Honda Hits 3D Printing Sites With Takedown Orders Over Honda-Compatible Parts (thedrive.com) 120
A writer for The Drive reports that "Recently, I noticed a part that I made for my Honda Accord was removed from Printables, the newly rebranded 3D printing repository offered by Prusa.
"There seemed to be no rhyme or reason for it, but I didn't think anything else about it...until reports of a mass deletion started popping up on Reddit." All models referencing the word "Honda" posted prior to March 30, 2022, were seemingly removed from Printables without warning. These included speaker brackets, key housings, hood latches, shifter bushings, washer fluid caps, roof latch handles, and my trunk lid handle — a part not offered on 10th generation Accords sold in the U.S. at all. In fact, many of the removed parts had no Honda branding but were just compatible with Honda vehicles. As it turns out, Prusa says it was issued a takedown notice from Honda and removed all 3D models that referenced the brand.
"I can confirm to you that we have received a letter from a lawyer representing Honda, informing us that we were required to remove any model which used 'Honda' in the listing, the model itself, or one of several trademarks/logos also associated with Honda," a Prusa spokesperson told The Drive in an email. "This will also be related to the naming of the files it self (sic), as for Honda this would be considered as a violation of their trademark/patents." A Prusa employee responded to a post on the company's forums, noting that Honda sent a "huge legal document" that covered every model that the company wished to have deleted. The document reportedly included items that did not have Honda logos, but also specific items with certain shapes and dimensions — like a washer fluid reservoir cap, for example.
A response from another employee was posted suggesting other sites that host 3D models were also sent a similar takedown notice.
"There seemed to be no rhyme or reason for it, but I didn't think anything else about it...until reports of a mass deletion started popping up on Reddit." All models referencing the word "Honda" posted prior to March 30, 2022, were seemingly removed from Printables without warning. These included speaker brackets, key housings, hood latches, shifter bushings, washer fluid caps, roof latch handles, and my trunk lid handle — a part not offered on 10th generation Accords sold in the U.S. at all. In fact, many of the removed parts had no Honda branding but were just compatible with Honda vehicles. As it turns out, Prusa says it was issued a takedown notice from Honda and removed all 3D models that referenced the brand.
"I can confirm to you that we have received a letter from a lawyer representing Honda, informing us that we were required to remove any model which used 'Honda' in the listing, the model itself, or one of several trademarks/logos also associated with Honda," a Prusa spokesperson told The Drive in an email. "This will also be related to the naming of the files it self (sic), as for Honda this would be considered as a violation of their trademark/patents." A Prusa employee responded to a post on the company's forums, noting that Honda sent a "huge legal document" that covered every model that the company wished to have deleted. The document reportedly included items that did not have Honda logos, but also specific items with certain shapes and dimensions — like a washer fluid reservoir cap, for example.
A response from another employee was posted suggesting other sites that host 3D models were also sent a similar takedown notice.
Just like the music industry (Score:5, Insightful)
Doesn't this sound like the way the music industry reacted to Napster and the internet back in the 1990s?
Instead of looking at this as a challenge to their revenues, why not embrace it and license 3d-printer files for some of the low-criticality plastic parts that would otherwise require a visit to the dealership?
If Honda (and other automakers) had their heads screwed on properly they'd see 3D printing as a new revenue source and a way to make their products more desirable to the marketplace.
I am pretty sure this will happen (just as the music industry got around to embracing the internet and now make most of their profits from it) but it'll take a generation of change before we see it :-(
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A: Coming into the dealership.
B: Selling the part to you at a markup.
Not to mention, the only place you can really get the parts is through a dealer network. Honda probably has some licensing or whatever fees with the dealerships that constrict the flow of parts to them specifically, and the dealers would not want to pay such a fee for parts you could get elsewhere. Exclusivities would be violated. Ergo, Honda did what they could to enforce their exclusivity agreements.
Sh
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Weigh that against the bad publicity they get by doing stuff like this. I can't imagine more than a tiny percent of people are actually 3D printing their own Honda parts. My guess is that all it takes is a couple of people to get annoyed with Honda and decide they won't buy their next car from them to completely offset any potential financial losses.
This sort of thing just seems somewhat short-sighted.
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Weigh that against the bad publicity they get by doing stuff like this. I can't imagine more than a tiny percent of people are actually 3D printing their own Honda parts. My guess is that all it takes is a couple of people to get annoyed with Honda and decide they won't buy their next car from them to completely offset any potential financial losses.
This sort of thing just seems somewhat short-sighted.
I just crossed Honda off of my ethical manufacturers list. Never would have bought one of their cars anyway, but now their dirt bikes, generators, outboards and garden equipment are on my do not buy list as well.
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I don't know who is really left. Toyota?
In Massachusetts we passed a law which made it mandatory for manufacturers to give independent repair shops all diagnostic information - the stuff that is routinely sent to dealerships through onboard computers etc.
The compliance of multiple manufacturers has been to disable the reporting by lobotomizing the onboard computers. You can't buy subarus or kias in mass that have remote start now, for instance. Plus they don't give you maintenance alerts. It's hella fun. ht [wired.com]
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It is a trademark issue, so they have to do something.
However it would perhaps indeed made more sense to sent a law letter, "demand takedown" and offer them to keep them online for a symbolic fee.
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> They make more money by you:
But why would I buy a Honda that doesn't have 3D printed parts when I can buy a Toyota that does?
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However, they make less money on the fact that I, having bought Hondas since the 80s....will not be buying another one with this policy.
Absolutely fucking stupid, but as you say, in the short term monetarily beneficial.
They may also find the dealership model isn't gonna be viable for that long
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And the really wonderful part about printed parts is that they're often weaker than the actual molded parts they replace. So... you have some real possibilities here:
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Not only won't they stop it, they'll drive them to pirate sites.
Re:Just like the music industry (Score:4, Interesting)
This is the way Marvel/DC and Disney/Marvel/Lucasfilm send takedowns to eBay. It's actually a violation of eBay policy to reference anything as "(brand name)-compatible" in the title. You either are selling the authentic item, in which you can use the brand name, or you are selling an aftermarket item which should be called "OEM", and not reference the brand anywhere except in a "fits" list in the description.
And if Honda, or any other Japanese car manufacturer were genuinely interested in keeping counterfeits from being produced on 3D printing sites, they would instead make the items available on their own site under a "DIY repair" list.
Keep in mind that it's a hot piracy market for car service manuals (both dealer manuals, and aftermarket manuals) as well, and vehicle manufacturers often send take downs to eBay (and presumably Amazon) because of piracy of their manuals, so these 3D models for 3D printers seems like more of the same.
One way that 3D printers can avoid the infringement entirely is to strip any branding off the part. This is pretty much how "OEM" (aka counterfeit) stuff remains on eBay and Amazon. It's not an infringement to simply go "fits (product)" in the description.
Re:Just like the music industry (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, but this is the issue. It's not a trademark violation to say "I have a radio knob that fits a 1999 Honda Accord". Yes, "Honda" and "Accord" are trademarks, but that's *NOT* what trademark law covers. I cannot build a car and say "This car is a Honda Accord". I can sell accessories for Honda Accords and mention that the accessories work with Honda Accords. I cannot brand my accessories as "Honda", but I can absolutely say that they work with Honda Accords.
Imagine if Microsoft went after all the software sellers that sell Windows software and say "You can't actually say this works with Windows". It makes no sense.
I really wish the EFF would get involved here. This idea needs to be curb-stomped.
Re: Just like the music industry (Score:2)
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If you are searching for guitar parts (switches, knobs, pick guards, replacements necks, etc.) you will commonly see them sold as fitting "T-style" or "S-style" guitars, instead of fitting Stratocasters and Telecasters. One vendor told me it is specifically to avoid potential lawsuits.
The scope of this problem would seem to extended beyond the EFF's realm. To really "curb-stomp" this kind of thing might need a broader movement towards IP reform.
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By the same token, people can re-upload their non-logo'd designs as e.g. "Type H" compatible.
It seems to me like there might be a reasonable distinction between products with "Honda" in their name, and having "compatible with Honda" in the body copy, although I'm sure Honda drew no such distinction. Still, given trademark law, that's where I'd personally draw it. Yes, I know no one asked. I know people put stuff in the name because of crap search tools on sites.
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I also want a sane healthcare system in the US so perhaps my expectations are misplace
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I get your point but "Works with Windows" was actually a Microsoft trademark (may be still) and you (used to) have to pay a licence to them and/or be part of a certification programme to use that phrase but my understanding was it was also fairly easy to qualify for. I also think it was for hardware rather than software. What you can freely say without any kind of licence about your hardware/software is that it is "windows compatible".
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an OEM what
either you enjoy going through 9000 listings for "Hood latch." one by one or you're about to open your mouth and respond with something that they still consider infringing because discovery is still easily accessible
not because "the law says X"; because it's easily accessible
their goal when preventing the use of identifiers is to prevent identification, not because the law says X
Re: Just like the music industry (Score:4, Informative)
OEM means original equipment manufacturer. OEM Honda parts are made by Honda (or their vendors). It's the opposite of aftermarket.
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OEM also means 'made by the same people who supply the auto manufacturer'. For instance, if the manufacturer uses a certain model of Denso alternator, then that Denso alternator would be the OEM part.
Indeed, this is the usual meaning of 'OEM'.
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THIS is the kind of garbage that tends to make one not want to buy from asshat corporations that pull this crap. I guess they just want to be sure that you are forced to buy their overpriced replacement parts. 3D printing parts makes a tremendous amount of COMMON SENSE. Guess Honda is lacking in this sense.
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What are your thoughts on John Deere tractors?
One big difference (Score:2)
There is a big difference between what Honda has apparently done here vs what the music companies did with Napster etc.
It's perfectly legal to sell a gas cap for Honda vehicles.
Or a gas cap compatible with the Honda Accord.
What Honda seems to have done is *illegal* restraint of trade.
On the other hand, Napster was totally illegal. It's *not* legal to publish copies of Justin Bieber songs. The record companies had the law in their side. Honda here is on the wrong side of the law. That's different.
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On the other hand, Napster was totally illegal. It's *not* legal to publish copies of Justin Bieber songs. The record companies had the law in their side. Honda here is on the wrong side of the law. That's different.
I'm pretty sure no Justin Bieber song ever traversed the Napster network.
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The hamsterdance theme song is a sped up version of "Oo-de-lally" sung by Roger Miller from Disney's animated Robin Hood movie.
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Correction to the above--same movie, same artist, but the actual song name is "Whistle Stop." [fandom.com]
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>It's *not* legal to publish copies of Justin Bieber songs.
not merely illegal, but generally considered to be a crime against humanity, and cases belli . . .
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The petrol tank cap is probably a bad example. There are probably design standards that need to be met for it to be safe.
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Doesn't this sound like the way the music industry reacted
No, it sounds completely different.
The music industry said:
You can't have this.
What Honda seems to be saying is:
You can print all the aftermarket 3D parts you want, but you can't label them as "Honda" parts.
It's a trademark issue. Your part description can still say, "This fits a Honda Civic". Just like when you go to the car parts store.
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It's a trademark issue
You obviously didn't read the article, but did you at least read the summary?
How is there a "trademark issue" with a washer fluid reservoir cap with no Honda markings? Quit carrying water for the abusive multinational corporation.
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How is there a "trademark issue" with a washer fluid reservoir cap with no Honda markings?
The file said it was "Honda". The file is the problem, not what's in the file, in that example.
Copyright violation??? (Score:5, Informative)
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This seems very likely, although still not a good look for Honda. I had a buddy in the 90's with the initials CBR, he went by DJ CBR and Honda sent him a letter, kind of ridiculous, but I guess they are serious about the integrity of their name.
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Unrelated industries didn't stop Monster cables from going after a mini-golf course with monster in the name.
I don't think they won, though.
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Good. Monster cables are full of shit anyway, in my opinion.
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Some of the more famous cases were Apple promising Apple that they wouldn't get into the music business (the irony) and Digital Equipment Corp promising to not make vacuum cleaners. Another interesting one is "Hobby Lobby", one of which finally just rebranded to "Hobby Express".
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Re: Copyright violation??? (Score:2)
Yep, Monster Cable is not allowed to sell energy drinks.
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Mr Pibb (Score:2)
And Doctor Pepper the famous podiatrist who tried to sell his own brand of athlete's foot powder.
Re:Copyright violation??? (Score:4, Informative)
It's fair use. How do you think third parties can get away with producing things like vacuum cleaner bags that list the compatible models on the packaging and advertising? Honda would get laughed out of the courtroom if they even made it that far. It's sad that the Printables folks just bent over and took it, and bad for the world of 3D printing in general. And a big fuck you to Honda for pulling this crap.
"Generally, trademark fair use occurs when an accused infringer can show (1) it did not use the mark as a trademark; (2) the use is descriptive of its goods or services; and (3) it used the mark fairly and in good faith."
https://www.americanbar.org/gr... [americanbar.org]
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It's sad that the Printables folks just bent over and took it
Sad yes, but what alternative do you propose? Printables is a side gig for hobbyists, not a main business for Prusa Research. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to spend a massive amount on the resulting legal bills to fight this.
Re:Copyright violation??? (Score:4, Informative)
This is about Honda abusing the legal system as a bludgeon. They know parts that fit Honda or say for Honda aren't trademark violations. They also know the sites they slapped can't afford the sort of prolonged legal action Honda's legal department might unleash.
Re: Copyright violation??? (Score:2)
Just file it as HÃna compatible.
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Trademarks violations require some level of confusion. There is no way that there is any confusion here. Honda isn't selling downloadable 3D printer files. No-one downloading the files thinks they are getting a file from Honda.
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As I think it would be a completely reasonable thing for a car manufacturer to do, technically, if not commercially, I think there is the potential for confusion.
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If I saw a downloadable 3D printer file for a Honda car part labelled Honda, I might very well have to check to see if this was officially licensed or not.
It seems like there's a valid argument to be made that if they use the name "Honda" in the name of the product/file that someone could reasonably be confused, because the average person is dumb.
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But the average person isn't 3D printing a part.
Right now, a quick search for Honda for a vehicle I have (old motorcycle) is a float level gauge. Are most people who have the knowledge to (a) 3D Print and (b) rebuild a carburetor going to really believe this is an OEM tool?
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In the USA, reverse engineering is totally legal and widespread.
Totally legal except where covered by design [investopedia.com] or utility patent or trademark.
The article mentions Honda trademarks, but it's also possible some of the files infringed upon patents as well. Without specific examples from the takedown, it's hard to say.
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printables folded, honda won (Score:1)
printables already dropped everything possibly even a little iffy maybe like a hot potato, so honda won this one and they'll point right here when sending cease-and-desist letters to the next one. Then other car brands will follow suit. No home-printed car-compatible parts for you.
So printables effectively let this market get crushed. It's done. Next round, if anyone still wants to stand up against honda, will be that much harder. Even if it can be argued it's "fair use", therefore this C&D letter is m
the wheel turns... (Score:2)
Remember when Honda was one of the hip car companies? I guess some lawyer set them straight.
I wonder if Prusa has to take down parts for the Schmonda cars....
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Remember when Honda was one of the hip car companies?
No.
Re: the wheel turns... (Score:1)
The brand thst can not be named (Score:4, Funny)
The comunity is tihght kitted enough that you can say "Trunk lid handle from the brand that can not be named" and people will instantly know that IT IS honda AND evoke bad feelings about the brand. In no time Honda will do a u-turn, beg makers to rename the files as honda, and swing a lot of money to influencers to make more 3d-printed honda parts.
And about parts with certain parts with no honda branding but certain "dimensions": F-U these are not for Honda, these are for "Make Auto Parts" "Denso" "Teneco" , etc... ;-)
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Trunk lid handle from that Japanese asshole brand
FTFY :)
Re:The brand thst can not be named (Score:4, Interesting)
Trunk lid handle from that Japanese asshole brand
FTFY :)
You have to be subtle. That moniker will instigate more litigation and fighting from "That brand that can not be named"
Read the art of war. If you Outnumber your enemy 100 to one, and give them no way to flee, every enemy soldier will turn around and fight like a 1000. If you give them an escape route, they will escape without fighting.
Besides, many asian cultures (Japan included) have a concept of "saving face". You need to give them an outlet to do it...
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Trunk lid handle from that Japanese asshole brand
Most Honda shareholders are American.
Most Honda cars are made in America.
If you buy a Honda in America, it is more likely to be made in America than if you buy a car from Ford, Chrysler, or GM.
So is Honda really a Japanese company?
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Trunk lid handle from that Japanese asshole brand
Most Honda shareholders are American.
Most Honda cars are made in America.
If you buy a Honda in America, it is more likely to be made in America than if you buy a car from Ford, Chrysler, or GM.
So is Honda really a Japanese company?
Those shareholders you mention delegated the day to day running of the company on professional managers, and the selection of said managers on a Board of Directors.
Most of those professional managers, and most of the board are Japanese.
The workers at the factories in America (and elsewhere) that you mention have little say on the actions of the legal, marketing and PR teams. Meanwhile, the Japanese professional managment has a lot of power over those departaments actions, as well as over the livelyhoods of
Re: The brand thst can not be named (Score:2)
How self centered can an American be? Less than one fifth of all Hondas produced are sold in America.
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>"Trunk lid handle from the brand that can not be named"
quite a relief.
It's been *really* hard these last couple of decades to get the parts I need to keep my 1940 Voldemort V-12 on the road . . .
And the places that *did* carry anything just had thousands of listings for "the part that must be named." !
Really? (Score:2)
specific items with certain shapes and dimensions — like a washer fluid reservoir cap, for example.
Nah, you can go fuck yourself. I'll be scraping anything with 'honda' in the name or description for archiving and reuploading elsewhere.
I don't even own a honda.
Time to sue Honda (Score:2)
Surely they can just use shorthand? (Score:3)
I had actually just looked at buying a Honda (Score:2)
Re: I had actually just looked at buying a Honda (Score:1)
My Honda parts are shit (Score:5, Insightful)
But my Fonda parts work great.
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Pretty sure that Honda is wrong here (Score:4, Informative)
Patents cannot be construed to apply here because the parts in question are not particularly distinctive from other manufacturers parts except for the possibility of a logo, certainly not distinctive enough to qualify for patent protection
The only remaining argument they have is on the grounds of trademarks. If the parts they were issuing take-down orders for did not contain a Honda logo, then the only possible infringement remaining could be on the use of the name.
Except it's not actually a trademark infringement to simply say that something is compatible with something else when you aren't misrepresenting yourself as an official dealer for whatever you are claiming compatibility with. I can see that they might face a problem with a model billed as a "Honda fluid reservoir cap", because by putting the name in front, it appears to describe the item directly, and carries the connotation of being some kind of an official part. However, there can not really be any such kind of trademark infringement with a description like "fluid reservoir cap compatible with Honda vehicles". In this case, the trademark is referring only to vehicles that are made by Honda, and not the reservoir cap itself, and it would be considered nominative use.
The only reason that Honda is getting away with this is because Prusa doesn't evidently happen to feel like putting up a fight about it.
How is this different from a generic part... (Score:3)
...with a description that says "fits Honda Accord?" Which they don't appear to be going after.
Thanks for the info (Score:3)
Would this be something for the EFF or even ACLU? (Score:2)
This seems like something the EFF could sink their teeth into.
3D torrenting (Score:2)
Soon thepiratebay.org will be a popular .stl destination
Fuck 'em all (Score:2)
Banning look-alike (Score:3)
I think that would be illegal in most countries. Plus, banning look-alike products is another way to attack right-to-repair.
Re: Banning look-alike (Score:3)
Incase you haven't heard, the car industry hates right to repair and aftermarket parts.
They want you to believe buying an OEM part from the manufacturer that supplies to parts to the car maker is somehow less not as safe and less reliable than buying the exact same part for twice the price from a dealer.
They want to comply with the minimum required obd standards possible and hide the rest of their diagnostic systems behind proprietary codes and protocols, so independent mechanics need to either buy the deal
Scratch Honda from my shopping list (Score:3)
Re: Scratch Honda from my shopping list (Score:2)
I wonder if that one lost sale cost them more than all those 3D printed parts.
Something set this off (Score:2)
It's not like 3d printing repositories are real and right now for example you can find similar Honda items on Thingiverse. Maybe other sites will receive similar notices but I have to imagine some particular item caught a lawyers eye and set this off and they just went after everything "just to be sure". Maybe something like an engine part or something they found safety critical? Maybe there has been an accident or failure they received with a 3d printed part and they got spooked about it.
I'm not saying H
This happened to FlightGear too (Score:4, Informative)
Can someone get a protest going on? (Score:2)
As a Honda owner, I would like to complain to the company about this.
Adnoh (Score:2)
Let's start a campaign (Score:2)
Re: Let's start a campaign (Score:2)
You wouldn't download a car would you? (Score:2)
A heralding of heritage parts? (Score:1)
"Helpful Honda People" (Score:2)
Helpful Honda, indeed. /after the warranty expired/ to suggest I replace the overhead light/sunglass holder/garage doo
I own a couple of Hondas, but have no plans to do it again. Their reputation for quality seems to have dwindled - I had fewer problems with my 19-year-old 2002 Trailblazer (a Chevy!) than with my 2013 Honda. The Odyssey can't seem to hold its alignment chewing up tires, and the front brakes warp super easily. The overhead lights stopped working, and after the dealer "fixed" it twice, decided
No legal leg to stand on (Score:2)
IMHO, this would run afoul of the Lexmark ruling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org].
Fight for the Right to Repair (Score:2)
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I'm pretty sure that if I download an STL and print it on my own printer, I will be able to guess that it isn't an official Honda part.
Re: I'm a little on the fence about this issue. (Score:2)
I think that there are court rulings also regarding permitted third party spare parts for vehicles.
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No worse than when JimBob ties it down with an old piece of rope he found in the garage.
But these were not things like a hood latch. Think blanks for the instrument panel, a handle for the trunk lid, that sort of thing.
For tools, the best answer using home 3D printer is print the tool and use it for lost PLA casting.
Re: Now I am a strong believer in Darwin (Score:1)
It specifically says in tfs good latches
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It's hard to be certain since Honda caused most things to be pulled down, but a search for "Honda hood latch STL" revealed a number of hits for hood release handles and levers mis-labled as "hood latch". Also a few prop rod holders similarly mis-labled. So no actual hood latches.
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Came here for the Honda .stl torrent links, not seeing any yet...
Re: Easy solution. (Score:2)
There are a lot of fun things you can do.
Put links in many different places, it would be a whack-a-mole game.
Or links to torrent sites, then make sure the links are listed in public court order documents and then refer to that document.
There are a number of things to do to make the system eat itself.