Rare Form of Sulfur Offers a Key To Triple-Capacity EV Batteries (newatlas.com) 60
Engineers at Drexel University have made a breakthrough they say takes [lithium-sulfur batteries] closer to commercial use, by leveraging a rare chemical phase of sulfur to prevent damaging chemical reactions. New Atlas reports: [T]here is one problem that scientists keep running into, which is the formation of chemical compounds called polysulfides. As the battery operates, these make their way into the electrolyte -- the solution that carries the charge back and forth between the anode and cathode -- where they trigger chemical reactions that compromise the battery's capacity and lifespan. Scientists have had some success swapping out the carbonate electrolyte for an ether electrolyte, which doesn't react with the polysulfides. But this poses other problems, as the ether electrolyte itself is highly volatile and contains components with low boiling points, meaning the battery could quickly fail or meltdown if warmed above room temperature.
The chemical engineers at Drexel University have been working on another solution and it starts with the design of a new cathode, which can work with the carbonate electrolytes already in commercial use. This cathode is made from carbon nanofibers and had already been shown to slow the movement of polysulfides in an ether electrolyte. But making it work with a carbonate electrolyte involved some experimentation. The scientists attempted to confine the sulfur in the carbon nanofiber mesh to prevent the dangerous chemical reactions using a technique called vapor disposition. This didn't quite have the desired effect, but as it turned out, actually crystallized the sulfur in an unexpected way and turned it into something called monoclinic gamma-phase sulfur, a slightly altered form of the element. This chemical phase of sulfur had only been produced at high temperatures in the lab or observed in oil wells in nature. Conveniently for the scientists, it is not reactive with the carbonate electrolyte, thereby removing the risk of polysulfide formation.
The cathode remained stable across a year of testing and 4,000 charge-discharge cycles, which the scientists say is equivalent to 10 years of regular use. The prototype battery the team made featuring this cathode offered triple the capacity of a standard lithium-ion battery, paving the way for more environmentally friendly batteries that allow electric vehicles to travel much farther on each charge. The research was published in the journal Communications Chemistry.
The chemical engineers at Drexel University have been working on another solution and it starts with the design of a new cathode, which can work with the carbonate electrolytes already in commercial use. This cathode is made from carbon nanofibers and had already been shown to slow the movement of polysulfides in an ether electrolyte. But making it work with a carbonate electrolyte involved some experimentation. The scientists attempted to confine the sulfur in the carbon nanofiber mesh to prevent the dangerous chemical reactions using a technique called vapor disposition. This didn't quite have the desired effect, but as it turned out, actually crystallized the sulfur in an unexpected way and turned it into something called monoclinic gamma-phase sulfur, a slightly altered form of the element. This chemical phase of sulfur had only been produced at high temperatures in the lab or observed in oil wells in nature. Conveniently for the scientists, it is not reactive with the carbonate electrolyte, thereby removing the risk of polysulfide formation.
The cathode remained stable across a year of testing and 4,000 charge-discharge cycles, which the scientists say is equivalent to 10 years of regular use. The prototype battery the team made featuring this cathode offered triple the capacity of a standard lithium-ion battery, paving the way for more environmentally friendly batteries that allow electric vehicles to travel much farther on each charge. The research was published in the journal Communications Chemistry.
In Mice (Score:3, Insightful)
They're not wrong. Well, not more than usual.
Must is very good at drawing attention to himself, and he does start all sorts of companies that do something.
In contrast, we've seen fluff pieces about papers promising super-duper extra-special totally-perfomant batteries, and then... nothing. Maybe it's in use, maybe not, can't tell. That makes for lots of scepticism when talking about yet another supposed battery breakthrough. Or even any supposed other energy storage breakthrough.
Worse, the few times I tr
Re:Fake news as it is not from Tesla (Score:5, Insightful)
Well... that's what most of the EV press and forums will say. Most of them rely on regurgitating endless stories about Tesla and Elon for clicks and income. Other EV makers are doing many things that are better than Tesla, but those things hardly get any coverage other than a slagging off from the cult.
Personally, I wish the inventors of this continue and it gets widely adopted however, there is part of me that fears that it will get bought up and quietly forgotten until Elon announces a huge breakthrough... (As he takes another page from the P.T. Barnum manual of snake oil sales)
You do realize that it's a completely different level from what Tesla et al are doing? This here is some guy at a university who got something cool to work in his test tube. That's nice, and that's how cool things often start, but there's still a LONG way to finished product you can put in the car. You need to figure out how to affordably make this stuff in bulk for one thing. Measure its stability under actual work conditions. Figure out safety issues (if you think battery fires are nasty now, just wait until they get 3 times the energy density). You know, doing the engineer's part of this invention. And that is where EV companies, Tesla included, come in.
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(if you think battery fires are nasty now, just wait until they get 3 times the energy density).
A bit like gasoline fires then?
Oh, wait, gasoline has 50 times the energy density of batteries so not quite that bad.
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(if you think battery fires are nasty now, just wait until they get 3 times the energy density).
A bit like gasoline fires then?
Oh, wait, gasoline has 50 times the energy density of batteries so not quite that bad.
No. Gasoline has no energy. Gasoline PLUS AIR have 50 times the energy density, but you don't carry gasoline premixed with air, do you, genius? And the speed at which they can mix is the nice limiting factor on the speed of release of this energy during a fire. Not so with batteries, which already carry everything needed for the fire in one package. And not to mention, you can't douse them with water either.
Re: Fake news as it is not from Tesla (Score:5, Insightful)
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And not to mention, you can't douse them with water either.
Actually, in the case of Lithium- ion batteries you certainly can douse them with water.
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
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No idea what you mean with "douse", you certainly are not supposed to extinguish a lithium ion battery fire with water. Depending how close you are, and how big the battery: that is plain suicide.
https://www.upsbatterycenter.c... [upsbatterycenter.com]
Re:Fake news as it is not from Tesla (Score:5, Informative)
Uhh, someone with more credibility than you begs to differ:
"USE WATER TO FIGHT A HIGH VOLTAGE BATTERY FIRE. If the battery catches fire, is exposed to high heat, or is generating heat or gases, use large amounts of water to cool the battery. It can take between approximately 3,000-8,000 gallons (11,356-30,283 liters) of water, applied directly to the battery, to fully extinguish and cool down a battery fire; always establish or request additional water supply early. If water is not immediately available, use CO2, dry chemicals, or another typical fire-extinguishing agent to fight the fire until water is available."
From "Model 3 Emergency Response Guide", Page 23, https://www.tesla.com/sites/de... [tesla.com]
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Depends on the type of Battery I would say ...
But good source for the Tesla models.
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you certainly are not supposed to extinguish a lithium ion battery fire with water...
https://www.upsbatterycenter.c... [upsbatterycenter.com]
Lithium battery != lithium-ion battery [powertronbatteryco.com]. EVs like those being discussed use lithium-ion batteries. Your link and the example video it embeds are clearly referring to lithium batteries, like what you might use in a camera.
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Both contain: lithium ... oops.
Or do you think someone captured a lithium ion solitairly and put it into a battery? Poor ion ...
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Both contain: lithium ... oops.
And table salt contains sodium, which also reacts violently with water. When was the last time you took safety precautions while adding salt to soup or boiling water you were prepping for pasta? I’d wager never, because the chemistry is vastly different between Na and NaCl.
Likewise, the construction of the two types of batteries and how they use lithium are wholly different. A lithium battery is single-use and has a lithium metal anode, hence why it reacts violently with water. A lithium-ion battery i
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A lithium-ion battery is rechargeable and doesnâ(TM)t have lithium metal anything. Its lithium is actually a lithium salt suspended in a solvent selected to limit its ability to react with water. Sure, it will burn, but not like a lithium battery will, hence why the advice for putting it out is different.
Well, I linked an advice that clearly stated: do not use water to douse a burning lithium ion battery. And I agree with that advice. If you don't, up to you.
Main point is bottom line: unless you know e
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Well, I linked an advice that clearly stated: do not use water to douse a burning lithium ion battery.
No, you didn’t. Your linked advice is for lithium batteries, it even says so right in the headline, hence why I pointed out that you had confused the two battery chemistries. Reread your own link if you don’t believe me. Lithium-ion batteries are never once mentioned.
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Oh, and regarding “better safe than sorry”, when wouldn’t you know which you have? The applications for these batteries are entirely different. Lithium batteries have no place in EVs because they can’t be recharged. You tend to see lithium batteries get used in flash cameras, smoke detectors, wireless mics, and other electronics that are either long-lived or that place high demands on their batteries. Lithium-ion, in contrast, is rechargeable and used in everything from EVs to phones
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For fuck sake: a lithium ion batter y is NOT SAVE TO HIT WITH WATER dumbass. Depending on size it will explode. Just like a magnesium fire etc.
What happened to basic chemistry education in schools?
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My fault then :D
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My fault then :D
Hah, 'sall good. Glad we were able to get it sorted out.
a lithium ion batter y is NOT SAVE TO HIT WITH WATER [...] Depending on size it will explode. Just like a magnesium fire etc.
As is hopefully clear at this point, that is not what will happen. The lithium in a lithium-ion battery is typically lithium hexafluorophosphate—the aforementioned lithium salt—in most lithium-ion batteries, which doesn't react with water like the lithium metal you'd find in a lithium battery. The big concern with lithium-ion batteries is that the organic solvent the lithium salt is dissolved in can catch fire, eventually resulting in a the
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No. Gasoline has no energy. Gasoline PLUS AIR have 50 times the energy density, but you don't carry gasoline premixed with air, do you, genius? And the speed at which they can mix is the nice limiting factor on the speed of release of this energy during a fire
Burnt is burnt.
I've personally seen three or four gasoline cars burning at the side of the road. The flames seemed pretty darn fierce to me.
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No. Gasoline has no energy. Gasoline PLUS AIR have 50 times the energy density, but you don't carry gasoline premixed with air, do you, genius? And the speed at which they can mix is the nice limiting factor on the speed of release of this energy during a fire
Burnt is burnt.
I've personally seen three or four gasoline cars burning at the side of the road. The flames seemed pretty darn fierce to me.
Makes a world of difference to the people inside who either get some time to escape before they are cooked alive, or not.
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Other EV makers are doing many things that are better than Tesla
Which EV makers?
I will grant that Ferrari has beaten Tesla in the luxury market, but for normal people who can't buy cars that cost as much as a house, Tesla is still the best.
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And the low end where Chinese brands run circles around them.
There are no good low end EVs.
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Yeah, and the e-Mustang. Some of these cars look good, but none of them are low-end.
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They are low end for an EV
Yeah.
Another trend I noticed is that EVs seem to be increasing in cost from a few years ago. So not a great trend.
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Tesla doesn't cost as much as a house? (Score:2)
I live in "affordable housing" you ignorant clod!
Battery capacity (Score:4, Insightful)
Whenever we hear about new research about battery capacity, there are always gales of complaints. I think these stem from there never being a huge step change, but come on, look at modern batteries! They have come on amazingly far in the last 20 years. They are much lighter, have much higher discharge rates and recharge rates, much better capacity and we have the tech to make them last even when they get a hammering.
All of these improvements add up. My special offer Makita drill would be alien technology on 2002, and today it's not just in existence but eminently affordable.
The steady stream of improvements make a difference.
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they have one: they use DRM to prevent new operating systems from installing on older machines, so you end up with a machine with no possibility of security upgrades.
Re: Battery capacity (Score:2)
Ok.. (Score:3)
How many Watt hours per kilogram does it have? Not interested in mah/g if the voltage is low.
Re:Ok.. (Score:4, Informative)
How many Watt hours per kilogram does it have?
Lithium-sulfur batteries [wikipedia.org] have an energy density of 550 Wh/kg. This research doesn't change that. Despite the misleading headline, this new research is about extending the lifespan, not increasing the energy density.
Re:Ok.. (Score:5, Informative)
Well it increases the density of car batteries by using Lithium-sulfur instead of what is being used now.
Surprise, it's 3x as much.
It does that by making the lithium-sulfur practical to use, by extending the lifespan.
If only the people who could understand the summaries were the same people who post so often...
Re:Ok.. (Score:4, Informative)
550 Wh/kg is about three times what Li-ion gets.
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A Tesla 3 Long Range battery pack weighs 480 kg. At 550 Wh/kg, that would be 264 kWh. It's actually apparently more like 82 kWh. So that sounds a lot like three times the energy density.
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350 Wh/kg
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You must be new here.
All that guy can do is to do a web search, paste some shit, and hope it was right.
How many can we take? (Score:2)
Quote: Cheaper batteries with more energy (Score:4, Interesting)
"Lithium-sulfur batteries hold a lot of promise when it comes to energy storage, and not just because sulfur is abundant and less problematic to source than the cobalt, manganese and nickel used in today's batteries. They may offer some significant performance gains, too, with the potential to store several times the energy of today's lithium-ion batteries. But there is one problem that scientists keep running into, which is the formation of chemical compounds called polysulfides."
Replace a gas engine with an electric motor. (Score:2)
The maintenance expense for an electric motor is FAR less. No need for oil changes and spark plug replacements. No need for piston ring replacements.
If we develop healthy ways to generate more electricity, that would reduce the pollution.
At present it is not healthy to live in a city, because city dwellers a
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If Lithium-Sulfur batteries are far cheaper and have much more energy, people who need car engine maintenance can replace the gas engine with an electric motor, and the Lithium-Sulfur batteries.
Plus the word "sulfur" will help to salve the egos of the ugga-wugga crowd. "It runs on devil farts!"
Better link from the research university itself (Score:5, Informative)
The article from Drexel University (where the research was done) is better, and not so laden with ads:
https://drexel.edu/now/archive... [drexel.edu]
Re:Better link from the research university itself (Score:4, Informative)
Thanks, and here's a link to the actual paper in Nature which has loads of details;
https://www.nature.com/article... [nature.com]
The -monoclinic phase of sulfur discovery is interesting but it looks a very long way from commercialization. They make the compound in an autoclave which "consisted of a sulfur reservoir at the bottom and a perforated disk for placing electrodes at the top. After 24h the autoclave was cooled to room temperature slowly in a span of 6–8h."
And "we utilized the scraped residual material deposited on the top wall of our autoclave for cathode fabrication".
So a lot of mass manufacturing challenges, you won't be making gigawatt hours of this any time soon.
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Yeah, I hope they figure it out, but it sounds like they lucked into something they don't quite understand yet. So the possible outcomes are:
-With more knowledge, we discover the material is not viable in the real world even if you can make it (time-based degradation, atmospheric temperature variations impacting it, something)
-It carries on as-is, in which case the process to manufacture this form of sulfur remains highly impractical
-Focused research in this area uncovers a more practical manufacturing pro
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Charge cycles != years (Score:3, Interesting)
I’ve owned plenty of lithium chemistry batteries that died of old age before they were anywhere near their rated cycle life. It seems every time there’s an article about BEV batteries, they always rate the lifespan in miles or charge cycles, completely ignoring the fact that batteries also degrade with age.
The average age of a car in the USA is approximately 12 years old. A battery that lasts only 10 years isn’t going to cut it.
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What makes you think the batteries degrade with age?
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This https://www.protoolreviews.com... [protoolreviews.com]
and https://www.large.net/news/88u... [large.net]
Tesla has arguably the best battery management, but you need to keep your Tesla automobile plugged in. That scene in Woody Allen's "Sleeper" where he and Diane Keaton find an abandoned VW Beetle and they start it right up is not going to happen with an electric car stored in a barn for decades let alone just kept in a garage unplugged for 6 months.
Long-range lithium-battery electric cars haven't been around long enough to fin
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A gasoline car sitting in a barn for a year isn't going to start either; the gas will have gone to shit.
Diesel does have a longer shelf life, but not decades.