the hard way when one of the prototypes melted on his desk, he tells Top of the Class, a podcast produced by Crimson Education. In comparison, Tesla's Model S motor can reach up to 18,000 RPM, explained the company's principal motor designer Konstantinos Laskaris in a 2016 interview with Christian Ruoff of the electric vehicles magazine Charged.
Sansone validated his results in a second experiment, in which he "isolated the theoretical principle under which the novel design creates magnetic saliency," per his project presentation. Essentially, this experiment eliminated all other variables, and confirmed that the improvements in torque and efficiency were correlated with the greater saliency ratio of his design. [...] Sansone is now working on calculations and 3-D modeling for version 16 of his motor, which he plans to build out of sturdier materials so he can test it at higher revolutions per minute. If his motor continues to perform with high speed and efficiency, he says he'll move forward with the patenting process.
Re: Well known design (Score:5, Interesting)
Yet it is often someone "naive", who isn't held back by preconceived notions that are no longer applicable in a changed world, that make discoveries or inventions. Besides, since this person is obviously a lot smarter than you, the old adage comes into play: those who say it cannot be done should never interrupt the one doing it.
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Yet it is often someone "naive", who isn't held back by preconceived notions
That almost never happens. Very few fields are revolutionized by people who don't understand them.
If you really believe that it "often" happens, can you provide a few examples?
since this person is obviously a lot smarter than you
That isn't clear. All we know is that this guy claims to have a system that can do wonderful things, but no one else can replicate it, and he can't tell us how it works because it is a secret.
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since this person is obviously a lot smarter than you
That isn't clear. All we know is that this guy claims to have a system that can do wonderful things, but no one else can replicate it, and he can't tell us how it works because it is a secret.
Plus you can't automatically assume someone who didn't enter the same competition isn't as smart.
Re: Well known design (Score:5, Insightful)
I can and will assume that a random someone replying on slashdot in a way that disparages scientific research is a lotnless intelligent than someone doing actual research and engineering, winning a prize in a real competition. Presumptuous? Perhaps but quite easy to check if the GP tells slashot of the scientific advances they made in their lifetime.
Re: Well known design (Score:5, Funny)
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I can and will assume that a random someone replying on slashdot in a way that disparages scientific research is a lotnless intelligent than someone doing actual research and engineering, winning a prize in a real competition. Presumptuous? Perhaps but quite easy to check if the GP tells slashot of the scientific advances they made in their lifetime.
You don't have to know much about a subject to know to ask questions about efficiencies, etc.
eg. I don't know much about solar panels but I know solar roadways are a dud, and will always be a dud no matter how much "research" is done or how clever the people are.
Similarly: Charging phones at a distance with ultrasonics. Sure it will work, we even have tech demos, but it will never be practical or efficient.
The question to ask isn't whether this motor can work or not (it probably can). The question is whethe
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Oh, yeah... my doubts:
My main doubt is that if you need to power the rotor then you need some sort of brushes. They'll wear out, ie. this motor will need constant maintenance.
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they're called "slip rings" and are much better and more reliable than old style sparky commutators. BMW is deploying front motors with these. The slip rings have similar technology as conventional alternators, and this is not usually a big failure mode now.
They don't need to switch current, electronics can do that with much better precision .
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Hell, quite often when someone does come up with a novel idea, many years later it turns out the idea had unforeseen negative consequences.
fossil fuels
tetraethyl lead
chlorofluorocarbons
thalidomide
cryptocurrency
Polychlorinated biphenyls
DDT
Considering this track record, I'm guessing if this motor isn't just a scam, it will probably summon Cthulhu.
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The fact that a novel idea ended up having significant negative consequences does not erase the positive impacts that arose from that novel idea. I doubt you believe the industrial revolution was a net negative overall, or that refrigeration didn't provide significant positive benefits to society.
So hopefully you're wrong about Cthulhu [yimg.com]; perhaps it'll turn out to be the Staypuff Marshmallow Man [zenfs.com].
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The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
Spotted the Green! Because feudal oppression, plagues and starvation were so much better than what we have now.
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> The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
So stop eating and using computers - don't be hypocritical.
Re: Well known design (Score:2)
I only use computers. Eating then seems like a bad idea for health and the environment.
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Could you clarify this? My naive understanding is that the vast majority of humanity, including the poorest, live in a cornucopia compared to pre-IR civilization.
Re: Well known design (Score:1)
The organized religions of the world called. They want their conservatism back.
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fossil fuels
tetraethyl lead
chlorofluorocarbons
In your same line of thinking, which twentieth-century person did the most to destroy the environment. I nominate Rachel Carson.
Re: Well known design (Score:4, Informative)
Midgley's legacy has been scarred by the negative environmental impact of leaded gasoline and Freon. Environmental historian J. R. McNeill opined that Midgley "had more adverse impact on the atmosphere than any other single organism in Earth's history", and Bill Bryson remarked that Midgley possessed "an instinct for the regrettable that was almost uncanny". Fred Pearce, writing for New Scientist, described Midgley as a "one-man environmental disaster."
I don't think they printed nearly enough copies of Silent Spring for Ms. Carson to steal the prize.
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The CFC problem was not testable in the lab, and otherwise they looked like excellent systems with high energy efficiency and negligible biological technology. They looked like a winner.
The CFCs were only known to be a problem because of the discovery of unusual reactions happening at unusual conditions on ice crystals high in the atmosphere. This unexpected discovery, decades later, earned a Nobel Prize.
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"...because it is a secret..."
and he is publicly disclosing it while keeping it secret because he hopes to patent it in the future!
Naive doesn't begin to describe it, and "smarter than you" definitely doesn't. But hey, at 17, Tesla is working with him on their products, right?
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ignore the Tesla comment, misread that part
Re: Well known design (Score:1)
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For the US he still has a grace period after public disclosure, won't protect him outside the US, but the US is still the most important market in the world.
The publicity might get him some ambulance chasing patent lawyers bidding against each other to do it for a possible cut in revenue. Then he has a patent for something which likely won't be commercially viable, but if it is he still wins big. If it happens he could have won bigger, if it doesn't happen he could have been out all the money spent on paten
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The exposure itself could help him land a job after he gets an engineering degree in whatever he goes for. Outside of that, maybe not much but that's still pretty cool.
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>but the US is still the most important market in the world.
lol!
Re: Well known design (Score:2)
can you provide a few examples?
Yeah. [blogspot.com]
Re: Well known design (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it's more a question of the substantial claims; basically the "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" principle.
Claiming more torque density is a reasonable claim. Claiming things like 37% increases in efficiency, however, is less reasonable.
The subtlety may be in the way the efficiency was quoted - it said "more efficient at this RPM" which is a fairly meaningless metric; what you want to do is compare efficiency as some normalizing parameter, like "efficiency at max power" or "efficiency at the point where BEMF is 90% supply voltage".
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What we really want to know in order to have the full picture is whether it's still efficient at higher RPMs. But efficiency at low RPMs is very relevant, as it happens every time you take off from a stop.
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I'd replace my condenser fan motor if the kid wants to experiment.
What kind of motor does it use? If it's a single phase AC induction motor you're probably at around 60-65% efficiency. A good 3 phase motor can get into the mid 90s. If you don't have access to 3 phase, you can get inverters with efficiencies well into the 90s. IOW with careful selection of parts you might be able to hit the low 90s of efficiency, which is quite a substantial improvement.
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The subtlety may be in the way the efficiency was quoted - it said "more efficient at this RPM" which is a fairly meaningless metric; what you want to do is compare efficiency as some normalizing parameter, like "efficiency at max power" or "efficiency at the point where BEMF is 90% supply voltage".
The inventor himself said as much, saying If his motor continues to perform with high speed and efficiency he'll move forward with the patenting process.
doubtful (Score:2)
Re: doubtful (Score:2)
Re: doubtful (Score:2)
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The only "old adage" I see in your post is "if your argument is too weak to attack the presentation, then attack the author."
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I'm sure all the Ph.Ds judging this competition were clueless about past research and were completely hoodwinked by this high schooler's approach. The list of first-time experimenters coming up with new and novel ideas is too long to list here.
Reading SD should have given many examples of innovative ideas thought of by young people without a huge lab or research grants. Those are for after the initial breakthrough or idea.
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I'm sure all the Ph.Ds judging this competition were clueless about past research and were completely hoodwinked by this high schooler's approach.
Or the other students all did things like baking soda volcanoes, potato batteries, and generators connected to hamster wheels. You don't actually have to come up with a novel invention to win a science fair, you just have to demonstrate a good understanding of the principle you're demonstrating and, as I already said, make a good show of it. Solar fricken' roadways, man! Woah!
The idea that some kid in his parents' garage outsmarted all those big evil research companies is a great trope in Hollywood, but
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The list of first-time experimenters coming up with new and novel ideas is too long to list here.
Claiming something is too common to list is a great way to avoid providing any actual examples.
Re: Well known design (Score:1)
Re:Well known design (Score:5, Informative)
> I'm sure all the Ph.Ds judging this competition were clueless about past research and were completely hoodwinked by this high schooler's approach.
Or maybe this is a science fair for high school students, and so projects were judged in the context of a science fair for high school students and not, say, in the context of selecting the next Nobel laureate.
Here's the judging criteria [windows.net]. (PDF). From the document: "Please note that both team and individual projects are judged together, and projects should be judged only on the basis of their quality." (emphasis mine)
You literally get more points for presentation than creativity. What's being judged is less the project itself and more the process of researching, executing, evaluating, and presenting the project. You know, just like a high school science fair.
I put this somewhere just a step or two below the level as one of those teenagers who built a functional fusion reactor in their garage, but several steps above the ones that "invent" yet another Peltier module-based machine that "generates potable water from thin air!" Clever? Capable? Inventive? Has a bright future ahead of them? Certainly! Breakthrough genius? Eh... not for this. Maybe some day, though.
Also I can't find any info on the actual judges but it seems having a PhD is not a strict requirement, so there's that...
=Smidge=
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He hasn't even decided its worth a patent, so seems he's pretty even headed about it.
For the moment it made him 75k$ and massive self marketing, more than good enough for the time investment even if he spends a year or two more on it and it fails.
Half his youth? (Score:2)
So, he started this when he was eight and a half years old?
I'd say he did a prety good job as a kid. Particularly since we don't know the details of his novel modification. Even if this goes nowhere, his experience gained will be valuable in a future EE field.
"Invention" (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds like he rediscovered the universal motor [wikipedia.org]. If I had to take a guess, the reason why BEVs instead use permanent magnet motors is because batteries are expensive and heavy, so maximizing efficiency is a higher goal than worrying about the proportionately insignificant costs of the magnets.
These days, invention is less about actually coming up with a novel or practical solution to a problem and more about putting on a good show for investors so they'll throw some money your way (see "Solar Roadways" and the various scam "portable air conditioner" devices, as examples). Seems like this kid has got that part figured out.
Re:"Invention" (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds like he rediscovered the universal motor.
No it doesn't. Here, let me quote THE FIRST line of TFS:
A 17-year-old [named Robert Sansone] created a prototype of a novel synchronous reluctance[...]
Does that sound like a universal motor to you? If your answer is "yes" then you do not know enough to have any, yet alone strong opinions on the article. Go read this article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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You missed this part:
Instead of using air gaps, Sansone thought he could incorporate another magnetic field into a motor.
Now, exactly how he's adding that second magnetic field is part of the secret sauce that he doesn't want to talk about, but I'll bet he's using copper windings on the rotor. Is that motor design starting to look familiar now?
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Now, exactly how he's adding that second magnetic field is part of the secret sauce that he doesn't want to talk about, but I'll bet he's using copper windings on the rotor. Is that motor design starting to look familiar now?
Yes, it's starting to sound a little like a DC excited synchronous motor. Or maybe a squirrel cage reluctance motor.
https://www.nidec.com/en/techn... [nidec.com]
Like I said, weird that people with only the most shallow knowledge of motor technology seem to have the strongest opinions on this.
Re: "Invention" (Score:3)
There are ways of inducing a fixed magnetic field on a rotor with no rotor windings or slip rings. My guess is he figured this out.
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When I see mention of electric aircraft I think of the heat that is coming off all the electrical components and wonder if this won't turn out like the development of the jet engine, they found out with turbocharger and a piston engine that if we only put a fan in front and back of something that burns fuel then we'd get something real simple to move air. Electric planes might just use big heaters like an afterburner to push the air out that was cooling the batteries, and the heat off the batteries is runn
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Can you meet me in the middle? (Re:"Invention") (Score:2)
I find reports of children driven to suicide because of the over the top news on global warming far more frightening. We can't let the kids be kids? Tell them about global warming when they get to high school, or maybe college, or some age at which their minds have developed to process it. There's no future if the next generation is driven to insanity over this.
We have people working on battery electric airplanes and "green" fuels for existing jets in case that doesn't work. Solar panels and windmills a
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This is nothing compared to my flat-earth motor.
Re:Too little power (Score:5, Informative)
Argh! why do people who have no knowledge of motors keep posting dumb shit to this thread. Your post is so fractally bad it probably qualifies as not even wrong.
Reluctance motors are A TYPE of synchronous motors.
Very low power synchronous motors are used in clocks (in countries where the grid is phase controlled). That is true and completely irrelevant.
Hugely powerful synchronous motors exist. The momentum of a powerstation genset acts as a motor if the grid frequency starts to lag. See also synchronous condensers. Instantaneous power can go into the gigawatts. Big, high power mains frequency synchronous motors are rare, but do exist.
All those are irrelevant to small reluctance motors, which already exist in very high powers:
https://drivesncontrols.com/ne... [drivesncontrols.com]
They are synchronous to the switching speed, just like permanent magnet DC motors, so they can run at any speed because the switching is electronically controlled.
Electric Motor Without Rare-Earth Magnets (Score:4, Informative)
Agreed, terrible headline (Score:5, Informative)
Switched reluctance motors are not a new invention by any stretch of the imagination. They were not invented by a 17-year-old in the year 2022, but rather by W. H. Taylor back in 1838 [wikipedia.org]. They are used extensively in industry today. Here's a 6-min video introducing them, how they work, and where they are most useful and efficient. [youtube.com]
The headline should read something like "17-year-old Invents Motor with 33% Improvement to Efficiency".
Re:Agreed, terrible headline (Score:5, Informative)
The headline should read something like "17-year-old Invents Motor with 33% Improvement to Efficiency".
Actually, the huge jump in efficiency is due to the kid comparing his own home-built motor with and without the modifications enabled, not against commercially produced motor designs.
If you want an idea why this really doesn't represent any potential gains in real-world efficiency, don't take my word for it, here's an article about Tesla's motor efficiency [pcmag.com]. Relevant part below:
As Electrek reports(Opens in a new window), both the Model S and X use AC induction electric motors, which achieve an efficiency of 93 percent. However, for the more recently developed Model 3, Tesla switched to using permanent magnet reluctance motors, which achieve an efficiency of 97 percent. Higher efficiency means more range from the same batteries.
Tesla is already getting 97% efficiency out of their permanent magnet motors, and their older induction motors which didn't use permanent magnets were a not-too-shabby 93% efficient. There's literally not much to improve upon here. Battery technology is still the weakest link in this chain.
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Tesla is already getting 97% efficiency out of their permanent magnet motors, and their older induction motors which didn't use permanent magnets were a not-too-shabby 93% efficient. There's literally not much to improve upon here.
Yep. If you're at 97% and you make a 33% improvement, now you're at 98%.
Reluctance drives (Score:3)
He did not invent this from the scratch. Optimizing these motors types is tricky and it will turn out if the improvements he did hold in reality under the real design constraints. Still, probably a cool work and one could would probably hire him into an engineering team off the spot (If de does his Bachelor, which he will do quickly, i am sure).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
File a provisional (Score:2)
He should file a provisional patent application immediately to establish priority.
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There's patent insurance which can help in this situation. Perhaps more of a problem is the tens of thousands of dollars it costs just to obtain a patent.
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Sadly that's not how patents work; if a patent is awarded the burden is on the challengers, not the holder.
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Why is that sad? Would you say the same for other property rights? Your ability to be safe in your own home?
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Wow, there's someone who knows nothing.
At very least, a patent of this nature could be sold for a lot more than "the paper it is written on."
Re: File a provisional (Score:3)
We risk getting stuck in our ow
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He then jokingly concluded that we just prevented the invention of the wheelbarrow.
If scrutiny (not even criticism) from a bunch of internet strangers can stop someone from pursuing an idea, they probably wouldn't have succeeded anyways.
Just because we do not want to be dissapointed and do not want to fail.
More like we've seen these kinds of stories way too many times and it turns out to be an existing idea that was rediscovered and they still couldn't overcome the negatives that prevented the original from widespread adoption. Not to mention these competitions are usually a sham. It's usually parents or some expert assigned to each student that's actually d
Re: File a provisional (Score:2)
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Where did your boss get money for patents as a high school student?
Re: File a provisional (Score:2)
Reluctant about reluctance (Score:1, Funny)
I wonder what the capacitive diractance of this device is, and whether it reduces sinusoidal depleneration as well as the retroencabulator does.
overheating is usually a red flag (Score:4, Insightful)
When something is being described as having "breakthrough efficiency", and yet is subject to overheating, I can't help but question where all that heat is coming from? Heat is usually a big symptom of inefficiency.
I realize motors tend to run warm, but if your motor is melting, maybe you're overlooking some inefficiency in your design?
Not a problem, my boy. (Score:1)
He simply uses a coal powered chiller to stop the overheating.
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I thought it was clear that the heat was coming from the plastic bearings. The heat is proportional to speed, it may be linear or may be not. The heat dissipation rate could have some nonlinear relationship to temperature, which means things that get too hot just keep getting hotter faster. It is possible that by just fixing the bearings the speed problem is solved. Even if it is not then a 3000 RPM motor that is more efficient than previous options is still quite valuable.
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He did print the structural parts in a 3d printer. I'm not sure there are many electrical motors that could be made significantly from plastic without deformation cascading to failure?
That aside, and I'm no EE but...how is a motor without rare earth magnets that big a deal? Weren't ALL motors built without rare earth magnets until relatively recently?
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Motors that use stronger permanent magnets can produce more torque for a given amount of power input. (they're more efficient) And depletion of rare earth materials is a common concerns, so if you can make a motor without rare earth materials that's ALSO very efficient, that's a "have your cake and eat it too" kind of thing.
Patent it already (Score:2)
If his motor continues to perform with high speed and efficiency, he says he'll move forward with the patenting process.
If it is truly a novel design, it should be patented for his protection. He can always amend the patent or apply for additional ones for any improvements to the initial design. I do not understand why he does not file immediately - unless the whole thing is actually a farce.
Re: Patent it already (Score:2)
can we give up rare earth magnets (Score:2)
It's an easy bet that any motor design engineer can tell you that rare earth magnets are there because they provide greater efficiency.
There is very little doubt that we could start using motors WITHOUT rare earth magnets tomorrow.
The question is, with hundreds of millions of motors out there, giving up a few percent in efficiency would not be a trivial increase in power consumption.
Also too, the kid should learn how to use HFSS or COMSOL or something. A genius building prototypes to prove something is so
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We build prototypes because someone could simulate something and then someone comes along with, "Sure, it works in theory, but how does it work in practice?"
Simulations aren't any good unless compared to the real world. I've heard people argue against weapons testing because the simulations are so good. Should we send weapons to battle without at least trying one out first? But we can't verify the simulations are correct unless we test what they simulated in the real world. Then we can improve the simul
Applying the technology (Score:1)
Did he use a ambifacient lunar waneshaft? (Score:2)
Perhaps he also figured out a way to include six hydrocoptic marzelvanes, which no one has done yet. Also it sounds like He avoided the old constraints where the main winding was of the normal lotus-o-delta type placed in panendermic semiboloid slots in the stator,